From urnerk at qwest.net Wed Sep 1 05:40:25 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed Sep 1 05:40:27 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for Fun Message-ID: <20040901034027.11E081E4002@bag.python.org> I'm impressed by this new resource from Chris Meyers. http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/py4fun/ This is good stuff, and handsomely presented. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Wed Sep 1 07:53:34 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed Sep 1 07:53:37 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for Fun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040901055336.281521E4002@bag.python.org> > Thanks for pointing that out, Kirby. > Hey Dethe, sorry I missed you in Canada. Thought I was going to be presenting to local compsci teachers (high school level), then they went and canceled the talk, cuz the teachers are being herded into Java. I've been running your pygame-based slides and games. Some minor problems on Windows -- will check with gomoku.py with Linux later. I'd played with doing slides in Pygame for OSCON but wimped out with just a demo opener slide (proof of concept) -- then went to OpenOffice. I had my pygame graph plotting demo queued up, but didn't have time for it, amidst other demos. Anyway, great work on all those games. The artistry ain't bad, especially on goboard and quipu IMO. Haven't checked any of your source code yet. Wondered how you got /usr/dict to work in Windows. On Solipong, the ball jets right through my paddle -- I'm such a loser. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Wed Sep 1 08:01:56 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed Sep 1 08:01:59 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for Fun In-Reply-To: <3715.63.159.68.205.1094012813.squirrel@63.159.68.205> Message-ID: <20040901060157.A6F3B1E4002@bag.python.org> > Thanks Kirby for this reference. THis looks interesting. > We're using Python now instead of Lisp in our AI course. Also > we have a new comparative language class that's going to cover > oop (like smalltalk), functional (like scheme/lisp), and logic progamming > (prolog). > Randy Latimer > Excellent. If any of your curriculum is on the web, I hope you'll share a link. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Sep 3 07:30:51 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Sep 3 07:30:55 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Panda3D anyone? In-Reply-To: <20040901060157.A6F3B1E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20040903053053.813EA1E4002@bag.python.org> Did anyone on this list (a) catch the talk associated with the following paper at PyCon2004 and/or (b) has anyone played with (or used seriously) this program Panda3D? http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/papers/29/ >From my reading (that's all I've done), it looks big and complicated. But that doesn't mean it's bad, does it? Might it have some educational uses? Kirby PS: Arthur, the link to your talk from the Pycon2004 calendar (right under mine) is broken. Any ideas? http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/papers/ From barrett at stsci.edu Tue Sep 7 05:46:22 2004 From: barrett at stsci.edu (Paul Barrett) Date: Tue Sep 7 05:46:34 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project Message-ID: <413D2F0E.3060501@stsci.edu> I was at SciPy (the Scientific Python Conference) in Pasadena, CA last week. There were some good talks about scientific applications of Python. One talk by Michel Sanner and his collaborators of the Scripps Research Institute was about their Vision library, which used to be called Viper. Michel has demonstrated this software at previous SciPy Conferences and possibly at one of the Python Conferences in the last few years. For those who are not familiar with the module. Vision (http://www.scripps.edu/~sanner/python/viper/) is a visual-programming environment in which a user can interactively build networks describing novel combinations of computational methods, and yielding new visualizations of their data without actually writing code. Nodes encapsulating specific computational methods are organized in libraries and displayed in Vision. The user can drag-and-drop them onto a canvas and connect their input and output ports to define an execution flow. Subnetworks can be encapsulated into macro nodes, allowing nesting of networks. Also during lunch on Friday, I was given a tour of the CalTech Infrared lab, where they are building some IR detectors for one of their telescopes. To control and test one of the new IR detectors, they use a commercial application called LabView, which allows electronics engineers to create programs visually by connecting the outputs of one node to the inputs of other nodes. Sounds like Vision doesn't it. For a number of years now (about a decade or so), I've had this vision (not to be confused with the Python library) of being able to use Python to develop space missions for NASA from beginning-to-end. That is from the hardware development phase of a NASA mission, where the scientists and engineers are building and testing the hardware, to the publication phase, where scientists are preparing their results for publication. The SciPy community is starting to get close to this ideal. We currently have numarray, the multidimensional array library, matplotlib, the cross-platform graphics library, and the scipy package of scientific algorithms. However, there is currently no software for programming and testing electronics hardware like LabView. My suggestion therefore is to create such a package using Vision. In my opinion, creating such a package should not be too difficult. Vision already provides the visual programming environment. The next step is to extend it with software for creating electronic circuits. I'm guessing that advanced high school students should be able to tackle this project with some guidance from a computer science teacher and an electronics teacher. In addition, a possible application of this package would be to create an OBDII (On-Board Diagnostics 2) scanner for reading information from a car's microprocessor. Hardware, which can be used to interface the car's microprocessor to a laptop, can be purchased for about $100. Having heard Jeff Elkner talk about his experiences teaching Python to students at Yorktown HS in Arlington, VA, I think this project is achievable for a group of advanced high school students. What I think is nice about this project is that it has practical applications. Any takers or am over the top on this one? -- Paul -- Paul Barrett, PhD Space Telescope Science Institute Phone: 410-338-4475 ESS/Science Software Branch FAX: 410-338-4767 Baltimore, MD 21218 From david at handysoftware.com Tue Sep 7 13:23:10 2004 From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy) Date: Tue Sep 7 13:23:16 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project Message-ID: <200409071123.i87BNAaj030951@handysoftware.com> Paul Barrett wrote: > In my opinion, creating such a package should not be too difficult. > Vision already provides the visual programming environment. The next > step is to extend it with software for creating electronic circuits. What kind of electronic circuits - analog or digital? What do you mean by "creating electronic circuits"? Do you mean simulation, generating FPGA input files, or fabrication masks? What do you mean by "extend it with software" - I have to assume you mean "connect it with software" that already handles synthesis, simulation, or whatever it is you are trying to do. I don't think writing accurate simulation or logic synthesis software from scratch is acheivable by most high school seniors in a semeseter or two, but hey, maybe I'm out of touch with the rising generation! > I'm > guessing that advanced high school students should be able to tackle > this project with some guidance from a computer science teacher and an > electronics teacher. In addition, a possible application of this package > would be to create an OBDII (On-Board Diagnostics 2) scanner for reading > information from a car's microprocessor. Hardware, which can be used to > interface the car's microprocessor to a laptop, can be purchased for > about $100. ... > Any takers or am over the top on this one? > > -- Paul This reminds me of one of the first commercial software projects I did (when I was 21) for my Dad who had an Analog ASIC design business. I wrote software for him that connected the output of a visual circuit designer (OrCAD) to the input of an analog circuit simulator (PSpice). I had at that time only the most basic understanding of electronics. However, the software just had to know how to properly connect inputs and outputs, look up components by name, and transform ASCII files from one format into another. That project would have been in the reach of advanced high school students. However, it was time consuming to get the details correct to the point that circuits would actually simulate properly. You would have to carefully define the scope of your project to make it sucessful in the time frame that you have to work with. David H. From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Sep 7 13:50:35 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Sep 7 13:52:39 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project In-Reply-To: <413D2F0E.3060501@stsci.edu> Message-ID: <0I3O00A536BPC2@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Paul Barrett > Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 11:46 PM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project > > > I was at SciPy (the Scientific Python Conference) in Pasadena, CA last > week. I'm jealous. > In my opinion, creating such a package should not be too difficult. > Vision already provides the visual programming environment. The next > step is to extend it with software for creating electronic circuits. I'm > guessing that advanced high school students should be able to tackle > this project with some guidance from a computer science teacher and an > electronics teacher. In addition, a possible application of this package > would be to create an OBDII (On-Board Diagnostics 2) scanner for reading > information from a car's microprocessor. Hardware, which can be used to > interface the car's microprocessor to a laptop, can be purchased for > about $100. > > Having heard Jeff Elkner talk about his experiences teaching Python to > students at Yorktown HS in Arlington, VA, I think this project is > achievable for a group of advanced high school students. What I think is > nice about this project is that it has practical applications. > > Any takers or am over the top on this one? Knowing less than nothing about electronic circuits, I can't say. Not that I'm proud or content with knowing nothing about electronic circuits. Certainly I was not exposed to much about the subject, beyond some highly abstract text-book talk, in school. And in the environment in which I happen to have grown up there was not much influence in my immediate vicinity from people who might have exposed me to these kinds of things outside of school. To know as little as I do about something as much a part of my everyday life is actually quite peculiar. Worse than that - in view of the fact that I would be considered a highly educated person, and the little I do understand is much more than most of the people around me understand. This represents a new kind of stage in civilization, with implications I think that are underplayed So many folks knowing so little about the basic tools around which their lives revolve. There is a disequilibrium in that circumstances that is bound to catch up to us. (God, am I sounding like a Liberal Arts type of guy). What I can say is that there has been much in the mainstream press in recent months about the failure of science education (I think particularly the exposure to science in the "general education" curriculum - and I think it has been a relatively long standing problem, with myself in part a product of the problem). And folks seem to be coming to the conclusion that the main problem is that no one learns science by reading about it in books. One learns science by doing science. It is my opinion that activity based learning around scientific (and mathematical subjects) is the right use of computers in the classroom. What I would hope you might be able to do is to scale down the ambition of your idea enough to make it realistic as something that might be able to be used in a more general way, for the folks not already heading in the direction of specializing in scientific subjects. And to make it fully realistic, go out and get a big fat NSF grant to fund the necessary efforts. Would love to try to help. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Sep 7 14:13:14 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Sep 7 14:15:18 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project In-Reply-To: <200409071123.i87BNAaj030951@handysoftware.com> Message-ID: <0I3O0080G7DG52@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > > This reminds me of one of the first commercial software projects I did > (when I was 21) > for my Dad who had an Analog ASIC design business. My dad made mattresses. A softer matter ;). But at least it gave me some sense - in more of a 19th century way - of machines being used to help make things that were useful in basic ways. My friends (in our middle class community) whose fathers were more likely things like salesmen, or bureaucrats, never got exposed to even that much. Even doing something like working on cars in a serious way was considered "working class". We were encouraged to be "highly educated". Which involved not knowing too much about anything. And doing quite fine in school as a result ;). There was never a problem or conflict. In fact the curriculum seems to have evolved to accommodate the culture out of which I came. Soft subjects became the core curriculum, it seems. So kids of mattress makers, and salesmen, and bureaucrats did just fine. And with no need to get grease on their hands. Yes, I guess I have become a bit of a reactionary, as a result. Art From jj2kk4 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 23:44:39 2004 From: jj2kk4 at yahoo.com (Joel Kahn) Date: Tue Sep 7 23:44:41 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Bitmaps in VPython Message-ID: <20040907214439.60017.qmail@web51704.mail.yahoo.com> By using the attached script, in which a module from the Python Imaging Library is combined with VPython, you can display a bitmap image on a rectangular grid of VPython objects. Once the basic image is in place, of course, you can use VPython's strong capabilities for animation &c to produce a wide variety of visual effects. As I attempted to indicate in the script's comment lines, I suggest starting out with rather small bitmaps until you see what kind of results you get on your particular hardware. If anyone else has been experimenting with similar algorithms, I would be interested in seeing their work. This class of programs would seem to offer a broad range of potential benefits for education and lots of other areas. Email if you have questions. Joel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail -------------- next part -------------- # This program requires both # the Python Imaging Library # and VPython. import Image from visual import * # This program is designed for putting bitmap # images into VPython; non-bitmap file types # may require other approaches. autocenter = 1 scene = display() scene.width = 1024 scene.height = 738 scene.x = 0 scene.y = 0 Picture = Image.open ("bitmap.bmp") # The preceding line is technically pseudocode; # substitute the name of your own bitmap file (with # appropriate path info &c) for the name "bitmap." # For initial trials, stick to images with a # resolution of 100 x 100 or less. Pic_si = Picture.size Pic_width = Pic_si[0] Pic_height = Pic_si[1] Pic = [] for xx in arange (Pic_width): for yy in arange (Pic_height): pxl = Picture.getpixel ((xx, yy)) x2 = int (xx - Pic_width / 2) y2 = int (yy - Pic_height / 2) rr = pxl[0] / 256.0 gg = pxl[1] / 256.0 bb = pxl[2] / 256.0 Pic = Pic + [box (pos = (x2, y2, 0.0), color = (rr, gg, bb))] # Objects other than boxes should be just # as usable and can produce a wide # variety of visual effects. Pic_Array = array (Pic) lenn = len (Pic_Array) # If your image initially appears upside down, # use the following code to turn it right side up. for aa in arange (lenn): Pic_Array[aa].rotate (angle = pi, axis = (0.0, 0.0, 1.0), origin = (0.0, 0.0, 1.0)) From francois.schnell at free.fr Tue Sep 7 23:53:11 2004 From: francois.schnell at free.fr (francois schnell) Date: Tue Sep 7 23:45:45 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project In-Reply-To: <413D2F0E.3060501@stsci.edu> References: <413D2F0E.3060501@stsci.edu> Message-ID: <413E2DC7.20407@free.fr> Hello, Me too I'd like to see more things between Python and electronics... Thank's to the rapid grow of cheap and powerfull microcontrolers, electronics is more and more a programming activity acessible to nearly everyone. As a hobby I programed few PIC microcontrolers, it's very fun, but unfortunately I had to that with Basic :-( Where's my lovely Python there ? Maybe there is some hope with Pyastra and I pray that it will develop well: http://freshmeat.net/projects/pyastra/ http://www.python.org/pypi?:action=display&name=Pyastra&version=0.0.3 well, at the time of speaking Pyastra website seems down... but we can still dream : on top of Pyastra it would be very nice if it was possible to program them visualy :-) I know "Scracth" a visual programing kind of Lego from John Maloney - MIT (based on Squeak) will enable kids to program visualy some microcontrolers. http://llk.media.mit.edu/projects/scratch/ http://learning.media.mit.edu/projects/gogo/gogo22/index.html In french schools the hardware and software for processs control and acquisition data is expansive ( nearly 1000 $ per unit) but we can still continue to dream: With microcontrolers it is possible to build something nearly similar ( a little bit slower, 10 bits resolution instead of 12) for the price of a videogame and that a kid could have in his schollbag. Microcontrolers are also easy to interface with serial interface devices like mobiles, PDA or a Gameboy (things that kids love). If someone knows any project linking Python and electronics I'm interesed. Thank's francois Paul Barrett wrote: > > I was at SciPy (the Scientific Python Conference) in Pasadena, CA last > week. There were some good talks about scientific applications of > Python. One talk by Michel Sanner and his collaborators of the Scripps > Research Institute was about their Vision library, which used to be > called Viper. Michel has demonstrated this software at previous SciPy > Conferences and possibly at one of the Python Conferences in the last > few years. > > For those who are not familiar with the module. Vision > (http://www.scripps.edu/~sanner/python/viper/) is a visual-programming > environment in which a user can interactively build networks > describing novel combinations of computational methods, and yielding > new visualizations of their data without actually writing code. Nodes > encapsulating specific computational methods are organized in > libraries and displayed in Vision. The user can drag-and-drop them > onto a canvas and connect their input and output ports to define an > execution flow. Subnetworks can be encapsulated into macro nodes, > allowing nesting of networks. > > Also during lunch on Friday, I was given a tour of the CalTech > Infrared lab, where they are building some IR detectors for one of > their telescopes. To control and test one of the new IR detectors, > they use a commercial application called LabView, which allows > electronics engineers to create programs visually by connecting the > outputs of one node to the inputs of other nodes. Sounds like Vision > doesn't it. > > For a number of years now (about a decade or so), I've had this vision > (not to be confused with the Python library) of being able to use > Python to develop space missions for NASA from beginning-to-end. That > is from the hardware development phase of a NASA mission, where the > scientists and engineers are building and testing the hardware, to the > publication phase, where scientists are preparing their results for > publication. The SciPy community is starting to get close to this > ideal. We currently have numarray, the multidimensional array library, > matplotlib, the cross-platform graphics library, and the scipy package > of scientific algorithms. However, there is currently no software for > programming and testing electronics hardware like LabView. My > suggestion therefore is to create such a package using Vision. > > In my opinion, creating such a package should not be too difficult. > Vision already provides the visual programming environment. The next > step is to extend it with software for creating electronic circuits. > I'm guessing that advanced high school students should be able to > tackle this project with some guidance from a computer science teacher > and an electronics teacher. In addition, a possible application of > this package would be to create an OBDII (On-Board Diagnostics 2) > scanner for reading information from a car's microprocessor. > Hardware, which can be used to interface the car's microprocessor to a > laptop, can be purchased for about $100. > > Having heard Jeff Elkner talk about his experiences teaching Python to > students at Yorktown HS in Arlington, VA, I think this project is > achievable for a group of advanced high school students. What I think > is nice about this project is that it has practical applications. > > Any takers or am over the top on this one? > > -- Paul > -- ---------------------------------------------------- Fran?ois Schnell - Strasbourg - France francois.schnell_At_free.fr http://francois.schnell.free.fr ---------------------------------------------------- Linux is the answer. Now, what was your question? ---------------------------------------------------- From cmeyers at guardnet.com Wed Sep 8 02:23:00 2004 From: cmeyers at guardnet.com (cmeyers@guardnet.com) Date: Wed Sep 8 02:23:43 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project In-Reply-To: <413E2DC7.20407@free.fr> References: <413D2F0E.3060501@stsci.edu> <413E2DC7.20407@free.fr> Message-ID: <21138.207.189.149.129.1094602980.squirrel@pluto.guardnet.com> > > If someone knows any project linking Python and electronics I'm > interesed. > As a possible starting point, at least for digital circuits you might look at the Python for fun site www.ibiblio.org/obp/py4fun and check out the 2 logic circuit demos. As yet there is no graphical interface but if someone wanted to add one I'd be happy to assist with any integration Chris Meyers From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Sep 8 03:48:12 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Sep 8 03:52:23 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project In-Reply-To: <413E2DC7.20407@free.fr> Message-ID: <0I3P00EZ793QJR@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of francois schnell > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:53 PM > To: barrett@stsci.edu; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project > > Hello, > > Me too I'd like to see more things between Python and electronics... > Thank's to the rapid grow of cheap and powerfull microcontrolers, > electronics is more and more a programming activity acessible to > nearly everyone. > As a hobby I programed few PIC microcontrolers, it's very fun, but > unfortunately I had to that with Basic :-( > Where's my lovely Python there ? > > Maybe there is some hope with Pyastra and I pray that it will develop > well: > > http://freshmeat.net/projects/pyastra/ > http://www.python.org/pypi?:action=display&name=Pyastra&version=0.0.3 > > well, at the time of speaking Pyastra website seems down... but we can > still dream : > on top of Pyastra it would be very nice if it was possible to program > them visualy :-) > > I know "Scracth" a visual programing kind of Lego from John Maloney - > MIT (based on Squeak) will enable kids to program visualy some > microcontrolers. > http://llk.media.mit.edu/projects/scratch/ > http://learning.media.mit.edu/projects/gogo/gogo22/index.html IMO, there is a very important distinction to be made between exposing students/kids/whatever to tools built for scientists by scientists and "learning environments" of various kinds. It is hard to articulate why I feel this distinction is so important, beyond the fact that the learner themselves certainly understands the difference, and is right in taking one much more seriously than the other. The concept here is to expose folks to real science. What I find particularly exciting about Paul's approach, is that he was suggesting doing exactly that. If the counter argument is related to issues of age appropriateness - simply wait, and introduce real tools, when appropriate. Python is potentially important as an educational tool, IMO, precisely because is a real world tool of choice for sophisticated and savvy people doing sophisticated and savvy things. Don't mean to be lecturing you simply for having mentioned the Scratch thing. Though I don't necessarily have anyone else's support in pressing the kind of distinction I am trying to draw - my sense of the importance of drawing this distinction is fundamental to what brings me here to Python edu-sig. Art From jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu Wed Sep 8 05:35:31 2004 From: jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu (Jordan Johnson) Date: Wed Sep 8 05:35:37 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project In-Reply-To: <0I3P00EZ793QJR@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <22C6C102-0148-11D9-AF1E-000A9566DF3E@cs.indiana.edu> On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 06:48 PM, Arthur wrote: > IMO, there is a very important distinction to be made between exposing > students/kids/whatever to tools built for scientists by scientists and > "learning environments" of various kinds. Having tried a couple of things along those lines, I'd say that's a good idea, with the big caveat that there sometimes are usability issues that get in the way. (We technically-minded folk aren't always the best about cleaning up the interfaces...) That said, it's even worse to find usability problems in the "learning environments" you speak of--and there are those out there, too. jmj -- Jordan Johnson -- Mammalian Biped From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Sep 8 14:21:32 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Sep 8 14:23:41 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project In-Reply-To: <22C6C102-0148-11D9-AF1E-000A9566DF3E@cs.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <0I3Q00IGG2FAIQ@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jordan Johnson [mailto:jorjohns@cs.indiana.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 11:36 PM > To: Arthur > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project > > > On Tuesday, September 7, 2004, at 06:48 PM, Arthur wrote: > > IMO, there is a very important distinction to be made between exposing > > students/kids/whatever to tools built for scientists by scientists and > > "learning environments" of various kinds. > > Having tried a couple of things along those lines, I'd say that's a > good idea, with the big caveat that there sometimes are usability > issues that get in the way. (We technically-minded folk aren't always > the best about cleaning up the interfaces...) > > That said, it's even worse to find usability problems in the "learning > environments" you speak of--and there are those out there, too. Agreed. On both points. Though I would make the point that the problem with usability problems in learning environments, in particular, is the lack of incentive (at least inner directed incentive) to make the effort to overcome it. After all, its only a learning environment - theoretically conceived - not something "real". My own tolerance for learning to learn to navigate learning environments is near zero. So, for me, it takes almost nothing for that environment to become unusable. Though I am not a paid subject, or being graded on by ability to do so. So I might skew the statistics a bit ;). In my own case, I can point to the effectiveness of something like Numeric as a tool for learning mathematical concepts. Its documentation is sketchy, its interface - beyond access to it from the Python interactive prompt - non-existence. It was conceived certainly primarily as a practical tool, not a teaching tool. My point of view on these things are certainly skewed by my own temperament and experience. But I never have had reason to consider myself very unusual in any ways the count on these kind of matters. Except for the fact that my learning endeavors tend to be inner directed and motivated. And I guess it is hard for me to assess the difference between that situation and the situation of someone being force fed. Art > > jmj > > -- > Jordan Johnson -- Mammalian Biped From barrett at stsci.edu Wed Sep 8 16:05:39 2004 From: barrett at stsci.edu (Paul Barrett) Date: Wed Sep 8 16:05:50 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project In-Reply-To: <200409071123.i87BNAaj030951@handysoftware.com> References: <200409071123.i87BNAaj030951@handysoftware.com> Message-ID: <413F11B3.9050404@stsci.edu> David Handy wrote: > Paul Barrett wrote: > > >>In my opinion, creating such a package should not be too difficult. >>Vision already provides the visual programming environment. The next >>step is to extend it with software for creating electronic circuits. > > > What kind of electronic circuits - analog or digital? I'm not talking about creating electronic circuits per se, but developing a visual programming environment for implementing data acquisition programs. The strength of LabView is that the venders of electronic interface boards also provide the necessary software drivers for these boards. Someone, an experienced electronics or software engineer, will have to write these drivers or make them available. However, in the case of the OBDII scanners for automobiles, the specs for these drivers are available and, I believe, the interface is pretty simple, i.e. send command to port A, read data from port B, etc. > What do you mean by "creating electronic circuits"? Do you mean simulation, > generating FPGA input files, or fabrication masks? No, I don't mean any of this. My intent is to create a visual programming environment so electronics engineers can create data acquisition and analysis programs without having to write programs. They can just drag-drop-and-connect icons for various processing steps to create an application. For an example, take a look at the Vision (http://www.scripps.edu/~sanner/python/viper/) web page. > What do you mean by "extend it with software" - I have to assume you mean "connect it > with software" that already handles synthesis, simulation, or whatever it is you are > trying to do. The Vision library was designed to allow molecular biologists to visually create applications to analyze their data without having to write code. Each icon represents a processing step (or node) having zero or more inputs and zero or more outputs. The user connects the inputs and outputs of these nodes together to create an application. When he gives the application data and pushes the execute button, the applications processes the data and returns a result, either graphically or digitallly. For example an application may take an image of a molecule and provide graphic information about the bonds between atoms. However, there are generic nodes which can be written on the fly by opening editor and writing the processing step in Python. This is what I mean by "extending the softare". Creating or writing nodes that would be useful to someone who would like to create a data acquisition program. Some examples of nodes are 'and' and 'or' logic circuits, writing and reading ports, strip chart recorders, etc. Then using an On-Board Diagnostic 2 (OBDII) scanner circuit board connected to a car's OBD interface (usually located under the dash board on the driver side), they can read and display the information contained in a car's microprocessor, just like every auto mechanic does these days. > I don't think writing accurate simulation or logic synthesis software from scratch is > acheivable by most high school seniors in a semeseter or two, but hey, maybe I'm out > of touch with the rising generation! I agree. I don't envisage this project being done by each high school student, but as a collaborative project among several advanced or gifted high school students looking for a useful hand-ons programming project. I see this project taking at least a year to complete if not more and the work load distributed among several groups. One group can learn about logic circuits and then program these nodes using Vision and Python. Another group can learn about reading and writing hardware ports and then program these nodes. A third group can think about interface issues, e.g. creating better icons for each node. This project could also be a collaboration between a computer science teacher, an electronics shop teacher, and an auto shop teacher, if a high school provides these facilities. > >>I'm >>guessing that advanced high school students should be able to tackle >>this project with some guidance from a computer science teacher and an >>electronics teacher. In addition, a possible application of this package >>would be to create an OBDII (On-Board Diagnostics 2) scanner for reading >>information from a car's microprocessor. Hardware, which can be used to >>interface the car's microprocessor to a laptop, can be purchased for >>about $100. > > ... > > >>Any takers or am over the top on this one? >> >> -- Paul > > > This reminds me of one of the first commercial software projects I did (when I was 21) > for my Dad who had an Analog ASIC design business. I wrote software for him that > connected the output of a visual circuit designer (OrCAD) to the input of an analog > circuit simulator (PSpice). I had at that time only the most basic understanding of > electronics. However, the software just had to know how to properly connect inputs > and outputs, look up components by name, and transform ASCII files from one format > into another. That project would have been in the reach of advanced high school > students. > > However, it was time consuming to get the details correct to the point that circuits > would actually simulate properly. You would have to carefully define the scope of your > project to make it sucessful in the time frame that you have to work with. Yes. As I've said before, I don't expect each student to write everything, just a piece of it. The pieces can then be combined into a useful and useable package for scientists, engineers, and hobbists. -- Paul -- Paul Barrett, PhD Space Telescope Science Institute Phone: 410-338-4475 ESS/Science Software Branch FAX: 410-338-4767 Baltimore, MD 21218 From john.zelle at wartburg.edu Wed Sep 8 16:24:15 2004 From: john.zelle at wartburg.edu (John Zelle) Date: Wed Sep 8 16:25:28 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Bitmaps in VPython In-Reply-To: <20040907214439.60017.qmail@web51704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040907214439.60017.qmail@web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <413F160F.8030308@wartburg.edu> This is interesting, Joel, but not really a substitute for true texture mapping, something that I wish for in Vpython. I needed to tweak your code a bit to make it work for my bitmaps. I converted the image to RGB format. It just takes one line. After reading the file: Picture = Picture.convert("RGB") Without this conversion, I was getting unsubscriptable object errors on the references to pxl. --Z Joel Kahn wrote: >By using the attached script, in which a module from >the Python Imaging Library is combined with VPython, >you can display a bitmap image on a rectangular grid >of VPython objects. Once the basic image is in place, >of course, you can use VPython's strong capabilities >for animation &c to produce a wide variety of visual >effects. As I attempted to indicate in the script's >comment lines, I suggest starting out with rather >small bitmaps until you see what kind of results you >get on your particular hardware. > >If anyone else has been experimenting with similar >algorithms, I would be interested in seeing their >work. This class of programs would seem to offer a >broad range of potential benefits for education and >lots of other areas. Email if you have questions. > >Joel > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ># This program requires both ># the Python Imaging Library ># and VPython. > >import Image >from visual import * > ># This program is designed for putting bitmap ># images into VPython; non-bitmap file types ># may require other approaches. > >autocenter = 1 > >scene = display() >scene.width = 1024 >scene.height = 738 >scene.x = 0 >scene.y = 0 > >Picture = Image.open ("bitmap.bmp") ># The preceding line is technically pseudocode; ># substitute the name of your own bitmap file (with ># appropriate path info &c) for the name "bitmap." ># For initial trials, stick to images with a ># resolution of 100 x 100 or less. > >Pic_si = Picture.size >Pic_width = Pic_si[0] >Pic_height = Pic_si[1] > >Pic = [] > >for xx in arange (Pic_width): > for yy in arange (Pic_height): > pxl = Picture.getpixel ((xx, yy)) > x2 = int (xx - Pic_width / 2) > y2 = int (yy - Pic_height / 2) > rr = pxl[0] / 256.0 > gg = pxl[1] / 256.0 > bb = pxl[2] / 256.0 > Pic = Pic + [box (pos = (x2, y2, 0.0), color = (rr, gg, bb))] > ># Objects other than boxes should be just ># as usable and can produce a wide ># variety of visual effects. > >Pic_Array = array (Pic) >lenn = len (Pic_Array) > ># If your image initially appears upside down, ># use the following code to turn it right side up. > >for aa in arange (lenn): > Pic_Array[aa].rotate (angle = pi, axis = (0.0, 0.0, 1.0), origin = (0.0, 0.0, 1.0)) > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Sep 9 01:59:43 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Sep 9 01:59:46 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Bitmaps in VPython In-Reply-To: <413F160F.8030308@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: <0I3Q00GCVYNJGV@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of John Zelle > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:24 AM > To: Joel Kahn; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Bitmaps in VPython > > This is interesting, Joel, but not really a substitute for true texture > mapping, something that I wish for in Vpython. FWIW, it is my understanding that Jonathan Brandenmeyer is working toward a VPython that will integrate with pyOpenGL - which should open up new possibilities in this area. Art From rodrigo.senra at terra.com.br Thu Sep 9 03:22:21 2004 From: rodrigo.senra at terra.com.br (Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra) Date: Thu Sep 9 03:21:58 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project In-Reply-To: <21138.207.189.149.129.1094602980.squirrel@pluto.guardnet.com> References: <413D2F0E.3060501@stsci.edu> <413E2DC7.20407@free.fr> <21138.207.189.149.129.1094602980.squirrel@pluto.guardnet.com> Message-ID: <20040908222221.1de0d2a7@Goku> ,--------------------------------------- | Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:23:00 -0700 (PDT) | Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] A suggestion for a high school programming project | From: `---------------------------------------- | > | > If someone knows any project linking Python and electronics I'm | > interesed. | > | As a possible starting point, at least for digital circuits you might look | at the Python for fun site www.ibiblio.org/obp/py4fun and check out the 2 | logic circuit demos. As yet there is no graphical interface but if someone | wanted to add one I'd be happy to assist with any integration Since you've mentioned GUI, I did a MIPS datapath drawing app (using wxPython) as a weekend exercise for a pos-graduation Computer Architecture course. It is capable to draw some logical gates and other circuit abstractions. The code is a bit rough and should go through a major refactoring, but there is a remote chance it (or parts of it) might be useful. It is deeply undocumented , but that can be mended. A screenshot can be found in http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234, and the project is hosted in http://codigolivre.org.br/projects/mipsimulator/ cheers, Rod Senra ,_ | ) Rodrigo Senra |(______ ----------------------------------------------- _( (|__|] GPr Sistemas http://www.gpr.com.br _ | (|___|] IC - Unicamp http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 ___ (|__|] L___(|_|] ----------------------------------------------- From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Sep 9 16:25:57 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Sep 9 16:26:23 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: OSS license for a book? Message-ID: <0I3S00HK32R9L0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> David Handy has some new competition on the way apparently. Art -----Original Message----- From: James Allen [mailto:jfallen@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:56 PM To: Schoolforge Discuss; Debian-Edu Subject: Re: OSS license for a book? On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:45:18 -0700, Bill Kendrick wrote: > > I've been considering writing a short book (aimed at young children) > that introduces programming using Python. I like this idea. Python is an excellent first language and I know young children who would like to learn to program but get frustrated looking at most docs and/or books. > I'm not certain this will ever be publsihed in /print/, but regardless of > that, I'm planning on releasing it under an Open Source license. > > The two big ones I'm aware of are the GNU FDL (Free Doc. Lic.), > and the Open Publication Lic. (which Manual.Gimp.org was published under). > > I haven't actually LOOKED closely at these licenses, but was wondering > if there are any others I should consider. What would be the most > beneficial to the community? (I'm hoping for updates, corrections, > translations, etc. to be applicable w/ the least resistance, and for it > to be the most flexible so far as becoming part of larger projects, > such as Debian-Edu.) I have seen discussions on debian mailing lists and elsewhere. The GNU FDL is considered by Debian to be a non-free license because of the part that contains "invariant sections" whereby you can make a section non-changeable. http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.html The one I currently use for my documentation is the Open Publication License which is used by at least some Debian documentation (I haven't checked all the Debian docs). Other ones you might want to consider are the Design Science Lisence http://www.gnu.org/licenses/dsl.html which is used by the Linux Cookbook. Creative Commons has several that are customizable. http://creativecommons.org/ The Free Software Foundation has a sight that discusses the various licenses. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html James Allen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-edu-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Sep 9 18:37:48 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Sep 9 18:39:14 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] PyScheme Message-ID: <0I3S005NF8V0X6@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Study the The Structure and Control of Computer Programs Available free online at: http://www-mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ without leaving home, using Danny Yoo's pyscheme, which seems to have take a leap forward in its recent 1.51 release http://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~dyoo/python/pyscheme/ The world is conspiring to make it convenient for me to become a better programmer. Hope I take up the offer. Art From jj2kk4 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 22:42:21 2004 From: jj2kk4 at yahoo.com (Joel Kahn) Date: Thu Sep 9 22:42:24 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Images in VPython: Faces Message-ID: <20040909204221.13948.qmail@web51701.mail.yahoo.com> The attached script contains another approach to the process of displaying images in VPython. Instead of there being an object for each "pixel," two triangles on a faces object are placed together to produce a square, as noted in the appropriate comment lines. As with my "objects" example, I kept this prototype as simple as possible; there are many things that could be done with varying normals, z-axis-positions, &c that I haven't touched yet. The new "faces" algorithm delivers the image to the screen significantly more quickly than the "objects" system, and it seems to be able to handle much higher resolution pictures; still, I suggest beginning your experiments with small bitmaps to play it safe. As always, feedback is encouraged. Joel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- import Image from visual import * # "Faces" object is used to display bitmap image. autocenter = 1 scene = display() scene.width = 1024 scene.height = 738 scene.x = 0 scene.y = 0 # Adjust ambient light and normal values to your preference. scene.ambient = 0.7 nrm = vector (0.5, 0.5, 0.5) Picture = Image.open ("bitmap.bmp") Picture = Picture.convert ("RGB") Pic_si = Picture.size Pic_width = Pic_si[0] Pic_height = Pic_si[1] Pic_fr = frame () Pic = faces (frame = Pic_fr) # To form each "pixel," two isosceles right triangles are placed # hypotenuse to hypotenuse to make a square. for xx in arange (Pic_width): for yy in arange (Pic_height): pxl = Picture.getpixel ((xx, yy)) x2 = int (xx - Pic_width / 2) y2 = int (yy - Pic_height / 2) rr = pxl[0] / 256.0 gg = pxl[1] / 256.0 bb = pxl[2] / 256.0 Pic.append (pos = (x2, y2, 0.0), color = (rr, gg, bb), normal = nrm) Pic.append (pos = (x2, y2 - 1, 0.0), color = (rr, gg, bb), normal = nrm) Pic.append (pos = (x2 + 1, y2, 0.0), color = (rr, gg, bb), normal = nrm) Pic.append (pos = (x2 + 1, y2, 0.0), color = (rr, gg, bb), normal = nrm) Pic.append (pos = (x2, y2 - 1, 0.0), color = (rr, gg, bb), normal = nrm) Pic.append (pos = (x2 + 1, y2 - 1, 0.0), color = (rr, gg, bb), normal = nrm) # Upside down image is rotated in its frame to be right side up. Pic_fr.rotate (angle = pi, axis = (0.0, 0.0, 1.0), origin = (0.0, 0.0, 1.0)) From david at handysoftware.com Fri Sep 10 05:29:48 2004 From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy) Date: Fri Sep 10 05:29:54 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: OSS license for a book? Message-ID: <200409100329.i8A3Tmh0015244@handysoftware.com> I wish him success (too). Writing a book is *hard*, much harder than I thought when I started this project two years ago, which is just now coming to full fruition. Anyway, the more people write beginning books for Python, the more non-technical people will hear about it. That's a good thing IMO. David H. (First reply went just to Art - new mail client, oops.) > David Handy has some new competition on the way apparently. > > Art > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Allen [mailto:jfallen@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:56 PM > To: Schoolforge Discuss; Debian-Edu > Subject: Re: OSS license for a book? > > On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:45:18 -0700, Bill Kendrick wrote: > > > > I've been considering writing a short book (aimed at young children) > > that introduces programming using Python. > > I like this idea. Python is an excellent first language and I know > young children who would like to learn to program but get frustrated > looking at most docs and/or books. > > > I'm not certain this will ever be publsihed in /print/, but regardless of > > that, I'm planning on releasing it under an Open Source license. > > > > The two big ones I'm aware of are the GNU FDL (Free Doc. Lic.), > > and the Open Publication Lic. (which Manual.Gimp.org was published under). > > > > I haven't actually LOOKED closely at these licenses, but was wondering > > if there are any others I should consider. What would be the most > > beneficial to the community? (I'm hoping for updates, corrections, > > translations, etc. to be applicable w/ the least resistance, and for it > > to be the most flexible so far as becoming part of larger projects, > > such as Debian-Edu.) > > I have seen discussions on debian mailing lists and elsewhere. The GNU > FDL is considered by Debian to be a non-free license because of the > part that contains "invariant sections" whereby you can make a section > non-changeable. > http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.html > The one I currently use for my documentation is the Open Publication > License which is used by at least some Debian documentation (I haven't > checked all the Debian docs). > > Other ones you might want to consider are the Design Science Lisence > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/dsl.html > which is used by the Linux Cookbook. Creative Commons has several that > are customizable. > http://creativecommons.org/ > > The Free Software Foundation has a sight that discusses the various > licenses. > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html > > James Allen > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-edu-REQUEST@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > listmaster@lists.debian.org > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Sep 10 19:02:09 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Sep 10 19:05:34 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Images in VPython: Faces In-Reply-To: <20040909204221.13948.qmail@web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0I3U000GQ4NKZT@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Joel Kahn > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 4:42 PM > To: visualpython-users@lists.sourceforge.net; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] Images in VPython: Faces > > The attached script contains another approach to the > process of displaying images in VPython. Instead of > there being an object for each "pixel," two triangles > on a faces object are placed together to produce a > square, as noted in the appropriate comment lines. As > with my "objects" example, I kept this prototype as > simple as possible; there are many things that could > be done with varying normals, z-axis-positions, &c > that I haven't touched yet. > > The new "faces" algorithm delivers the image to the > screen significantly more quickly than the "objects" > system, and it seems to be able to handle much higher > resolution pictures; still, I suggest beginning your > experiments with small bitmaps to play it safe. > > As always, feedback is encouraged. I hadn't had PIL installed, and it wasn't downloading went I first went to get it, so I hadn't been able to look at this before. I can now, and so did now. I hadn't had PIL because I've never have done much outside of vector graphics. I am used to working at the graphics object level, not the pixel level. I think your demo ties the two concepts together in a fun way. Thanks, Art From wjb131 at web.de Sat Sep 11 10:24:30 2004 From: wjb131 at web.de (Wolfgang Buechel) Date: Sat Sep 11 10:24:42 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: OSS license for a book? In-Reply-To: <0I3S00HK32R9L0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4142D25E.6816.EC93F@localhost> Hi Pythonians, there is a nice introductory book 'Python fuer Kids' for children from Gregor Lingl (in German, not translated into English, as far as I know). The book's homepage can be found at http://www.python4kids.net or http://www.rg16.asn-wien.ac.at/~python/ Regards Wolfgang Buechel > On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:45:18 -0700, Bill Kendrick > wrote: I've been considering writing a short book (aimed at young > children) that introduces programming using Python. From jj2kk4 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 12:56:39 2004 From: jj2kk4 at yahoo.com (Joel Kahn) Date: Sat Sep 18 12:56:41 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] New Job Message-ID: <20040918105639.88425.qmail@web51704.mail.yahoo.com> I recently accepted a position at a public school. I have the combined duties of computer lab supervisor and technical support person for an entire building (about 75 to 100 computers plus related equipment). I think that my new situation presents some (V)Python-related opportunities, but they need to be approached quite carefully. For one thing, my employer is *VERY* conservative, in *all* meanings of the term. Each new idea, program, gadget, &c that might be introduced has to go through a *serious* bureaucratic gauntlet. The administration of the school itself has extremely limited power; key decisions are made at the district level. Another important point: this is a K-2 school, and there are issues about how one can use Python as an educational tool for six-to-eight-year-olds. My short-term wish list: 1. Could someone donate a laptop that they are no longer using? This school has some, but they are all under tight restrictions (see above) and I will need to have a machine that I can experiment on. The main processor doesn't have to be cutting edge, of course, but a lot of RAM would be helpful, and the hard drive should be large enough for a dual partition between Windows and Linux that I might be tinkering with at some future time. A few spare batteries would also be good. Because of various ugly bureaucratic rules, the donation would have to be to me personally, *not* to the school; this might affect any tax breaks that you were hoping to get. However, I can still give plenty of favorable publicity to whichever person(s) and/or firm(s) make the donation possible. :-) 2. I'd like to get some gear to connect a computer to a TV/VCR so that the image going to the computer's monitor will also display directly on the TV and can be recorded on VHS. We already have the TV/VCR in our computer lab, and a computer has been set aside for this project too; we just need the hookup stuff. In this case, the gadget *would* belong to the school, and it just *might* be purchased out of the school's budget. Of course, a donated item certainly would be accepted, as long as the thing works properly. 3. I'm looking for an education-oriented version of Knoppix that can run reliably on a very old Pentium machine with limited RAM and disk space. The CD should be in English; I stress this because there seem to be several education Knoppixes in various European languages, but I'm having a hard time finding an English one. And remember the age group that I'm dealing with: six to eight years. This is a start. I'm open to suggestions, but keep in mind that change is real slow at this place. Joel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From chandrakirti at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 14:44:42 2004 From: chandrakirti at gmail.com (Lloyd Hugh Allen) Date: Sun Sep 19 14:44:53 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: <20040919100004.2BCC01E400B@bag.python.org> References: <20040919100004.2BCC01E400B@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <24d253d904091905444415d675@mail.gmail.com> > Subject: [Edu-sig] New Job > Joel said: > should be large enough for a dual partition between > Windows and Linux that I might be tinkering with at > some future time. A few spare batteries would also be > good. Because of various ugly bureaucratic rules, the > donation would have to be to me personally, *not* to > the school; this might affect any tax breaks that you > were hoping to get. However, I can still give plenty > of favorable publicity to whichever person(s) and/or > firm(s) make the donation possible. :-) I am in a similar situation; another individual and I are jointly responsible for maintenance and the inventory of ~600 computers (as well as teaching a full schedule each). However, the district's Support Center sets policy etc. It is very important to make friends with your immediate superior at the Support Center equivalent and with your principal so that you can get the freedom to take one or two machines aside and play with them. It is extremely difficult to maintain stuff that you don't have the freedom to experiment on. To bring it back to Python, the "silver bullet" for experimenting with linux and/or python on machines with sacrosanct hard drives seems to be knoppix. I am amazed by how easily it autoconfigures, especially considering that I still can't quite get X to run under debian on a computer that I built myself (knoppix handles it quite knicely). If you go to http://www.knoppix.net/docs/index.php/KnoppixCustomizations and then look at the very last one, Zope, there is a link to a distribution that claims to include Python 2.3 and VPython. It also seems to contain other educational stuff. This is a secondhand reccommendation; I have played with it as far as "yes, it does boot and is quite pretty", but I haven't yet ensured that it won't write to and destroy an NTFS volume. As with any linux bootcd, make sure that you use extreme caution with writing to ntfs and that you run ntfsfix when you are done if applicable. FAT should be fine though. Good luck. From jj2kk4 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 12:11:16 2004 From: jj2kk4 at yahoo.com (Joel Kahn) Date: Sun Sep 26 12:11:19 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Usage Message-ID: <20040926101116.10729.qmail@web51705.mail.yahoo.com> A rather belated reply, but my schedule will be like that for the rest of the semester. :-( Lloyd Hugh Allen wrote: >It is very important to make friends with your >immediate superior at the Support Center >equivalent and with your principal so that >you can get the freedom to take one or two >machines aside and play with them. It is >extremely difficult to maintain stuff that you >don't have the freedom to experiment on. I *do* have good relationships so far with both my tech boss and my principal, and I plan to keep it that way as much as possible. Between the general instability of our aging network and the limitations on my technical expertise, there is no way I'm putting Knoppix into the CD-ROM drive of one of our school's machines. The only way for me to get the permission to do it would be for me to promise that nothing could possibly go wrong, and then the next of our frequent crashes would be blamed on me whether it was the fault of Knoppix or not. No, any really experimental work will have to be done on totally separate hardware, owned by me, for a long while. I do have an ancient Win95 desktop set up in a corner of the computer lab; my wife and I brought it in from home. Its OK for tinkering with some limited stuff, but a laptop with even slightly better guts under the hood would make many more things possible. If any of you have a still-functional notebook machine that has been completely superseded and that is now simply lurking in a corner, let's talk. Joel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Sep 27 03:29:49 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Sep 27 03:29:52 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Usage In-Reply-To: <20040926101116.10729.qmail@web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040927012951.D8BBE1E4003@bag.python.org> > I do have an ancient Win95 desktop set up in a corner > of the computer lab; my wife and I brought it in from > home. Its OK for tinkering with some limited stuff, If this is about Python (I missed the beginning of the thread -- but it's edu-sig, so I assume so), then you don't need Knoppix. Just install Python on Win95. It's not a risky procedure. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Sep 27 03:34:16 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Sep 27 03:34:20 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] More play with PIL In-Reply-To: <20040926101116.10729.qmail@web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040927013418.21CA41E4003@bag.python.org> I'd done some fractal stuff w/ Python ages ago, but with encouragement from a geochemist I've been corresponding with, I added color to what had been only gray-scaled fractals. What's cool is I could add color in PIL with no net addition of code -- I took out as many lines as I added (about four, either way). http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/fractals.html Also, I added a new web page featuring a spirograph kind of output (using PIL again) at: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/cardiods.html Again, my geochemist friend was the source of the inspiration -- actually of the code itself in this case, but in Pascal. Kirby