From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Feb 1 02:41:38 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Feb 1 02:43:53 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Naming in Python In-Reply-To: <11FD719A-7369-11D9-A715-000A95CE9FAC@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0IB700HG0M52IA@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > From: Anna Ravenscroft [mailto:rev_anna_r@yahoo.com] > On Jan 30, 2005, at 18:25, Arthur wrote: > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > >> > >>> Maybe a break-out session on Wittgenstein at PyCon ;) > >>> > >>> Art > >> > >> Well, at least you and I should talk, maybe over a beer. > > > > Beer. > > > > I'll have to try to remember my ID ;) > > > > Look forward to it. > > > > Art > > > I vote for an "Open Space" on Wittgenstein at PyCon. There are a few of > us interested in this... or at least let us know when you're going for > the beer... ;-) Not sure we are allowed to vote ;) And I think we need to find a Python angle. Did Wittgenstein anticipate Python? Does Python obsolete Wittgenstein? Maybe a beer would be best. Students buy. That's me, for one. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Feb 1 04:02:35 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Feb 1 04:04:44 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Another comment on readibility. Message-ID: <0IB700MYQPVT0Y@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> For Programming Python 2nd edition Page 107 """ As we've seen, unlike C there is no "main" function in Python - when we run a program we simply execute all the code in the top-level file, from top to bottom. """ The compiler is reading exactly as we do. Writing to accommodate the compiler, is, as a by-product, writing to accommodate a human reader. Obvious enough. But it seems worth saying because its easy to lose sight of these obvious factors that are probably more at the root of making Python a comfortable environment/experience than all the listcomps and the like put together. And once again decorators are, in my mind, an exception. Reading down - something is being transformed, before it exists. Not meaning to imply that exceptions to rules are not sometimes well justified. Especially when they are well identified as such. Which I happen to think decorators are. No beefs, really. Just observation. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Feb 1 15:46:45 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Feb 1 15:48:54 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Huh? Message-ID: <0IB800KYHMHGZM@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Continuing thoughts on one guy's cognitive relationship with Python. That there is in addition to the day-to-day Python, the occult Python, of __getattr__ and __metaclass__, and wicked games to be played with introspection - all as essential to me as the surface level ergonomics. Or otherwise put, how could it otherwise feel *real* if there was not a layer to it that was less accessible, but one felt assured, more powerful. Kind of like being awake. Art From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org Wed Feb 2 02:14:22 2005 From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels) Date: Wed Feb 2 02:14:42 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Naming in Python In-Reply-To: <20050129162008.DC9DF1E4004@bag.python.org> References: <0IB3006F649ZDZ@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20050129162008.DC9DF1E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: Kirby Urner wrote: [ lots of fun and good stuff ] > class Function: > def __init__(self, f): > self.f = lambda x: f(x) > ... Here you missed a simplicity bet (one of my two big pet peeves): class Function: def __init__(self, f): self.f = f ... For the curious, the other peeve is: def function(... if expression: return True else: return False instead of: def function(... return expression --Scott David Daniels Scott.Daniels@Acm.Org From simon at arrowtheory.com Wed Feb 2 13:17:54 2005 From: simon at arrowtheory.com (Simon Burton) Date: Wed Feb 2 02:31:41 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] the Python Visual Sandbox Message-ID: <20050202121754.0faa5112.simon@arrowtheory.com> >From the PyCon abstracts: #21. Intuition and Python Programming - the Python Visual Sandbox Michael Weigend / Holzkamp-Gesamtschule Witten, Germany When you write a Python program, search for semantic errors, proof the correctness of a function or just talk about programming, you use intuitive models of information processing. An intuitive model is a mental concept which is simple and self evident and needs no further explanation. Usually these concepts can be visualized. Intuitive models can be useful or they can be misleading. Sometimes they are unconscious. The Python Visual Sandbox (PVS) is a collection of interactive multimedia applications ? usually games, especially designed for programming novices. They contain more than a hundred animations which represent intuitive models including typical misconceptions. The purpose of the PVS is two fold. First of all it is a research tool to find out, what intuitive concepts Python programmers use in different contexts. Secondly it is a learning device which can be integrated in lesson plans. This contribution focuses on the learning/teaching aspect. holy cow! Simon. -- Simon Burton, B.Sc. Licensed PO Box 8066 ANU Canberra 2601 Australia Ph. 61 02 6249 6940 http://arrowtheory.com From urnerk at qwest.net Wed Feb 2 05:57:12 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed Feb 2 05:57:13 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Naming in Python In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050202045712.D6B171E4004@bag.python.org> Hi Scott: > Here you missed a simplicity bet (one of my two big pet peeves): > > class Function: > def __init__(self, f): > self.f = f > ... > Yes, good one. > For the curious, the other peeve is: > > def function(... > if expression: > return True > else: > return False > > instead of: > > def function(... > return expression Also good. Thanks for sharing your peeves. If you get any more pets, please share them too. Kirby From bvande at po-box.mcgill.ca Wed Feb 2 06:07:41 2005 From: bvande at po-box.mcgill.ca (Brian van den Broek) Date: Wed Feb 2 06:08:20 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Naming in Python In-Reply-To: <20050202045712.D6B171E4004@bag.python.org> References: <20050202045712.D6B171E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <4200601D.80803@po-box.mcgill.ca> Kirby Urner said unto the world upon 2005-02-01 23:57: > Thanks for sharing your peeves. If you get any more pets, please > share them too. > > Kirby > Hi, I'd just like to mention the page and encourage peeved people to help the wiki grow. Best to all, Brian vdB From urnerk at qwest.net Thu Feb 3 05:43:11 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu Feb 3 05:43:15 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] VPython on Alien Planet In-Reply-To: <20050202045712.D6B171E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20050203044313.8917C1E4003@bag.python.org> Greetings earthlings -- For those of you with too much time on your hands, I thought I'd alert you to a recent thread on Synergeo, a Yahoo eGroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synergeo/ In this thread, one John Brawley, probably older than you think, tries to wrap his head around VPython cylinders. He's self-taught in Python, and is in no way a CS major. He cares about a pet theory, which involves geometry and visualization: so VPython to the rescue. Except the cylinder stuff seems to make no sense. A guy named Anton, and myself, trying to explain the meaning of "axis" in cylinder(pos=(x0,y0,z0), axis=(x1,y1,z1), radius=0.1) -- it's *not* the same thing as "destination point." I think John is confused in part because of working with POV-Ray, which also has a cylinder command, but simply asks for start and end points. Way simple. Zooming back, the bigger picture here is: we've got a bunch of people, finding each other through the Internet, talking about geometry and other stuff, and using Python as a tool, perhaps without formal training or any CS background. It's a means to an end, and easy enough to master to get some real work done, even if you're an old guy living with a bunch of cats in some run down trailer (that's a caricature, not a true-to-life portrait of Mr. Brawley). In other words: computer programming for everyman (a more literary, and gender-biased, rendition of the CP4E meaning). Kirby PS: speaking of Yahoo eGroups, and Wittgenstein (a few days back), I'm also pretty active here, in case anyone wants to jump in and join the chatter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wittgenstein-dialognet/ From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Feb 6 05:00:47 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Feb 6 05:00:50 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 In-Reply-To: <20050130073636.21CC51E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20050206040048.A355D1E4006@bag.python.org> Mostly just played with POV-Ray today, including projected images of award winning master works, even an animation. Python angle is to take a standard scene out of POV-Ray, use triple-quote syntax and then pick some aspect of the scene to change using substitution from a dictionary, i.e. myscene = """ blah blah %(key1)s blah %(key2)s """ Mydict = { "key1":value1, "key2":value2 } h = open('thefile.pov','w') h.write(myscene % mydict) h.close() except a bit more structured than that (using functions with parameters and stuff -- no class definitions today, purely procedural). This built of "madlibs" we did last week, also involving triple quote syntax. Gave them lots of time to just explore, play around. I'd walk around and help with debugging. I find a laser pointer is useful for pointing at syntax on the monitor, without having to lean over to point and smudge. They developed some interesting scenes, using cylinders and such (another Python template for that). They were already pretty comfortable with XYZ, and could adjust to POV-Rays setup: -Z coming out towards you, +X to the right. http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/geomformats/pov/s_57.html#s02_02_01_01 Two of the seven missing today, don't know why. Attendance isn't mandatory in any case. We also got into texturing i.e. making our cylinders of gold or brass, on a floor of stone. Some of the scenes looked surreal in a Dali kind of way, especially when applying the fish-eye camera. I'd thought I'd be getting to GCD and EA (Euclidean Algorithm) today, but I've been showing 'em eye candy and promising more right brained activities. Today was a day to make good on those promises. POV-Ray is awesome. Kirby From pramode at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 11:31:38 2005 From: pramode at gmail.com (Pramode C E) Date: Sun Feb 6 11:31:41 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python control of a PC interfacing equipment Message-ID: Hello, The Phoenix project aims to bring low cost PC based experimental Physics education to the classroom - read about it here: http://linuxgazette.net/111/pramode.html Regards, Pramode -------------- From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Feb 6 14:49:03 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Feb 6 14:51:16 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python control of a PC interfacing equipment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0IBH00EDYT5CVU@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > Hello, > > The Phoenix project aims to bring low cost > PC based experimental Physics education > to the classroom - read about it here: > > http://linuxgazette.net/111/pramode.html > > Regards, > Pramode Yeah for the Phoenix project. There is actual evidence that this kind of approach to science education works well. Of course the extent to which actual evidence means much is problematic - as we are in the realm of education, and technology, after all. Low cost certainly sounds like a nice idea. And real scientists are themselves always working within budgetary constraints. And the history of science is all about the rigging up of apparatus from available materials to test hypotheses. And like just about everything else in life, one learns science best by doing it. Not virtually, but actually. I like the fact it grows out of efforts of someone doing work at a Nuclear Science Center. One, because it is the effort of a working scientist. Secondly, because the state of the art of scientific apparatus - particularly in this kind of field - is so advanced (and expensive) that it would be easy to despair that this kind of approach could give students a shot at doing science. A working scientist is concluding otherwise here, and doing something about it. The virtual 3d laboratory with avatars scurrying about in white smocks is another approach, of course. I guess until the evidence is in - I'm being kind, because the evidence is in and its just a matter of who wants to look at it - its just a matter of taste. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Feb 6 16:20:23 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Feb 6 16:24:08 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 In-Reply-To: <20050206040048.A355D1E4006@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0IBH00AU3XDJDB@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Kirby writes - > > Mostly just played with POV-Ray today, including projected images of award > winning master works, even an animation. Makes perfect sense to me, any Python connection aside. Hard not to repeat myself at this stage - but POV-Ray was exactly the kind of program that made me want to understand something about programming (and the mathematics involved, as well). I guess to other sensibilities it would MUD games, or whatever. But presenting masterworks -POVray itself, and works using POVRay - seems a good way to generate the kind of enthusiasm that might carry some of your students through the hard work ahead. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Feb 7 20:32:57 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Feb 7 20:33:00 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 In-Reply-To: <0IBH00AU3XDJDB@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IBH00AU3XDJDB@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4207C269.4090500@optonline.com> Arthur wrote: >Kirby writes - > > >>Mostly just played with POV-Ray today, including projected images of award >>winning master works, even an animation. >> >> Thinking a little more about what I found so sound appealing about this approach - is that I think you gave your students a feel for 2 separate paths to "enlightenment" .i.e. the creation of masterful tools, and the use of existing tools masterfully. And in that sense are being inclusive of potentially widely different sensibilities. It 's moer fun to fight, in some ways. but I gotta have better ammunition than you're giving me of late. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Feb 8 04:46:01 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Feb 8 04:46:03 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 In-Reply-To: <4207C269.4090500@optonline.com> Message-ID: <20050208034602.794831E4009@bag.python.org> > It 's moer fun to fight, in some ways. but I gotta have better > ammunition than you're giving me of late. > > Art I've got lots of ammo stockpiled, but you'd need to dig for it. Geocaching, ya know -- fun sport. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Feb 8 13:40:31 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Feb 8 13:42:45 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 In-Reply-To: <0IBK009CBQGWTI@mta21.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IBL00DKNFB2DZ@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:46 PM > To: 'Arthur' > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 > > > It 's moer fun to fight, in some ways. but I gotta have better > > ammunition than you're giving me of late. > > > > Art > > I've got lots of ammo stockpiled, but you'd need to dig for it. > Geocaching, > ya know -- fun sport. > > Kirby > Stockpiling WMI. Should have known. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Feb 9 04:36:05 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Feb 9 04:39:10 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 In-Reply-To: <0IBL00DKNFB2DZ@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IBM00KIWKRNRD@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 7:41 AM > To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Arthur' > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:46 PM > > To: 'Arthur' > > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 > > > > > It 's moer fun to fight, in some ways. but I gotta have better > > > ammunition than you're giving me of late. > > > > > > Art > > > > I've got lots of ammo stockpiled, but you'd need to dig for it. > > Geocaching, > > ya know -- fun sport. > > > > Kirby > > > > Stockpiling WMI. Weapons of Mass Instruction. Having no good idea of what the hell Kirby was saying, thought I'd take my best shot at a progression ala his Wittgenstein reference of a few posts back. Another fun sport. Art From H.FANGOHR at soton.ac.uk Wed Feb 9 17:49:13 2005 From: H.FANGOHR at soton.ac.uk (Hans Fangohr) Date: Wed Feb 9 18:01:49 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations Message-ID: Dear all, I am looking for a product that provides three-dimensionality to OpenGL (aiming for visual Python but also VTK graphics) scenes (for teaching purposes). Something like graphics adapter with 3d goggles which work in sync and provide two pictures one for the left and the other for the right eye. Price range not to exceed 250US$; better less. Does a product fitting this criteria exists? Does anyone have any experience with such systems? Thanks, Hans P.S. It would help if this piece of hardware worked on Linux. From urnerk at qwest.net Wed Feb 9 18:57:54 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed Feb 9 18:57:59 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050209175757.78AFB1E4003@bag.python.org> Hi Hans -- On the low end, price-wise, I was able to snag a stack of red/blue stereo glasses from a local 3D museum. They're basically cardboard with cellophane color filters, and I got mine for free. I expect they'd typically go for well under a euro in bulk. And I obtained these glasses specifically for a demonstration involving VPython. I wanted my OSCON 2004 audience to experience a rhombic triacontahedron floating out in front of the big screen on which I was projecting. The illusion was very effective, with people going oooooo, ahhhhhh. Kirby > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Hans Fangohr > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:49 AM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations > > Dear all, > > I am looking for a product that provides three-dimensionality to OpenGL > (aiming for visual Python but also VTK graphics) scenes (for teaching > purposes). Something like graphics adapter with 3d goggles which work in > sync and provide two pictures one for the left and the other for the right > eye. Price range not to exceed 250US$; better less. > > Does a product fitting this criteria exists? Does anyone have any > experience with such systems? > > Thanks, > > Hans > > P.S. It would help if this piece of hardware worked on Linux. > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From H.FANGOHR at soton.ac.uk Wed Feb 9 19:13:15 2005 From: H.FANGOHR at soton.ac.uk (Hans Fangohr) Date: Wed Feb 9 19:13:27 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations In-Reply-To: <200502091757.j19Hvvrv004132@mailscan1.iss.soton.ac.uk> References: <200502091757.j19Hvvrv004132@mailscan1.iss.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi Kirby, > On the low end, price-wise, I was able to snag a stack of red/blue stereo > glasses from a local 3D museum. They're basically cardboard with cellophane > color filters, and I got mine for free. I expect they'd typically go for > well under a euro in bulk. This is excellent (and if anyone can tell me where I can order such glasses, please do! (Need them delivered to the United Kingdom)). I'd love to use this, too -- seems ideal for presentations and lectures. > And I obtained these glasses specifically for a demonstration involving > VPython. I wanted my OSCON 2004 audience to experience a rhombic > triacontahedron floating out in front of the big screen on which I was > projecting. The illusion was very effective, with people going oooooo, > ahhhhhh. I remember reading your email about it ;-) However, I am still interested in the more high-tech product I did ask for: it's appealing in another sense. Thanks, Hans > > Kirby > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On >> Behalf Of Hans Fangohr >> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:49 AM >> To: edu-sig@python.org >> Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations >> >> Dear all, >> >> I am looking for a product that provides three-dimensionality to OpenGL >> (aiming for visual Python but also VTK graphics) scenes (for teaching >> purposes). Something like graphics adapter with 3d goggles which work in >> sync and provide two pictures one for the left and the other for the right >> eye. Price range not to exceed 250US$; better less. >> >> Does a product fitting this criteria exists? Does anyone have any >> experience with such systems? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Hans >> >> P.S. It would help if this piece of hardware worked on Linux. >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig@python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > ------------------------------------------------- Dr Hans Fangohr Computational Engineering & Design Research Group School of Engineering Sciences University of Southampton Southampton, SO17 1BJ United Kingdom Location: Building 25, Room 1027 phone : +44 (0) 23 8059 8345 fax : +44 (0) 23 8059 7082 email : fangohr@soton.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------- From john.zelle at wartburg.edu Wed Feb 9 19:49:04 2005 From: john.zelle at wartburg.edu (John Zelle) Date: Wed Feb 9 19:50:44 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <200502091757.j19Hvvrv004132@mailscan1.iss.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <420A5B20.4000609@wartburg.edu> Hans, There are lots of sources for the cheap (<= $0.40 US) anaglyph (red-blue) glasses on the net. I have recently ordered from RainbowSymphony and had decent results (not wild about the packaging but otherwise fine). As for the shutterglasses, it depends on what you are trying to achieve. There are some cheap ones (VR-Joy has a pair for under $100) that can be used with any video card, but they require either: 1) special software drivers that convert regular OpenGL code to frame-swapping stereo. This software usually is designed for games under windows. (i.e. NOT vpython or VTK apps and generally not under Linux.) 2) use of interlace mode. This requires your images to have left and right eye interlaced. Effectively halving your vertical resolution. At the moment, neither VPython or VTK supports this, although I had intended to add this to the VPython mode, and just never got around to it. Otherwise, you are talking about investing in a quad-buffered stereo card. I doubt if you can find this in the price range you are talking about. If so, it would be a very low-end product. I can't say that I've looked into this very recently. If you told us a little bit more about what you are hoping to accomplish, I might have some ideas for you. We've done quite a bit of playing with stereo display here (I am one of the principle authors of the VPython stereo mode). If you've got a couple protable LCD or DLP projectors available, you can put together a nice portable, full-color, multiple viewer stereo display system for the price that you're considering. You might check out some of the things we've done on this page: http://mcsp.wartburg.edu/SVEN Unfortunately, I don't think any of the VTK stereo modes work with our setup, but some other packages do (e.g. VPython and the molecular modeler PyMol). --John Hans Fangohr wrote: > Hi Kirby, > >> On the low end, price-wise, I was able to snag a stack of red/blue >> stereo >> glasses from a local 3D museum. They're basically cardboard with >> cellophane >> color filters, and I got mine for free. I expect they'd typically go >> for >> well under a euro in bulk. > > This is excellent (and if anyone can tell me where I can order such > glasses, please do! (Need them delivered to the United Kingdom)). I'd > love to use this, too -- seems ideal for presentations and lectures. > >> And I obtained these glasses specifically for a demonstration involving >> VPython. I wanted my OSCON 2004 audience to experience a rhombic >> triacontahedron floating out in front of the big screen on which I was >> projecting. The illusion was very effective, with people going oooooo, >> ahhhhhh. > > I remember reading your email about it ;-) > > However, I am still interested in the more high-tech product I did ask > for: it's appealing in another sense. > > Thanks, > > Hans > > >> >> Kirby >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On >>> Behalf Of Hans Fangohr >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:49 AM >>> To: edu-sig@python.org >>> Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I am looking for a product that provides three-dimensionality to OpenGL >>> (aiming for visual Python but also VTK graphics) scenes (for teaching >>> purposes). Something like graphics adapter with 3d goggles which >>> work in >>> sync and provide two pictures one for the left and the other for the >>> right >>> eye. Price range not to exceed 250US$; better less. >>> >>> Does a product fitting this criteria exists? Does anyone have any >>> experience with such systems? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Hans >>> >>> P.S. It would help if this piece of hardware worked on Linux. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Edu-sig mailing list >>> Edu-sig@python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------- > Dr Hans Fangohr > > Computational Engineering & Design Research Group > School of Engineering Sciences > University of Southampton > Southampton, SO17 1BJ > United Kingdom > > Location: Building 25, Room 1027 > phone : +44 (0) 23 8059 8345 > fax : +44 (0) 23 8059 7082 > email : fangohr@soton.ac.uk > ------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > From urnerk at qwest.net Wed Feb 9 19:55:23 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed Feb 9 19:55:28 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 In-Reply-To: <0IBM00KIWKRNRD@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050209185526.980321E4003@bag.python.org> > > Stockpiling WMI. > > Weapons of Mass Instruction. > That reminds me of a piece of Class 4 I forgot to describe. Remember, this is billed as a math class, with Python programming as a tool, a means to an end. So it's logical that I'd be doing a fair bit of geometry, in addition to a lot of pure/core Pythonic stuff. So I have this plastic box containing, among other goodies, a set of stiff paperboard polyhedra, with black electrical tape along the edges. Thanks to help from my friends Trevor and Russ Chu, they're precisely dimensioned for this demo I do, quite frequently, for audiences of all ages (but mostly kids). First, I take out my tetrahedron. We've already gone over Euler's V + F = E + 2. One face is missing (from all of them) meaning they're containers or "mixing bowls" of a kind. Lining the bottom of my plastic box: some kind of dried white bean (I forget the technical name for them). I say: "OK, this here tetrahedron will be my unit of measure, my cup." Then I go into this riff (how it goes varies from time to time) wherein I fill the other polys in my box with tetra-units of white bean. The pleasing result: cube = 3 tetvols, octahedron = 4, rhombic dodeca = 6, and cubocta = 20. Then there's this whole thing about how the cubocta (tetravolume 20) is really 12 balls around 1 in disguise, then 42, 92, 162 as we pack outward, layer by layer. So really, this whole business about the polyhedra embeds into a sphere packing matrix well known to architects and crystallographers. We call it the concentric hierarchy. We don't know why your high schools don't teach it. But here at Saturday Academy, we're sure to clue you in (because we care). How does all this relate to Python then? Well, per Class 3, by way of the figurate numbers, with the polyhedral numbers being a superclass thereof. We write little Python programs (just a few lines) that spit out these sequences of triangular, tetrahedral, cuboctahedral numbers (which latter are also icosahedral numbers, per Jitterbug Transformation). It's all pretty seamless. Python, geometry, POV-Ray... From the standpoint of these students, this is just run-o-the-mill stuff, more ho hum academics, though admittedly a lot more interesting than what their getting on weekdays. But old timers, teachers, onlookers, may appreciate that this curriculum is 100% subversive of the status quo. The NCTM doesn't stand a chance of keeping its standards unchanged, given this kind of content pumping out and around the Internet in a big way. We're an engine for positive change, armed with simply awesome WMI. Kirby > > Art > From lac at strakt.com Wed Feb 9 21:00:24 2005 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Wed Feb 9 21:00:28 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations In-Reply-To: Message from Hans Fangohr of "Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:13:15 GMT." References: <200502091757.j19Hvvrv004132@mailscan1.iss.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200502092000.j19K0O7l026382@theraft.strakt.com> I think, but am not certain, the Glasgow Science Centre has cheap 3-D glasses. http://www.glasgowsciencecentre.org/ Laura From phillip.kent at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 01:54:50 2005 From: phillip.kent at gmail.com (Phillip Kent) Date: Thu Feb 10 01:52:39 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <200502091757.j19Hvvrv004132@mailscan1.iss.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210004930.04b68eb0@pop.gmail.com> Dear Hans, to buy 3D materials in UK, have a look at: www.3dimages.co.uk (the owner, David Burder, is very nice and knows pretty much everything you could want to know about 3D imaging, but were afraid to ask ;-)). - Phillip At 18:13 09/02/2005, Hans Fangohr wrote: >Hi Kirby, > >>On the low end, price-wise, I was able to snag a stack of red/blue stereo >>glasses from a local 3D museum. They're basically cardboard with cellophane >>color filters, and I got mine for free. I expect they'd typically go for >>well under a euro in bulk. >This is excellent (and if anyone can tell me where I can order such >glasses, please do! (Need them delivered to the United Kingdom)). I'd love >to use this, too -- seems ideal for presentations and lectures. ++++++ Dr Phillip Kent, London, UK mathematics education technology research phillip.kent@gmail.com mobile: 07950 952034 ++++++ "Say it! No ideas but in things" From H.FANGOHR at soton.ac.uk Thu Feb 10 14:48:30 2005 From: H.FANGOHR at soton.ac.uk (Hans Fangohr) Date: Thu Feb 10 14:49:00 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations In-Reply-To: <420A5B20.4000609@wartburg.edu> References: <200502091757.j19Hvvrv004132@mailscan1.iss.soton.ac.uk> <420A5B20.4000609@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: Hi John, > There are lots of sources for the cheap (<= $0.40 US) anaglyph (red-blue) > glasses on the net. I have recently ordered from RainbowSymphony and had > decent results (not wild about the packaging but otherwise fine). > > As for the shutterglasses, it depends on what you are trying to achieve. > There are some cheap ones (VR-Joy has a pair for under $100) that can be used > with any video card, but they require either: > > 1) special software drivers that convert regular OpenGL code to > frame-swapping stereo. This software usually is designed for games under > windows. (i.e. NOT vpython or VTK apps and generally not under Linux.) Right. I had seen a pair of glasses of this type some years ago (indeed on a windows machine); and this is what I was thinking of to get now. However, if neither VPython nor VTK is supported (or supports it -- whatever way round you want to read this), then it won't help much. > 2) use of interlace mode. This requires your images to have left and right > eye interlaced. Effectively halving your vertical resolution. At the moment, > neither VPython or VTK supports this, although I had intended to add this to > the VPython mode, and just never got around to it. Just to use this occasion to congratulate you on (your contribution to) VPython. It is an excellent educational tool. I'll be using it this year in my lectures for 2nd year Aerospace Engineering students. > > Otherwise, you are talking about investing in a quad-buffered stereo card. I > doubt if you can find this in the price range you are talking about. If so, > it would be a very low-end product. I can't say that I've looked into this > very recently. > > If you told us a little bit more about what you are hoping to accomplish, I > might have some ideas for you. We've done quite a bit of playing with stereo > display here (I am one of the principle authors of the VPython stereo mode). > If you've got a couple protable LCD or DLP projectors available, you can put > together a nice portable, full-color, multiple viewer stereo display system > for the price that you're considering. You might check out some of the things > we've done on this page: > http://mcsp.wartburg.edu/SVEN Very useful comments, and a very useful paper you provided the link to -- many thanks. I was looking for some VR visualisation for two purposes: (i) "simple" for class room use with many students, and in seminars. From what you say, Red-Blue glasses seems best for this, and both VPython as well as VTK support them. (ii) higher quality facilities (something like quad shutter-glasses, or polarising glassed) for use in a research environment for one or two people. However, having read your paper and not having the funding either of these technologies, I might just go for red-blue here, too. Many thanks for your help, Hans > Unfortunately, I don't think any of the VTK stereo modes work with our setup, > but some other packages do (e.g. VPython and the molecular modeler PyMol). > > --John > > > Hans Fangohr wrote: > >> Hi Kirby, >> >>> On the low end, price-wise, I was able to snag a stack of red/blue >>> stereo >>> glasses from a local 3D museum. They're basically cardboard with >>> cellophane >>> color filters, and I got mine for free. I expect they'd typically go >>> for >>> well under a euro in bulk. >> >> This is excellent (and if anyone can tell me where I can order such >> glasses, please do! (Need them delivered to the United Kingdom)). I'd >> love to use this, too -- seems ideal for presentations and lectures. >> >>> And I obtained these glasses specifically for a demonstration involving >>> VPython. I wanted my OSCON 2004 audience to experience a rhombic >>> triacontahedron floating out in front of the big screen on which I was >>> projecting. The illusion was very effective, with people going oooooo, >>> ahhhhhh. >> >> I remember reading your email about it ;-) >> >> However, I am still interested in the more high-tech product I did ask >> for: it's appealing in another sense. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Hans >> >> >>> >>> Kirby >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of Hans Fangohr >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:49 AM >>>> To: edu-sig@python.org >>>> Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I am looking for a product that provides three-dimensionality to >>>> OpenGL >>>> (aiming for visual Python but also VTK graphics) scenes (for teaching >>>> purposes). Something like graphics adapter with 3d goggles which work >>>> in >>>> sync and provide two pictures one for the left and the other for the >>>> right >>>> eye. Price range not to exceed 250US$; better less. >>>> >>>> Does a product fitting this criteria exists? Does anyone have any >>>> experience with such systems? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Hans >>>> >>>> P.S. It would help if this piece of hardware worked on Linux. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Edu-sig mailing list >>>> Edu-sig@python.org >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------- >> Dr Hans Fangohr >> >> Computational Engineering & Design Research Group >> School of Engineering Sciences >> University of Southampton >> Southampton, SO17 1BJ >> United Kingdom >> >> Location: Building 25, Room 1027 >> phone : +44 (0) 23 8059 8345 >> fax : +44 (0) 23 8059 7082 >> email : fangohr@soton.ac.uk >> ------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig@python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > ------------------------------------------------- Dr Hans Fangohr Computational Engineering & Design Research Group School of Engineering Sciences University of Southampton Southampton, SO17 1BJ United Kingdom Location: Building 25, Room 1027 phone : +44 (0) 23 8059 8345 fax : +44 (0) 23 8059 7082 email : fangohr@soton.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------- From mike at witsmith.com Thu Feb 10 20:41:55 2005 From: mike at witsmith.com (Mike Hatalski) Date: Thu Feb 10 20:42:05 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations References: Message-ID: <0a7e01c50fa8$956bcec0$6502a8c0@hairball> FYI: There's a interesting 3d process called ChromaDepth that uses special glasses but only a single image using color for the depth component. For example, given an image with a blue ball and a red ball on black background, both balls appear to be floating, with the blue ball closer than the red. http://www.chromatek.com/ --Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Fangohr" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:49 AM Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d goggles -- any recommendations > Dear all, > > I am looking for a product that provides three-dimensionality to OpenGL > (aiming for visual Python but also VTK graphics) scenes (for teaching > purposes). Something like graphics adapter with 3d goggles which work in > sync and provide two pictures one for the left and the other for the right > eye. Price range not to exceed 250US$; better less. > > Does a product fitting this criteria exists? Does anyone have any > experience with such systems? > > Thanks, > > Hans > > P.S. It would help if this piece of hardware worked on Linux. From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Feb 11 20:42:48 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Fri Feb 11 20:42:50 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Financial calculation Message-ID: <23b2c2223b71f9.23b71f923b2c22@optonline.net> Having checked the archives: On Dec 26, when Apple Computer was selling near it's then historical high of $64, I had mentioned that my friend still considered it a good buy. Apple today announce a 2-for 1 stock split, and is selling at around $81. By my quick calculations, this represents a rate of annualized return of approximately 500%. If we had bought one share of Apple on Dec 27, and then extrapolate the return realized to date over 10 years, I think we end up with nearly $4,000,000,000 at the end of a ten year period. Almost enough to fund Python3.0. The Apple mention was as far as I am aware the only mention of stock values and investment ever made on edu-sig. This would lead me to believe that Python edu-sig probably has the right to claim itself to have the best track record for investment advice of any forum on the Web. Though maybe my calculations need to be checked, in Python. And I still don't own any Apple. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Feb 12 18:21:00 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Feb 12 18:21:21 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 4 Message-ID: <0IBT00LD76V9OO@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Kirby - >So I have this plastic box containing, among other goodies, a set of stiff >paperboard polyhedra, with black electrical tape along the edges. Thanks >to help from my friends Trevor and Russ Chu, they're precisely dimensioned >for this demo I do, quite frequently, for audiences of all ages (but mostly >kids). A multimedia approach, in a more sane sense than one normally encounters. I just came across Bradford Hansen-Smith, and his origami book. http://www.wholemovement.com/ suspecting it is something you would already know about, as its introduction sounds like something Bucky (or Kirby) might have written. Have a bid in on the book at ebay - 10 hours left. No competition invited. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Feb 12 22:08:45 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Feb 12 22:08:43 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: financial calculation Message-ID: <420E705D.2020609@optonline.com> >Though maybe my calculations need to be checked, in Python. which I attempt, as follows: ____________________________________________________________ from __future__ import division import datetime import math def future_value(iday,cday,ivalue,cvalue,years): days_invested=(cday-iday).days year_periods=365/days_invested annualized_rate = math.log(cvalue/ivalue)*year_periods #future_value at the end of given years return ivalue*math.pow(math.e,annualized_rate*years) #date we purchased stock iday=datetime.date(2004,12,27) #date of valuation cday=datetime.date(2005,2,11) #price at purchase ivalue=64.5 #current price cvalue=81 #let's keep this up for ten years - sure.... print future_value(iday,cday,ivalue,cvalue,10) _________________________________________________ which returns 4561078546.84 well over $4 bliion 4,561,078,546.84 This is still not seeming intuitively correct. Which might be a problem of my intuition, or my calculation. Really not sure. A very serious - (or just serious,compared to my silliness) - quantitative financial analysis tool available to the Python programmer/student of quantitative finance is the Python bindings to the C++ Quantlib library. http://www.quantlib.org/ Unfortuantely while it provides automatically generated API documentation, I haven't found anything that could be called a user manual. Art ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From gvanrossum at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 02:11:45 2005 From: gvanrossum at gmail.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Sun Feb 13 02:11:47 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: financial calculation In-Reply-To: <420E705D.2020609@optonline.com> References: <420E705D.2020609@optonline.com> Message-ID: > ____________________________________________________________ > from __future__ import division > > import datetime > import math > > def future_value(iday,cday,ivalue,cvalue,years): > days_invested=(cday-iday).days > year_periods=365/days_invested > annualized_rate = math.log(cvalue/ivalue)*year_periods > #future_value at the end of given years > return ivalue*math.pow(math.e,annualized_rate*years) > > #date we purchased stock > iday=datetime.date(2004,12,27) > > #date of valuation > cday=datetime.date(2005,2,11) > > #price at purchase > ivalue=64.5 > > #current price > cvalue=81 > > #let's keep this up for ten years - sure.... > print future_value(iday,cday,ivalue,cvalue,10) > _________________________________________________ > > which returns > 4561078546.84 If you fix it, as follows: year_periods=days_invested/365 the answer is about 85. :-) -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Feb 13 03:28:55 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Feb 13 03:29:05 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: financial calculation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0IBT00BCIW8E1E@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > > which returns > > 4561078546.84 > > If you fix it, as follows: > > year_periods=days_invested/365 > > the answer is about 85. :-) > > -- > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) >>print my_anwser-Guido's_answer >>4561078461.84 That's a big difference. Even for us ;) Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Feb 13 16:41:12 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Feb 13 16:41:11 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 5 In-Reply-To: <20050209185526.980321E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20050213154109.BE9381E4007@bag.python.org> The core of class 5 was tackling some number and group theory, as the course description advertises that we'll cover such (plus I *like* this stuff and find Python extremely valuable in communicating it). I think the students were amused that I'd actually tackle this stuff with them. It's not like they're being graded (they'll get certificates of completion), so from their point of view, this is a safe space in which to preview some stuff they might encounter again later. We went through Fermat's Theorem (not the famous last one, but this one): If p is prime then pow(b, p-1, p)==1 provided gcd(b,p)==1. Then I presented this as a specific instance of Euler's Theorem: pow(b, phi(n), n)==1 provided gcd(b,n)==1. It's an instance, because phi(p) = p-1. We'd already discussed what phi(n) means -- that's where I started (source code linked below). The sequence I use is something like this: 1. Euclid's Algorithm (Guido's simplest Python version) 2. Totatives of n 3. Phi(n) 4. Fermat's Theorem 5. Euler's Theorem 6. Some hand waving about the relevance of 5 to RSA (plug for 'In Code' by Flannerys) 7. definition of the P class for doing integer multiplication modulo n 8. group theory result that [P(i) for i in tots(n)] forms a group 9. what's a group? CAIN (closure, associative, inverse, neutral element) That was the tough stuff (they stayed with me for the most part). But interleaved was plenty of play and mental relaxation, including: Elastic Interval Geometry java programs: fluidiom.v2.nl (one of the most sophisticated applets ever written) www.springie.com (cute/clever EIG application) I explain how knowing Python is going to make Java seem a lot more accessible, and there're still good reasons for learning Java, including this whole applet technology, which Python does not duplicate. We also played with and projected: Terra server: http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ Kids enjoyed locating their homes and schools etc. Our area happens to be one of those terraserved. One student turned me on to keyhole as a perhaps better alternative: http://www.keyhole.com/ (looking into it) All of this is more fun given the big screen up front. The plan is to project Pygeo and some VPython under this heading of "fun stuff" next week (last class), as well as to delve into the J language some (again per course catalog). Much of the Python source code we've been using over the weeks, plus one student POV-Ray .pov and rendering (used with permission, so long as identity of student held back) are viewable here: http://www.4dsolutions.net/satacad/sa6299/ (I notice that test7.bmp is 2.3 meg -- I'll convert it to compressed format after I post this email (POV-Ray output is defaulting to bmp in our class)). Kirby PS: I spent the rest of Saturday working with Free Geek to migrate data from an Access MDB to Postgres, for an open source Perl app called sql-clinic. That took several hours. From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Feb 13 18:50:06 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Feb 13 18:50:24 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: financial calculation In-Reply-To: <0IBT00BCIW8E1E@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IBV00KXT2VOB9@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> For anybody who might join me in my crass interest in $4.5 billion. In the form below - i.e. just adding some sanity checking - I seem to be able to conclude my code is sane (by some loose definition of sanity). Sample output: value at 2004-12-27: 64.50 assumed value at 2005-02-11: 65.50 projected future value at 2014-12-15: 218.64 value at 2004-12-27: 64.50 assumed value at 2005-02-11: 71.00 projected future value at 2014-12-15: 131297.27 value at 2004-12-27: 64.50 actual at 2005-02-11: 81.00 projected future value at 2014-12-15: 4561078546.84 ------------------------------------------------------------------ from __future__ import division import datetime import math def future_value(iday,cday,ivalue,cvalue,years): days_invested=(cday-iday).days year_periods=365/days_invested annualized_rate = math.log(cvalue/ivalue)*year_periods #future_value at the end of given years return ivalue*math.pow(math.e,annualized_rate*years) #date we purchased stock iday=datetime.date(2004,12,27) #date of valuation cday=datetime.date(2005,2,11) #10 years from date we purchased stock fdate = iday+datetime.timedelta(weeks=10*52) #price at purchase ivalue=64.5 for i in range(0,34): cvalue = ivalue + i/2 fvalue = round(future_value(iday,cday,ivalue,cvalue,10),2) print "value at %s: %.2f" %(iday,ivalue) if not i == 33: print "assumed value at %s: %.2f" %(cday,cvalue) else: print "actual value at %s: %.2f" %(cday,cvalue) print "projected future value at %s: %.2f" %(fdate,fvalue) print "+-------------------------------+" print "\n" From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org Mon Feb 14 20:01:45 2005 From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels) Date: Mon Feb 14 20:15:51 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: python satacad: class 5 In-Reply-To: <20050213154109.BE9381E4007@bag.python.org> References: <20050209185526.980321E4003@bag.python.org> <20050213154109.BE9381E4007@bag.python.org> Message-ID: Kirby Urner wrote: ... > (I notice that test7.bmp is 2.3 meg -- I'll convert it to compressed format > after I post this email (POV-Ray output is defaulting to bmp in our class)). If you add '+FN' on the command line or the moral equivalent on Windows: [Render] [Edit Settings/Render] == Alt-R Alt-R Return and change the "Command Line Options" to include "+FN", you will generate .PNGs, which are losslessly compressed. Much smaller than .BMP (still larger than .JPG), but preserve everything. Using .PNGs will make it easier for your students to take pictures home. --Scott David Daniels Scott.Daniels@Acm.Org From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Feb 14 20:41:57 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Feb 14 20:42:01 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Financial calculation In-Reply-To: <23b2c2223b71f9.23b71f923b2c22@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20050214194159.ED9741E4007@bag.python.org> > Though maybe my calculations need to be checked, in Python. > > And I still don't own any Apple. > > Art Why is it useful to take a sudden spike in a stock, use that to derive an annual growth rate of 500%, and plug that into a compound interest formula running out 10 years? By the same reasoning, finding a $100 bill on the sidewalk will make me a gazillionaire, so I should just quit all my jobs and retire. Over on the Wittgenstein list, we call this "language idling" (i.e. doing no work). Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Feb 14 20:47:27 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Mon Feb 14 20:47:29 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Financial calculation Message-ID: <234d296234b222.234b222234d296@optonline.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby Urner Date: Monday, February 14, 2005 2:41 pm Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Financial calculation > > Though maybe my calculations need to be checked, in Python. > > > > And I still don't own any Apple. > > > > Art > > Why is it useful to take a sudden spike in a stock, use that to > derive an > annual growth rate of 500%, and plug that into a compound interest > formularunning out 10 years? Why is useful to repeat the story of the King and the grains of wheat and the chessboard? I assume you know my reference. Same reason, different era. > > By the same reasoning, finding a $100 bill on the sidewalk will > make me a > gazillionaire, so I should just quit all my jobs and retire. Only if you can find a why to compund it a 500% over some substanital time period. Else you just found $100. That used to buy a nice pair of shoes. > > Over on the Wittgenstein list, we call this "language idling" > (i.e. doing no > work). If you say so. Art > > Kirby > > > From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Feb 14 20:55:53 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Feb 14 20:55:56 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: python satacad: class 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050214195555.3C6131E400A@bag.python.org> > [Render] [Edit Settings/Render] == Alt-R Alt-R Return > and change the "Command Line Options" to include "+FN", you will > generate .PNGs, which are losslessly compressed. Much smaller than > .BMP (still larger than .JPG), but preserve everything. Using > .PNGs will make it easier for your students to take pictures home. > > --Scott David Daniels > Scott.Daniels@Acm.Org Thanks Scott. Yes, this is how I have it set up on my boxes. Just didn't get to it in the Win2000 boxes in the classroom. I might mention something about it next week. As far as taking picture home, the students just take the .pov source on floppy or USB dongle, so they can continue working on them. POV-Ray is a free download. They just re-render. Kirby From urnerk at python.org Mon Feb 14 20:58:51 2005 From: urnerk at python.org (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Feb 14 20:58:54 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Financial calculation In-Reply-To: <234d296234b222.234b222234d296@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20050214195853.38FD71E4007@bag.python.org> > Why is useful to repeat the story of the King and the grains of wheat > and the chessboard? > > I assume you know my reference. > I do. The point is that exponential functions get big fast. That's why in the real world you can't project rates of return that way. These are mathematical abstractions that quickly break down when applied to human affairs. > Same reason, different era. > I don't think it's a point computer geeks need reminding of. But I guess it's impressive when there's a dollar sign in front (makes it look more like Perl). > > > > By the same reasoning, finding a $100 bill on the sidewalk will > > make me a > > gazillionaire, so I should just quit all my jobs and retire. > > Only if you can find a why to compund it a 500% over some > substanital time period. Else you just found $100. > Exactly. Nor does Apple have a way to pull this off -- quite obviously. > That used to buy a nice pair of shoes. > > > > Over on the Wittgenstein list, we call this "language idling" > > (i.e. doing no > > work). > > > If you say so. > I do. It's work if you're still learning what exponential functions are, but this has nothing to do with actual financial planning. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Feb 14 21:02:53 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Mon Feb 14 21:02:56 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Financial calculation Message-ID: <212568e211f114.211f114212568e@optonline.net> > > I do. It's work if you're still learning what exponential > functions are, > but this has nothing to do with actual financial planning. Kirby - Nice to return to some normalcy.... I was being a silly. I know I was being silly. It is silly to think I don't know I was being silly. Which makes it silly to tell me I was being silly. Nice to have you join some silliness. But -- Should I stick strictly to business in the future. Advice? Art From lac at strakt.com Mon Feb 14 21:09:31 2005 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Feb 14 21:09:35 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Financial calculation In-Reply-To: Message from ajsiegel@optonline.net of "Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:02:53 EST." <212568e211f114.211f114212568e@optonline.net> References: <212568e211f114.211f114212568e@optonline.net> Message-ID: <200502142009.j1EK9V3H027894@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:02:53 EST, ajsiegel@optonline.net writes: >> >> I do. It's work if you're still learning what exponential >> functions are, >> but this has nothing to do with actual financial planning. > >Kirby - > >Nice to return to some normalcy.... > >I was being a silly. I know I was being silly. > >It is silly to think I don't know I was being silly. > >Which makes it silly to tell me I was being silly. > >Nice to have you join some silliness. > >But -- Should I stick strictly to business in the future. > >Advice? > >Art Don't make promises you cannot keep :-) yours in incorrigable silliness, Laura From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Feb 14 21:12:35 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Feb 14 21:12:39 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Financial calculation In-Reply-To: <212568e211f114.211f114212568e@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20050214201238.E9DFA1E4007@bag.python.org> > I was being a silly. I know I was being silly. OK, but you were talking about your results not seeming intuitively correct, published a lot of source code, presumably inviting eyeballs. You were playing on our reflexes as geeks to actually try to help you out, squish a bug. You even got Guido to commit a few clock cycles, busy guy that he is. Now it turns out that, like the Federal Budget, you're just hoaxing us, reminding us that all the rice in China couldn't keep up with that chessboard's rate of return. Like the Federal Deficit. > > It is silly to think I don't know I was being silly. > > Which makes it silly to tell me I was being silly. > > Nice to have you join some silliness. > > But -- Should I stick strictly to business in the future. > > Advice? > > Art As you please. Kirby From gvanrossum at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 21:16:20 2005 From: gvanrossum at gmail.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon Feb 14 21:16:26 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Financial calculation In-Reply-To: <20050214201238.E9DFA1E4007@bag.python.org> References: <212568e211f114.211f114212568e@optonline.net> <20050214201238.E9DFA1E4007@bag.python.org> Message-ID: > You were playing on our reflexes as geeks to actually try to help you out, > squish a bug. You even got Guido to commit a few clock cycles, busy guy > that he is. Don't worry about wasting *my* time -- I can take care of that myself. My only question for Arthur is now: silly party, slightly silly party, or very silly party? -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From tismer at stackless.com Tue Feb 15 15:25:39 2005 From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer) Date: Tue Feb 15 15:26:12 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Ann: PyPy Sprint before PYCON 2005 in Washington Message-ID: <42120663.30301@stackless.com> PyPy Sprint before PYCON 2005 in Washington ------------------------------------------- In the four days from 19th March till 22th March (inclusive) the PyPy team will host a sprint on their new Python-in-Python implementation. The PyPy project was granted funding by the European Union as part of its Sixth Framework Program, and is now on track to produce a stackless Python-in-Python Just-in-Time Compiler by December 2006. Our Python implementation, released under the MIT/BSD license, already provides new levels of flexibility and extensibility at the core interpreter and object implementation level. Armin Rigo and Holger Krekel will also give talks about PyPy and the separate py.test tool (used to perform various kinds of testing in PyPy) during the conference. Naturally, we are eager to see how the other re-implementation of Python, namely IronPython, is doing and to explore collaboration possibilities. Of course, that will depend on the degree of openness that Microsoft wants to employ. The Pycon2005 sprint is going to focus on reaching compatibility with CPython (currently we target version 2.3.4) for our PyPy version running on top of CPython. One goal of the sprint is to pass 60% or more of the unmodified regression tests of mainline CPython. It will thus be a great way to get to know CPython and PyPy better at the same time! Other possible work areas include: - translation to C to get a first working lower-level representation of the interpreter "specified in Python" - integrating and implementing a full parser/compiler chain written in Python maybe already targetting the new AST-branch of mainline CPython - fixing various remaining issues that will come up while trying to reach the compatibility goal - integrate or code pure python implementations of some Python modules currently written in C. - whatever issues you come up with! (please tell us before hand so we can better plan introductions etc.pp.) Besides core developers, Bea D?ring will be present to help improving and document our sprint and agile development process. We are going to give tutorials about PyPy's basic concepts and provide help to newcomers usually by pairing them with experienced pypythonistas. However, we kindly ask newcomers to be present on the first day's morning (19th of March) of the sprint to be able to get everyone a smooth start into the sprint. So far most newcomers had few problems in getting a good start into our codebase. However, it is good to have the following preparational points in mind: - some experience with programming in the Python language and interest to dive deeper - subscription to pypy-dev and pypy-sprint at http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?lists - have a subversion-client, Pygame and graphviz installed on the machine you bring to the sprint. - have a look at our current documentation, especially the architecture and getting-started documents under http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc The pypy-dev and pypy-sprint lists are also the contact points for raising questions and suggesting and discussing sprint topics beforehand. We are on #pypy on irc.freenode.net most of the time. Please don't hesitate to contact us or introduce yourself and your interests! Logistics --------- Organizational details will be posted to pypy-sprint and are or will be available in the Pycon2005-Sprint wiki here: http://www.python.org/moin/PyConDC2005/Sprints Registration ------------ send mail to pypy-sprint@codespeak.net, stating the days you can be present and any specific interests if applicable. Registered Participants ----------------------- all days: Jacob Hall?n Armin Rigo Holger Krekel Samuele Pedroni Anders Chrigstr?m Bea D?ring Christian Tismer Richard Emslie -- Christian Tismer :^) tismerysoft GmbH : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9A : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/ 14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/ work +49 30 802 86 56 mobile +49 173 24 18 776 fax +49 30 80 90 57 05 PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04 whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/ From glingl at aon.at Tue Feb 15 21:49:33 2005 From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl) Date: Tue Feb 15 21:47:42 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Do you have a cat? Message-ID: <4212605D.3050803@aon.at> If so, have a look at http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7403 It shows you how to feed it, using Linux, Python and an inexpensive microcontroller Have fun ;-) Gregor From christian.mascher at gmx.de Tue Feb 15 21:51:34 2005 From: christian.mascher at gmx.de (Christian Mascher) Date: Tue Feb 15 21:53:55 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: (financial calculation) - using units In-Reply-To: <20050213110004.2C4CD1E4014@bag.python.org> References: <20050213110004.2C4CD1E4014@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <421260D6.9080404@gmx.de> > def future_value(iday,cday,ivalue,cvalue,years): > days_invested=(cday-iday).days > year_periods=365/days_invested Bothered me (too), the year_periods should be of a time-dimension. duration_in_years=days/365 > annualized_rate = math.log(cvalue/ivalue)*year_periods ^ The rate is _per_ time-unit, so I would put the / here. Result remains the same of course. I think as a physicist, don't know how they do it in finances. BTW, how does one express units of measure in Python/programming? Calculations in applications aren't just about numbers. For instance, how could one express equations like 10000 cm^2 == 1 m^2 1000 g == 0.001 t in a programming language? Another point would be the inclusion of a measure of accuracy: For a physicist or engineer 1 cm != 1.00 cm because the first could be 0.9 cm, the second couldn't, beeing more accurate. Greetings, Christian From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Feb 15 23:21:37 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Feb 15 23:21:38 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: (financial calculation) - using units In-Reply-To: <421260D6.9080404@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050215222137.7C0491E4003@bag.python.org> > > def future_value(iday,cday,ivalue,cvalue,years): > > days_invested=(cday-iday).days > > year_periods=365/days_invested > > Bothered me (too), the year_periods should be of a time-dimension. > Wasn't a bug though. I used http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=123198 to check Arthur's figure for average growth rate and it was correct. > BTW, how does one express units of measure in Python/programming? There'd be ways. MathCad has this built in -- cool feature. Mathematica too, plus something about accuracy, as you're probably aware. The new decimal type has thread-specific accuracy, but I'm not up on how to use it. Perhaps I'll learn at Pycon. Just made my plane rez a couple hours ago. My wife is coming along (to DC, not to Pycon). Kirby From nico at tekNico.net Tue Feb 15 23:45:35 2005 From: nico at tekNico.net (Nicola Larosa) Date: Tue Feb 15 23:45:42 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: (financial calculation) - using units In-Reply-To: <421260D6.9080404@gmx.de> References: <20050213110004.2C4CD1E4014@bag.python.org> <421260D6.9080404@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42127B8F.7070100@tekNico.net> > BTW, how does one express units of measure in Python/programming? > ... > Another point would be the inclusion of measure of accuracy: > ... Don't know about accuracy, but regarding measure units, you may want to look at Unum: http://home.tiscali.be/be052320/Unum.html -- Nicola Larosa - nico@tekNico.net The reward for your efforts will be an equivocal one: you will feel as suffocated programming in C++ as an experienced C++ programmer would feel programming in Basic. -- Paul Graham, ANSI Common Lisp, 1995 From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Feb 16 03:11:03 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Wed Feb 16 03:11:06 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: (financial calculation) - using units Message-ID: <22cb72122c7acc.22c7acc22cb721@optonline.net> Christian writes - > > > def future_value(iday,cday,ivalue,cvalue,years): > > days_invested=(cday-iday).days > > year_periods=365/days_invested > > Bothered me (too), the year_periods should be of a time-dimension. > > duration_in_years=days/365 I would at least argue that there is method to my madness. Financial thinking as to rates of return, and comparison between returns, generally puts things on an annualized basis. I am thinking (and coding) in terms of an annualized return, and then dealing with it thusly. Domain appropriate thinking, think I. Of course lots in nature grows at compounded growth rates - it's just thought about a bit differently. And in nature as in finance limiting factors tend to intervene. Trees don't grow 4.5 billion feet high. Normally ;) Art From delza at livingcode.org Wed Feb 16 04:32:22 2005 From: delza at livingcode.org (Dethe Elza) Date: Wed Feb 16 04:32:24 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: (financial calculation) - using units In-Reply-To: <421260D6.9080404@gmx.de> References: <20050213110004.2C4CD1E4014@bag.python.org> <421260D6.9080404@gmx.de> Message-ID: On 15-Feb-05, at 12:51 PM, Christian Mascher wrote: > BTW, how does one express units of measure in Python/programming? > Calculations in applications aren't just about numbers. For instance, > how could one express equations like > 10000 cm^2 == 1 m^2 > 1000 g == 0.001 t > in a programming language? Another point would be the inclusion of a > measure of accuracy: > For a physicist or engineer > 1 cm != 1.00 cm > because the first could be 0.9 cm, the second couldn't, beeing more > accurate. You might want to take a look at Frink. Programming explicitly in units is it's main purpose, although it also contains lots of reference data as part of it's domain intelligence (including WordNet, the open-source dictionary (I'm oversimplifying, WordNet is more than a dictionary)). http://futureboy.homeip.net/frinkdocs/index.html From the Frink documentation: I received one of those endlessly-forwarded e-mails of dubious but "interesting facts" which said "if you fart continuously for 6 years and 9 months, you'll have enough gas to create the equivalent of an atomic bomb." Hee hee. Cute. (Thanks to Heather May Howard... being unable to easily calculate the veracity of this statement was one of the primary influences that showed how existing programs were too limited and inspired the creation of Frink.) But I didn't believe it and wanted to check it. The Hiroshima bomb had a yield of 12.5 kilotons of TNT, which is a very small bomb by today's standards. How many horsepower would that be? 12.5 kilotons TNT / (6 years + 9 months) -> horsepower 329.26013859711395 Can you produce a 329-horsepower blowtorch of a fart? I doubt it. That's the power produced by a Corvette engine running just at its melting point. A one-second fart with that much power could blow me 1000 feet straight up. To produce that kind of energy, how much food would you have to eat a day? 12.5 kilotons TNT / (6 years + 9 months) -> Calories/day 5066811.55086559 Ummm... can you eat over 5 million Calories a day? (Again, note that these are food Calories with a capital 'c' which are equal to 1000 calories with a small 'c'.) If you were a perfect fart factory, converting food energy into farts with 100% efficiency, and ate a normal 2000 Calories/day, how many years would it really take? 12.5 kilotons TNT / (2000 Calories/day) -> years 17100.488984171367 17,000 years is still a huge underestimate; I don't know how much of your energy actually goes into fart production. Oh well. To continue the calculations, let's guess your butthole has a diameter of 1 inch (no, you go measure it.) Let's also guess that the gas you actually produce in a fart is only 1/10 as combustible as pure natural gas. What would be the velocity of the gas coming out? 12.5 kilotons TNT / natural_gas / (6 years + 9 months) / (pi (.5 in)^2) 10 -> mph 280.1590446203110 Nobody likes sitting next to a 280-mile-per-hour fart-machine. Lesson: Even the smallest atomic bombs are really unbelievably powerful and whoever originally calculated this isn't any fun to be around if they really fart that much. Fart jokes. Sheesh. If Frink isn't a huge success, it's not because I didn't pander to the Lowest Common Denominator. There are lots of more practical usages as well. Frink syntax is somewhere in the Perl/Python ballpark, but explicitly intended for one-off short scripts. It's written in Java, so fairly portable. And the data sets it incorporates are valuable in themselves. I'd love to see a Python version of this, but since it can be embedded in Java with two lines of code, it should be accessible from Jython. Here are a few more of the features, also from the docs: Tracks units of measure (feet, meters, tons, dollars, watts, etc.) through all calculations and allows you to add, subtract, multiply, and divide them effortlessly, and makes sure the answer comes out correct, even if you mix units like gallons and liters. * Arbitrary-precision math, including huge integers and floating-point numbers, rational numbers (that is, fractions like 1/3 are kept without loss of precision,) and complex numbers. * Advanced mathematical functions including trigonometric functions (even for complex numbers,) factoring and primality testing, and base conversions. * Unit Conversion between thousands of unit types with a huge built-in data file. * Date/time math (add offsets to dates, find out intervals between times,) timezone conversions, and user-modifiable date formats. * Translates between several human languages, including English, French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Korean, Japanese, Russian, Chinese, Swedish, and Arabic. * Calculates historical buying power of the U.S. dollar and British pound. * Calculates exchange rates between most of the world's currencies. HTH --Dethe "Say what you like about C++, but it's uninitialized variables will always hold a special place in my heart. In a world where we define *everything* concretely it is the last refuge of the undefined. It's the programmer's Wild West, the untamed frontier." --Bjorn Stroustrap -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20050215/88783359/smime.bin From florian at reichl.net Wed Feb 16 08:38:01 2005 From: florian at reichl.net (florian@reichl.net) Date: Wed Feb 16 08:40:05 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Easy to use GUI Message-ID: <6036539$11085388644212f5f0804198.77099071@config19.schlund.de> Hello everybody, I'm looking for a GUI that can be easily used by my students (and by me, of course ;-) That means that I'm looking for a GUI that * does not have to be powerful * shall have some easy to use "components" like text fields and buttons * that is easy to use for SMALL in school projects I'd would be very happy with some recommendations. Some code examples would be perfect. Thanks a lot for your support! Best regards, Florian From dragoncow2 at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 08:43:23 2005 From: dragoncow2 at gmail.com (Nicholas Wheeler) Date: Wed Feb 16 08:43:26 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Easy to use GUI In-Reply-To: <6036539$11085388644212f5f0804198.77099071@config19.schlund.de> References: <6036539$11085388644212f5f0804198.77099071@config19.schlund.de> Message-ID: <9047620b050215234362c8dc9c@mail.gmail.com> I would suggest AnyGUI. http://anygui.sf.net. It's a fairly simple GUI/frontend. On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:38:01 +0100, florian@reichl.net wrote: > > Hello everybody, > > I'm looking for a GUI that can be easily used by my students (and by me, > of course ;-) > > That means that I'm looking for a GUI that > > * does not have to be powerful > * shall have some easy to use "components" like text fields and buttons > * that is easy to use for SMALL in school projects > > I'd would be very happy with some recommendations. > Some code examples would be perfect. > > Thanks a lot for your support! > > Best regards, > Florian > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -- Nicholas Wheeler Systems Administrator Development InfoStructure From jhrsn at pitt.edu Wed Feb 16 14:13:55 2005 From: jhrsn at pitt.edu (Jim Harrison) Date: Wed Feb 16 14:11:24 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Easy to use GUI In-Reply-To: <6036539$11085388644212f5f0804198.77099071@config19.schlund.de> Message-ID: on 2/16/05 2:38 AM, florian@reichl.net at florian@reichl.net wrote: > I'm looking for a GUI that can be easily used by my students (and by me, > of course ;-) > > That means that I'm looking for a GUI that > > * does not have to be powerful > * shall have some easy to use "components" like text fields and buttons > * that is easy to use for SMALL in school projects This probably isn't exactly what you're looking for, but you may find it useful: http://www.ferg.org/easygui/index.html EasyGUI packages a useful subset of Tkinter windows and dialogs in a form that's very easy to incorporate into traditional Python programs. Jim Harrison From kent37 at tds.net Wed Feb 16 14:37:38 2005 From: kent37 at tds.net (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed Feb 16 14:37:40 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Easy to use GUI In-Reply-To: <6036539$11085388644212f5f0804198.77099071@config19.schlund.de> References: <6036539$11085388644212f5f0804198.77099071@config19.schlund.de> Message-ID: <42134CA2.3080000@tds.net> Tkinter seems to be pretty easy to use for simple GUIs. Here is a tutorial with lots of simple examples: http://www.ferg.org/thinking_in_tkinter/index.html A good reference with a few simple examples is http://www.pythonware.com/library/tkinter/introduction/index.htm Kent florian@reichl.net wrote: > Hello everybody, > > I'm looking for a GUI that can be easily used by my students (and by me, > of course ;-) > > That means that I'm looking for a GUI that > > * does not have to be powerful > * shall have some easy to use "components" like text fields and buttons > * that is easy to use for SMALL in school projects > > I'd would be very happy with some recommendations. > Some code examples would be perfect. > > Thanks a lot for your support! > > Best regards, > Florian > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Feb 16 17:50:31 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Wed Feb 16 17:50:33 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] New Functional Geometry Message-ID: <95d3d921b3.921b395d3d@optonline.net> Patrick Logan's weblog, digested on PlanetPython, points to what seems to be a very interesting treatise on geometry and functional programming: http://patricklogan.blogspot.com/2005/02/new-functional-geometry.html There seems to be some consensus, or at least general interest, in graphics programming as a means to some ends in an educational setting. Apple is at 88 this morning. On pace. So while I have unilaterally decided my stock is high, I am composing in my head a short manifesto on the subject of graphics programming in an educational setting - on why some general consensus on this makes so much sense, and how it might be put in some historical context and given more weight. The central figure in my thinking being Felix Klein. http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Klein.html Hope to have something up on this over the weekend. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Thu Feb 17 02:10:35 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu Feb 17 02:10:38 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] New Functional Geometry In-Reply-To: <95d3d921b3.921b395d3d@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20050217011037.27DAC1E4004@bag.python.org> > There seems to be some consensus, or at least general interest, in > graphics programming as a means to some ends in an educational > setting. > Yes, and I would add under the heading of "graphics programming" the use of filters, other algorithms, to process pictures as arrays, i.e. to do image processing. The PIL tutorial gets into this some, and it's used in Mathematica resources as well. Yesterday I attended a presentation on optics in biomedicine. Image processing is very much the name of the game in that field -- and of course many others as well. Kirby From lac at strakt.com Fri Feb 18 17:12:23 2005 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri Feb 18 17:12:33 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: (financial calculation) - using units In-Reply-To: Message from Christian Mascher of "Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:51:34 +0100." <421260D6.9080404@gmx.de> References: <20050213110004.2C4CD1E4014@bag.python.org> <421260D6.9080404@gmx.de> Message-ID: <200502181612.j1IGCNeW021826@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> I think what you want is the traits package from SciPy (from Enthought). Paper here: http://python.fyxm.net/pycon/papers/traits.html Unfortunately, the code has moved, and I don't know where it has gone. Laura In a message of Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:51:34 +0100, Christian Mascher writes: >I think as a physicist, don't know how they do it in finances. > >BTW, how does one express units of measure in Python/programming? >Calculations in applications aren't just about numbers. For instance, >how could one express equations like > 10000 cm^2 == 1 m^2 > 1000 g == 0.001 t >in a programming language? Another point would be the inclusion of a >measure of accuracy: >For a physicist or engineer > 1 cm != 1.00 cm >because the first could be 0.9 cm, the second couldn't, beeing more >accurate. > >Greetings, > >Christian From lac at strakt.com Fri Feb 18 17:39:27 2005 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri Feb 18 17:39:37 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Easy to use GUI In-Reply-To: Message from Nicholas Wheeler of "Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:43:23 EST." <9047620b050215234362c8dc9c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6036539$11085388644212f5f0804198.77099071@config19.schlund.de> <9047620b050215234362c8dc9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200502181639.j1IGdRgY022003@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:43:23 EST, Nicholas Wheeler writes: >I would suggest AnyGUI. http://anygui.sf.net. It's a fairly simple GUI/fr >ontend. > Anygui is unfinished, and unlikely to be finished in the foreseeable future. There are many bugs left. Pythoncard is designed to fill the niche you are looking for, but I still prefer tkinter myself. Laura From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Feb 18 21:50:30 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Feb 18 21:50:31 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Teaching RSA with Python In-Reply-To: <200502181639.j1IGdRgY022003@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20050218205030.5C1261E4004@bag.python.org> Yo edu-siggers! >From time to time over the years, I've hit this list with my evolving understanding of RSA and how best to teach it -- RSA being a well-known algorithm for encrypting a message to Bob with Bob's public key, perhaps signing it with my own secret one, such that only Bob is able to decrypt my message, and, upon decrypting the appended sig with my public key, confirms it came from me. My latest attempt along these lines is chronicled on a list for community college math teachers, and rounds out a thread (started by another subscriber) about Euclid's Extended Algorithm (EEA), a variation on the simple gcd algorithm (EA). RSA uses EEA in one of the steps. Here's the thread, with my latest stuff on RSA posted today (Feb 18, 2005): http://www.mathforum.com/epigone/mathedcc/yaughyrfly This post links, in turn, to actual Python source code at my 4dsolutions.net web site. I've been developing this material for Saturday Academy, which offers an extraordinary curriculum to pre-college age students. One difference in this latest representation is I rely on the mx module to test for an integer's primality, which tests may include using Miller-Rabin's. This makes for less clutter and snappier performance (although speed is not a goal here, more transparency and cogent expression -- which is where Python comes in). Kirby Adjunct Faculty Portland State University From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Fri Feb 18 22:06:11 2005 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Fri Feb 18 22:06:15 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Teaching RSA with Python In-Reply-To: <20050218205030.5C1261E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Kirby Urner wrote: > From time to time over the years, I've hit this list with my evolving > understanding of RSA and how best to teach it -- RSA being a well-known > algorithm for encrypting a message to Bob with Bob's public key, perhaps > signing it with my own secret one, such that only Bob is able to decrypt > my message, and, upon decrypting the appended sig with my public key, > confirms it came from me. Hi Kirby, Awesome! You might want to take a look at some similar work; the folks who do SICP have as one of their first homework assignments an RSA implementation project: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/psets/ps3/readme.html I think I have some of this implementation translated into Python on my laptop; I'll try hunting for it when I get home. From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Feb 18 22:38:12 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Feb 18 22:38:14 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Teaching RSA with Python In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050218213812.60BC11E4002@bag.python.org> > Hi Kirby, > > Awesome! You might want to take a look at some similar work; the folks > who do SICP have as one of their first homework assignments an RSA > implementation project: > > http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/psets/ps3/readme.html > > I think I have some of this implementation translated into Python on my > laptop; I'll try hunting for it when I get home. > Thanks Danny. I just eyeballed the code from SICP. I notice the EEA is not explicitly mentioned, and the code for inverting e mod phi(N) is left to the reader: ;;;(define (solve-ax+by=1 a b)...) you must complete this procedure ;;; Actual RSA encryption and decryption Also, a simple Fermat filter is used to find primes -- small chance of a Carmichael squeaking through (Miller-Rabin is stronger). That's OK though -- at least it's not a black box, as it is with mx.Number.Integer (I'd need to expound on Miller-Rabin elsewhere [1]). This is the kind of output I'm displaying. Running the very same demo encrypts/decrypts the very same message, but with different public keys. Interim steps give a sense of what's happening -- but of course this'd all make more sense with accompanying hand-waving with Q&A: >>> rsa.demo() hello world --> m=126207244316550804821666916 Two primes: p=4443976789171856903 q=1026026455556943437 ~pow(N,1/3)= 1658224956244 N=4559637753571326430861967232228995611 phi(N)=4559637753571326425391963987500195272 Euler: pow(m, phi(N)+1, N)= 126207244316550804821666916 e=3 phiN mod e = 1 e=3 d=3039758502380884283594642658333463515 d*e mod phiN = 1 c=pow(m,e,N)=441047618940110319203973658343498176 newm=pow(c,d,N)=126207244316550804821666916 126207244316550804821666916 --> plaintext=hello world >>> rsa.demo() hello world --> m=126207244316550804821666916 Two primes: p=3875764993730130869 q=2666745125460919361 ~pow(N,1/3)= 2178276378256 N=10335677404461897184814024551585854709 phi(N)=10335677404461897178271514432394804480 Euler: pow(m, phi(N)+1, N)= 126207244316550804821666916 e=3 phiN mod e = 1 d=6890451602974598118847676288263202987 d*e mod phiN = 1 c=pow(m,e,N)=7817547120775391367740832023016453897 newm=pow(c,d,N)=126207244316550804821666916 126207244316550804821666916 --> plaintext=hello world [1] e.g. see ISBN 0-387-95584-4 pg. 121 (search ISBN in amazon.com). From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Feb 20 00:25:51 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Feb 20 00:25:53 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050219232552.A97E61E4004@bag.python.org> I started with a reminder of how Python comes with this huge standard library, but then is routinely supplemented with still more 3rd party libraries. Case in point: Pygeo -- it depends on Numeric (very wide spread) and VPython (less wide spread but still popular). We all installed Pygeo and played with the examples for awhile (Islamic Patterns especially). I extolled the virtues of open source yet again: you may learn from my friend Arthur's source code, just how one throws together an app of this nature. Then I dove head first into a detailed exposition of RSA, using my rsa.py and talking about Bob, Alice and Eve, per usual. Then we dove into vectors for awhile: translation, rotation and scaling being the big 3 computer graphics transformations. I started constructing a vector class, then switched to a fully developed one. That led us back to POV-Ray and some pre-rendered polyhedra downloaded off the netlib library. That took me out to the Internet and George Hart's site (georgehart.com), where we took some time with VRML views of Archimedeans (13), Platonics (5) and Johnson polys (92). That got me into talking about stereo and cross-your-eyes freeviewing techniques (Springie went 3D over this last week, but I couldn't find my stash of glasses). We checked some examples at grunch.net/snelson Then I let them play and explore, handing out evaluations, certificates of completion. My own assessment: I dropped the ball a few times in this final class. The RSA stuff was a reach and needs work. I'm not going to abandon that effort. I think I at least got the gist of it communicated. I had this whole rap about Calculus Mountain and how I was taking a path *around* it to give 'em a sneak preview of stuff usually hidden on the other side. I invoked a scene from 'Lord of the Rings' -- wouldn't been better to have played the actual clip (trying to get over those mountains, before opting for the way beneath: Moria). The vector part was weak and my attempts to connect back to the pre-written stuff was clunky. But the biggest and most important omission was this: I totally spaced diving into J, which I was saving as a kind of mind-expanding farewell experience, a telling reminder that the world of computer languages is big and full of interesting animals. I could feel the void, like the class had ended too soon, with me short on material. That's why. Next time, I need to have a notebook with a script. I'm glad I get to run through this same course again come April. I'll be rereading my notes here on edu-sig, polishing, making things connect better -- provided anyone signs up that is. The weather is getting nice and it's getting harder to imagine anyone willingly spending so many hours on such sunny days in a darkened computer lab. I likely won't do as detailed a post mortem on each and every segment next time. This was a good experience though. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Feb 20 03:57:10 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Feb 20 03:57:21 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 6 In-Reply-To: <20050219232552.A97E61E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0IC600AVLW7JXG@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Kirby Urner > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 6:26 PM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 6 > > Then we dove into vectors for awhile: translation, rotation and scaling > being the big 3 computer graphics transformations. I started constructing > a > vector class, then switched to a fully developed one. That led us back to > POV-Ray and some pre-rendered polyhedra downloaded off the netlib library. """ Gentlemen! The course of lectures which I now begin will be an immediate continuation of, and a supplement to, my course of last Winter. My purpose now, as it was then, is to gather together all the mathematics that you studied during your student years, insofar as this could e of interest for the future teacher, and in particular, so show its bearing on the business of school instruction. """ Felix Klein, Elementary Mathematics from and Advanced Standpoint, 1908 Klein being a Great Mind in mathematics at the dawn of modernity, who turned his attention, intellect and energy to the problem of education at the "school" level. To me, he is a great redactor of modern mathematical ideas to his day, and in that sense in the spirit of Euclid. And what Klein prescribes in the end sounds much like a primer on the underlying mathematics and ideas which we now know as the fundamentals of computer vector graphics. Except that we tend to know these ideas, and teach them, out of the their historical and intellectual context. And there is an argument that one cannot truly understand modern intellectual sensibility without some grasp of these ideas, at least in their spirit. Klein also being instrumental in opening his University's math department to women. And apparently, in the eyes of his students, living up his essential ideal as a teacher - "Never be dull" Side-trip: The quaternion: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Quaternion.html Quaternions - mid-1800's idea extending the concepts of so-called imaginary numbers to new dimensions, and becoming the basis for the development of vector mathematics, mathematical physics, and - in some sense modernity - itself. And a fundamental tool in the mathematics of 3d computer graphics and probably known most commonly now in that context - but too often - out of its historical context, and without understanding of its historical significance. So my short manifesto is only ratifying the importance of where I think Kirby is already going and what he is already doing. Computer graphics, good. Computer graphics with pretense, better. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Feb 20 04:23:57 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Feb 20 04:23:59 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 6 In-Reply-To: <0IC600AVLW7JXG@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050220032358.43F2A1E4004@bag.python.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 6:57 PM > To: 'Kirby Urner'; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 6 > ... > And what Klein prescribes in the end sounds much like a primer on the > underlying mathematics and ideas which we now know as the fundamentals of > computer vector graphics. Except that we tend to know these ideas, and > teach them, out of the their historical and intellectual context. Yeah, I wondered if you were referring to Quaternions and see from your concluding quote that you were. As it happens, the "more fully developed vector class" I was describing is pretentious in just this way: if you multiply by a scalar, the vector elongates or shrinks, like any good little vector. But if you try to multiply by another vector, well then, both suddenly become quaternions at that point -- though the result is returned as a vector. def __mul__(self, other): """ Might be just scalar multiplication, but if the arg is another vector, let's go through the motions of quaternion * quaternion """ if type(other) == type(self): # treat mul as quaternion mul # (v1 x v2) + (s1*v2) + (s2*v1) newv = self.cross(other) + (self.s * other) + (other.s * self) # s1*s2 - v1.v2 where s1 is self.s, v1 is self.v newv.s = (self.s * other.s) - self.dot(other) return newv if type(other) in [type(1.0), type(1)]: # or do scalar mul return Vector3d(self.x * other, self.y * other, self.z * other) __rmul__ = __mul__ http://www.4dsolutions.net/satacad/pytools/ -- see vector.py But I didn't get into this at all with the kids today. There's some excellent book on the history of vectors, one of those Dover books -- talks about how the Gibbs-Heaviside approach gradually took hold and that's what we generally taught in the 1900s. But computer gaming helped quaternions make a come back. I used to post about this stuff quite a bit -- buried in the Math Forum archives probably. Yeah, here's the book, listed in the bibliography on that Quaternions page at MathWorld: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0486679101/ Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Feb 20 15:45:51 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Feb 20 15:46:42 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 6 In-Reply-To: <0IC600IQ5XFX5Z@mta20.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IC7001JUT0MQT@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > > And what Klein prescribes in the end sounds much like a primer on the > > underlying mathematics and ideas which we now know as the fundamentals > of > > computer vector graphics. Except that we tend to know these ideas, and > > teach them, out of the their historical and intellectual context. > > Yeah, I wondered if you were referring to Quaternions and see from your > concluding quote that you were. A good deal more to it than that. I am presenting Klein's ideas, not my own. So I will indulge myself by allowing myself some long quotes from the introduction to Volume II of his lectures at a summer teachers' colloquium, on Geometry - as I am not aware of this material up anywhere on the Web. """ ...I shall draw attention more than is usually done to the historical development of the science, to the accomplishments of the great pioneers. I hope, by discussions of this sort, to further, as I like to say, your general mathematical culture: alongside of knowledge of details, as these are supplied by the special lectures, there should be a grasp of the subject-matter and of historical relationship """ While Klein's ideas, they are ideas to which I prescribe. And I am proposing Klein himself, now, as such a pioneer. And noticing the vacuum of historical context that seems to prevail when approaching a subject like computer graphics and its mathematical underpinnings. To some of us, that historical context is perhaps its most engaging aspect. And while I am not asking that those of us with such a sensibility be allowed to dominate the proceedings, allowing this sensibility a sense of inclusion in those proceedings would seem to be to everyone's benefit. More Klein -- """ I advocate here, as always in such general lectures, a tendency which I like best to designate by the phrase 'fusion of arithmetic and geometry' - meaning by arithmetic, as is usual in the schools, the field which includes not merely the theory of integers, but also the whole of algebra and analysis. """ Klein is advocating this a half century before the developments that brought us the computer screen. The ability now to actualize and enliven - "not be dull" - this approach having been enhanced dramatically by these developments. And other than some pockets of practice in some Saturday academies ;) , largely ignored - as far as I can tell. More Klein - """ It has long been the custom in the schools as well as the university, first to study the plane and them, entirely separated from it, the geometry of space. On this account space perception, which we possess originally, is stunted. In contrast to this the 'fusionists' wish to treat the plane and space together, in order not to restrict our thinking artificially to two dimensions. """ Bucky and Klein seem to be on the same page, here. More Klein - """ Last semester I endeavored always to enliven the abstract discussions of arithmetic, algebra, and analysis by means of figures and graphic methods, which bring the things nearer to the individual and often make clear to him, for the first time, why he should be interested in them. Similarly I shall now, from the beginning, accompany space perception, which of course, will hold first place, with analytic formulas, which facilitate in the highest degree the precise formulation of geometric facts. """ IOW, the pictures aren't effective without the analytics, and vice versa. What this means to me, among other things, is "code as text". Something like PyGeo, for example, is - IMO - *only* interesting as an Open Source project, with the underlying analytics exposed. I could actually gone on a bit more, but this is getting out of hand in terms of length.... Art > > As it happens, the "more fully developed vector class" I was describing is > pretentious in just this way: if you multiply by a scalar, the vector > elongates or shrinks, like any good little vector. But if you try to > multiply by another vector, well then, both suddenly become quaternions at > that point -- though the result is returned as a vector. > > def __mul__(self, other): > """ > Might be just scalar multiplication, but if the arg is another > vector, let's go through the motions of quaternion * quaternion > """ > if type(other) == type(self): # treat mul as quaternion mul > # (v1 x v2) + (s1*v2) + (s2*v1) > newv = self.cross(other) + (self.s * other) + (other.s * self) > # s1*s2 - v1.v2 where s1 is self.s, v1 is self.v > newv.s = (self.s * other.s) - self.dot(other) > return newv > > if type(other) in [type(1.0), type(1)]: # or do scalar mul > return Vector3d(self.x * other, self.y * other, self.z * > other) > > __rmul__ = __mul__ > > http://www.4dsolutions.net/satacad/pytools/ -- see vector.py > > But I didn't get into this at all with the kids today. > > There's some excellent book on the history of vectors, one of those Dover > books -- talks about how the Gibbs-Heaviside approach gradually took hold > and that's what we generally taught in the 1900s. But computer gaming > helped quaternions make a come back. I used to post about this stuff > quite > a bit -- buried in the Math Forum archives probably. > > Yeah, here's the book, listed in the bibliography on that Quaternions page > at MathWorld: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0486679101/ > > Kirby > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Feb 20 16:45:09 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:45:19 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 6 In-Reply-To: <20050219232552.A97E61E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0IC700CHKVRHLJ@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > Behalf Of Kirby Urner > We all installed Pygeo and played with the examples for awhile (Islamic > Patterns especially). Those are from a book called Islamic Patterns by Keith Critchlow, who I think you told be worked with Fuller, What I am playing with there in my own mind - and just playing, nothing very well achieved - are algorithms as patterns realizing visual patterns. I do a "drawing" in a non-algorithmic manner, sort of how one might draw it by hand, and then try to duplicate the same drawing taking an algorithmic approach. Meant something to me at the time, but as I say, wouldn't expect that something would be communicated by what is actually there. As it happens had lunch yesterday with an Islamic friend. Who was explaining to me something about yesterday as a Holy Day in the faith, but one in which Sunni and Shiite practice and ideas diverge vehemently, it being a holiday having something to do with the succession to the Prophet, which is in particular, apparently, the branches diverge. And why it seems to be a day of fraternal fighting. He was also trying to convince me it was an important Jewish holiday, because I believe in the context of the event being celebrated in the Islamic faith, it was considered to coincide with an event in the Jewish calendar. Wasn't aware of yesterday as a significant day in the Jewish calendar, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't. Python. I it was really a business discussion. He has a technology background. Oracle sys admin mostly. But he has lost touch as a hands on guy, is having trouble making a living, and this was something of a strategy session. He wanted me to look at a product that he is interested in supporting and selling. It's a Business Mapping tool, part of a Business Process Management suite developed out of New Zealand. Hot stuff. And we start it up, and I see in the status bar, quite out of the blue "...initializing Python". More digging, it is developed in Delphi, with Python embedded as a glue piece, and with a wonderful little tool to walk people who may not know Python through the process of writing Python glue scripts. Anyway... Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Feb 20 17:00:45 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Feb 20 17:00:48 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 6 In-Reply-To: <0IC7001JUT0MQT@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050220160047.791B71E4004@bag.python.org> Arthur: > More Klein - > > """ > It has long been the custom in the schools as well as the university, > first to study the plane and them, entirely separated from it, the > geometry of space. On this account space perception, which we possess > originally, is stunted. In contrast to this the 'fusionists' wish to treat > the plane and space together, in order not to restrict our thinking > artificially to two dimensions. > """ > > Bucky and Klein seem to be on the same page, here. > Indeed, thanks for the ammo (WMI-style). Could I bother you to decorate that with more bibliographic tags (including page number), so I can use it elsewhere as a formal citation? Resonates with my "Beyond Flatland" meme, i.e. lets start with full blown spatial geometry, as that's the world in which we live our everyday lives. The plane (especially the infinitely extended infinitely thin one) is a relative abstraction, a kind of ancient geek (greek) metaphysics. That being said, it's fun to have a 2D Python vector class for painting flatly in POV-Ray or VPython, with the camera aiming directly at the XY canvas, offset from the origin by some -Z (in POV-ray, -Z is towards the viewer). My approach (I think pretty standard) is to keep the vectors innocent of POV-Ray, VRML or any output description. Instead, have a "writer" class that takes vectors as args, and writes accordingly (e.g. in VRML2). Best for the user is if the various writers share a lot of the same API, i.e. for an edge in space, you want 2 vectors (the endpoints), and for a polygon, you want the vertices going around in a list. Euler's V,F,E cover the basics. In my rbf.py, I made entire polyhedra subject to operator overloading, i.e. if you go icosa * 2, it doubles in size (edgewise = an 8-folding in volume). Or add a vector to it, and it translates. I called it rbf.py after Fuller and, true to form, set the CCP tetrahedron to volume 1 (makes for some nice numbers in the others). BTW, I submitted a proposal to OSCON aimed at making Fuller-FOSS links more explicit, with a focus on Elastic Interval Geometry (Java big), Python in the classroom (ala some of my experiments, various listservs), and a more general push to open source global geospatial data (GIS), with reference to Fuller's map (e.g. URL: http://themutemap.3d.openmute.org/modules/news/ ). However, based on feedback to date, I'm not especially hopeful this'll fly. People may not be ready for it. Oh well, there's always 2006. I haven't given up though. Kirby PS: got an email from Tim this morning -- you may recall his blog for Fr Bob, based on Pyblosxom with a lot of added features he wrote (including basing it in Apache's mod_python) -- and these days he's getting into Twisted, writing new IM infrastructure based on XML-RPC. An 8th grader you may recall. Pretty impressive. From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Feb 20 18:01:16 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Feb 20 18:01:26 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 6 In-Reply-To: <0IC70064QWHAS2@mta22.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IC700D42ZAB0X@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > Indeed, thanks for the ammo (WMI-style). Could I bother you to decorate > that with more bibliographic tags (including page number), so I can use it > elsewhere as a formal citation? Felix Klein Elementary Mathematics From An Advanced Standpoint Geometry Translated from the Third German Edition, Dover Publications, Copyright 1939 There is a separate book, which actually precedes it, on Algebra and Analysis, which I have but can't put my hands on at the moment. My wife likes to antique, and go to Estate sales. And I like to tag along, mostly looking at books. I picked this up and other good stuff at a sale in my area. There are and have long been a number of IBM research type facilities in our area, and these books were part of a collection of an IBMer that I was lucky enough to come across. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Feb 20 18:19:26 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Feb 20 18:19:37 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] python satacad: class 6 Message-ID: <0IC8006I404N44@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > Indeed, thanks for the ammo (WMI-style). Could I bother you to > decorate that with more bibliographic tags (including page number), so > I can use it elsewhere as a formal citation? >Felix Klein >Elementary Mathematics From An Advanced Standpoint Geometry >Translated from the Third German Edition, Dover Publications, Copyright >1939 Oh yeah. All the quotes are from Klein's introduction - Pages 1 and 2. The book itself is some 200 dense pages, in 3 parts. I. The Simplest Geometric Manifolds II. Geometric Transformations III. Systematic discussion of Geometry and Its Foundations The resonance between the material in general, and the mathematics that has become second nature to anyone doing vector-based computer graphics, is clear. The material does go beyond it, into non-euclidian geometries and the Theory of the Imaginary. Though I had fairly recently come across something by Frederick Lundh of Python Imaging Library fame on using Python's native complex type as an efficient means of accomplishing graphics transformations in 2d. And even understood what he was talking about - for a change;). Art From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Feb 21 21:51:44 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Feb 21 21:51:46 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Summary/Overview re Math Reform (my agenda -- Urner) In-Reply-To: <0IC8006I404N44@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050221205146.01A811E4003@bag.python.org> So I just started this thread on 'Calculus Mountain' on math-learn: http://www.mathforum.com/epigone/math-learn/slingsamwang Basically, I'm arguing that we should evolve the computer science track into an alternative numeracy track, skirting calculus mountain yet providing plenty of useful mathematics. This track will co-exist with, and compete with, the current precalc-calc track, which today monopolizes K-12 as the only gateway into college level technology tracks and careers. """ Let kids electing a discrete math and computer science track excel in their own direction, according to alternative criteria. College and corporate admissions officers should be open to this alternative mix of skills, which are on target for so many real world positions (I know this first hand). """ [ http://www.mathforum.com/epigone/math-learn/slingsamwang ] This isn't a new approach for me. I've long push a three-pronged agenda along these lines: I. Math through Programming -- use a computer language, esp one w/ an interactive shell, to explore concepts and help make them concrete [1] II. Math through Storytelling -- integrate better with the historical record, e.g. talk about the role of cryptography in warfare and commerce, or about the importance of 'ciphers' (Arabic algorithms) to the European Renaissance [2] III. Beyond Flatland -- integrate better with spatial geometry via computer graphics, especially around polyhedra and polyhedral numbers [3] The excerpt below is from a background paper I prepared in advance of my presentation at Pycon 2004 -- a presentation I was unable to make owing to family illness and an abortive sojourn in DC (I'm trying Pycon again this year, but I'm not formally presenting anything): """ And so I see the encroachment of computer science into the high schools as at least initially somewhat competetive with the traditional curriculum. For the first time in a very long time, the pre-college mathematics curriculum is getting a makeover from a neighboring discipline. The ecology is being disrupted. For example, there's potential here for computer science to be cast as an underdog, recruiting students (and teachers) who are dissatisfied with a mathematics track that seems to lack immediate relevance. Whereas the calculus will remain important, it's somewhat debatable whether a high degree of proficiency in integration by parts by the end of high school, is any more worthy a goal than mastery of regular expressions (both technical skills), especially if a conceptual grasp of the calculus is an element in both scenarios. """ [ http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/papers/15/ ] I consider all of this groundwork essentially complete and ready to withstand real world testing. I think the open source community is well positioned to assist with this agenda, and thanks to these links to the Fuller School, has a lot of leverage for raising living standards more generally, i.e. by focusing attention on an artifacts-and-technology based approach to social change. There're no political strings attached to this agenda, or if you find some, feel free to snip them, or attach others. We just want to improve the math-science-humanities curriculum all around. If that's seen as "liberal" (OK by me), then it's liberal in the sense of "liberal arts" i.e. it's about keeping an open mind, which in turn means keeping the vital shared knowledge base free and open source (a long term goal of serious scholarship -- not new to this era). Kirby Adjunct Faculty Portland State University [1] the ISETL curriculum was consciously developed along these lines (thanks to Tim Peters for alerting me to this). APL/J have always been promulgated with an eye towards math pedagogy (Iverson himself helped me with my 'Jiving in J' paper: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/Jlang.html ). Scheme and Python have likewise made forays in this direction (thanks to Danny Yoo for pointing me to that RSA-in-Scheme web page). [2] Here's an interesting quote from Bucky Fuller. He's speaking off the top of his head, i.e. this is the transcript of an audio recording: =========== 034 The word cipher has secret connotations for this reason. Because people used it, they needed to use it, you understand "I've got to do my own calculations" but if I get caught so I must be very secretive. Gradually the significance of the cipher permeates society, particularly the young student world that was literate. So the students of Northern Italy and Southern Germany began to realize more and more the significance of the cipher, and the positioning of numbers to do their own calculations. Young peoples' faces are less familiar than the older peoples' faces, and so the young people could get away with what the older people couldn't, so approximately the year 1200, 500 years after the Arabic numerals came into the Mediterranean world, that the treatise was written, that's 1200, and 300 years later it was impossible to ever again enforce the prohibition against use of the cipher. And this is a wonderful date we're talking about 1500, five hundred years ago. And this is exactly when Copernicus comes in. Here was Copernicus, suddenly, with the capability to calculate; and calculating the positions and some of the interrelationships of these, what we call the planets, he came to the conclusion that our earth was also a planet, and behaving in relationship to the sun the way the other planets were. 035 And this opened up a completely new excitation of humanity. =========== >From 'Everything I Know' transcript of the audio tracks, 1997 (the actual recording was made in the 1975). [3] To the polyhedral numbers thread (which connects to Pascal's Triangle ala the 'Book of Numbers' by Conway and Guy), I add Bucky Fuller's concentric hierarchy in the CCP sphere packing context. Basically, 12 balls around a nuclear ball in the CCP conformation define a * cuboctahedron (volume 20) the voronoi cells of which are * rhombic dodecahedra (volume 6) embedded in which sphere-embracing cells are * an octahedron as long face diagonals (volume 4) and * its dual cube as short face diagonals (volume 3) in which cube are embedded * two tetrahedra as face diagonals (each of volume 1) Animated GIF: http://www.grunch.net/synergetics From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Feb 23 18:37:12 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Wed Feb 23 18:37:15 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Summary/Overview re Math Reform (my agenda -- Urner) Message-ID: <416d95416df0.416df0416d95@optonline.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby Urner Date: Monday, February 21, 2005 3:51 pm Subject: [Edu-sig] Summary/Overview re Math Reform (my agenda -- Urner) > > So I just started this thread on 'Calculus Mountain' on math-learn: > http://www.mathforum.com/epigone/math-learn/slingsamwang You're quite right AFAIAK. For myself, when the mountain looked liked Calc2, followed by Calc3,Calc4,Calc5,Calc6 I simply traversed down and found a more interesting looking mountain - with respect to my own sensiblities. Shame. My friend Felix Klein was not fully prescient here. Calc was just being introduced into mainstream curriculum at the time of his writing, and though this was not something that he himself was activiely behind, he seemed to be comfortable enough with it. > Basically, I'm arguing that we should evolve the computer science > track into > an alternative numeracy track, skirting calculus mountain yet > providingplenty of useful mathematics. > > This track will co-exist with, and compete with, the current > precalc-calc > track, which today monopolizes K-12 as the only gateway into > college level > technology tracks and careers. I've lost the trail of how it came to be that calc so thoroughly dominated math education once one gets past the fundamentals. But I am interested in that kind of thing and would like to pick up that trail. My own (out of fashion) sense, is that we will wondering one day how comp sci ed got bifurcated from math ed so suddenly, completely, dramatically and it appears - realistically - irreversibly. Integrated math/ comp. sci did threaten to revolutionize the math tract. I guess one theory: the revolution was averted by putting comp sci on its own tract. >From reaction here, it seems that technology folks in general are not uncomfortable with that solution. But I keep thinking that is because they rightly fear a comp sci track in the service to Calc1,Calc2,Calc3, Calc4,Calc5,Calc6 track, rather than one which leads a revolutionaized math track - developed with the computational power of the machine as a given. Or somethinf to that effect. Art From sandysj at juno.com Wed Feb 23 23:53:41 2005 From: sandysj at juno.com (Jeff Sandys) Date: Wed Feb 23 23:55:02 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Uints in Python Message-ID: <20050223.145347.20877.178910@webmail21.nyc.untd.com> If you are interested in doing units with Python, Unum by Pierre Denis is the package for you. It is compatible NumPy. http://home.tiscali.be/be052320/Unum.html >>> from unum.units import * >>> distance = 1 * MILE >>> distance.as(NMILE) 0.868974082073 [nmi] >>> distance.as(M) 1609.34 [m] >>> height = 4 * M >>> area = height * distance >>> area 6437.36 [m2] >>> area.as(ARE) 64.3736 [a] (an ARE is a metric acre) I have had some arguements with Pierre with his implementation of CELSIUS. His resonable arguement is that you usually don't multiply temperatures (degrees squared has no meaning) and you are mostly concerned with temperature differences. But I think that when you ask for the conversion with "as" it should say that 1 degree Kelvin is -272.16 degrees Centigrade. I will redo the "as" method to take care of this. >>> space = 2.5 * K >>> space 2.5 [K] >>> delta_space = .5 * CELSIUS >>> space - delta_space 2.0 [deg C] >>> space.as(CELSIUS) 2.5 [deg C] It is a cool package that I highly recommend for educational Python. Thanks, Jeff Sandys ___________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From ehlersjp at msn.com Fri Feb 25 03:39:56 2005 From: ehlersjp at msn.com (Joseph Ehlers) Date: Fri Feb 25 03:40:04 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] High School Programming for Newbies Message-ID: Dear Python Community, I joined the Python Edu-Sig about a year ago and posed the question of what would be good for an Introductory High School Programming course. Your input guided my efforts and now my high school is finally going to offer programming courses starting next year; we currently do not offer any programming. We have permission for two classes and administration support for a third class a few years down the road. At the moment the course offerings are looking like this: 1.. The first semester class will probably be Visual Basic. Two reasons for this: 1). The GUI should hold students' attention quickly in this elective class and, 2). Every other high school in my metro area is offering Visual Basic. 2.. The second semester class is looking like it will be Python. Books are hard to find but I'm looking at, "Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner" by Michael Dawson, "Python Programming An Introduction to Computer Science" by John Zelle, and "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist Learning with Python" by Allen Downey, Jeffrey Elkner and Chris Meyers. Maybe I'll settle on one or a combination of the three. 3.. The next full year class will be AP Computer Science Java (This class won't happen for a few years however. I have to become more knowledgeable before I tackle three big fish at once). I have done a lot of research on this but I must confess that since I am not a programmer that most of the research results are over my head. My high school is not turning out programmers; we are just trying to expose students to computer science and programming and to help them think logically through problems. We are trying to prepare them for college computer science. From my research, Python's strengths seem to be: easy to learn, simple syntax, fun, allows students to spend time thinking about the problem versus fixing syntax, transitions nicely into Java, and develops logical thinking. All that sounds great, just what we are tying to accomplish and I can't wait for the course. (I'm finally getting to my question.) Now some people are telling me that we need to offer C++. Help! I don't think I can fit more into the curriculum and do justice to any one language. One of our goals is to offer AP Computer Science Java in the future and we want the students adequately prepared for that language. What is the opinion of the Python Edu-Sig community? Should we offer C++? And if so, where would it fit into the curriculum? Thank you. This community was very helpful in the past in steering me in the right direction. (Another strength of Python). You are helping shape new courses at the high school level. Your help is greatly appreciated. Joe Ehlers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20050224/0561c4eb/attachment.htm From jeff at elkner.net Fri Feb 25 14:10:32 2005 From: jeff at elkner.net (Jeffrey Elkner) Date: Fri Feb 25 14:04:45 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] High School Programming for Newbies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109337032.12757.21.camel@mdeicaza> Dear Mr. Ehlers, It was the College Board's decision to switch from Pascal to C++ that lead me to Python in the first place, since I found C++ to be an absolutely awful first language (the College Board eventually agreed, and C++ was soon replaced by Java as the language for the AP exam). Since you say that "My high school is not turning out programmers; we are just trying to expose students to computer science and programming and to help them think logically through problems..." there is no good reason to be using C++ in your curriculum. C/C++ will be part of a college CS program, but it need not and should not be part of a high school one, particularly one with the goals you describe. It would be interesting to find out why those that are telling you that you "need to offer C++" think this is the case. My guess is they are motivated by some idea of the "prevalence of C++ in the market" and are completely ignoring any pedagogical issues involved. I would suggest you reconsider the decision to use VB before Python. Python is a better language for learning programming ideas than VB is, and most high school VB courses I have seen really are just introductions to the Visual Studio environment and have *very* little to do with programming. Alan Gauld has an on-line web tutorial, "Learning to Program" (http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld/) which makes some use of Basic as well as Python. If you have an instructor who is really interested in doing so, I think a parallel approach (looking at solutions to problems in both Python and VB and comparing and contrasting the language features) would be more fruitful than a VB first approach. Hope this helps. On Thu, 2005-02-24 at 20:39 -0600, Joseph Ehlers wrote: > Now some people are telling me that we need to offer C++. Help! I > don?t think I can fit more into the curriculum and do justice to any > one language. One of our goals is to offer AP Computer Science Java > in the future and we want the students adequately prepared for that > language. What is the opinion of the Python Edu-Sig community? > Should we offer C++? And if so, where would it fit into the > curriculum? > > > Joe Ehlers -- Jeffrey Elkner Open Book Project From david at handysoftware.com Fri Feb 25 14:06:43 2005 From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy) Date: Fri Feb 25 14:06:31 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] High School Programming for Newbies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050225130643.GA5346@arno2> On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 08:39:56PM -0600, Joseph Ehlers wrote: > Dear Python Community, ... > My high school is not turning out programmers; we are just trying to > expose students to computer science and programming and to help them think > logically through problems. We are trying to prepare them for college > computer science. From my research, Python's strengths seem to be: easy > to learn, simple syntax, fun, allows students to spend time thinking about > the problem versus fixing syntax, transitions nicely into Java, and > develops logical thinking. All that sounds great, just what we are tying > to accomplish and I can't wait for the course. > > (I'm finally getting to my question.) Now some people are telling me that > we need to offer C++. Help! I don't think I can fit more into the > curriculum and do justice to any one language. One of our goals is to > offer AP Computer Science Java in the future and we want the students > adequately prepared for that language. What is the opinion of the Python > Edu-Sig community? Should we offer C++? And if so, where would it fit > into the curriculum? You summed up very well what you are trying to accomplish with your school's computer programming curriculum (teach logical thinking and problem solving, prepare for a transition into Java should the student go on to computer science in college) and you say that Python is meeting that need. So the question is, why are "some people" telling you that you need to offer C++? What need do they think is not being met that C++ can fill? If "they" are telling you that you need to offer C++, then the burden is on "them" to explain why. The only possible reason you give for C++ is to be adequately prepared for Java. So why not just offer Java instead of C++? Java is easier for new programmers. I am a professional software developer with years of experience programming in C++. About four years ago, my company (and every other company I am aware of) that was doing application development in C++ switched over to C# or Java (I did both). I haven't done any C++ development since. Switching from C++ to Java and C# at least doubled my productivity, and when I am allowed to use Python, that at least doubles my productivity over C# or Java. C and C++ are low-level lanaguages that are best left for low-level tasks such as device drivers, directly interfacing with the operating system, or things that require very high performance such as 3D graphics libraries (most programmers just use such libraries, they don't write their own). Sure, it may be educational to teach students C or C++ so they can appreciate the trials that the previous generation had to go through before we had decent high-level languages. Also teaching C or C++ can be helpful as part of a big picture overview that includes understanding the hardware and the operating system. Maybe those goals are what "they" had in mind when they recommended adding C++ to curriculum, but those are not what you said your goals were. Perhaps understanding the history, the hardware, and the OS at that advanced level is more of a college-level goal anyway. David H. From ajudkis at verizon.net Fri Feb 25 18:13:33 2005 From: ajudkis at verizon.net (Andy Judkis) Date: Fri Feb 25 18:13:32 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: High School Programming for Newbies (Joseph Ehlers) References: <20050225110003.6048C1E4009@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <001c01c51b5d$56a59d90$6501a8c0@Gandalf> Hi Joe et al, I've been reading this list for a month or so now, and was about to write my own introductory email, when your message came along, giving me a good opportunity to throw in my 2 cents. My background: I was an engineer in the telecomm and computer industries for over 20 years, including the last 5 or so programming in Java. My previous employer, an optical switch vendor called Tellium, closed its doors last year, and I made a long-contemplated move into teaching high school. I now teach a course called Computer Applications II to 10th graders at a "career academy" in Monmouth County, NJ. It's like a magnet school, for kids who are interested in careers in the health occupations. The school is competitive to get into, and the kids are generally bright, with no real discipline issues at all. I'm -very- fortunate to be starting my teaching career there. I was given carte blanche to make my own curriculum, and I chose to make it a sort of "serious computer literacy" course, basically teaching stuff I think is interesting and/or important. We learn some things about hardware and operating systems, some history of computers and the Internet, a fair bit of HTML and CSS (actually writing the tags, not using a WYSIWYG tool), a tiny bit of PHP, a bit of database and SQL . . . and some Python. The course is a 90 minutes a day, 5 days a week, for the semester. It's a required course, not an elective, so there's no self-selection of the students. Some are naturally enthusiastic about the subject, but many are not. I had no previous Python experience, and I'm not sure when or how I stumbled on it on the web -- but I read a bit and it seemed like a good fit. This past fall was the first time this course was offered. As things worked out, we had about 3 1/2 weeks for Python. I tried to give the kids at least a taste of it, and was only partially successful. I got some of my ideas and approaches from the Dawson book, and I liked it a lot. If I was going to teach an entire Python course in high school, I would be happy to use it. The most important thing is that it's -fun-. I got a desk copy of the Zelle book partway through the semester, and it looks to be more appropriate than Dawson for building the intellectual base for further work in the field -- certainly a worthy goal, but maybe better for college. You could do a lot worse than to start off with the Dawson approach and mix in material from Zelle once the fun factor has been clearly established. Another interesting book to look at is "Introduction to Computing and Programming in Python: A Multimedia Approach" by Mark Guzdial, which looks like it might split the difference somewhat -- more visual than Zelle, more intellectual than Dawson. It teaches Python (actually Jython. . . ) by using it to manipulate images and sounds, in a programming environment called JES. My original plan for our Python unit was to base it on the Livewires materials, but that immediately proved to be unworkable. It seemed to presume a level of willingness to dig in and figure things out that I just couldn't get from them -- and I think my kids are a bit above average in that area. Maybe the kids who sign up for the Livewires camp are already well-inclined towards programming? Maybe there's a lot more to the course than what's in the handouts on the web? I'd be interested to know more about how it's run, if anybody can tell me more. What I ended up doing for the unit was to use the "guessing game" problem, much as it was in the Livewires course, to get some of the basics of variables, looping, and branching down -- but I had to walk the kids through it, repeating things many times. We also used the Livewires module to do a little bit of very primitive graphics and animation. And that's all we got through. No lists, no dictionaries, no file I/O, no objects. . . And even then, a substantial minority of the kids (maybe 20%) still didn't really "get it" very well. A handful of kids totally got it and loved it, and I practically begged them to get the Dawson book and go on on their own. Obviously, your mileage will vary. I'd be interested to know a little more -- is your class an elective? What grade level? Best wishes, Andy Judkis ajudkis@verizon.net From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Feb 25 19:57:20 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Fri Feb 25 19:57:32 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] DrPython, redeaux Message-ID: <669ee166d977.66d977669ee1@optonline.net> I had checked in with DrPython early in its development cycle, and I know it to be prominently listed in the edu-sig page write-up of Python IDE's for with an educational slant. I had the opportunity to re-acquaint myself with it and its progress recently. I think it worth mentioning here for those who have not had the opportunity to have a look, that it a very actively developed project, led by folks working in the educational field. Well done, the essentials one would hope to find simply laid out, stable (even runs VPython scripts flawlessly), easily extensible in Python through an accesible API. Relies on and leverages off of what is available in wxPython, Developing an active user community, including something brewing with it at the U of Toronto. I am concluding that it to be the IDE I will recommend for use with PyGeo. About the lead developer: """ About Daniel Pozmanter I am a graduate of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. I hold a degree in Cognitive Science (BS. Magna Cum Laude). For the last two years of my undergraduate career, I taught Philosophy, Rhetoric, and Civics at a local alternative high school. This school, North Star, allows its students to take charge of their academic careers. This allows them the flexibility to approach their middle and high school years with the joy and focus of a college student. (In fact, many of the students take courses at the local colleges and universities). """ Art From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Feb 25 20:43:23 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Feb 25 20:43:26 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: High School Programming for Newbies (Joseph Ehlers) In-Reply-To: <001c01c51b5d$56a59d90$6501a8c0@Gandalf> Message-ID: <20050225194325.652DD1E4005@bag.python.org> > Obviously, your mileage will vary. I'd be interested to know a little > more -- is your class an elective? What grade level? > > Best wishes, > Andy Judkis > ajudkis@verizon.net My own class, which I've been archiving about, and you say you've been lurking, so this won't be news: is elective. More than that it's outside the public school system and it costs the parents extra. Plus it meets on a Saturday. So by definition I have more seriously motivated kids than average, which makes my job so much easier. Kirby From inxdr at yahoo.com.au Sat Feb 26 12:20:52 2005 From: inxdr at yahoo.com.au (Darren Payne) Date: Sat Feb 26 12:20:56 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 19, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <20050225110003.88EEC1E400A@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20050226112053.22037.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> Joe, I am a high school teacher in Australia and I have kept right away from C / C++. I feel it is simply too hard @ high school level. I think we have "spoken" before? I have taught Pascal, VB, Python and Java - as core languages over the years. I have also taught Prolog, Haskell and Scheme LISP - to demonstrate alternative thinking patterns in programming. All programming at high school level, in my experince, suffers because the GUI in VB is so damn good! I tend to agree that it doesn't encourage the best coding skills in students ... however it does allow them to focus on getting results - relatively quickly - and with the graphical components which are important to them - (hold attention, motivate etc). Python IS a GREAT language to start out with ... but simply put, the lack of GUI means only the most committed students get anything out of it without alot of coercing from me. I read Kirby's work with interest - however my experience is teenagers just aren't interested in math. Rather it is a chore that must be endured, a minimum standard society requires us to attain. Java ... well is some regards good, but honestly in my opinion - vastly over rated. It has so much "gumph" in it that it takes students 9 - 10 weeks before they begin to feel comfortable with it and mostly in this time you lose the majority of them. Once again a VB like GUI is required. The whole code in this, compile here, run and then work out what's wrong puts lots of students off - even when you give them a decent IDE (I like JCreator, JGRASP or BlueJ if you want to focus on OO programming) I see a moderate number of students (always boys) each year who will definitely become programmers / study computer science. I encourage these kids to look at Python and Haskell - and they tend to be the sort of person who can look beyond the GUI and want to learn how to really program. For the remainder of students who have chosen IT more for general interest I use VB (last year, 2004, we did Python, console based programs are really boring!). This year I have changed and moved to Gamemaker. I have read huge amounts of material advocating programming games as a way to encourage kids to think - (analyse, synthesise, evaluate, plan, design, manage, communicate) ... AND I have never seen such enthusiasm for programming, smiles from ear to ear - even the girls love it! BTW Gamemaker written in Delphi - I think - and has its roots in Pascal. Hope this helps regards Darren --- edu-sig-request@python.org wrote: > Send Edu-sig mailing list submissions to > edu-sig@python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > edu-sig-request@python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > edu-sig-owner@python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Edu-sig digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. High School Programming for Newbies (Joseph > Ehlers) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:39:56 -0600 > From: "Joseph Ehlers" > Subject: [Edu-sig] High School Programming for > Newbies > To: > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Python Community, > > > > I joined the Python Edu-Sig about a year ago and > posed the question of what would be good for an > Introductory High School Programming course. Your > input guided my efforts and now my high school is > finally going to offer programming courses starting > next year; we currently do not offer any > programming. We have permission for two classes and > administration support for a third class a few years > down the road. At the moment the course offerings > are looking like this: > > > > 1.. The first semester class will probably be > Visual Basic. Two reasons for this: 1). The GUI > should hold students' attention quickly in this > elective class and, 2). Every other high school in > my metro area is offering Visual Basic. > 2.. The second semester class is looking like it > will be Python. Books are hard to find but I'm > looking at, "Python Programming for the Absolute > Beginner" by Michael Dawson, "Python Programming An > Introduction to Computer Science" by John Zelle, and > "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist Learning > with Python" by Allen Downey, Jeffrey Elkner and > Chris Meyers. Maybe I'll settle on one or a > combination of the three. > 3.. The next full year class will be AP Computer > Science Java (This class won't happen for a few > years however. I have to become more knowledgeable > before I tackle three big fish at once). > > > I have done a lot of research on this but I must > confess that since I am not a programmer that most > of the research results are over my head. My high > school is not turning out programmers; we are just > trying to expose students to computer science and > programming and to help them think logically through > problems. We are trying to prepare them for college > computer science. From my research, Python's > strengths seem to be: easy to learn, simple syntax, > fun, allows students to spend time thinking about > the problem versus fixing syntax, transitions nicely > into Java, and develops logical thinking. All that > sounds great, just what we are tying to accomplish > and I can't wait for the course. > > > > (I'm finally getting to my question.) Now some > people are telling me that we need to offer C++. > Help! I don't think I can fit more into the > curriculum and do justice to any one language. One > of our goals is to offer AP Computer Science Java in > the future and we want the students adequately > prepared for that language. What is the opinion of > the Python Edu-Sig community? Should we offer C++? > And if so, where would it fit into the curriculum? > > > > Thank you. This community was very helpful in the > past in steering me in the right direction. > (Another strength of Python). You are helping shape > new courses at the high school level. Your help is > greatly appreciated. > > > > Joe Ehlers > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20050224/0561c4eb/attachment.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > > End of Edu-sig Digest, Vol 19, Issue 22 > *************************************** > ===== ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- regards Darren Payne Hurlstone Agricultural High School Ph: 9829 9222 Fax: 98292026 Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Feb 26 15:20:11 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Feb 26 15:20:20 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 19, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <20050226112053.22037.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0ICI00CENVTUDE@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > Behalf Of Darren Payne > > Python IS a GREAT language to start out with ... but > simply put, the lack of GUI means only the most > committed students get anything out of it without alot > of coercing from me. I read Kirby's work with interest > - however my experience is teenagers just aren't > interested in math. Rather it is a chore that must be > endured, a minimum standard society requires us to > attain. Are we wrong to impose that chore? Or is it a responsibility of the educational system? If a responsibility, is it fair of the computer science educational community to peal off from it? When they hold the best cards. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Feb 26 15:48:44 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Feb 26 15:49:51 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 19, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <20050226112053.22037.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0ICI00G39X5FBF@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > Behalf Of Darren Payne > > For the remainder of students who have chosen IT more > for general interest I use VB (last year, 2004, we did > Python, console based programs are really boring!). > This year I have changed and moved to Gamemaker. I > have read huge amounts of material advocating > programming games as a way to encourage kids to think > - (analyse, synthesise, evaluate, plan, design, > manage, communicate) ... AND I have never seen such > enthusiasm for programming, smiles from ear to ear - > even the girls love it! BTW Gamemaker written in > Delphi - I think - and has its roots in Pascal. I don't mean to be combative, but I do look forward to IT loosing its privileged status in this regard, "analyse, synthesise, evaluate, plan, design, manage, communicate" I would hope that would be occurring in all aspects of the curricula, but that in no aspect of the curricula could it be considered sufficient outside the context of the substance of the subject matter. Bottom line, games are being made. And what is being taught is something about how games are made. Fine. But let's not elevate beyond that. Should the rest of the staff allow themselves the same basis to judge their success? Smiles, and girls like it. Math teachers - poor suckers. Art From mholthouse at westwood.k12.ma.us Sat Feb 26 16:04:27 2005 From: mholthouse at westwood.k12.ma.us (M Holthouse) Date: Sat Feb 26 16:05:03 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] High School Programming for Newbies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050226100359.025d2ef8@pop.rcn.com> Joe's email got me thinking about the difference between "programming" and "computer science" courses at the high school level. I teach a one semester "Intro to Computer Science" elective, and then organize independent study programming projects for those who want to take the AP Java course the following year. The CS course is loosely based on the Dale & Lewis "Computer Science Illuminated" text, and I like the approach of progressing through * binary data representation (since it ties in some of their useless math - 2^n, log base 2, etc), * digital logic (with Boolean algebra and building with modules), * simple computer architecture illustrated with a machine language simulator, * assembly language with the PEP7 simulator introducing conditionals and very simple loops (which also touches on addressing and memory management), * C as a "higher level language" with data types and more complex looping * Python for "real programming", including primitive graphics with Zelle's package ...and then an overview operating systems, databases, networks, and AI This is an elective targeted mostly at juniors, but due to our relatively small size (800 students) and various scheduling constraints, I get a variety of students, many of whom are not dying to learn this stuff. Our goal is not to make them programmers in 20 weeks, but to give them a reasonable overview of the field so they can decide if they want to pursue (parts of) it more, and regardless of that make them more intelligent users of computers, better able to work with "computer people". The mix of other topics also lets some of the kids who are not natural programmers get their legs under them before jumping into the programming deep end and feeling left behind. Although not intentional, the progression of languages ends up being a real sales pitch for Python ("Wow, this is easy!"), and many of the programming-oriented students end up doing a final project with pygame. I've had students who later had to deal with C++ tell me they were happy to have had the brief (~2 week) intro to C, and often those who end up taking a Java course appreciate having been exposed first to other languages so they're not intimidated by the rather cryptic magic overhead of Java. Object-oriented purists object to this bottom-up approach, of course, but I find that the digital logic section where we build one bit adders and then replicate and assemble them to build 16-bit versions, and similarly, turn gobs of SR flip-flops into simple memories is a great way of introducing modularity and encapsulations, perhaps because it's less abstract than the top-down software focused approach. There's more info up on my class web site westwood.k12.ma.us/~mholthouse; I wonder if anyone has some experience with both approaches and has any experience to share? -Mark Holthouse From christian.mascher at gmx.de Sun Feb 27 12:17:11 2005 From: christian.mascher at gmx.de (Christian Mascher) Date: Sun Feb 27 12:17:23 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] How do I import from __future__ at startup? Message-ID: <4221AC37.2030406@gmx.de> Hello all, I managed to do this once, but I forgot. I want division always to be imported from __future__ at startup. Putting from __future__ import division in a file sitecustomize.py doesn't work (which I think is counterintuitive). Do I have to use PYTHONSTARTUP variable? Is there any way at all? I searched google and python.org but didn't find a quick answer to this. Perhaps somebody can help me out? Thanks, Christian From rsenra at acm.org Sun Feb 27 12:40:04 2005 From: rsenra at acm.org (Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra) Date: Sun Feb 27 12:36:32 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] How do I import from __future__ at startup? In-Reply-To: <4221AC37.2030406@gmx.de> References: <4221AC37.2030406@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050227084004.2244c5b0@Goku> [ Christian Mascher ] ----------------------------------------------- | I want division always to be imported from __future__ at startup. | Putting | from __future__ import division | in a file sitecustomize.py doesn't work (which I think is | counterintuitive). Do I have to use PYTHONSTARTUP variable? That certainly works for the interactive prompt, as follows: $ cat z.py from __future__ import division $ export PYTHONSTARTUP=/home/rodrigo/z.py $ python Python 2.4 (#1, Dec 1 2004, 00:03:22) [GCC 3.3.2 (Mandrake Linux 10.0 3.3.2-6mdk)] on linux2 Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> 2/3 0.66666666666666663 But that not holds for script execution. $ cat z2.py print 2/3 $ python z2.py 0 As documented in the tutorial: """ 2.2.4 The Interactive Startup File When you use Python interactively, it is frequently handy to have some standard commands executed every time the interpreter is started. You can do this by setting an environment variable named PYTHONSTARTUP to the name of a file containing your start-up commands. This is similar to the .profile feature of the Unix shells. This file is only read in interactive sessions, not when Python reads commands from a script, and not when /dev/tty is given as the explicit source of commands (which otherwise behaves like an interactive session). It is executed in the same namespace where interactive commands are executed, so that objects that it defines or imports can be used without qualification in the interactive session. You can also change the prompts sys.ps1 and sys.ps2 in this file. """ hth, | Is there any way at all? Do you mean any other way ? best regards, Senra -- ,_ | ) Rodrigo Senra |(______ ----------------------------------------------- _( (|__|] GPr Sistemas http://www.gpr.com.br _ | (|___|] IC - Unicamp http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 ___ (|__|] L___(|_|] ----------------------------------------------- From glingl at aon.at Sun Feb 27 23:40:34 2005 From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl) Date: Sun Feb 27 23:38:27 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] How do I import from __future__ at startup? In-Reply-To: <4221AC37.2030406@gmx.de> References: <4221AC37.2030406@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42224C62.2080607@aon.at> One way to accomplish this is to start Python with the -Qnew switch: python -Qnew If you want to run a script with this option, e.g. the script division.py with this content: print 11/3 then use c:\Python24\python -Qnew division.py 3.6666666667 (or something similar on a Linux system) Regards, Gregor Christian Mascher schrieb: > Hello all, > > I managed to do this once, but I forgot. > > I want division always to be imported from __future__ at startup. > > Putting > from __future__ import division > in a file sitecustomize.py doesn't work (which I think is > counterintuitive). Do I have to use PYTHONSTARTUP variable? Is there any > way at all? > > I searched google and python.org but didn't find a quick answer to this. > Perhaps somebody can help me out? > > Thanks, > > Christian > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > -- Gregor Lingl Reisnerstrasse 3/19 A-1030 Wien Telefon: +43 1 713 33 98 Mobil: +43 664 140 35 27 Autor von "Python f?r Kids" Website: python4kids.net From gvanrossum at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 23:59:38 2005 From: gvanrossum at gmail.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Sun Feb 27 23:59:42 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] How do I import from __future__ at startup? In-Reply-To: <4221AC37.2030406@gmx.de> References: <4221AC37.2030406@gmx.de> Message-ID: > I want division always to be imported from __future__ at startup. > > Putting > from __future__ import division > in a file sitecustomize.py doesn't work (which I think is > counterintuitive). Do I have to use PYTHONSTARTUP variable? Is there any > way at all? > > I searched google and python.org but didn't find a quick answer to this. > Perhaps somebody can help me out? $ python -Qnew Python 2.3.4 (#2, Aug 6 2004, 10:37:58) [GCC 3.2.2 20030222 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.2-5)] on linux2 Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> 1/2 0.5 >>> -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From kdobson at mentalhealth.asn.au Mon Feb 28 00:05:50 2005 From: kdobson at mentalhealth.asn.au (Ken Dobson) Date: Mon Feb 28 00:02:52 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] How do I import from __future__ at startup? References: <4221AC37.2030406@gmx.de> Message-ID: <009901c51d20$e274edc0$1100a8c0@dfh> Hi I joined the list to demonstrate the wonderful benefits of such a list to our organisation, but I don't know how to unsubscribe. HELP!!! Ken :o) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guido van Rossum" To: "Christian Mascher" Cc: Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] How do I import from __future__ at startup? > > I want division always to be imported from __future__ at startup. > > > > Putting > > from __future__ import division > > in a file sitecustomize.py doesn't work (which I think is > > counterintuitive). Do I have to use PYTHONSTARTUP variable? Is there any > > way at all? > > > > I searched google and python.org but didn't find a quick answer to this. > > Perhaps somebody can help me out? > > $ python -Qnew > Python 2.3.4 (#2, Aug 6 2004, 10:37:58) > [GCC 3.2.2 20030222 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.2-5)] on linux2 > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. > >>> 1/2 > 0.5 > >>> > > -- > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Feb 28 01:12:32 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Feb 28 01:12:35 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 19, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <20050226112053.22037.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050228001233.A80491E4005@bag.python.org> Darren Payne > of coercing from me. I read Kirby's work with interest > - however my experience is teenagers just aren't > interested in math. Rather it is a chore that must be > endured, a minimum standard society requires us to > attain. Yes, there's a lot of truth in that. And yet we insist they climb a slope vis-?-vis mathematics, i.e. we step them up a ladder, and send the message this is mandatory for many technical careers. So, *given* that, my question is: OK, so would you rather climb this ladder with or without Python (and/or other computer languages)? One approach: the math teachers are handling math, so we doing computer stuff are just free to play games and ignore math, because that's what kids like. Another approach (mine): let's compete with the math teachers, and show how to cover a lot of the same concepts and materials, but in a way that's more relevant and engaging -- AND we'll have time for games as well. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Feb 28 01:46:35 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Feb 28 01:46:45 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 19, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <20050226112053.22037.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050228004644.278FF1E4005@bag.python.org> > Python IS a GREAT language to start out with ... but > simply put, the lack of GUI means only the most > committed students get anything out of it without alot > of coercing from me. Also, on the GUI front, I think a nice compromise, if you're not wanting to code up inside of Tk (e.g. with John's graphics.py) or wx, is to do cgi and use the browser as your GUI. Even with a whiz bang GUI, there's still a question: what does your program *do*? i.e. what's the GUI about? One needs at least *some* guts behind the cosmetics. As a FoxPro programmer, I know the appeal of dragging widgets from palettes the Microsoft way. Speaking of FoxPro, I'd choose VFP over VB any day for teaching. The language let's you define classes, not just use objects (VB .NET is just catching up), plus you've got all the project management tools, even though it's not inside Visual Studio. Plus you've got a better interactive environment, embedded SQL and I think a cleaner syntax (OK, I'm biased). Indeed, I was well on the way towards pushing VFP as the teaching language of tomorrow when I discovered Python. Here's an article left over from that chapter, about VFP + POV-Ray: http://foxpro.advisor.com/doc/05315 (print issue: March 1999) Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Feb 28 13:01:54 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Feb 28 13:02:14 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 19, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <20050228001233.A80491E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0ICM0071RERCW8@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > > Darren Payne > > > of coercing from me. I read Kirby's work with interest > > - however my experience is teenagers just aren't > > interested in math. Rather it is a chore that must be > > endured, a minimum standard society requires us to > > attain. > > Yes, there's a lot of truth in that. And yet we insist they climb a slope > vis-?-vis mathematics, i.e. we step them up a ladder, and send the message > this is mandatory for many technical careers. > > So, *given* that, my question is: OK, so would you rather climb this > ladder > with or without Python (and/or other computer languages)? > > One approach: the math teachers are handling math, so we doing computer > stuff are just free to play games and ignore math, because that's what > kids > like. > > Another approach (mine): let's compete with the math teachers, and show > how > to cover a lot of the same concepts and materials, but in a way that's > more > relevant and engaging -- AND we'll have time for games as well. I would state a similar position, but with a little more emphasis on the importance of mathematics in a general education regardless of one's career direction. Or at least the mathematics that Felix Klein and friends have in mind. Against which the importance of exposure to VB or Gamemaker pales. And as public education is definitely an environment of limited resources - and it is more than clear which of these endeavors consumes more of those resources - hard for me to resist questioning the allocation, and with more alarm, the direction things seem to be taking. What I *don't* particularly question - which leaves me in never-never land somewhere - is Darren's conclusions as to the practicality of teaching Python in the context of a "soft" introduction to "computers" at a high school level. I just consider that no reflection on Python and its ultimate utility as an educational tool - when we get on with things a bit more. Whenever that might be. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Feb 28 14:14:41 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Feb 28 14:14:55 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 19, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <0ICM0071RERCW8@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0ICM00N5DI4T4L@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > Behalf Of Arthur > > I just consider that no reflection on Python and its ultimate utility as > an > educational tool - when we get on with things a bit more. > > Whenever that might be. BTW - Given my bent, it is not surprising that to me the most significant recent development in the realm of Python and education is the announcement of Numeric3, and its goals: http://numeric.scipy.org/ """ Numeric3 There is a new project called numeric3 which should replace Numeric for almost all users. The goal is to make numeric3 a hybrid of and improvement on both numarray and Numeric. An older document roughly describing this project can be found here. Numeric3 can be checked out of CVS from sourceforge using the modulename Numeric3. When it is finished it will replace Numeric in SciPy. It will also be pushed to try and get it into the Python core (at least the basic types). Towards the goal of making numeric3 a hybrid of numarray and Numeric so that (at least portions of) it can be placed in the Python core, here is a PEP for an arrayobject for the Python core. It will be submitted as soon as enough interested people help construct it. The PEP is in the CVS tree of numeric3 (CVS module name Numeric3) which is hosted at the numpy sourceforge site. It can be edited directly by any developer of Numeric or numarray and this behavior is encouraged. Alternatively, snippets of text can be sent to oliphant@ee.byu.edu for insertion. """ I lot of the math I now know, I learned from Numeric. Which, BTW, I was doing for fun. Good, hard fun. Art From christian.mascher at gmx.de Mon Feb 28 17:52:16 2005 From: christian.mascher at gmx.de (Christian Mascher) Date: Mon Feb 28 17:52:53 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: visual programming In-Reply-To: <20050228110003.C3C3C1E400B@bag.python.org> References: <20050228110003.C3C3C1E400B@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <42234C40.1080707@gmx.de> Hi, why is it that delphi isn't mentioned very often in this context on this list? At least in german high-schools delphi is the strongest competitor with java (and a share of python and other exotica). I know it is not free, but you can download it for private use from borland and it certainly is a very sophisticated visual environment plus a fullblown objectoriented language. It is amazingly easy to use, even if you don't like pascal (I don't). And the compiler is very quick. I sure prefer Python, but if I have to choose between Java and Delphi/Kylix I don't know. The delphi-ide takes away much of the stupid syntax-teaching-chore - which tends to be a much smaller problem with Python. With three 3/4-hours a week I actually shouldn't have the time to teach real programming (the syntax stuff), ideas are more important. Thus my interest for tools which get out of the way. Of course the problem with delphi is: can you interest your students for the behind-the-scenes-stuff (for instance: how the GUI works), if the program is already a "finished" GUI right away? And: when forced to use Delphi, I miss IDLE and the simple print statement most. For examining algorithms this is simply the best. Any one else used/teached with Delphi? Christian Kirby wrote: > Also, on the GUI front, I think a nice compromise, if you're not wanting to > code up inside of Tk (e.g. with John's graphics.py) or wx, is to do cgi and > use the browser as your GUI. > > Even with a whiz bang GUI, there's still a question: what does your program > *do*? i.e. what's the GUI about? One needs at least *some* guts behind the > cosmetics. > > As a FoxPro programmer, I know the appeal of dragging widgets from palettes > the Microsoft way. > > Speaking of FoxPro, I'd choose VFP over VB any day for teaching. From lac at strakt.com Mon Feb 28 18:50:19 2005 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Feb 28 18:50:24 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] How do I import from __future__ at startup? In-Reply-To: Message from "Ken Dobson" of "Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:05:50 +1100." <009901c51d20$e274edc0$1100a8c0@dfh> References: <4221AC37.2030406@gmx.de> <009901c51d20$e274edc0$1100a8c0@dfh> Message-ID: <200502281750.j1SHoJc3013696@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Go to http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig Go to the very bottom, where it says: 'Edu-sig Subscribers'. Find yourself in the subscribers list if you cannot remember what you subscribed as, and click that, or type it in -- if you can remember -- with your email address. You will end up at a nice page, but you will need your password to enter. If you remember that, fine. If not, have your password mailed to you. Remember that it will come to the address where you subscribed, so if that isn't where you are now, you will have to log into that account to get your mail with your password. Then, equipped with your password you can hit the unsubscribe button. Good luck, mail me if you still have trouble, Laura In a message of Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:05:50 +1100, "Ken Dobson" writes: >Hi > >I joined the list to demonstrate the wonderful benefits of such a list to >our organisation, but I don't know how to unsubscribe. > >HELP!!! > >Ken :o) > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Guido van Rossum" >To: "Christian Mascher" >Cc: >Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 9:59 AM >Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] How do I import from __future__ at startup? > > >> > I want division always to be imported from __future__ at startup. >> > >> > Putting >> > from __future__ import division >> > in a file sitecustomize.py doesn't work (which I think is >> > counterintuitive). Do I have to use PYTHONSTARTUP variable? Is there >any >> > way at all? >> > >> > I searched google and python.org but didn't find a quick answer to th >is. >> > Perhaps somebody can help me out? >> >> $ python -Qnew >> Python 2.3.4 (#2, Aug 6 2004, 10:37:58) >> [GCC 3.2.2 20030222 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.2-5)] on linux2 >> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >> >>> 1/2 >> 0.5 >> >>> >> >> -- >> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig@python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig