From peter at mapledesign.co.uk Thu Oct 7 09:56:38 2004 From: peter at mapledesign.co.uk (Peter Bowyer) Date: Thu Oct 7 09:56:44 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Advice: is python suitable? Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20041007085015.03430d90@127.0.0.1> Hello list, This is semi off-topic, so I'd better introduce myself :-) I'm studying physics at the University of Southampton, and joined this list as I hope to use my final year project to create physics simulations in Python to aid students, or (even better) write course material to teach the students how to think about the physics concepts (and program at the same time...). That is still a year away, and I've not experimented much with Python yet to see how feasible it would be to do this kind of thing. This year I'm taking a course in computational physics, which allows the use of any programming language. The notes however are skewed towards the department's in-house languages (variations on BASIC and C). I'm hoping one of you could look at the course notes and tell me if there's anything here that is not possible to do in Python? They are at http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006b.pdf for the BASIC version, and http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006c.pdf for the C version. Thanks, Peter -- Maple Design - quality web design and programming http://www.mapledesign.co.uk From kent37 at tds.net Thu Oct 7 13:36:58 2004 From: kent37 at tds.net (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu Oct 7 13:37:01 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Advice: is python suitable? Message-ID: <200410071136.i97Bawhh002052@outbound3.mail.tds.net> Peter, In general Python has many advantages over C and Basic. It is much higher-level than C, it has a cleaner syntax and better abilities for program structuring than Basic, etc., etc. But of course anyone on this list will feel the same way :-) To address your specific question, first I should say that I don't really know what I am talking about - I don't have experience solving physics problems in Python. But looking at the class exercises I don't see anything that can't be done in Python. The biggest problem you will have is just being different. First you will have to learn Python, and learn the Python equivalents to what you are shown in C and Basic. Second, the C and Basic packages your school uses have been enhanced with tools for your problem domain, for example the graph() and fft() functions. You will have to find comparable tools in Python and learn how to use them. If you have problems you will have to find help outside of school also. My suggestion is to try solving the class exercises in Python. This will force you to address these issues early. If you are successful you can continue with Python for your projects. By the way, on this list you will find an enthusiastic reception to your plan to use Python to _teach_ physics. Kent > > From: Peter Bowyer > Date: 2004/10/07 Thu AM 03:56:38 EDT > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] Advice: is python suitable? > > Hello list, > > This is semi off-topic, so I'd better introduce myself :-) > I'm studying physics at the University of Southampton, and joined this list > as I hope to use my final year project to create physics simulations in > Python to aid students, or (even better) write course material to teach the > students how to think about the physics concepts (and program at the same > time...). That is still a year away, and I've not experimented much with > Python yet to see how feasible it would be to do this kind of thing. > > This year I'm taking a course in computational physics, which allows the > use of any programming language. The notes however are skewed towards the > department's in-house languages (variations on BASIC and C). I'm hoping > one of you could look at the course notes and tell me if there's anything > here that is not possible to do in Python? They are at > http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006b.pdf for > the BASIC version, and > http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006c.pdf for > the C version. > > Thanks, > Peter > > -- > Maple Design - quality web design and programming > http://www.mapledesign.co.uk > > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From holbert.13 at osu.edu Thu Oct 7 14:46:58 2004 From: holbert.13 at osu.edu (Rick Holbert) Date: Thu Oct 7 14:47:04 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Advice: is python suitable? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20041007085015.03430d90@127.0.0.1> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20041007085015.03430d90@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <200410070846.58732.holbert.13@osu.edu> Seems like it's good enough for Oxford... http://www-teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk/computing/ProgrammingResources/Oxford/handbook_Python_html/handbook_Python.html Here are a few more links that may be of some help: http://www.scipy.org/ http://www.swig.org/papers/Py97/beazley.html http://physics.syr.edu/~salgado/software/vpython/ Rick On Thursday 07 October 2004 03:56, Peter Bowyer wrote: > Hello list, > > This is semi off-topic, so I'd better introduce myself :-) > I'm studying physics at the University of Southampton, and joined this list > as I hope to use my final year project to create physics simulations in > Python to aid students, or (even better) write course material to teach the > students how to think about the physics concepts (and program at the same > time...). That is still a year away, and I've not experimented much with > Python yet to see how feasible it would be to do this kind of thing. > > This year I'm taking a course in computational physics, which allows the > use of any programming language. The notes however are skewed towards the > department's in-house languages (variations on BASIC and C). I'm hoping > one of you could look at the course notes and tell me if there's anything > here that is not possible to do in Python? They are at > http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006b.pdf for > the BASIC version, and > http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006c.pdf for > the C version. > > Thanks, > Peter From barrett at stsci.edu Thu Oct 7 16:11:17 2004 From: barrett at stsci.edu (Paul Barrett) Date: Thu Oct 7 16:11:26 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Advice: is python suitable? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20041007085015.03430d90@127.0.0.1> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20041007085015.03430d90@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <41654E85.6090302@stsci.edu> Peter Bowyer wrote: > Hello list, > > This is semi off-topic, so I'd better introduce myself :-) > I'm studying physics at the University of Southampton, and joined this > list as I hope to use my final year project to create physics > simulations in Python to aid students, or (even better) write course > material to teach the students how to think about the physics concepts > (and program at the same time...). That is still a year away, and I've > not experimented much with Python yet to see how feasible it would be to > do this kind of thing. > > This year I'm taking a course in computational physics, which allows the > use of any programming language. The notes however are skewed towards > the department's in-house languages (variations on BASIC and C). I'm > hoping one of you could look at the course notes and tell me if there's > anything here that is not possible to do in Python? They are at > http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006b.pdf > for the BASIC version, and > http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006c.pdf > for the C version. I've been using Python for numerical work for over 8 years now without feeling constained. Of course, I supplement Python with C which enables me to solve or implement the 10% of the problems that Python does not do well, such as improved numerical performance or very low level programming. I'd suggest going to the SciPy website to get a feel for what is currently available. They have made many numerical algorithms available to Python and to Python's numerical extension models. One utility/application that you should also take a look at in order to improve numerical performance is 'Weave', which allows you to embed C code directly into your Python code. Weave will then wrap, compile, and use this code fragment on-the-fly. This eliminates the need for having to wrap your own C code to improve performance. And finally, there is much work on improving the interface between C++ and Python, so that your C++ classes appear transparently as Python classes. Python is used as a steering language in this case and the C++ does all of the heavy lifting. There is a massively parallel 3D hydrocode being developed at Lawrence-Livermore Nat. Lab that is being implemented in this way. The benefit of this approach is that the C++ classes can be used and tested interactively via Python. Of course this is not possible in a pure C++ environment. This approach provides a huge boost to productivity and reliability. -- Paul -- Paul Barrett, PhD Space Telescope Science Institute Phone: 410-338-4475 ESS/Science Software Branch FAX: 410-338-4767 Baltimore, MD 21218 From d.holton at vanderbilt.edu Thu Oct 7 16:58:53 2004 From: d.holton at vanderbilt.edu (Doug Holton) Date: Thu Oct 7 16:59:09 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Advice: is python suitable? In-Reply-To: <20041007100003.D578A1E4010@bag.python.org> References: <20041007100003.D578A1E4010@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <416559AD.8080006@vanderbilt.edu> > This is semi off-topic, so I'd better introduce myself :-) > I'm studying physics at the University of Southampton, and joined this list > as I hope to use my final year project to create physics simulations in > Python to aid students, or (even better) write course material to teach the > students how to think about the physics concepts (and program at the same > time...). That is still a year away, and I've not experimented much with > Python yet to see how feasible it would be to do this kind of thing. It looks like the course is more focused on programming the mathematical aspects of the physics, and not so much on visualizing what is going on, except for maybe a plot of the numbers. It is more about creating simulations for a physicist rather than a student. So that means for the course you wouldn't for example need to use 3D to visualize a simulation. You could get through the course just fine using the Python module numarray (for matrix algebra) and matplotlib for plotting: http://www.stsci.edu/resources/software_hardware/numarray http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/ But you should definitely check out Java as well. This library is specifically designed for creating physics simulations: http://www.opensourcephysics.org/ http://developers.coedit.net/ComputerSimulation As another alternative to Python, you can use .NET/Mono compatible libraries http://developers.coedit.net/DotNetProgramming for things like matrix operations: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=c%23+matrix+operations or plotting http://www.netcontrols.org/scpl/ http://zedgraph.sourceforge.net/ http://csharp-source.net/open-source/charting-and-reporting I've been using boo, a .NET compatible language very similar to Python: http://boo.codehaus.org/ From peter at mapledesign.co.uk Thu Oct 7 18:11:02 2004 From: peter at mapledesign.co.uk (Peter Bowyer) Date: Thu Oct 7 18:11:07 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Advice: is python suitable? In-Reply-To: <416559AD.8080006@vanderbilt.edu> References: <20041007100003.D578A1E4010@bag.python.org> <416559AD.8080006@vanderbilt.edu> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20041007161734.033afec0@127.0.0.1> Hello Doug (and the list), First, thanks to all of you for your feedback so far - it's much appreciated! At 15:58 07/10/2004, you wrote: >It looks like the course is more focused on programming the mathematical >aspects of the physics, and not so much on visualizing what is going on, >except for maybe a plot of the numbers. It is more about creating >simulations for a physicist rather than a student. > >So that means for the course you wouldn't for example need to use 3D to >visualize a simulation. Agreed. I used VPython once last year to do a simulation of the Coriolis effect and found it to be very easy to use, if the graphics were a little poor. >You could get through the course just fine using the Python module >numarray (for matrix algebra) and matplotlib for plotting: > >But you should definitely check out Java as well. This library is >specifically designed for creating physics simulations: >http://www.opensourcephysics.org/ >http://developers.coedit.net/ComputerSimulation Thanks for the links. I've never done any Java programming so it'd be a bigger step away from what I'm used to (most prior experience has been PHP or very basic C), but for the teaching material (if I get to do this as my project) it looks more suitable than Python. Regards, Peter -- Maple Design - quality web design and programming http://www.mapledesign.co.uk From H.FANGOHR at soton.ac.uk Thu Oct 7 18:36:43 2004 From: H.FANGOHR at soton.ac.uk (Hans Fangohr) Date: Thu Oct 7 18:37:15 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Advice: is python suitable? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20041007085015.03430d90@127.0.0.1> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20041007085015.03430d90@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dear Peter, > This is semi off-topic, so I'd better introduce myself :-) > I'm studying physics at the University of Southampton, and joined this list > as I hope to use my final year project to create physics simulations in > Python to aid students, or (even better) write course material to teach the > students how to think about the physics concepts (and program at the same > time...). That is still a year away, and I've not experimented much with > Python yet to see how feasible it would be to do this kind of thing. > > This year I'm taking a course in computational physics, which allows the use > of any programming language. The notes however are skewed towards the > department's in-house languages (variations on BASIC and C). I'm hoping one > of you could look at the course notes and tell me if there's anything here > that is not possible to do in Python? They are at > http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006b.pdf for > the BASIC version, and > http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006c.pdf for > the C version. I have taken part in this module (in 1996) ;-). It is actually a very good introduction to computer simulations and physics (in my mind). The modified versions of C and Basic are very close to Python: they provide high-level constructs to generate graphs etc. The teacher of that module did a good job in providing these (and he did that long before Python became well known). In short, if you look at matplotlib for plotting, you should be able to do all the exercises. Best wishes, Hans ------------------------------------------------- Dr Hans Fangohr Computational Engineering & Design Research Group School of Engineering Sciences University of Southampton Southampton, SO17 1BJ United Kingdom Location: Building 25, Room 1027 phone : +44 (0) 23 8059 8345 fax : +44 (0) 23 8059 7082 email : fangohr@soton.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------- From urnerk at qwest.net Thu Oct 7 20:28:30 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu Oct 7 20:28:35 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Advice: is python suitable? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20041007085015.03430d90@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20041007182833.E60E51E4004@bag.python.org> Hi Peter -- I looked the 3006b.pdf. I don't think enough specifications are provided regarding what is meant by a "scientific language" before negative judgments are passed on Java and the scripting languages. I don't immediately trust that the authors know what they're talking about. Like this paragraph: Scripting languages such as Tcl, Perl and Python are not in themselves scientific languages but can be used to tie together code in other languages and provide user interfaces. Way too dismissive. Especially in light of their earlier spec (one of the few offered): "It is the overall time for writing, debugging and running that is important." Exactly, and a scripting language may save you a lot of time in the writing and debugging steps. The runtime speed gains you'd get from doing the same work in C (or assembler) may be of little consequence in a typical setting. Scientific calculations based on real data or constants are usually fine with IEEE 754 floating point ( http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/754/ ). Material such as the following, about the peculiarities of binary-based arithmetic, may belong in any introduction -- I see 3006b.pdf discusses some of these same topics: http://docs.python.org/tut/node15.html Anyway, Python is entirely suitable for doing physics computations. There's also add-on called Numeric that will provide more of the linear algebra and FFT if you need it (I notice the Forest Basic programs come with a library procedure for eigenvalues -- Numeric would be the counterpart). The Forest Basic programs also have some graph-making library. Python is not welded to any one graphics technology, because there are so many, although Tk is included in the standard distro, and so has out-of-the-box capability (I like Zelle's wrapper for Tkinter in this connection). My approach to graphing, for example, has been rather unconventional: I've pressed a free 3D rendering package into service, using Python to write the scene (e.g. http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/catenary.html ). The more ordinary approach would involve using Python bindings to gnuplot (http://www.gnuplot.info/ ) for example. ( http://gnuplot-py.sourceforge.net/ ) Python has already made many inroads in the scientific community. You should draw your own conclusions through study, but at least have peace of mind at the outset that you're not barking up the wrong tree. Check out VPython as well -- a simple 3D graphics library developed at Carnegie Mellon for use in their physics curriculum (of course it has other applications as well). Kirby > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Bowyer > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:57 AM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] Advice: is python suitable? > > Hello list, > > This is semi off-topic, so I'd better introduce myself :-) > I'm studying physics at the University of Southampton, and joined this > list > as I hope to use my final year project to create physics simulations in > Python to aid students, or (even better) write course material to teach > the > students how to think about the physics concepts (and program at the same > time...). That is still a year away, and I've not experimented much with > Python yet to see how feasible it would be to do this kind of thing. > > This year I'm taking a course in computational physics, which allows the > use of any programming language. The notes however are skewed towards the > department's in-house languages (variations on BASIC and C). I'm hoping > one of you could look at the course notes and tell me if there's anything > here that is not possible to do in Python? They are at > http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006b.pdf > for > the BASIC version, and > http://www.phys.soton.ac.uk/teach/year3/notes/ph314/notes/phys3006c.pdf > for > the C version. > > Thanks, > Peter > > -- > Maple Design - quality web design and programming > http://www.mapledesign.co.uk From lac at strakt.com Fri Oct 8 02:19:25 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri Oct 8 02:19:29 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Advice: is python suitable? In-Reply-To: Message from "Kirby Urner" of "Thu, 07 Oct 2004 11:28:30 PDT." <20041007182833.E60E51E4004@bag.python.org> References: <20041007182833.E60E51E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <200410080019.i980JQUK000511@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> It doesn't look as if you need 3D plotting to me, but if you do http://mayavi.sourceforge.net/screenshots/index.html is absolutely simple to script in Python. Laura Creighton From urnerk at qwest.net Thu Oct 14 19:14:23 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu Oct 14 19:14:27 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front In-Reply-To: <20041007182833.E60E51E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20041014171426.1B61A1E4002@bag.python.org> Couple of things: Jim Leisy, publisher of John Zelle's intro to programming college and/or high school text, invited me to Willamette University last Friday to observe (and contribute to) a presentation on Python for the CS track. The audience consisted of CS teachers from around the northwest region. A prof from Idaho (Lewis-Clark College) shared her PowerPoint about Python. She'd taught many languages over the years, and had done the Scheme intensive at Rice. However, after taking Zelle's workshop, she was persuaded to go with Python and she's never looked back. Retention (keeping would-be CS majors from dropping out) is now less of a problem (students enjoy programming more), and those taking her course to fulfill requirements of another major (e.g. science, math, engineering) come away more satisfied and equipped to move forward. One thing I learned during the presentation was that accreditation in some curricula requires at least 3 years with a specific language (?). A prof from Texas said the only reason they were still using Java is that Zelle's text didn't span a full three years. Jim was a little surprised at this implied market, as his assumption has been "use Python as an intro, then switch to a statically typed system language for balance." I agree that more than one language, including exposure to compiled, statically typed languages, should be a part of any CS sequence. In any case, it was a productive presentation, with Jim giving a free copy of Zelle's text to everyone present. A few of the profs in the audience were already using Python and spoke highly of it. I fielded a few questions from the sidelines, mostly relating to graphics. One guy objected that Python might be fine for production programming, but in the academic context, having procedural, functional and object-oriented paradigms all mixed together lacked rigor. I assured people that the object-oriented paradigm (everything is an object) could be taken as a base paradigm, with the others developed on top of it (even in procedural code, the prevalence of dot notation speaks to the omnipresence of objects). The presenter transitions to C++ in the second year. She said that whereas starting with C++ or even Java tended to promote burnout, once students had done Python for a year, C++ was no longer all that difficult -- annoying, yes, but not that difficult. The other thing: I'm developing a "numeracy text" which demonstrates how I'd like to see things weaving together in the early years (this text might start to be relevant in 8th grade or so -- depends on the kid obviously). Python is incorporated. I've written six chapters. A notable "omission" is that I'm always referring to off stage computer games and simulations that don't actually exist yet (or do, but I'm not providing them). This is a way of enlisting the reader's imagination, and a collaboration strategy -- more than one implementation of any exercise might be offered. Feedback welcome: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/numeracy101.pdf -- I'll be adding more text, improving existing text, as time permits. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Thu Oct 14 19:37:43 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu Oct 14 19:37:44 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front (erratum) In-Reply-To: <20041014171426.1B61A1E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20041014173743.92D1E1E4002@bag.python.org> > Feedback welcome: > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/numeracy101.pdf My apologies: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/pdfs/numeracy101.pdf Kirby From john.zelle at wartburg.edu Thu Oct 14 21:44:39 2004 From: john.zelle at wartburg.edu (John Zelle) Date: Thu Oct 14 21:46:18 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front In-Reply-To: <20041014171426.1B61A1E4002@bag.python.org> References: <20041014171426.1B61A1E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <416ED727.3050507@wartburg.edu> Kirby, Thanks for this retrospective. I've also talked to Jim a little bit about this event (wish I could have been there to meet you). I have a couple comments below. Kirby Urner wrote: >Couple of things: > >Jim Leisy, publisher of John Zelle's intro to programming college and/or >high school text, invited me to Willamette University last Friday to observe >(and contribute to) a presentation on Python for the CS track. > >The audience consisted of CS teachers from around the northwest region. A >prof from Idaho (Lewis-Clark College) shared her PowerPoint about Python. >She'd taught many languages over the years, and had done the Scheme >intensive at Rice. However, after taking Zelle's workshop, she was >persuaded to go with Python and she's never looked back. > > This is a consistent comment from those who have tried Python in CS1. Once they try it, they would never go back to Java, C++, or whatever. >Retention (keeping would-be CS majors from dropping out) is now less of a >problem (students enjoy programming more), and those taking her course to >fulfill requirements of another major (e.g. science, math, engineering) come >away more satisfied and equipped to move forward. > > > Again, consistent with our experience here. >One thing I learned during the presentation was that accreditation in some >curricula requires at least 3 years with a specific language (?). A prof >from Texas said the only reason they were still using Java is that Zelle's >text didn't span a full three years. > > > I don't understand this comment. I am familiar with the ABET CSAB CS accreditation criteria and the ACM model curriculum, and I cannot find anything anywhere that even hints at the need for a three course sequence all in the same language. The CSAB criteria state: "Students must be exposed to a variety of programming languages and systems and must become proficient in at least one higher-level language." Perhaps some people equate "proficiency" with a three course sequence, but that is not explicitly stated anywhere that I can find. For a complex language like C++, proficiency might require that much study, for Python one to two courses is sufficient. >Jim was a little surprised at this implied market, as his assumption has >been "use Python as an intro, then switch to a statically typed system >language for balance." I agree that more than one language, including >exposure to compiled, statically typed languages, should be a part of any CS >sequence. > > > We are looking at various models for CS1, CS2 and subsequent classes. I can see a case for doing the first two courses explicitly in Python or for switching to C++ or Java somewhere in CS2. I see no reason at all for a full three course sequence in a single language. Studying multiple languages helps students learn what is universal to computation and what is just syntax. >In any case, it was a productive presentation, with Jim giving a free copy >of Zelle's text to everyone present. A few of the profs in the audience >were already using Python and spoke highly of it. I fielded a few questions >from the sidelines, mostly relating to graphics. > >One guy objected that Python might be fine for production programming, but >in the academic context, having procedural, functional and object-oriented >paradigms all mixed together lacked rigor. I assured people that the >object-oriented paradigm (everything is an object) could be taken as a base >paradigm, with the others developed on top of it (even in procedural code, >the prevalence of dot notation speaks to the omnipresence of objects). > > > This is a hoot. Now Python is getting flack for being a production language, but not academic enough? For years, I've had to fight the opposite argument. I appreciate your being able to provide a good answer here. Clearly Python is designed from the gound up to be an OO language. The fact that you can also illustrate other styles is a plus! That is also one of the strengths of a language like Scheme or Lisp--that it can illustrate multiple paradigms. I've never heard anyone complain that Scheme isn't "academically rigorous." :-) >The presenter transitions to C++ in the second year. She said that whereas >starting with C++ or even Java tended to promote burnout, once students had >done Python for a year, C++ was no longer all that difficult -- annoying, >yes, but not that difficult. > > Ditto our experience with Java in CS2. >The other thing: I'm developing a "numeracy text" which demonstrates how >I'd like to see things weaving together in the early years (this text might >start to be relevant in 8th grade or so -- depends on the kid obviously). > >Python is incorporated. I've written six chapters. A notable "omission" is >that I'm always referring to off stage computer games and simulations that >don't actually exist yet (or do, but I'm not providing them). This is a way >of enlisting the reader's imagination, and a collaboration strategy -- more >than one implementation of any exercise might be offered. > >Feedback welcome: >http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/numeracy101.pdf -- I'll be adding more text, >improving existing text, as time permits. > > > Keep up the good work, Kirby! From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Oct 14 22:19:41 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Thu Oct 14 22:21:22 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front Message-ID: <14722ea1472ab8.1472ab814722ea@optonline.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby Urner Date: Thursday, October 14, 2004 1:14 pm Subject: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front >> The other thing: I'm developing a "numeracy text" which > demonstrates how > I'd like to see things weaving together in the early years (this > text might > start to be relevant in 8th grade or so -- depends on the kid > obviously). > I haven't read through it all, but initial impression is a wish that you might generalize a bit more. That is, de-emphasize "numbers", without de-emphasing mathematics. I think the concept that numbers are one, but only one, manifestestion of mathematical ideas/truths is something that should be communicated earlier, and more clearly. And that computers are important, both in making the manipulation of numbers trivial, and facilitating an approach that allows folks to understand that math is not numbers, and numbers is not math. It was only when I was able to decouple (in my mind) mathematics from numbers that math became truly interesting to me. I also think that this approach allows a more natural utilization of computer graphic capacities to enliven an approach to mathematics. Like all of us, I try to envision what might have best reached me when I was of the age that you are trying to reach. And rely on a sense that there is nothing particularly unusual about my own particular sensibilities in these matters. Art From rsenra at acm.org Fri Oct 15 02:53:36 2004 From: rsenra at acm.org (Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra) Date: Fri Oct 15 02:53:33 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front In-Reply-To: <416ED727.3050507@wartburg.edu> References: <20041014171426.1B61A1E4002@bag.python.org> <416ED727.3050507@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: <20041014215336.729f9943@Goku> [ John Zelle ] ----------------------------------------------- | We are looking at various models for CS1, CS2 and subsequent classes. I | can see a case for doing the first two courses explicitly in Python or | for switching to C++ or Java somewhere in CS2. I see no reason at all | for a full three course sequence in a single language. Studying multiple | languages helps students learn what is universal to computation and what | is just syntax. Indeed. Moreover, Python's affinity with other languages (C,Java and Object Pascal) makes that multi-language path easy to follow. I used to have the following problems teaching an undergraduate course in Data Structures (just linked lists and binary trees): - many students delved into implementing the data structure before acquiring the experience of using such data structures - after implementing the data structure, many students did not tested it properly before delivering the project My approach was to use Python in the introductory course, then move to C in the following courses. Python gave them the experience of using lists and dictionaries before having to implement those. Moreover, the data structure projects became python modules, making automated correction a breeze. cheers, Senra -- ,_ | ) Rodrigo Senra |(______ ----------------------------------------------- _( (|__|] GPr Sistemas http://www.gpr.com.br _ | (|___|] IC - Unicamp http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 ___ (|__|] L___(|_|] ----------------------------------------------- From samtani at ISI.EDU Fri Oct 15 16:35:16 2004 From: samtani at ISI.EDU (Prasan Samtani) Date: Fri Oct 15 16:35:35 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 15, Issue 4 References: <20041015100004.A11F81E4015@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <000801c4b2c4$3342da90$6500a8c0@mard> Interestingly enough, even going the other way around helps to expand the way students think about computation. I find it intensely satisfying to talk about Python to a group of juniors or seniors who have been exposed to 'lesser' languages ;) like C++ or Java. For these groups, you can just go straight to the more powerful features, and watch the look of disbelief on their faces as they realize that C++ libraries like Boost and Loki simply provide (in a slightly twisted way) what python provides out of the box. Tuples, functions as first-class objects, and consequently lambdas and generators have a sense of coolness when they are first come across (and since students at this level have often been exposed to Boost's implementations of these concepts, they cant help being attracted to the simplicity of the way Python handles these ideas). Of course, since its a game programming course, the students use C++ for most of the class, using Python as a scripting language, but one thing I notice is that there a tendency for the students to favor doing everything in scripts with this approach :). Prasan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 3:00 AM Subject: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 15, Issue 4 > Send Edu-sig mailing list submissions to > edu-sig@python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > edu-sig-request@python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > edu-sig-owner@python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Edu-sig digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Developments on the Urner front (Kirby Urner) > 2. RE: Developments on the Urner front (erratum) (Kirby Urner) > 3. Re: Developments on the Urner front (John Zelle) > 4. Re: Developments on the Urner front (ajsiegel@optonline.net) > 5. Re: Developments on the Urner front (Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:14:23 -0700 > From: "Kirby Urner" > Subject: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front > To: edu-sig@python.org > Message-ID: <20041014171426.1B61A1E4002@bag.python.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > Couple of things: > > Jim Leisy, publisher of John Zelle's intro to programming college and/or > high school text, invited me to Willamette University last Friday to observe > (and contribute to) a presentation on Python for the CS track. > > The audience consisted of CS teachers from around the northwest region. A > prof from Idaho (Lewis-Clark College) shared her PowerPoint about Python. > She'd taught many languages over the years, and had done the Scheme > intensive at Rice. However, after taking Zelle's workshop, she was > persuaded to go with Python and she's never looked back. > > Retention (keeping would-be CS majors from dropping out) is now less of a > problem (students enjoy programming more), and those taking her course to > fulfill requirements of another major (e.g. science, math, engineering) come > away more satisfied and equipped to move forward. > > One thing I learned during the presentation was that accreditation in some > curricula requires at least 3 years with a specific language (?). A prof > from Texas said the only reason they were still using Java is that Zelle's > text didn't span a full three years. > > Jim was a little surprised at this implied market, as his assumption has > been "use Python as an intro, then switch to a statically typed system > language for balance." I agree that more than one language, including > exposure to compiled, statically typed languages, should be a part of any CS > sequence. > > In any case, it was a productive presentation, with Jim giving a free copy > of Zelle's text to everyone present. A few of the profs in the audience > were already using Python and spoke highly of it. I fielded a few questions > from the sidelines, mostly relating to graphics. > > One guy objected that Python might be fine for production programming, but > in the academic context, having procedural, functional and object-oriented > paradigms all mixed together lacked rigor. I assured people that the > object-oriented paradigm (everything is an object) could be taken as a base > paradigm, with the others developed on top of it (even in procedural code, > the prevalence of dot notation speaks to the omnipresence of objects). > > The presenter transitions to C++ in the second year. She said that whereas > starting with C++ or even Java tended to promote burnout, once students had > done Python for a year, C++ was no longer all that difficult -- annoying, > yes, but not that difficult. > > The other thing: I'm developing a "numeracy text" which demonstrates how > I'd like to see things weaving together in the early years (this text might > start to be relevant in 8th grade or so -- depends on the kid obviously). > > Python is incorporated. I've written six chapters. A notable "omission" is > that I'm always referring to off stage computer games and simulations that > don't actually exist yet (or do, but I'm not providing them). This is a way > of enlisting the reader's imagination, and a collaboration strategy -- more > than one implementation of any exercise might be offered. > > Feedback welcome: > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/numeracy101.pdf -- I'll be adding more text, > improving existing text, as time permits. > > Kirby > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:37:43 -0700 > From: "Kirby Urner" > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front (erratum) > To: edu-sig@python.org > Message-ID: <20041014173743.92D1E1E4002@bag.python.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > Feedback welcome: > > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/numeracy101.pdf > > My apologies: > > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/pdfs/numeracy101.pdf > > Kirby > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:44:39 -0500 > From: John Zelle > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front > To: Kirby Urner , edu-sig@python.org > Message-ID: <416ED727.3050507@wartburg.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Kirby, > > Thanks for this retrospective. I've also talked to Jim a little bit > about this event (wish I could have been there to meet you). I have a > couple comments below. > > Kirby Urner wrote: > > >Couple of things: > > > >Jim Leisy, publisher of John Zelle's intro to programming college and/or > >high school text, invited me to Willamette University last Friday to observe > >(and contribute to) a presentation on Python for the CS track. > > > >The audience consisted of CS teachers from around the northwest region. A > >prof from Idaho (Lewis-Clark College) shared her PowerPoint about Python. > >She'd taught many languages over the years, and had done the Scheme > >intensive at Rice. However, after taking Zelle's workshop, she was > >persuaded to go with Python and she's never looked back. > > > > > This is a consistent comment from those who have tried Python in CS1. > Once they try it, they would never go back to Java, C++, or whatever. > > >Retention (keeping would-be CS majors from dropping out) is now less of a > >problem (students enjoy programming more), and those taking her course to > >fulfill requirements of another major (e.g. science, math, engineering) come > >away more satisfied and equipped to move forward. > > > > > > > Again, consistent with our experience here. > > >One thing I learned during the presentation was that accreditation in some > >curricula requires at least 3 years with a specific language (?). A prof > >from Texas said the only reason they were still using Java is that Zelle's > >text didn't span a full three years. > > > > > > > I don't understand this comment. I am familiar with the ABET CSAB CS > accreditation criteria and the ACM model curriculum, and I cannot find > anything anywhere that even hints at the need for a three course > sequence all in the same language. The CSAB criteria state: "Students > must be exposed to a variety of programming languages and systems and > must become proficient in at least one higher-level language." Perhaps > some people equate "proficiency" with a three course sequence, but that > is not explicitly stated anywhere that I can find. For a complex > language like C++, proficiency might require that much study, for Python > one to two courses is sufficient. > > >Jim was a little surprised at this implied market, as his assumption has > >been "use Python as an intro, then switch to a statically typed system > >language for balance." I agree that more than one language, including > >exposure to compiled, statically typed languages, should be a part of any CS > >sequence. > > > > > > > We are looking at various models for CS1, CS2 and subsequent classes. I > can see a case for doing the first two courses explicitly in Python or > for switching to C++ or Java somewhere in CS2. I see no reason at all > for a full three course sequence in a single language. Studying multiple > languages helps students learn what is universal to computation and what > is just syntax. > > >In any case, it was a productive presentation, with Jim giving a free copy > >of Zelle's text to everyone present. A few of the profs in the audience > >were already using Python and spoke highly of it. I fielded a few questions > >from the sidelines, mostly relating to graphics. > > > >One guy objected that Python might be fine for production programming, but > >in the academic context, having procedural, functional and object-oriented > >paradigms all mixed together lacked rigor. I assured people that the > >object-oriented paradigm (everything is an object) could be taken as a base > >paradigm, with the others developed on top of it (even in procedural code, > >the prevalence of dot notation speaks to the omnipresence of objects). > > > > > > > This is a hoot. Now Python is getting flack for being a production > language, but not academic enough? For years, I've had to fight the > opposite argument. I appreciate your being able to provide a good answer > here. Clearly Python is designed from the gound up to be an OO language. > The fact that you can also illustrate other styles is a plus! That is > also one of the strengths of a language like Scheme or Lisp--that it can > illustrate multiple paradigms. I've never heard anyone complain that > Scheme isn't "academically rigorous." :-) > > >The presenter transitions to C++ in the second year. She said that whereas > >starting with C++ or even Java tended to promote burnout, once students had > >done Python for a year, C++ was no longer all that difficult -- annoying, > >yes, but not that difficult. > > > > > Ditto our experience with Java in CS2. > > >The other thing: I'm developing a "numeracy text" which demonstrates how > >I'd like to see things weaving together in the early years (this text might > >start to be relevant in 8th grade or so -- depends on the kid obviously). > > > >Python is incorporated. I've written six chapters. A notable "omission" is > >that I'm always referring to off stage computer games and simulations that > >don't actually exist yet (or do, but I'm not providing them). This is a way > >of enlisting the reader's imagination, and a collaboration strategy -- more > >than one implementation of any exercise might be offered. > > > >Feedback welcome: > >http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/numeracy101.pdf -- I'll be adding more text, > >improving existing text, as time permits. > > > > > > > Keep up the good work, Kirby! > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:19:41 -0400 > From: ajsiegel@optonline.net > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front > To: Kirby Urner > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Message-ID: <14722ea1472ab8.1472ab814722ea@optonline.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirby Urner > Date: Thursday, October 14, 2004 1:14 pm > Subject: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front > > >> The other thing: I'm developing a "numeracy text" which > > demonstrates how > > I'd like to see things weaving together in the early years (this > > text might > > start to be relevant in 8th grade or so -- depends on the kid > > obviously). > > > > I haven't read through it all, but initial impression is a wish that you might generalize a bit more. That is, de-emphasize "numbers", without de-emphasing mathematics. I think the concept that numbers are one, but only one, manifestestion of mathematical ideas/truths is something that should be communicated earlier, and more clearly. And that computers are important, both in making the manipulation of numbers trivial, and facilitating an approach that allows folks to understand that math is not numbers, and numbers is not math. > > It was only when I was able to decouple (in my mind) mathematics from numbers that math became truly interesting to me. > > I also think that this approach allows a more natural utilization of computer graphic capacities to enliven an approach to mathematics. > > Like all of us, I try to envision what might have best reached me when I was of the age that you are trying to reach. And rely on a sense that there is nothing particularly unusual about my own particular sensibilities in these matters. > > Art > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 21:53:36 -0300 > From: Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Developments on the Urner front > To: edu-sig@python.org > Message-ID: <20041014215336.729f9943@Goku> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > [ John Zelle ] > ----------------------------------------------- > | We are looking at various models for CS1, CS2 and subsequent classes. I > | can see a case for doing the first two courses explicitly in Python or > | for switching to C++ or Java somewhere in CS2. I see no reason at all > | for a full three course sequence in a single language. Studying multiple > | languages helps students learn what is universal to computation and what > | is just syntax. > > Indeed. Moreover, Python's affinity with other languages (C,Java and Object > Pascal) makes that multi-language path easy to follow. > > I used to have the following problems teaching an undergraduate course in > Data Structures (just linked lists and binary trees): > > - many students delved into implementing the data structure before acquiring > the experience of using such data structures > > - after implementing the data structure, many students did not tested it > properly before delivering the project > > My approach was to use Python in the introductory course, then move to C > in the following courses. Python gave them the experience of using lists > and dictionaries before having to implement those. Moreover, the > data structure projects became python modules, making automated correction > a breeze. > > > cheers, > Senra > > > -- > ,_ > | ) Rodrigo Senra > |(______ ----------------------------------------------- > _( (|__|] GPr Sistemas http://www.gpr.com.br > _ | (|___|] IC - Unicamp http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 > ___ (|__|] > L___(|_|] ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > > End of Edu-sig Digest, Vol 15, Issue 4 > ************************************** > From tjd at sfu.ca Fri Oct 15 20:33:13 2004 From: tjd at sfu.ca (Toby Donaldson) Date: Fri Oct 15 20:33:28 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Developments on the Urner front Message-ID: <000f01c4b2e5$74465dc0$393957d1@surrey.sfu.ca> Here at Simon Fraser University we are using Python in our new first-year programming course. It's still a work in progress, but you can take a peek here at the course weblog: http://sweetness.typepad.com/cmpt_120_sfu_surrey_fall2/ The plan here is to use three different programming languages in the first three CS courses: Python, Java, and then C++ (for data structures and algorithms). Toby -- Dr. Toby Donaldson School of Computing Science (Surrey) Simon Fraser University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20041015/804c9cc8/attachment.html From ggbaker at cs.sfu.ca Fri Oct 15 21:41:36 2004 From: ggbaker at cs.sfu.ca (Greg Baker) Date: Fri Oct 15 21:41:41 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Developments on the Urner front In-Reply-To: <000f01c4b2e5$74465dc0$393957d1@surrey.sfu.ca> References: <000f01c4b2e5$74465dc0$393957d1@surrey.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <1097869295.5540.46.camel@lefty> On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 11:33, Toby Donaldson wrote: > Here at Simon Fraser University we are using Python in our new > first-year programming course. Hi, long-time lurker, first-time poster. I'm one of the other instructors doing the first year Python course here are SFU. I intend to release the course materials that are created for this course under the GNU FDL. The main Study Guide is still unfinished (I blame the students), but what I have at the moment is here: http://www.cs.sfu.ca/CC/120/ggbaker/guide/ I plan on releasing the LaTeX source once it's at a complete first-draft stage. I will be posting most of the the second half of the course very soon (as we are getting to the second half of the semester). A goal in the design was to teach a more broad "computer science" course, instead of just programming. My feeling is that Python has allowed this since I have to spend less time fussing with the details of the language. I can spend time giving an introduction to "real" CS topics (algorithms, running time, binary representation, etc). Students get a better sense of what CS is and get a little break between programming language concepts to absorb and appreciate. On the other hand, I've found it hard to motivate using pseudocode to plan a program, since the pseudocode that I write looks so much like Python. That would never be a problem in C. :-) -- Greg Baker, Lecturer School of Computing Science Simon Fraser University Burnaby, BC, V5A 1S6 E-mail: ggbaker@cs.sfu.ca From mtashbook at mailbolt.com Mon Oct 18 04:57:23 2004 From: mtashbook at mailbolt.com (Michael S. Tashbook) Date: Mon Oct 18 04:57:26 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Using Jython to merge Python and Java for CS1 Message-ID: <1098068243.18377.206666070@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi, folks, I'm a long-time lurker, first-time poster. I'm in a bit of a pickle, and I think I may have found a way out, but I wanted to get some sage advice from you guys and gals before I do anything rash. Apologies in advance if this is a bit long-winded. I'm currently in my first semester of teaching CS -- up till now, I've been a grad student TA, so I really didn't have any say in course design. One of my courses is CS1, which is taught in Java. Technically, there's a prerequisite course to mine, which is supposed to expose the students to very, very basic programming (in Java) before they hit their first "real" CS course. From what I can tell, though, and contrary to what I was initially led to believe, the students are still have virtually no programming experience. As you're no doubt aware, Java isn't really the best way for new programmers to cut their teeth. Java 1.5 will help somewhat, especially with console I/O, but there's still a steep learning curve. While I pick up the pieces from this semester, I'm trying to figure out ways to do a better job in the spring. I'm a big fan of Python, and I sincerely believe that it's a better beginner's language than Java, but I'm limited by the constraint that subsequent CS courses (CS2 and CS3) expect the students to be proficient in Java. It occurred to me that I might be able to get the best of both worlds using Jython. Ideally, I would spend the first half to two-thirds of the class teaching basic programming and OOP in Python, via Jython. The last part of the semester would then transition the students to Java -- "Here's the Java way to do all the stuff we've been doing so far in Python." Since Jython is Java-based, I would expect that the transition would be fairly smooth, and the students could gradually increase the amount of Java in their code until they were eventually writing pure Java programs. Has anyone tried this approach? If so, was it successful, or are there "gotchas" that I need to watch out for? Am I overestimating the feature set of Jython? If possible, I'm looking for ammunition to use when I present this idea to the department chair. As I said, I'm still in my first year (and thus have to contend with my own inexperience and the fact that I only have a one-year contract at the moment), but I think that this would be a worthwhile experiment. In particular, my department (at SUNY Stony Brook) is looking to increase retention, and I think that a "kinder, gentler" approach to CS1 might help that goal. I'd greatly appreciate any feedback or insight anyone has to offer... Thanks, Mike Tashbook mtashbook@mailbolt.com From lac at strakt.com Mon Oct 18 06:46:10 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Oct 18 06:46:15 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Using Jython to merge Python and Java for CS1 In-Reply-To: Message from "Michael S. Tashbook" of "Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:57:23 EDT." <1098068243.18377.206666070@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1098068243.18377.206666070@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <200410180446.i9I4kBOl021033@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> I think that starting with Jython and moving to Java is an approach that Georgia Tech has used, but their media in computation course is enough different that it is hard to find out for sure. At any rate they appear to have a Java version of their course which uses Rice University's Dr. Java. http://www.cc.gatech.edu/news/cat.html is a place to start, but some things I think you are going to have to ask them. Laura From kent37 at tds.net Mon Oct 18 13:51:38 2004 From: kent37 at tds.net (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon Oct 18 13:51:45 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Using Jython to merge Python and Java for CS1 Message-ID: <200410181151.i9IBpchh006033@outbound3.mail.tds.net> Mike, I think you may be expecting too much of Jython. Jython code is Python - it uses Python syntax. A program that runs in CPython 2.1 and uses only libraries supported by Jython will run in Jython as well. What Jython does very well is integrate with Java libraries. For example a Jython program can use Swing for a GUI, or dom4j for XML access. The part of your plan I don't get is "gradually increase the amount of Java in their code until they were eventually writing pure Java programs." You can't mix Jython and Java in a single module. The Java pieces have to be separate from the Java pieces. You can write a Jython module that calls a class written in Java, for example. For a typical small class project I think this would be awkward. To run Jython you have to have a basic understanding of how to run Java programs, too. A better approach might be to start with CPython, then show the students how to do the same thing in Java. (I would expect groans of disbelief! Java is really painful compared to Python!) Then maybe you could show how Jython gives access to both worlds. You could use Jython as a way to introduce the Java libraries. For example writing a Swing application is much more pleasant in Jython than in Java, and the Jython interactive shell is a great way to explore Java APIs. Kent > > From: "Michael S. Tashbook" > Date: 2004/10/17 Sun PM 10:57:23 EDT > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] Using Jython to merge Python and Java for CS1 > > Hi, folks, > > I'm a long-time lurker, first-time poster. I'm in a bit of a pickle, and > I think I may have found a way out, but I wanted to get some sage advice > from you guys and gals before I do anything rash. Apologies in advance > if this is a bit long-winded. > > I'm currently in my first semester of teaching CS -- up till now, I've > been a grad student TA, so I really didn't have any say in course > design. One of my courses is CS1, which is taught in Java. Technically, > there's a prerequisite course to mine, which is supposed to expose the > students to very, very basic programming (in Java) before they hit their > first "real" CS course. From what I can tell, though, and contrary to > what I was initially led to believe, the students are still have > virtually no programming experience. As you're no doubt aware, Java > isn't really the best way for new programmers to cut their teeth. Java > 1.5 will help somewhat, especially with console I/O, but there's still a > steep learning curve. > > While I pick up the pieces from this semester, I'm trying to figure out > ways to do a better job in the spring. I'm a big fan of Python, and I > sincerely believe that it's a better beginner's language than Java, but > I'm limited by the constraint that subsequent CS courses (CS2 and CS3) > expect the students to be proficient in Java. > > It occurred to me that I might be able to get the best of both worlds > using Jython. Ideally, I would spend the first half to two-thirds of the > class teaching basic programming and OOP in Python, via Jython. The last > part of the semester would then transition the students to Java -- > "Here's the Java way to do all the stuff we've been doing so far in > Python." Since Jython is Java-based, I would expect that the transition > would be fairly smooth, and the students could gradually increase the > amount of Java in their code until they were eventually writing pure > Java programs. > > Has anyone tried this approach? If so, was it successful, or are there > "gotchas" that I need to watch out for? Am I overestimating the feature > set of Jython? > > If possible, I'm looking for ammunition to use when I present this idea > to the department chair. As I said, I'm still in my first year (and thus > have to contend with my own inexperience and the fact that I only have a > one-year contract at the moment), but I think that this would be a > worthwhile experiment. In particular, my department (at SUNY Stony > Brook) is looking to increase retention, and I think that a "kinder, > gentler" approach to CS1 might help that goal. > > I'd greatly appreciate any feedback or insight anyone has to offer... > > Thanks, > > Mike Tashbook > mtashbook@mailbolt.com > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From tjd at sfu.ca Mon Oct 18 18:34:34 2004 From: tjd at sfu.ca (Toby Donaldson) Date: Mon Oct 18 18:34:38 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Using Jython to merge Python and Java for CS1 In-Reply-To: <20041018100033.2E1EB1E4014@bag.python.org> References: <20041018100033.2E1EB1E4014@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <4173F09A.4000605@sfu.ca> Hi, I haven't tried the Jython + Java approach that you suggest, but the problem I see is that Jython syntax doesn't look anything like Java syntax, so I can't see what afvatnage this would have to beginning programmers. If later courses assume profficiency in Java, then you should teach Java. Perhaps the course you mention that comes before yours should be the one that teaches Python? Or perhaps you can argue that students should be introduced to at least 2 languages in the CS1 - CS3 stream, and Python should be one of those languages because of its ease-of-use, self-documenting nature, and support for advanced programming features like higher-order functions and generators. Toby From rsenra at acm.org Tue Oct 19 02:54:37 2004 From: rsenra at acm.org (Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra) Date: Tue Oct 19 03:54:37 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Using Jython to merge Python and Java for CS1 In-Reply-To: <200410181151.i9IBpchh006033@outbound3.mail.tds.net> References: <200410181151.i9IBpchh006033@outbound3.mail.tds.net> Message-ID: <20041018225437.7b4e3582@Goku> [ Kent Johnson ] ----------------------------------------------- | A better approach might be to start with CPython, +1 | then show the students how to do the same thing in Java. Or perhaps show CPython integration with plain C. regards, Senra -- ,_ | ) Rodrigo Senra |(______ ----------------------------------------------- _( (|__|] GPr Sistemas http://www.gpr.com.br _ | (|___|] IC - Unicamp http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 ___ (|__|] L___(|_|] ----------------------------------------------- From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Oct 19 13:57:38 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Oct 19 13:58:05 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Using Jython to merge Python and Java for CS1 In-Reply-To: <200410180446.i9I4kBOl021033@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <0I5T0085KYKRYO@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Laura writes - > > I think that starting with Jython and moving to Java is an approach that > Georgia Tech > has used, but their media in computation course is enough different that > it is hard > to find out for sure. At any rate they appear to have a Java version of > their > course which uses Rice University's Dr. Java. > > http://www.cc.gatech.edu/news/cat.html is a place to start, but some > things > I think you are going to have to ask them. FWIW, there is apparently a book being published as an outgrowth of the Georgia Tech curriculum: "Introduction to Media Computation: A Multimedia Cookbook in Python" http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/mediaComp-plan/uploads/1/guzdialcover.jpg While my sensibilities were somewhat offended by the write-up about the course - I don't think that CS for Liberal Arts majors needs to be burdened with the issue of "relevancy" for one's career any more than say, Art History would - I was delighted by a look at some of the work of the students, for example at: http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/cs1315/1813 I don't see the "relevancy" of the output, but do sense that folks are learning and having fun doing it. Art From reuben.grinberg at yale.edu Tue Oct 19 18:17:24 2004 From: reuben.grinberg at yale.edu (Reuben Grinberg) Date: Tue Oct 19 18:17:19 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] project funding? Message-ID: <5CABEF52-21EA-11D9-AE93-000A957167A4@yale.edu> Hello, I was just reading about CP4E and was very impressed - too bad it didn't get funded fully. I've got a lot of ideas that coincide with the CP4E proposal, although on a slightly smaller scale. Essentially the system I have in mind is a combination of the wiki paradigm and technology with the HyperCard (which I first programmed in many years ago) / PythonCard paradigm. This would alleviate the problem of installing an IDE on every computer because it would be web based. The program would also automatically do source control and would allow students to share programs. In addition, I remember the Hypercard idea made it really easy for kids to start off doing simple things but eventually move on to more complex projects. I'm most concerned with making my ideas free, easily-accessible, and useful to schools. However, I also have to consider supporting myself and others who may work on the project. I'm thinking about trying to start a non-profit based on the idea, but I wonder if there are other options such as joining a current group or company. I'm a senior at Yale majoring in Computer Science and I'm currently applying to PhD programs in CS, but I am seriously considering taking a detour for several years for this idea. Guido van Rossum suggested I take a look at the bounties at the Shuttleworth foundation (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/bounty.html), but at first glance none of them seemed to fit my idea. I'd really appreciate any guidance or advice you could lend on the subject! Thanks, Reuben Grinberg Yale University, Trumbull College '05 From francois.schnell at free.fr Tue Oct 19 21:50:06 2004 From: francois.schnell at free.fr (francois schnell) Date: Tue Oct 19 21:48:58 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: <41756FEE.1000004@free.fr> Hello everybody, I just read the CP4E manifesto/project which I entirely and "enthousiasticly" agree with. I really hope it will reborn. When I read it, it made me thought partly of some similar goals in the work of Alan Kay and al (www.squeakland.org / www.squeak.org / and now the croquet project) and others like Seymour Papert before. A this point of the mail I must supply the list moderator (and the members of the list) to not kick me off since I'm not speaking of the good Guru in the good list ... I then confess that I have nothing to do with the squeak Community and that my squeak mastering is probably as good as chineese (E-Toys is mostly my limit with Squeak). In an educational context (and even in a not educational context) Python is the langauge I find the most usefull, creative and interesting and my colleagues already know my opnion to well. I may then proceed (safely ?) to the next paragraph ... I recently discovered the new "croquet project": http://www.opencroquet.org But it's Squeak based :-( But when I read the FAQ :-) /Question: Will the OpenCroquet project be one-programming language centric (i.e. Squeak)? //Answer: We are currently working on providing alternative language compilers including JavaScript and Python. We would also like to provide some level of access to Java. The key elements of successfully working in a Croquet context is that the language be late bound, and have some kind of message based object control. TeaTime is based entirely upon sending messages to objects. / Croquet is in an early alpha stage but it sounds very promising. Will it take off ? I wouldn't bet my Python plush on that. But if it does, would'nt it be great to see a strong Python in that too? Are there Python fellows working on that ? I'm also aware of Visual Python which I find great but I'd like to find much more interest in it. Croquet is also very different with aspects like the massively c"ollaborativ" work. I say all that because you guys are rare... In the open source community I sadly find that the percentage of people intersed in the vital field of education (like me and you) is pretty, pretty, small. I actualy didn't find any "community" able to reach the critical mass to strongly influence any national curiculum in regard to programming with kids. It would maybe improve to find more interoperability in groups interested in this field while keeping their (and mine) beloved programming language. cheers francois schnell france From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Oct 20 02:57:39 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Oct 20 02:57:47 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <41756FEE.1000004@free.fr> Message-ID: <0I5U00CC1YO8LW@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Francois writes - > > I say all that because you guys are rare... > In the open source community I sadly find that the percentage of people > intersed in the vital field of education (like me and you) is pretty, > pretty, small. > I actualy didn't find any "community" able to reach the critical mass > to strongly influence any national curiculum in regard to programming > with kids. I've despaired some time ago as to the possibility of reaching the kind of consensus necessary to reach "critical mass" in this realm. Within the small group that takes an interest in the general area, views are wildly divergent regarding anything that begins to approach specifics. I, for example, have real interest in programming's integration into a general education curriculum and almost no interest in programming and "kids". That is, beyond hoping that kids become generally well prepared for undertaking this kind a study when they are post-kid, by for example, learning a good deal about music and gaining a good grasp of mathematical fundamentals while they are still kids. I happen to garden. And like watermelon. But the growing season here in the Northeast US is short. So this year I nurtured some seed indoors, and transplanted them outside as soon as I thought they could survive the late spring temperatures. But by late July it was impossible to distinguish these plants from those grown from seeds sowed directly in the ground early in July when the ground had warmed. I don't see any harm having been done by my efforts to force the issue, but neither can I say anything was accomplished. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Oct 20 15:09:24 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Oct 20 15:31:18 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <41756FEE.1000004@free.fr> Message-ID: <0I5V00IN4WJUFH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Francois writes - > > I recently discovered the new "croquet project": > http://www.opencroquet.org > > But it's Squeak based :-( Let me ask the question generally. What do see in croquet that is connected to education? What is the importance within an educational setting of collaboration in virtual 3d space? Compared, for example, to collaboration-in-the-flesh, The use of technology in compensation for real handicaps is wonderful. But when we get to the point of looking to technology to compensation for handicaps that may themselves be virtual - technologically induced hypnotic suggestions of handicaps - yucko. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Oct 20 15:32:51 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Oct 20 15:32:56 2004 Subject: FW: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: <0I5V00ETMXMV82@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I had written - >Let me ask the question generally. >What do see in croquet that is connected to education? What is the >importance within an educational setting of collaboration in virtual 3d >space? Compared, for example, to collaboration-in-the-flesh, >The use of technology in compensation for real handicaps is wonderful. >But when we get to the point of looking to technology to compensation for >handicaps that may themselves be virtual - technologically induced >hypnotic suggestions of handicaps - yucko. Another of my consecutive post jags, I'm afraid. But I'm afraid croquet, and it ambitions, touches a nerve. To bring the point down to the everyday - My son, over my objections, made the decision to *not* bring his computer up to college with him this semester. He felt strongly that the temptation to waste time on it was too strong to resist, when it sat in his room. He would find himself, he says, in the evenings using instant messenger to chat with fellows sitting in rooms down the hall. The computers available in the library are sufficient for him when he has something to do where a computer might be of practical use, says he. I would love to think I have had an influence on his efforts to try to keep these things in perspective. But it might be true only in a perverse way - that he is in fact judging me in the time I spend connected, and rebelling a bit. Probably a decent instinct. Art From david at handysoftware.com Wed Oct 20 16:07:04 2004 From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy) Date: Wed Oct 20 16:07:09 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I5V00IN4WJUFH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <41756FEE.1000004@free.fr> <0I5V00IN4WJUFH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041020140704.GB17012@arno2> On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 09:09:24AM -0400, Arthur wrote: > Francois writes - > > > > I recently discovered the new "croquet project": > > http://www.opencroquet.org > > > > But it's Squeak based :-( > ... > What do see in croquet that is connected to education? What is the > importance within an educational setting of collaboration in virtual 3d > space? Compared, for example, to collaboration-in-the-flesh, I went to the Croquet web site, and got the impression that it was another massively-multiplayer online game, but possibly less violent than most. :) Is it educational? Yes, highly educational - for the people designing and building the system itself. Writing computer games is far and away more educational than using (playing) "educational" software. When I was a teenager and dinosaurs roamed the earth (early 80's) I wrote games and simulations, and so did my friends. One of my ambitions with the book I have written is to try to rekindle that "lost art" among today's youth. I have had at least some success in my previews so far, which gives me some hope. David H. From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Oct 20 16:46:45 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Oct 20 16:49:43 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <20041020140704.GB17012@arno2> Message-ID: <0I5W00IKG121FK@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> David Handy > > I went to the Croquet web site, and got the impression that it was another > massively-multiplayer online game, but possibly less violent than most. :) > > Is it educational? Yes, highly educational - for the people designing and > building the system itself. Thanks for chiming in, David . Especially considering that you could also decide to be defensive about my anti-kid and programming rhetoric and decide to take it personally. To clarify here, the OP was talking about critical mass, implying something large scale. That there are individual kids with an inclination to be precocious in regard to exploring this area, and resources available to those kids - is quite nice. Its just that I see no particular large scale implications here. > > Writing computer games is far and away more educational than using > (playing) "educational" software. When I was a teenager and dinosaurs > roamed > the earth (early 80's) I wrote games and simulations, and so did my > friends. > One of my ambitions with the book I have written is to try to rekindle > that > "lost art" among today's youth. I have had at least some success in my > previews so far, which gives me some hope. We agree absolutely. I am fascinated with the possibilities of 3d technology for educational purposes. But only in the respect that I think the "what makes it tick" of 3d is a rich mine of mathematics, technology and - if you like - a for the appreciation of collaborative achievement in science. But all those possibilities involve stepping back from it, and demystifying it - rather than becoming immersed in it. Art From francois.schnell at free.fr Wed Oct 20 21:38:44 2004 From: francois.schnell at free.fr (francois schnell) Date: Wed Oct 20 21:41:22 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I5U00CC1YO8LW@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0I5U00CC1YO8LW@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4176BEC4.8060304@free.fr> Arthur a ?crit : >Francois writes - > > > >>I say all that because you guys are rare... >>In the open source community I sadly find that the percentage of people >>intersed in the vital field of education (like me and you) is pretty, >>pretty, small. >>I actualy didn't find any "community" able to reach the critical mass >>to strongly influence any national curiculum in regard to programming >>with kids. >> >> > >I've despaired some time ago as to the possibility of reaching the kind of >consensus necessary to reach "critical mass" in this realm. Within the >small group that takes an interest in the general area, views are wildly >divergent regarding anything that begins to approach specifics. > > > Hello, That's why I like things which are not too langage, or single community, centered or that can be done in different languages like croquet will maybe offer. "The best language is the one you use" they say, and it's a never ending religion we'll never probably change. >I, for example, have real interest in programming's integration into a >general education curriculum and almost no interest in programming and >"kids". That is, beyond hoping that kids become generally well prepared for >undertaking this kind a study when they are post-kid, by for example, >learning a good deal about music and gaining a good grasp of mathematical >fundamentals while they are still kids. > > I'm not sure I understood everything there but I believe it's too late to interest youngs to science and programming when they are post-kids: Kids always ask "Why this ?" "Why that ?" they are all scintists in their natural state. They loose quickly their interest when they realise that adults often give stupid and non-scientific answers or lie most most of the time (because of their ignorance). It's really a huge waste because for the first time kids are more "intelligent" than adults (at least concerning technology). We'll soon change or digital clock here for the winter time. I'm sure you know who will do that very naturally ? Seymour Papert explains that kids needs tools "to think with" obviously, nowadays kids are born with them. Some video-games for example needs to master a system with hundreeds of variables, and it's because it's hard to do that they like it. It's "hard-fun" and programming can be very hard-fun. They hate just fun "things" since they become so quicky boring. Since they are so ICT-Computer-letterate I think it's a good idea to use it when they are still kids to do sciences ans programming and not wait too long. >I happen to garden. And like watermelon. But the growing season here in >the Northeast US is short. So this year I nurtured some seed indoors, and >transplanted them outside as soon as I thought they could survive the late >spring temperatures. But by late July it was impossible to distinguish these >plants from those grown from seeds sowed directly in the ground early in >July when the ground had warmed. > >I don't see any harm having been done by my efforts to force the issue, but >neither can I say anything was accomplished. > >Art > > > Francois > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20041020/762668ec/attachment.html From francois.schnell at free.fr Wed Oct 20 22:07:40 2004 From: francois.schnell at free.fr (francois schnell) Date: Wed Oct 20 22:10:21 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <20041020140704.GB17012@arno2> References: <41756FEE.1000004@free.fr> <0I5V00IN4WJUFH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20041020140704.GB17012@arno2> Message-ID: <4176C58C.5040808@free.fr> David Handy a ?crit : >On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 09:09:24AM -0400, Arthur wrote: > > >>Francois writes - >> >> >>>I recently discovered the new "croquet project": >>>http://www.opencroquet.org >>> >>>But it's Squeak based :-( >>> >>> >... > > >>What do see in croquet that is connected to education? What is the >>importance within an educational setting of collaboration in virtual 3d >>space? Compared, for example, to collaboration-in-the-flesh, >> >> > >I went to the Croquet web site, and got the impression that it was another >massively-multiplayer online game, but possibly less violent than most. :) > >Is it educational? Yes, highly educational - for the people designing and >building the system itself. > > No, it's a full 3D programming objet with all the paradigm wich goes with it. In fact it's a 3D, multimedia, collaborativ, smalltalk. Smalltalk is used for the UPS tracking systems, controls all the trains in germany and the german AMD processor factory assembly for example. It's not just nice. >Writing computer games is far and away more educational than using >(playing) "educational" software. When I was a teenager and dinosaurs roamed >the earth (early 80's) I wrote games and simulations, and so did my friends. >One of my ambitions with the book I have written is to try to rekindle that >"lost art" among today's youth. > I believe kids in the 80s (muself and you) are very different from kids from today. In our time we had to learn verticaly (teacher -> student). Today's kids are completely rejecting sometime violelently this model. They seem to learn mostly horizontaly through internet and ICT (with all the goods ans the bads things). > I have had at least some success in my >previews so far, which gives me some hope. > > It seems interesting, which book are you talking about (references) ? I did an example of programming (flash recording) in E-Toys for kids there. It give you an idea of the "old" E-Toys in 5 minutes (sorry for my bad english): http://francois.schnell.free.fr/bazar/squeak/Etoys_lab_demo_GB/EToys_lab-demo_GB.htm It is just the visual part for kids but you can access the "professionnal code" with one click and mix both. Thanks Francois >David H. >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > > > -- ---------------------------------------------------- Fran?ois Schnell - Strasbourg - France francois.schnell_At_free.fr http://francois.schnell.free.fr ---------------------------------------------------- La libert? ! c'est sur ce principe que repose la d?mocratie alors pourquoi pas l'informatique ? ---------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20041020/fc194f07/attachment.htm From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Oct 21 01:48:28 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Oct 21 01:48:36 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: <0I5W009YPQ4YVM@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Francois writes - >Hello, >That's why I like things which are not too language, or single community, >centered or that can be done in different languages like croquet will maybe >offer. >"The best language is the one you use" they say, and it's a never ending >religion we'll never probably change. That's true enough, as far as I am concerned. But the different communities do tend to establish a character - and those characters might find themselves to be incompatible. Perhaps irrevocably prejudiced by Mr. Kay's decision to wittingly or unwittingly assist Disney in their effort to become a force in education for dollars, I for one feel little affinity with the Squeak community. And I promise you that I am the furthest thing from a Free Software fundamentalist, an anarchist, an anti-Globalist or an anti-Capitalist. It is in fact because I believe I understand something about hardball business, from the inside, that I found nothing adorable about this particular arrangement. We have to understand the kind of power we are talking about. It is generally acknowledged that Disney has had clear influence on US copyright and trademark law and policy. Many feel, in detriment to policies that would better benefit the common good. Why not educational law and policy? Clear to me the wheels were spinning. Disney would be being unfair to their shareholders if they did not exploit their franchise with kids in all possible directions. But did Mr. Kay believe that they would actually be a positive force in the education of our children. Or was he only making the pact necessary to access the kind of raw power it takes to invent other people's future for them. None of this in the least adorable - even if Squeak is. Is the Squeak community actually surprised that there is someone like myself out there with these sentiments? That, to me, would itself be surprising. Art From david at handysoftware.com Thu Oct 21 06:45:36 2004 From: david at handysoftware.com (David Handy) Date: Thu Oct 21 06:45:47 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <4176C58C.5040808@free.fr> References: <41756FEE.1000004@free.fr> <0I5V00IN4WJUFH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20041020140704.GB17012@arno2> <4176C58C.5040808@free.fr> Message-ID: <20041021044536.GA18129@arno2> On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 10:07:40PM +0200, francois schnell wrote: > David Handy a ?crit : ... > > >Writing computer games is far and away more educational than using > >(playing) "educational" software. When I was a teenager and dinosaurs > >roamed > >the earth (early 80's) I wrote games and simulations, and so did my > >friends. > >One of my ambitions with the book I have written is to try to rekindle that > >"lost art" among today's youth. > > > I believe kids in the 80s (muself and you) are very different from kids > from today. > In our time we had to learn verticaly (teacher -> student). Today's kids > are completely rejecting sometime violelently this model. > They seem to learn mostly horizontaly through internet and ICT (with all > the goods ans the bads things). I didn't learn computer programming in the early 80's from a teacher, nor in school. I learned from books, experimentation, and occasional help and guidance from mentors. I suspect that young people today are less technically literate than before. I don't think youth are any less smart, they just have less time. After watching a few hours of Reality TV, playing "Grand Theft Auto", and hanging out in chat rooms, you're lucky if you can get any of your schoolwork done, let alone read books or work on "extra" projects that result in real learning. I don't think immersive 3D online experiences are going to help this situation. > >I have had at least some success in my > >previews so far, which gives me some hope. > > > > > It seems interesting, which book are you talking about (references) ? I'm referring to a book I have written, but not yet widely published, for teaching beginners computer programming using Python. The book is titled "Computer Programming is Fun!". It is being used by an 8th grade class in Vermont (Hi, Rich!) and also several families in the Raleigh, North Carolina area. The web site is at: http://www.handysoftware.com/cpif/ The success I referred to was that an 11-year-old boy last week emailed me a computer game he wrote after reading the first few chapters of my book. Things like that really make my day bright! > I did an example of programming (flash recording) in E-Toys for kids > there. It give you an idea of the "old" E-Toys in 5 minutes (sorry for > my bad english): > http://francois.schnell.free.fr/bazar/squeak/Etoys_lab_demo_GB/EToys_lab-demo_GB.htm > It is just the visual part for kids but you can access the > "professionnal code" with one click and mix both. > > Thanks > > Francois I tried to view your demo, but the web site was down. David H. From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Oct 21 12:24:56 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Oct 21 12:41:30 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: <0I5X00IKUJLRR4@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Francois writes - >Seymour Papert explains that kids needs tools "to think with" obviously, >nowadays kids are born with them. I took the time to read some of Mr. Papert writings available on the Web. And have followed Alan Kay a bit. And I do see that the connection. What I tend to hear in both cases are bald, audacious assertions. Geniuses and visionaries get to do that kind of thing. Lucky them. I happen not to be big on geniuses and visionaries, is the thing. >Some video-games for example needs to master a system with hundreeds of >variables, and it's because it's hard to do that they like it. It's "hard->fun" and programming can be very hard-fun. They hate just fun "things" >since they become so quicky boring. I recognize the "hard fun" phrase as Alan Kay's. And to be provocative, I will speculate that there may actually be something to this "geek" thing. Because most of the hard fun that I and my friends had in childhood was on the ballfield. Challenging oneself physically while one's physical capacities are in development was endlessly fascinating to many of us. The game was the same, the rules were the same - but there was never stasis, because our capacities today were more and different than were our capacities yesterday. And there were a myriad of emotional and social lessons to be learned along the way. I certainly can imagine a void existing for those who did not have this outlet, for whatever reason. But those of us who did had plenty of hard fun filling our days, and a broom handle and a Spalding ball were the tools we were thinking with. There is something very, very old and basic about this kind of hard fun in childhood. It certainly was in 3d - at least. So I am not sure I see where it has gone obsolete. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Oct 21 14:11:11 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Oct 21 14:11:26 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: <0I5X00DAXOIRQH@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> David writes - >>I went to the Croquet web site, and got the impression that it was another >>massively-multiplayer online game, but possibly less violent than most. :) >>Is it educational? Yes, highly educational - for the people designing and >>building the system itself. To which Francois responds. = >No, it's a full 3D programming objet with all the paradigm wich goes with >it. >In fact it's a 3D, multimedia, collaborativ, smalltalk. >Smalltalk is used for the UPS tracking systems, controls all the trains in >germany and the german AMD processor factory assembly for example. >It's not just nice. But Francois, if we are at all serious about this what are we waiting for. Certainly the constraints inhibiting introducing kids or anyone else to the fundamentals of 3d programming are not at this point technological. We certainly do not need croquet to become massively accepted, and replace the current Web infrastructure to get there. I happened to have gotten started with Python and PyOpenGL, and a text editor. I feel strongly that this kind of learning process depends - or is optimally undertaken - in a minimalist and transparent environment. It is not that the size and complexity of something like croquet is only unnecessary, it is in fact a fundamental obstacle in the way of a learning process where grasping and isolating dependencies is to the heart of matters. I believe this is true on a motivational level as well as on a cognitive level. Learning these kinds of things is much more exciting when one understands that I can rotate this cube with these small tools and this algorithm, and that what I am learning is fully portable, and helping me gain self-sufficiency of some sort. All that is lost in an environment such as croquet. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Thu Oct 21 15:04:13 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu Oct 21 15:04:14 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d and Python In-Reply-To: <0I5W009YPQ4YVM@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041021130413.492351E4002@bag.python.org> Sorry, lagging -- had to go back and read the Croquet thread in the archive because for some reason my spam filter is killing edu-sig posts. Having studied the filters, I still don't see why. I'm not sure what Arthur's objection is to big money backing software projects aimed at the education market. What's the difference between Disney doing it and Microsoft doing it, and are Magic School Bus CDs a bad thing? It's already a huge market, and I think each product should be judged on its merits. And it's rare that we find anything so elaborate as a complete curriculum, except in publishing -- and that's big money too. Disney's imprint is entirely missing from Squeak in any case. Had they really gotten behind it, the interface would be stocked with stock characters: Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse, and the rest of the cast. The emphasis would be on animating them somehow. That'd be the predictable outcome. But Squeak is way too esoteric at the moment. It's a poorly understood product, for the most part. Disney never managed to overcome that. As for Croquet, it looks a lot like ActiveWorlds ( http://www.activeworlds.com/ ) but far far behind in terms of development. Maybe I'm wrong about the genre -- two screen shots (what I found at the Croquest site) does not an informed impression make. I've found ActiveWorlds useful in the past, especially AW EDU. Friends and I spent hours "playing ball" in these worlds, showing up as avatars, constructing, providing tours to visiting delegations. We even did a conference or two, entirely within the context of a virtual 3d world. This was about content, information sharing, but not specifically about programming. Lots of hard fun. I think with early education, there's no getting around the need to work on basics: coordinate systems and the mathematical routines we use with them. This provides a level of fluency which translates into many computer languages. I favor starting with a language that is pretty clear and clean (e.g. Python) and then seeing the same ideas expressed in others. I have no problem with SmallTalk being used for this, but I haven't seen enough SmallTalk material (Squeak or not-Squeak) to give me confidence that just this little piece of it (coordinate geometry and related algorithms) is being developed as kid-centric content -- the way Logo was, for example (3d Logo still has its appeal). I've tried to lay down some tracks through Python World along these lines (http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/cp4e.html) including a lot of 3d stuff (mostly static, but some VPython). The emphasis is on doing the programming, not being the passive consumer of awesomely complicated code written by teams of professionals (or even by one professional). However, if a backer comes along and decides my curriculum needs to be done in cartoon form, with Donald Duck explaining subclasses and polymorphism (I know, that'd be unbearable -- we'd probably have to invent new characters), I'm not going to dismiss that out of hand as a negative, even if it makes me less adorable in Arthur's assessment. As a general rule, I push for more educational programming on all fronts, including cartoons (this PBS math-focused series -- Cyberchase -- ain't so bad). PBS also has a stash of video clips for teachers that I regard as a step in the right direction. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Oct 21 15:49:51 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Oct 21 15:50:26 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d and Python In-Reply-To: <20041021130413.492351E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0I5X00HEBT392P@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Kirby writes - > I'm not sure what Arthur's objection is to big money backing software > projects aimed at the education market. What's the difference between > Disney doing it and Microsoft doing it, and are Magic School Bus CDs a bad > thing? It's already a huge market, and I think each product should be > judged on its merits. And it's rare that we find anything so elaborate as > a > complete curriculum, except in publishing -- and that's big money too. I'm implying more than that. I'm implying big money's interest in the privatization of education = not selling CDs here and there. I was actually sympathetic to the idea of vouchers and the like until I began to get an idea of what it would mean when the Big Boys got into the act. And convinced that the Big Boys would become the act. Fast food. > > Disney's imprint is entirely missing from Squeak in any case. Had they > really gotten behind it, the interface would be stocked with stock > characters: Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse, and the rest of the cast. The > emphasis would be on animating them somehow. That'd be the predictable > outcome. But Squeak is way too esoteric at the moment. It's a poorly > understood product, for the most part. Disney never managed to overcome > that. Something went wrong, thank goodness. You had asked, I think, about the Panda3D presentation at PyCon at one point. I'm not sure if my reply made it here. Panda3D is s Disney creation. The creators acknowledged that they were under some pressure to make Squeak its scripting mechanism. They ended up using Python however, finding there was too much ideological baggage attached to "doing business" with Squeak. Their interest - and I think that they were greatly successful - was to create an Open Source, industrial strength Entertainment Engine. The end. Working with it is indeed educational, I am sure, in the sense David points to, for anyone looking to make the commitment to get their arms around the intricacies of industrial strength entertainment technology. Hard stuff. And if you master it, you a likely to make a living at it. It's a multi-billion industry. There is no educational pretense beyond that. Disney should be commended for understanding the advantages of open sourcing this effort, for understanding the sense of using Python for it, and for understanding that we look to them to take the forefront when it comes to this kind of technology. And mostly, in my opinion, for being unambiguous about what Panda3D is intended to be about. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Thu Oct 21 16:57:21 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu Oct 21 16:57:22 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d and Python In-Reply-To: <0I5X00HEBT392P@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041021145721.49A891E4016@bag.python.org> > I'm implying more than that. I'm implying big money's interest in the > privatization of education = not selling CDs here and there. I was > actually sympathetic to the idea of vouchers and the like until I began > to get an idea of what it would mean when the Big Boys got into the act. > And convinced that the Big Boys would become the act. Fast food. OK, that's a reasonable objection. My model is more like the defense industry. The government still writes specs, provides the front line theater, and the prime contractors compete (sometimes) to fulfill them. In the USA at least, but also globally, you need a commitment to open source and cross-platform, as well as to standards, which unbridled free enterprise would not naturally produce in a million years. > You had asked, I think, about the Panda3D presentation at PyCon at one > point. I'm not sure if my reply made it here. > > Panda3D is s Disney creation. The creators acknowledged that they were > under some pressure to make Squeak its scripting mechanism. They ended up > using Python however, finding there was too much ideological baggage > attached to "doing business" with Squeak. Their interest - and I think > that they were greatly successful - was to create an Open Source, > industrial strength Entertainment Engine. The end. Yes, I've been looking at Panda3D. You seem OK with it, and Disney was behind it. Is it that you think Python comes with less ideological baggage than Squeak, or that the expected end result was different (i.e. Panda3D was not aimed at any kind of curriculum take-over). Given your ability to imagine diabolical, dystopian futures (a talent I don't sneeze at), I'm sure you can think of scenarios involving Python which would illuminate all your warning lights and set off alarm bells. > Disney should be commended for understanding the advantages of open > sourcing this effort, for understanding the sense of using Python for it, > and for understanding that we look to them to take the forefront when it > comes to this kind of technology. And mostly, in my opinion, for being > unambiguous about what Panda3D is intended to be about. > > Art > OK, I have no problem with this. Basically, we both see ways for big money to become involved in tool-making that's not corrupting. Your warning lights are triggered by "fast food": slick packaging, high on GUI fat, low on mental protein. We need criteria analogous to the food pyramid, advice from curriculum dieticians, to help us rate products on this spectrum (on the job at McGraw-Hill, I saw some of these advisory studies -- I believe constructivism, currently in vogue with the NCTM and NSF, got a big boost from studies recommending the open-ended "play & explore" software, versus "electronic page turners"). Kirby From tom.hoffman at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 18:46:05 2004 From: tom.hoffman at gmail.com (Tom Hoffman) Date: Thu Oct 21 18:46:08 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I5X00DAXOIRQH@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0I5X00DAXOIRQH@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <92de6c8804102109465bab4eaf@mail.gmail.com> OK, here's something you could only do with Croquet (when it is done, if it works as advertised): The teacher wants to do a project using robot soccer (for whatever reason). They don't have the time or resources to do this with actual robots, so the students are divided into groups. Each group has a virtual field accessible from portals out of the main virtual classroom. In each room there are robot soccer player objects and a ball. The students (as their avatars) spend class time (and home time) scripting the behaviors of their robots and testing them. They can visit their classmates' virtual rooms and observe different techniques. They may, however, also just walk around the room and look over their classmate's shoulders, too :-). They can, however, also bring their robots with them out into the main virtual classroom for scrimmages and ultimately a final tournament with everyone in attendance (including parents and a professor from the local university). Tom Hoffman http://tuttlesvc.org From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Oct 21 19:08:48 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Thu Oct 21 19:10:10 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] 3d and Python Message-ID: <37a0e337a69f.37a69f37a0e3@optonline.net> Kirby writes - > Given your > ability to > imagine diabolical, dystopian futures... Yeah, well you should hear me when I'm acutally being paranoid. ;) . (a talent I don't sneeze > at), I'm sure > you can think of scenarios involving Python which would illuminate > all your > warning lights and set off alarm bells. I like it best when what Python is and is not speaks for itself. There is, I believe, enough of a meritocracy dynamic alive in this realm. The utilization of Python in Panda3D being a case in point. The folks who know best what to do with a tool like Python will find it and use it appropriately - at least at this point when it has reached critical mass in terms of its reputation. And there is no use or reason to try to sell these kinds of folks. They are making complex assessments, on their own terms. In short, yes I think Python has much less ideological baggage then Squeak. BTW, there was a point where I thought Guido was getting too close to letting himself be identified with specific ideas about education and too close to bringing Python down that road with him. And I don't fully regret some of my ranting on the subject here. Art From francois.schnell at free.fr Thu Oct 21 22:05:48 2004 From: francois.schnell at free.fr (francois schnell) Date: Thu Oct 21 22:08:17 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I5V00IN4WJUFH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0I5V00IN4WJUFH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4178169C.5090001@free.fr> Arthur a ?crit : >Francois writes - > > >>I recently discovered the new "croquet project": >>http://www.opencroquet.org >> >>But it's Squeak based :-( >> >> > >Let me ask the question generally. > >What do see in croquet that is connected to education? > I think there are some interesting ideas in what Alan Kay is trying to archive in term of education: http://www.squeakland.org/school/HTML/essays/essays.html What I'm the most interested in is the goal to "easily" construct and modify simulations, through the "power" of abjects, to better understand scientific phenomenums. What if everybody could easily elaborate simulations to better understand an epidemic for example ? To reach maybe one day this goal I think "objects" could be very useful. A real world example: "Geomags" are littles stick magnets + metallic spheres ( http://www.geomags.com/construction_sets/ ) In Europe it has a great success with kids ... and parents and I think it's partly due to the power of "objects" combination and sharing experiments. There are simple objects: sticks with + and - poles and metallic spheres (objects with properties ans methods to interact with other object or the rest of the world). I bough a bunch of them and innocently provided them to work colleagues and kids. It was very interesting to see them trying to *imagine* more and more complex structures and elaborate theorys to see what will happen. They seemed to take pleasure to confront and share their realizations and I've quickly been forced to take them out of the work place... This very stupid little objects seemed to act as a stimuli to their imagination. Albert Einstein, an other Guru, insisted on: "Imagination is more important that objects" Therefore I'm interested in systems/programming languages/Environnement which can act as an "amplifier of imagination" through simulations. Why I'm so interested in simulations for science teaching ? Well put an object on the floor, take off a shoe for example, push it. It's stops... Dam, The first law of Newton said it should continue straight. Obviously we know we live in a world with frictions. I wanted to say is that even the most simple laws of science are often not intuitive either because they are intricate d with other phenomenums or because we can't grasp them at our space/time scale (humans limitations). I worked 6 years in a Planetarium and people couldn't understand the "the sling effect": you want to go to Venus ? Well you better go in the opposite direction to Jupiter ... Ugh! Because humans live in a uniform gravitationnal field they have no intuition of what motion is in central field is. To overcome this I did a small 2D Flash simulation: people can launch a satellite in the direction they want with the speed they wanted. Then, they can act in real time on small booster to modify the motion in the central field. After 5 minutes of trials ans errors, they usually can put their satellite on geostationary orbit : http://francois.schnell.free.fr/bazar/satellite/champs_de_gravite_211203b.swf It seems it helped them to have an intuitive comprehension of the phenomenum because they lived it. Well, Einstein Guru said "It's very difficult to understand what you never lived" (and that's why he needed the "imagination" tool). I'm now trying to adapt the satellite simulation to vpython which gives me 3D. I love vpython but I can't easily/visualy grab the objects like my "geomags" and enables people to try other combinations (one big planet there , one small one here, etc...) I believe if croquet will be succesfull it will be possible to easily do things like that, confront it with others, share, show, etc... Because I'm "Python in love" (at least for now) I'd like to see it in croquet too. :-) >What is the >importance within an educational setting of collaboration in virtual 3d >space? Compared, for example, to collaboration-in-the-flesh > > A lot of shy kids in schools reveals them selfs the most active and leaders in virtual environnremrent or through ICT tools (forums, etc...). I think that's interesting it gives them a chance too. An other weak point I saw with project based learning is that at the scale of a classroom 2 or 3 projects won't appeal to all your students. If your classroom has million of students it's probably easier to find someone which is interested in the same kind of projects as you. For example if this mailing list was limited to the size of my town Strasbourg (500 000 inhabitants) I would probably be alone. Too bad I need you to confront point of views and learn new things. A lot of you like and understand the interest of open source code (I do). Maybe we should open the windows of our schools. francois -- ---------------------------------------------------- Fran?ois Schnell - Strasbourg - France francois.schnell_At_free.fr http://francois.schnell.free.fr ---------------------------------------------------- La libert? ! c'est sur ce principe que repose la d?mocratie alors pourquoi pas l'informatique ? ---------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20041021/8653e634/attachment.htm From francois.schnell at free.fr Thu Oct 21 22:36:46 2004 From: francois.schnell at free.fr (francois schnell) Date: Thu Oct 21 22:39:15 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I5W00IKG121FK@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0I5W00IKG121FK@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <41781DDE.4010809@free.fr> > To clarify here, the OP was talking about critical >mass, implying something large scale. That there are individual kids with >an inclination to be precocious in regard to exploring this area, and >resources available to those kids - is quite nice. Its just that I see no >particular large scale implications here. > > Like I just tried to explain in an other mail in this thread, I wonder If one of the breaks in education is a problem of scale. What If we pass (with proper ICT/tools/substrate I don't know yet) from a "classroom" of 30 students to 100 millions students: pure Chaos ? I'm not completely sure. Critical mass is one of the essential factor to have an emergent system (very efficient and organized but decentralized) I find the researchs on this field very interesting. I read lately a book on the subjects with some quite good explanations: EMERGENCE / Steven Johnson "The connected lives of Ants, Brains, Cities and Software" The second factor to have an emergent system is the quality/efficiency of communication tools (pheromones for ants). The society of information prvide them now or tomorow. I think we are living an exciting period of time were a lot of things will change in the next decades. How can we take advantage of all that to "spread" intelligent awareness of science and education ? I don't know yet. But what I'm sure is that there is a huge need of communication++ for the young's which is too often underestimated. Who predicated the explosion of SMS for mobiles ? Not me. francois schnell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20041021/0d225cbb/attachment.html From francois.schnell at free.fr Thu Oct 21 23:30:45 2004 From: francois.schnell at free.fr (francois schnell) Date: Thu Oct 21 23:33:13 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I5W009YPQ4YVM@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0I5W009YPQ4YVM@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <41782A85.2070602@free.fr> >Perhaps irrevocably prejudiced by Mr. Kay's decision to wittingly or >unwittingly assist Disney in their effort to become a force in education for >dollars, I for one feel little affinity with the Squeak community. And I >promise you that I am the furthest thing from a Free Software >fundamentalist, an anarchist, an anti-Globalist or an anti-Capitalist. It >is in fact because I believe I understand something about hardball business, >from the inside, that I found nothing adorable about this particular >arrangement. > > From what I know I believe Disney don't have any more part to play in Squeak and Alan Kay works in HP. I'll will try to get more info on this. If you have a look at the croquet licence I would say it's very GPL to me: http://www.opencroquet.org/Croquet_Technologies/license.html Then I'm not very afraid of what you discribe. >We have to understand the kind of power we are talking about. It is >generally acknowledged that Disney has had clear influence on US copyright >and trademark law and policy. Many feel, in detriment to policies that would >better benefit the common good. > > I fully agree with you and I advise everybody to read "The future of ideas" of Laurence Lessig. http://www.lessig.org/blog/ http://creativecommons.org/ But can they succeed to control an emergent system ? It depends of all of us and or capacity to organise : http://www.eff.org/ > >Is the Squeak community actually surprised that there is someone like myself >out there with these sentiments? That, to me, would itself be surprising. > > Like I said I'm not very much in. Like the song "I'm free like a bird" and I like to evolve in my opinions and experinces. I'm following Squeakland, croquet and squeak-fr mailing liste (not squeak-dev anymore) and I know few french Squeak good fellows. I'll ask but I always try to avoid to fire community wars (it's often a lost of time for the projects themselves). Otherwise I respect people/community who/which do (rather than talk of) things and Alan Kay / Squeak/ Croquet belongs to them (even if I desagree on important points to me and I expressed already that on their list). francois >Art > > >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > > > -- ---------------------------------------------------- Fran?ois Schnell - Strasbourg - France francois.schnell_At_free.fr http://francois.schnell.free.fr ---------------------------------------------------- La libert? ! c'est sur ce principe que repose la d?mocratie alors pourquoi pas l'informatique ? ---------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20041021/7b13ae4b/attachment.htm From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Oct 22 02:34:45 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Oct 22 02:35:04 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: <0I5Y000T4MY38E@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Francois writes - >I think there are some interesting ideas in what Alan Kay is trying to >archive in term of education: >http://www.squeakland.org/school/HTML/essays/essays.html I took the time to read "Computers, Networks and Education" in its entirety, and find it absolutely maddening. It is consistent with what I've seen and heard from him before. Starting with rhetorical platitudes about kids and education with which no one could find disagreement - but never delivering anything in the least satisfying to demonstrate some satisfying and explicit connection between those platitudes and his own concrete ideas on the use of computers in education. Perhaps it would be better to base your admiration of Mr. Kay's role in education more on what he can demonstrate he is actually achieving, rather than on what he writes he is trying to achieve. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Oct 22 13:39:35 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Oct 22 13:39:43 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: <0I5Z00KOEHQ4SV@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Francois writes - >I fully agree with you and I advise everybody to read "The future of ideas" >of Laurence Lessig. >http://www.lessig.org/blog/ >http://creativecommons.org/ >But can they succeed to control an emergent system ? It depends of all of >us and or capacity to organise : >http://www.eff.org/ >>Is the Squeak community actually surprised that there is someone like >>myself >>out there with these sentiments? That, to me, would itself be surprising. >Like I said I'm not very much in. Like the song "I'm free like a bird" and >I like to evolve in my opinions and experinces. >I'm following Squeakland, croquet and squeak-fr mailing liste (not squeak->dev anymore) and I know few french Squeak good fellows. I'll ask but I >always try to avoid to fire community wars (it's often a lost of time for >the projects themselves). >Otherwise I respect people/community who/which do (rather than talk of) >things and Alan Kay / Squeak/ Croquet belongs to them (even if I desagree >on important points to me and I expressed already that on their list). I see a contradiction in your statements. On one hand: "It depends on all of us and our capacity to organize." And on the other: a position that we should hold our peace in certain of the most important forums where these emergent ideas are being formulated. And not challenge the operating assumptions within those forums. One distracts. I think you would garner some support for this position here. My position - as I demonstrate - is quite otherwise on this point. I've obviously concluded that concerned citizenship within these kinds of communities - from people who are involved and producing and contributing in concrete ways - demands otherwise. It's possible that I do not enjoy violating the implicitly demanded etiquette of this particular forum as much as some might suspect. But open discussion and open source go nicely together, I think. Art From francois.schnell at free.fr Fri Oct 22 20:18:37 2004 From: francois.schnell at free.fr (francois schnell) Date: Fri Oct 22 20:20:55 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I5Y000T4MY38E@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0I5Y000T4MY38E@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <41794EFD.80302@free.fr> >Starting with rhetorical platitudes about kids and education with which no >one could find disagreement - but never delivering anything in the least >satisfying to demonstrate some satisfying and explicit connection between >those platitudes and his own concrete ideas on the use of computers in >education. > > Do you use a graphical interface ? (with icons, windows, menus...). According to computer history Alan Kay had a big role in that and it was designed as an educational program for kids. If you think it's not concrete enough for you, please could you stop to use it and avoid any educationnal project with Tkinter or WxPython for example (by the way please avoid to use Ethernet, Laser Printer, Objects Programming concepts since it seems there are some bits of Mr Kay there too). Did you try E-Toys or scratch with kids ? I did and I can tell you it's far from perfect but it seems quite concrete to me and I reserve my judgment when I will see how it evolves. >Perhaps it would be better to base your admiration of Mr. Kay's role in >education more on what he can demonstrate he is actually achieving, rather >than on what he writes he is trying to achieve. > > > > Did you try Croquet ? I'll make a confidence to you, I haven't had time to try it and that's why I won't judge it. I don't know yet if it's interesting but for the reasons I explained before I see a strong potential there. Will this potential transform into kinetic energy ? I prefer to say that I don't know than to criticize. I began this thread because I wanted to know if someone knew about the Python "possible" side of it (since it's the language I use the most). I didn't receive any answer to that but your emotional reaction to Kay surprised me. If you put your beliefs aside and google a little you'll see that I'm very far away to "admire" Mr Kay but I confess I'm curious. In France and Europe it's not considered as a bad thing. We believe the understanding of differents cultures and languages is enriching. We believe everything is not black and white or boolean and we would never say "if you're not with us" then you belong to "the axis of evil". Contrary to your previous comment, the "hard-fun" concept comes from Seymoure Papert (not Alan Kay). Should we add him in the axis of evil too ? Concerning the potential role of computer in education I probably have a very different experience than you and it probably doesn't help for our mutual understanding. Google told me you began programming at 48. I begun at 10 when I was in huge scholar difficulties (thank's ZX81). The potential influence of computers in education seems quite concrete to me even if I wouldn't dare to generalize my case (kids learn often in different ways). I think it's time to finish this thread here since I fail to understand some of your arguments. We both loose our time and spam this list. I live you the last word, please feel free to critic and spread as much "hatred" as you wish, enjoy. Thank's anyway for the time you spend to answer this thread. I wish you all the best for your educationnal projects. francois >Art > > >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20041022/0fa106c1/attachment.htm From jmax at sfu.ca Fri Oct 22 00:11:09 2004 From: jmax at sfu.ca (J Max) Date: Fri Oct 22 21:58:32 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: <1CAFC36C-23AE-11D9-8F5D-000A95CC9AB4@sfu.ca> Just watching this discussion of Croquet and Squeak and Alan Kay, and thought I'd throw in some perspective -- I'm working on a historical study of the whole thing. Squeak was developed at Apple in 1996, where Alan Kay had been doing nearly invisible educational research projects (primarily the Vivarium project) for more than a decade. Apple was in very bad shape in 1996, and Kay managed to talk higher-ups at Apple to release it with an open-source-ish license before leaving Apple (a lot of people left Apple at this time). Kay and his team (and Squeak) were courted by Bran Ferren at Disney Imagineering, and they were there until 2001, when Eisner layed off a few thousand people; most of Imagineering left at that point, including Ferren. After Disney, Kay and team had had enough of corporate homes, so they set up the Viewpoints Reseach Institute, a non-profit org that is officially behind Squeak. Kay and a few key people are on the payroll of HP currently, but Squeak (and Croquet, by extension) is Viewpoints' property. The Squeak community has been working hard in the past couple of years to clean up the copyright encumbrances of Squeak and its license, but this has more to do with leftovers from Apple than anything from Disney. I think the Disney connection is getting a bit overplayed here... Squeak is the latest instance in the convoluted history of Smalltalk's dual nature: as educational environment and as a 'professional' prgramming environment -- a tension that's been there since the early 1970s. Kay has always been unambiguously on the side of the educational vision. If anyone's interested in the historical pieces, I've collected a lot of them at: http://thinkubator.ccsp.sfu.ca/Dynabook/ - John Maxwell jmax@sfu.ca From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Oct 22 22:12:37 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Fri Oct 22 22:12:38 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: <83072844db.844db83072@optonline.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: francois schnell Date: Friday, October 22, 2004 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? > > > > Do you use a graphical interface ? (with icons, windows, menus...). > According to computer history Alan Kay had a big role in that and > it was > designed as an educational program for kids. I'm guessing there are others that had big roles in that about whom we never hear. But that is probably a more significant point for me than for you. >Contrary to your previous comment, the "hard-fun" concept > comes from > Seymoure Papert (not Alan Kay). I feel better. I've used it myself, on python-list as a matter of fact. Because I do like it better than referrring to Python as "easy". Should we add him in the axis of > evil too ? Not at all. Let's say that there is no connection between Papert and Kay. Would Kay accept that? > > Concerning the potential role of computer in education I probably > have a > very different experience than you and it probably doesn't help > for our > mutual understanding. > Google told me you began programming at 48. I begun at 10 when I > was in > huge scholar difficulties (thank's ZX81). The potential influence > of > computers in education seems quite concrete to me even if I > wouldn't > dare to generalize my case (kids learn often in different ways). I would have to claim that it is quite concrete to myself as well. It is and has been a wonderful, mind-opening experience. Myself, like you, would like to help others down that road. And you should do it in your way, and I'll try to do it in mine. But why do we need emergent masses of 3d collaberation? I am not an ant. And if that illusion is wrong, than I fall back on the illusion that I am an ant of a colony of one, and the queen of that colony. Yes, I find grandiosity on Kay's scale chilling in the extreme. Luckily one doesn't run into grandiosity on that scale very often. Art > I think it's time to finish this thread here since I fail to > understand > some of your arguments. We both loose our time and spam this list. > I live you the last word, please feel free to critic and spread > as > much "hatred" as you wish, enjoy. > > Thank's anyway for the time you spend to answer this thread. > I wish you all the best for your educationnal projects. > > francois > > > >Art > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Edu-sig mailing list > >Edu-sig@python.org > >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > > > > > > > > > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Oct 23 02:27:11 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Oct 23 02:27:38 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <1CAFC36C-23AE-11D9-8F5D-000A95CC9AB4@sfu.ca> Message-ID: <0I6000FH1H9XUG@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> John writes - > I think the Disney connection is getting a bit overplayed here... Well if it is, there is only one person responsible. But I suspect that Alan Kay may himself not consider it to have been one of his better decisions. If I can't use it to place him on the side of the devil, can I at least use it to question the quality, or consistency, of his judgment. > Squeak is the latest instance in the convoluted history of Smalltalk's > dual nature: as educational environment and as a 'professional' > prgramming environment -- a tension that's been there since the early > 1970s. Kay has always been unambiguously on the side of the educational > vision. I don't believe that we should expect our educational visionaries to be designing computer interfaces, and vice versa. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Oct 23 09:02:32 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Oct 23 09:02:49 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I6000FH1H9XUG@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041023070248.EE3941E4002@bag.python.org> > If I can't use it to place him on the side of the devil, can I at least > use it to question the quality, or consistency, of his judgment. > I think you should be allowed to do this -- but I'm not in any rush to judgment to agree with you. For all I know, Disney is to be commended for trying to jump start something where few companies dare. They bit of more than they could chew with Squeak. I expect the marketing possibilities of linking something called Squeak to a company with a mouse for a logo was not lost on them. Disney's own visions were grandiose, but look how little of it remains today. EPCOT, his Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow, has been demoted to Epcot, a word with no meaning, by the lawyers at headquarters. OK, so that's damning. But on the other hand, who said lawyers were supposed to be creative software engineers or artists? Not their job. So... maybe Alan Kay tried to rescue some of the grandness of the Walt Disney vision from the ashes. And failed. But a hero for trying. Why not spin it that way instead? Kirby From lac at strakt.com Sat Oct 23 09:38:38 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Sat Oct 23 09:38:44 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: Message from Arthur of "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:27:11 EDT." <0I6000FH1H9XUG@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0I6000FH1H9XUG@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <200410230738.i9N7ccNB004100@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:27:11 EDT, Arthur writes: >I don't believe that we should expect our educational visionaries to be >designing computer interfaces, and vice versa. > >Art Why not? It seems clear that most people who create computer interfaces, as a profession, are merely copying what other have done before, and most of what others have done before has been horrid. When you see a terrific interface, you startle, and think 'oh how wonderful'. Where do you expect us to get visionary computer interfaces? I think that educators would be a most likely choice -- anybody who has the notion 'how do people learn to do this' is already head and shoulders above the rest of the world who never gives it a moments thought, or concludes 'because it is like what they have seen before' is the last word in computer interface design. Puzzled, Laura From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Oct 23 11:23:55 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Oct 23 11:24:02 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <200410230738.i9N7ccNB004100@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <0I61004C763ZXH@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Laura writes - > > Why not? It seems clear that most people who create computer interfaces, > as a profession, are merely copying what other have done before, and most > of what others have done before has been horrid. When you see a terrific > interface, you startle, and think 'oh how wonderful'. Where do you > expect us to get visionary computer interfaces? I think that educators > would be a most likely choice -- anybody who has the notion 'how do people > learn to do this' is already head and shoulders above the rest of the > world > who never gives it a moments thought, or concludes 'because it is like > what they have seen before' is the last word in computer interface design. My short answer is that the educator is focused on content, not interface. IMO. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Oct 23 11:58:13 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Oct 23 12:00:00 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I6000KUGZKMIV@mta23.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0I6100AFY7P6CP@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Kirby writes - > So... maybe Alan Kay tried to rescue some of the grandness of the Walt > Disney vision from the ashes. And failed. But a hero for trying. Why > not > spin it that way instead? Is he a hero again for then undertaking the Croguet effort, which seeks to be the new internet, and failing. Gutenburg only printed the Bible - didn't take credit for it. But there has been a Gutenberg already, so that is not enough for Kay. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Oct 23 12:08:07 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Oct 23 12:08:14 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I61004C763ZXH@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0I61002S585NZ4@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I wrote - > > Laura writes - > > > > > Why not? It seems clear that most people who create computer > interfaces, > > as a profession, are merely copying what other have done before, and > most > > of what others have done before has been horrid. When you see a > terrific > > interface, you startle, and think 'oh how wonderful'. Where do you > > expect us to get visionary computer interfaces? I think that educators > > would be a most likely choice -- anybody who has the notion 'how do > people > > learn to do this' is already head and shoulders above the rest of the > > world > > who never gives it a moments thought, or concludes 'because it is like > > what they have seen before' is the last word in computer interface > design. > > My short answer is that the educator is focused on content, not interface. > > IMO. The clearly best "interface" for education is infectious enthusiasm. Kay does exude that, to people fascinated by computer interface. And to that extent he is an effective teacher. But Big Picture, that is a small realm. Though if Kay had things more in perspective, his infectious enthusiasm would evaporate - and he would be a less effective teacher. We are all stuck in these kind of contradictions. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Oct 23 12:48:44 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Oct 23 13:03:50 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I61002S585NZ4@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0I61004N9A1BH0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I wrote - > > The clearly best "interface" for education is infectious enthusiasm. > > Kay does exude that, to people fascinated by computer interface. And to > that extent he is an effective teacher. > > But Big Picture, that is a small realm. Though if Kay had things more in > perspective, his infectious enthusiasm would evaporate - and he would be a > less effective teacher. But deepest feelings here is that the focus on kids is perverse. The focus being there because they are only potential market for whiz-bang interface, for people intent on producing whiz-bang interface. Adults have interface in perspective. Kids don't. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Oct 23 13:19:16 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Oct 23 13:19:22 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I61004N9A1BH0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0I61004C2BG8F8@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > > I wrote - > > > > > The clearly best "interface" for education is infectious enthusiasm. > > > > Kay does exude that, to people fascinated by computer interface. And to > > that extent he is an effective teacher. > > > > But Big Picture, that is a small realm. Though if Kay had things more > in > > perspective, his infectious enthusiasm would evaporate - and he would be > a > > less effective teacher. > > But deepest feelings here is that the focus on kids is perverse. The > focus > being there because they are only potential market for whiz-bang > interface, > for people intent on producing whiz-bang interface. > > Adults have interface in perspective. Kids don't. > > Art > I'm sorry. But I've been running around this issue for 4 or 5 years here now. Because I consider it extremely important. And it would be much less important to me to try to express myself if I didn't feel that I was fighting an issue with the deck stacked against me. We all like to try to be heroes, I guess. And if someone could suggest to me a more appropriate place to attempt to engage concerned people on this subject, I will seriously try to take them up on it. But I just want to add, that Kay would probably respond to my last point with something McLuhanesque. He refers to McLuhan repeatedly in the article of his that I just read of his. We agree, apparently, that there is substance to the message that the "medium is the message". And apparently disagree about the substance of the message being sent to kids by subcontracting any significant portion of their education to machines of immense complexity, the working of which they cannot in the least comprehend. The better interface, in some sense, the worse - from this particular perspective. Art From lac at strakt.com Sat Oct 23 14:59:17 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Sat Oct 23 15:18:19 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: Message from Arthur of "Sat, 23 Oct 2004 06:48:44 EDT." <0I61004N9A1BH0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0I61004N9A1BH0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <200410231259.i9NCxHG1004646@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Sat, 23 Oct 2004 06:48:44 EDT, Arthur writes: > > > >I wrote - > >> >> The clearly best "interface" for education is infectious enthusiasm. >> >> Kay does exude that, to people fascinated by computer interface. And t >o >> that extent he is an effective teacher. >> >> But Big Picture, that is a small realm. Though if Kay had things more >in >> perspective, his infectious enthusiasm would evaporate - and he would b >e a >> less effective teacher. > >But deepest feelings here is that the focus on kids is perverse. The foc >us >being there because they are only potential market for whiz-bang interfac >e, >for people intent on producing whiz-bang interface. > >Adults have interface in perspective. Kids don't. > >Art I do not see much evidence for adults having interface in perspective either. Laura From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Oct 23 16:11:09 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Oct 23 16:11:17 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <200410231259.i9NCxHG1004646@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <0I6100A1WJEQHB@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Laura writes - > I do not see much evidence for adults having interface in perspective > either. Relatively? The first thing I do on a new Windows machine is set everything I can get my hands on back to Classic Windows, as quickly as I can. For no good reason other than it is what I already know, and every minute I might spend getting comfortable with a new interface is a wasted minute. And if they keep that toggle alive until Windows2020 I will probably still be availing myself of it. OTOH, I've learned a decent amount about database - probably more than I would otherwise have had patience for - because of being able to access tools that built my SQL statements graphically. Link tables on these fields by linking graphical rendering of these tables, by mouse click, on these fields - kind of thing. Beautiful. But I could never have lived with it unless I was also able to read and edit the SQL statement, as text, that resulted. Somebody understood the nature of the work I was trying to perform, and built some beautiful tools to help me accomplish it. The work of learning is a whole separate realm of things. I am more with Fancois than he thinks. I have a lot more questions than answers and conclusions. But I view with great suspicion anyone who has too many of the answers at this stage of the game. Especially when my instincts inform they may be in the neighborhood of 180 degrees off the mark. Art From rick at tamos.net Sat Oct 23 16:55:06 2004 From: rick at tamos.net (Rick Hanson) Date: Sat Oct 23 16:55:11 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I6100A1WJEQHB@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0I6100A1WJEQHB@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Art wrote: > The first thing I do on a new Windows machine is set everything I can > get my hands on back to Classic Windows, as quickly as I can. For no > good reason other than it is what I already know, and every minute I > might spend getting comfortable with a new interface is a wasted minute. > And if they keep that toggle alive until Windows2020 I will probably > still be availing myself of it. > Hey Art, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit here. If you are like others I know, they revert back to Classic Windows solely because it is the better interface for them. They have no use for "pretty" cruft which only hides information they used to get. Filenames and large icons displayed for each file is not a compact information design. Classic windows with the details view (size, date, time, etc.) is usually what you need to see most of the time; not anything less. If the new interface were truly better, you might see enough advantage to take a little time to learn it -- that would only payoff every time you used it in the future to an indefinite period. But alas, the new interfaces do not seem to be better at conveying information than Classic Windows, but worse; and they just "look better". Cheers, --Rick From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Oct 23 17:43:46 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Oct 23 17:43:50 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I6100A1WJEQHB@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041023154348.814901E4002@bag.python.org> The word "interface" hasn't been well-defined. It easily blends with API. A Python class might be defined through the "interface" of its properties and methods. To assume something graphical ignores the fact of a "command line interface" (CLI). Per my half-articulated curriculum (http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/pdfs/), the keyword "interface" is very important. It's often a boundary between your thinking and someone else's. Having your interface be user-friendly and readable, is often a very important goal (even if this interface is buried deep within some larger system). Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Oct 23 17:46:33 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Oct 23 17:46:36 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I6100AFY7P6CP@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041023154635.4DF0B1E4002@bag.python.org> > Is he a hero again for then undertaking the Croguet effort, which seeks to > be the new internet, and failing. > I dunno, maybe. A lot of these things will become clear 50 years from now, looking back. I feel no real urgency to define who are the good guys and bad guys in this drama. Kay does a lot of interesting work. If he has a big ego about it (and I don't know if he does), that's more his problem than mine. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Oct 23 23:46:49 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Oct 23 23:46:57 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0I6200BCO4I7RT@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Rick - > > Hey Art, > > I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit here. Thanks for thinking so. I like to throw false modesty into the mix from time to time. Just to offer relief from consecutive posts of audacious arrogance. > If you are like > others I know, they revert back to Classic Windows solely because it is > the better interface for them. They have no use for "pretty" cruft which > only hides information they used to get. Filenames and large icons > displayed for each file is not a compact information design. Classic > windows with the details view (size, date, time, etc.) is usually what you > need to see most of the time; not anything less. Certainly true that if I suspected the possibility that I was actually losing information by killing the silly icons from appearing all over the place, I not kill the silly icons. And when they take away the toggle, and clicking on the silly icons is the only way to get at the content, I will succumb to clicking on the silly icons and some interface designer will have the world clicking on his silly icons and congratulating himself about the design brilliance. What turned me onto to computers was the content of the early Web. Getting at it meant navigating by way of the Unix shell. I most certainly had a learning curve. Which I undertook contently to get at the gold. The gold's the thing, IMO. Art From missive at hotmail.com Sun Oct 24 00:10:44 2004 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Sun Oct 24 00:11:20 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: I am probably in a small minority here, but I still find a good book to be the most "immersive" interface. Are we going to replace coloring books with computers where kids can just click on the blank areas and instantly fill (always perfectly of course) between the lines? Will spell checkers become grammar checkers become thesis checkers become automatic paper writers? "Just click File->Templates->Papers and select your thesis statement from the supplied list..." Don't get me wrong. I like working with computers and find a computer to be the most amazing tool I have ever used. That said, I think most kids would be better off just reading a lot of plain old books and writing their own stories out starting with nothing but blank paper. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/ From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Oct 24 00:25:45 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Oct 24 00:25:52 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] "Croquet Project" and Python ? Message-ID: <0I620072W6B3LI@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >Kids always ask "Why this ?" "Why that ?" they are all scintists in their >natural state. >They loose quickly their interest when they realise that adults often give >stupid and non-scientific answers or lie most most of the time (because of >their ignorance). >It's really a huge waste because for the first time kids are more >"intelligent" than adults (at least concerning technology). The kinds of legitimate scientific questions that are fundamental to kids are things like: "Where did I come from". "Where did grandpa go when he died?" And yes they hopefully learn the right answer early - that adults do not have scientific answers for basic scientific questions. With that, they are welcomed to the boat. And we can song and dance around it, all we want. Hopefully, with our children in hand. I loved the idea of the magnetic toys you point out. I loved magnetism as a child. And then as an adult tried (a little) to get its scientific explanation. Maybe I'll find a more satisfactory scientific explanation for it than I have thus far, on the other side. Unfortunately I also loved the consistency of mercury. And would constantly be breaking thermometers to get at it. We now know I probably shouldn't have been. But maybe it explains something. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Oct 24 15:42:58 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Oct 24 15:43:00 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Mercurial math, with Python In-Reply-To: <0I620072W6B3LI@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041024134259.439401E4002@bag.python.org> > Unfortunately I also loved the consistency of mercury. And would > constantly be breaking thermometers to get at it. We now know I > probably shouldn't have been. But maybe it explains something. > > Art Yeah, mercury is sooo cool. A damn shame it's also toxic as all get out. Re Python in the math curriculum (I'm all for it in CS too, but push it in math, against the choke hold of calculators): new sample segment at http://www.mathforum.com/epigone/math-teach/praldprexcrai Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Oct 24 15:56:13 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Oct 24 15:56:23 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? In-Reply-To: <0I6100E01NTMC7@mta21.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0I63008FUDDXAZ@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 11:47 AM > To: 'Arthur'; 'J Max'; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] RE: "Croquet Project" and Python ? > > > Is he a hero again for then undertaking the Croguet effort, which seeks > to > > be the new internet, and failing. > > > > I dunno, maybe. A lot of these things will become clear 50 years from > now, > looking back. > > I feel no real urgency to define who are the good guys and bad guys in > this > drama. I don't tend toward an activist stance on many issues, really. Mostly because I don't reach conclusions very easily - trying to have due respect for complexity. And additionally because I think folks have the right to pursue (within reasonable bounds) their self-interest, undisturbed by a lot of moralizing. And were Kay pursuing HPs dominance in convergent media, and pulling down seven figures a year for it - swell for him and HP. But in the realm in which we are dealing - education - things are a bit different. It is a profession, not a business. And though it has not developed a formal code of conduct - as for example the legal profession, there is, as far as I am concerned, an implicit code of conduct. I feel Kay has breached that implicit code. The end. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Oct 24 16:12:14 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Oct 24 16:12:16 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <0I63008FUDDXAZ@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041024141214.C93B31E4002@bag.python.org> > I feel Kay has breached that implicit code. > > The end. > > Art I haven't followed your thinking long enough or closely enough to understand how you came to this conclusion. So I can't offer any judgment re what I think of your train of reasoning. I look at Squeak (have it on my computer, play with it sometimes), and I have no problem with it. It seems to have a lot of promise, to be a rich environment within which enterprising educators could develop good curriculum. Squeak is one of those systems that needs to be projected on a big screen, with a very knowledgeable instructor, laser point in hand, able to walk us through a lot of material in a few hours. I feel the need for a very comprehensive, high bandwidth briefing, before I dive in myself. Trying to suck the info through the narrow straw of web docs and little tutorials just doesn't give me enough overview or depth within the time that I'm able to give to such study. And I'm quite aware that many feel the same about Python. Slick projected introductory presentations that go well beyond PowerPoint would be good to have. An intensive immersion experience. Christians call it "baptism," thinking of water -- but it may be "by fire" as well (e.g. via projectors with lots of lumens). Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Oct 24 18:53:46 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Oct 24 18:53:49 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: <20041024141214.C93B31E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20041024165347.6128C1E4002@bag.python.org> OK, it's that time of year again, when we dive into a new Python. Here's transcript of my first baby steps, edited to remove some butt bumps and head knocks. Kirby ================ Python 2.4b1 (#57, Oct 15 2004, 15:23:38) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] on win32 Type "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information. **************************************************************** Personal firewall software may warn about the connection IDLE makes to its subprocess using this computer's internal loopback interface. This connection is not visible on any external interface and no data is sent to or received from the Internet. **************************************************************** IDLE 1.1a3 >>> g = (i for i in range(10)) >>> g >>> g.next() 0 >>> g.next() 1 >>> g.next() 2 >>> help(decimal) Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in -toplevel- help(decimal) NameError: name 'decimal' is not defined [read docs for awhile ] >>> import decimal >>> d1 = decimal.Decimal(2) >>> d1 Decimal("2") >>> type(d1) >>> d1 + d1 Decimal("4") >>> float(d1) 2.0 >>> d1.prec() Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in -toplevel- d1.prec() AttributeError: 'Decimal' object has no attribute 'prec' [read PEP in more depth] >>> decimal.getcontext() Context(prec=28, rounding=ROUND_HALF_EVEN, Emin=-999999999, Emax=999999999, capitals=1, flags=[], traps=[DivisionByZero, Overflow, InvalidOperation]) >>> c = decimal.getcontext() >>> c.prec 28 Ah so... Kirby From rhseabrook at aacc.edu Sun Oct 24 19:11:38 2004 From: rhseabrook at aacc.edu (Seabrook, Richard) Date: Sun Oct 24 19:14:13 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python Network Programming Message-ID: <74DAD2F23F03F7438D9BE3436C6846F701290E39@AACC-MAIL.aacc.cc.md.us> In John Goerzen's new text "Foundations of Python Network Programming" I had difficulty getting the Chapter 1 client and server examples to use the file socket interface correctly under Linux Fedora Core 1 using Python 2.3. The problem seems to be the "rw" mode since the workaround is to open separate files for read and write. The commented lines below are where I tried the sock.recv() and sock.send() calls to make sure the socket itself was working correctly. Here's the modified code: [dick@grundoon Networks]$ cat server2.py #!/usr/bin/env python # Simple Server - Chapter 1 - server.py import socket host='' # Bind to all interfaces port = 51423 s=socket.socket(socket.AF_INET,socket.SOCK_STREAM) s.setsockopt(socket.SOL_SOCKET,socket.SO_REUSEADDR,1) s.bind((host,port)) s.listen(1) print "Server is running on port %d; press Ctrl-C to terminate." % port while 1: clientsock, clientaddr = s.accept() clientrfile = clientsock.makefile('r') clientwfile = clientsock.makefile('w') clientwfile.write("Welcome, " + str(clientaddr) + "\n") # clientsock.send("Welcome, " + str(clientaddr) + "\n") clientwfile.write("Please enter a string: ") # clientsock.send("Please enter a string: ") line = clientrfile.readline().strip() # line = clientsock.recv(2048).strip() clientwfile.write("You entered %d characters.\n" % len(line)) # clientsock.send("You entered %d characters.\n" % len(line)) clientrfile.close() clientwfile.close() clientsock.close() ======================================================================= Dick S. From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Oct 24 19:36:04 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Oct 24 19:51:10 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <20041024141214.C93B31E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0I6300C7INK9SC@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Kirby Urner > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 10:12 AM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences > > > I feel Kay has breached that implicit code. > > > > The end. > > > > Art > > I haven't followed your thinking long enough or closely enough to > understand > how you came to this conclusion. So I can't offer any judgment re what I > think of your train of reasoning. The short, medium of long answer? The short answer is that pressure to overlook the obvious here the most distinct of the telltale signs that something is amiss. The medium answer is that when Kay addresses an auditorium full of educators convened by Disney while on the payroll of Disney, and addresses the room about the future of the education of our children he is doing either on behalf of Disney or on behalf of our children. Whichever one he is doing, he is being unfair to the other. And if he is asking us to believe there is no potential conflict, he is being outrageous and insulting in the extreme. Back to the short answer. I will try to keep the long answer short. Professional codes of conduct are never about actual conflict of interest. They are always about avoiding the *appearance* of conflict of interest. They are in place to protect the professional an well as the integrity of the profession. They are the heart of those codes, together with the fact that there is no contemplation of exceptions. No IQ test to pass. No vows of poverty to sign in blood. Well Kay is no longer at Disney. Let bygones be bygones. Well the fact that Croquet would immediately obsolete 87.2% (you can quote me on this) of the hardware sitting in our classrooms today should it be widely adopted would be easy to dismiss as the oversight of an impractical dreamer, if the impractical dreamer were not employed my a hardware manufacturer. Please. I don't seriously think that that is what is on Kay's mind, or part of his agenda. But it is totally unacceptable, on a professional level, nonetheless. Back to the short answer. Art From gvanrossum at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 20:09:51 2004 From: gvanrossum at gmail.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Sun Oct 24 20:09:54 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: <20041024165347.6128C1E4002@bag.python.org> References: <20041024141214.C93B31E4002@bag.python.org> <20041024165347.6128C1E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: > >>> help(decimal) > > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "", line 1, in -toplevel- > help(decimal) > NameError: name 'decimal' is not defined help('decimal') would have worked, though. -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Oct 24 20:45:18 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Oct 24 20:45:21 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <0I6300C7INK9SC@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041024184519.2A26E1E4002@bag.python.org> > But it is totally unacceptable, on a professional level, nonetheless. > > Back to the short answer. > > Art > I think what you're talking about is pretending to an objective voice about something, while concealing your vested interest from the audience. An example would be hyping a stock, supposedly on its merits, whereas really you're just trying to sucker some folks into buying it, so you can cash in (being a holder of this stock yourself). Sort of the Enron scenario, with the principals urging their employees to dive in, even while they were in the midst of bailing out. Another example from my files: when Bucky Fuller and Werner Erhard crossed paths, late 70s early 80s, Fuller started saying positive things about Erhard. Then some newspaper story mentioned Fuller receiving some financial support from Erhard's est Foundation, and Fuller went ballistic. Fuller wrote to Erhard saying he'd better correct these false newspaper accounts immediately (Fuller had never applied for, nor received any grant from Erhard's operation), otherwise all the nice things he'd been saying about Erhard would suddenly appear to have no integrity -- like, of course Bucky is being all gushy, he's a paid spokesman for est (which wasn't true -- but even the *appearance* of a conflict, thanks to wrong reporting, could be highly problematic to the both of them). A few years later, CBS's '60 Minutes' trashed Erhard's reputation on national TV. Was there any conflict of interest here? Some scholars say there was: the producer of that segment was in bed with the scientologists, who had a longstanding vendetta against est (as revealed by internal Church of Scientology memos snarfed up by the FBI). When some of those with damning things to say later recanted, '60 Minutes' made no effort to follow-up. The wrong (and if there was one, it was egregious) was never righted, even to this day. Now let's turn to the case of Disney and Kay. If the financial arrangement is clear and public, then I don't see the problem. Disney is behaving like a think tank or even a university, and, through Kay, is going on record saying "we're endorsing this experimental prototype curriculum of tomorrow, based on Squeak, which is a kid-friendly implementation of SmallTalk." That's like MIT saying, through some faculty presenter, "we favor a formal approach to writing programs based on Scheme." No problem. Schools may be defined by the curricula they favor. Jesuits like Loyola's training. Erhard was partial to Zen. Different schools of thought exist, and compete for recruits. Or take a publisher of Python CS books helping to sponsor, and showing up at, an event that promotes Python as a good way to go. What's the problem? That's like O'Reilly sponsoring OSCON, and using the venue to sell books, promote Safari, and drive the open source community -- knowing from experience that a lot of its sales are owing to open source programmers and designers. Not a problem. The financial arrangements are not concealed, and no one begrudges Tim O'Reilly for having an agenda. Why shouldn't he? Bottom line: I see ways for a person like Kay to work for a company, think tank or university, and to present about Squeak or some other technology, without any appearance of impropriety. It just has to be clear what the arrangements are. The transparency must be sufficient to reveal any strings, running from the presenter to off-stage puppet masters. Or, as you say, at least the *appearance* of a conflict shouldn't be there -- so if there is one, and it's discovered to have been willfully concealed, then too bad for the players if their audience now feels deceived. In the case of Kay, I've never personally felt deceived (ditto re Erhard and Bucky -- not so sure about CBS and MIT, and of course Fox News has no integrity whatsoever (those concealed ties have been completely exposed)). Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Oct 24 20:50:47 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Oct 24 20:50:49 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041024185047.EA5B41E4003@bag.python.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Guido van Rossum > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 11:10 AM > To: Kirby Urner > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 > > > >>> help(decimal) > > > > Traceback (most recent call last): > > File "", line 1, in -toplevel- > > help(decimal) > > NameError: name 'decimal' is not defined > > help('decimal') would have worked, though. Doesn't. But note that I don't 'import decimal' until later, then it works. IDLE 1.1a3 >>> help(decimal) Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in -toplevel- help(decimal) NameError: name 'decimal' is not defined Wondering why, in the help string it says: DESCRIPTION This is a Py2.3 implementation of decimal floating point arithmetic based on the General Decimal Arithmetic Specification: Why Py2.3? Just an oversight? Kirby From gvanrossum at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 20:53:11 2004 From: gvanrossum at gmail.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Sun Oct 24 20:53:17 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: <20041024185047.D986A1E4002@bag.python.org> References: <20041024185047.D986A1E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: > > help('decimal') would have worked, though. > > Doesn't. But note that I don't 'import decimal' until later, then it works. Did for me, but I wasn't using IDLE. > IDLE 1.1a3 > >>> help(decimal) > > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "", line 1, in -toplevel- > help(decimal) > NameError: name 'decimal' is not defined > > Wondering why, in the help string it says: > > DESCRIPTION > This is a Py2.3 implementation of decimal floating point > arithmetic based on the General Decimal Arithmetic Specification: > > Why Py2.3? Just an oversight? What else could it be? :-) -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Oct 24 21:02:05 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Oct 24 21:02:07 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041024190205.347FA1E4004@bag.python.org> > > Did for me, but I wasn't using IDLE. > Even in a command window it's not working for me: C:\Documents and Settings\Kirby>d:\python24\python Python 2.4b1 (#57, Oct 15 2004, 15:23:38) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] on win32 Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> help(decimal) Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? NameError: name 'decimal' is not defined >>> Could it be that my Python23 version in d:\python23, and in the Windows PATH, is intercepting some boot process? Anyone else out there using Python 2.4b1 on Windows? > > DESCRIPTION > > This is a Py2.3 implementation of decimal floating point > > arithmetic based on the General Decimal Arithmetic Specification: > > > > Why Py2.3? Just an oversight? > > What else could it be? :-) > Py2.4 or Py2.4b1? Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Oct 24 21:04:44 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Oct 24 21:04:44 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <0I6300JGXRHTIS@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041024190444.1480C1E4002@bag.python.org> > Kirby, Kirby. > > Of course. The point it that there are myriads of ways for Kay to arrange > his affairs to avoid any appearance of impropriety. > > The point is that is chooses not to choose any of them. > > Otherwise there wouldn't be a point. > > Art > Art, Art. One step further along your train of reasoning then. What is it that Kay did to conceal his affiliation with Disney, when he presented about Squeak during the time Disney was his sponsor? Didn't Marvin Minsky (formerly with MIT) have some Disney affiliation too? I seem to recall reading something in WIRED... Kirby From gvanrossum at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 21:07:05 2004 From: gvanrossum at gmail.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Sun Oct 24 21:07:08 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: <20041024190205.341401E4002@bag.python.org> References: <20041024190205.341401E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: > Even in a command window it's not working for me: > > C:\Documents and Settings\Kirby>d:\python24\python > Python 2.4b1 (#57, Oct 15 2004, 15:23:38) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] on > win32 > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. > >>> help(decimal) > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "", line 1, in ? > NameError: name 'decimal' is not defined > >>> Ah, but you have to use quotes around the argument if you haven't imported it yet -- this is a standard help() feature that you seem to be unaware of and apparently missed in my example. -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Oct 24 21:01:02 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Oct 24 21:16:08 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <0I6300FINQRHM8@mta14.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0I6300JGXRHTIS@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Kirby writes - > Bottom line: I see ways for a person like Kay to work for a company, > think > tank or university, and to present about Squeak or some other technology, > without any appearance of impropriety. Kirby, Kirby. Of course. The point it that there are myriads of ways for Kay to arrange his affairs to avoid any appearance of impropriety. The point is that is chooses not to choose any of them. Otherwise there wouldn't be a point. Art From tom.hoffman at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 21:17:15 2004 From: tom.hoffman at gmail.com (Tom Hoffman) Date: Sun Oct 24 21:17:17 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <0I6300C7INK9SC@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20041024141214.C93B31E4002@bag.python.org> <0I6300C7INK9SC@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <92de6c8804102412172320c835@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:36:04 -0400, Arthur wrote: > The medium answer is that when Kay addresses an auditorium full of educators > convened by Disney while on the payroll of Disney, and addresses the room > about the future of the education of our children he is doing either on > behalf of Disney or on behalf of our children. Whichever one he is doing, > he is being unfair to the other. And if he is asking us to believe there is > no potential conflict, he is being outrageous and insulting in the extreme. Not that this is going to change Arthur's mind, but I can add a little context to his concerns about Disney in education. Disney made a very generous grant to a public charter school in Providence that aided the school's staff immensely in establishing an innovative and successful inner city school. All Disney wanted in return was to promote the project and thus gain good PR. This was probably eight years ago, and I imagine Disney was flush with money then. A couple years later I think they had to tighten their belts and virtually eliminated the entire project nationwide. I'm guessing, but I think Squeak's Disney period may have occurred in a similar timeframe. I would speculate that because these investments DIDN'T have strings attached, the limited PR benefit Disney was getting from them caused them to be axed when money became short. Nonetheless, schools that got grants still received hundreds of thousands of dollars that they wouldn't have seen otherwise. People who look for reasons to complain about the sources of money in primary and secondary education obviously don't work in schools, or at least not US schools. There are strings attached to every dollar, and government money these days has more strings than corporate money. In fact, the most successful strategy for funding a school seems to be to tell whatever the grantor whatever they want to hear, take their money, and then do whatever you were going to do in the first place, but I digress. Making blanket judgements about which sources of money are acceptable isn't a smart way to run a school. You have to look at each case and make an individual decision based on the entire context of both the product in question and the needs of your community. Tom Hoffman http://tuttlesvc.org From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Oct 24 22:30:06 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Oct 24 22:30:07 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041024203006.643281E4002@bag.python.org> > Ah, but you have to use quotes around the argument if you haven't > imported it yet -- this is a standard help() feature that you seem to > be unaware of and apparently missed in my example. > Good point -- it's true that I'm not in the habit of asking for help using the string name of a module. My habit is to import x, then go help(x). I think I'll change my ways. Thanks for the lesson. Kirby PS: I have a meeting in a couple hours with the parents and their 8th grader, who wonders if I might be a good adult mentor for his school programming project. He's been dabbling in Perl. I'm going to see if he might be open to switching gears (he can always return to Perl later). From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Oct 24 23:05:11 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Oct 24 23:05:17 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <92de6c8804102412172320c835@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0I630037LX8RIM@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Tom writes - > Making blanket judgements about which sources of money are acceptable > isn't a smart way to run a school. You have to look at each case and > make an individual decision based on the entire context of both the > product in question and the needs of your community. Your response is a total digression from my point. Because my point was related to Kay's circumstances, not what Disney's motives may or may not have been. Or whether schools should take money from Disney or anybody else. Unless you are claiming that Disney had and has no interest in profit making pursuits related to kid's education. And therefore no potential for conflict existed. But of course that's absurd. But I'm probably not going to change your mind either. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Oct 24 23:40:45 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Oct 24 23:40:46 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <0I630037LX8RIM@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041024214045.629141E4002@bag.python.org> > > Because my point was related to Kay's circumstances But as far as I'm concerned, that point has yet to be made. http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2004-October/004035.html I hope you manage to clarify the nature of Mr. Kay's sin. Otherwise I'm pretty much done paying attention to your ongoing vilifications of this that and the other -- I have to at least see the logic in it, even if I don't agree with it. So far, it's all much too cryptic -- sounds like a lot of insider talk, with you being the only insider. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Oct 25 00:16:39 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Oct 25 00:17:03 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <0I630030VYVWXV@mta26.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0I64004B60JVIJ@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Kirby - I have not run a school, as Tom suspects. But have spent 25 years in a self-regulating profession, and immersed with business and business people. I can only refer you again to the short answer of few posts ago. Since I know you already read it, I know it means nothing to you, however. Two possibilities: Points that could be made as self-evident ( might not in fact need to be made explicitly ) in other forums where I am more the fish in water, than out - seem somehow obscure here. Too much mercury. Art > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:41 PM > To: 'Arthur' > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences > > > > > Because my point was related to Kay's circumstances > > But as far as I'm concerned, that point has yet to be made. > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2004-October/004035.html > > I hope you manage to clarify the nature of Mr. Kay's sin. Otherwise I'm > pretty much done paying attention to your ongoing vilifications of this > that > and the other -- I have to at least see the logic in it, even if I don't > agree with it. So far, it's all much too cryptic -- sounds like a lot of > insider talk, with you being the only insider. > > Kirby > From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Oct 25 00:43:06 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Oct 25 01:09:47 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <0I64004B60JVIJ@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20041024230946.2CC4F1E4002@bag.python.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 3:17 PM > To: 'Kirby Urner' > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences > > > Kirby - > > I have not run a school, as Tom suspects. > > But have spent 25 years in a self-regulating profession, and immersed with > business and business people. > > I can only refer you again to the short answer of few posts ago. > I liked the medium and long answers better. More grist for the mill. You spelled out what an apparent conflict of interest is, in general terms. I expounded on that, giving some examples, then said there are ways to be up front with the arrangements, so people know how you're connected, insofar as its their business, which it is, insofar as they have a legitimate interest in not wanting to be deceived against their own best interests. You agreed, and said yes there are ways to be up front about the arrangements, but the whole point was that Kay didn't play by these rules. So I asked in what way he was in violation. From my googling of the record, it appears the relationship with Disney was not kept secret from his audience. Compared to the shadowy world of think tanks and their secret partners, this relationship was out in the open and in bright daylight. So I asked again, what was Kay's offense exactly? You went back to your short answer. I liked the medium and long answers better. > Since I know you already read it, I know it means nothing to you, however. > > Two possibilities: > > Points that could be made as self-evident ( might not in fact need to be > made explicitly ) in other forums where I am more the fish in water, than > out - seem somehow obscure here. > > Too much mercury. > > Art I guess I'll take option B, as you don't bother to URL me to any more explicit answers. I'm just supposed to accept your sage judgments, based on a 25 year black box with your self-interested labeling of the ingredients (which include mercury -- bad sign). You've made some serious allegations, one might even say attempts at character assassination vis-?-vis Kay. But when pressed, you fall back on elliptical remarks and wry wit. With me, it really doesn't fly. I'm channel surfing on to other frequencies. Sorry about the brain damage. I understand it's irreversible. Kirby From lac at strakt.com Mon Oct 25 06:12:00 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Oct 25 06:12:05 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: Message from Guido van Rossum of "Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:07:05 PDT." References: <20041024190205.341401E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <200410250412.i9P4C0KB009321@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:07:05 PDT, Guido van Rossum writes: >> Even in a command window it's not working for me: >> >> C:\Documents and Settings\Kirby>d:\python24\python >> Python 2.4b1 (#57, Oct 15 2004, 15:23:38) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] o >n >> win32 >> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >> >>> help(decimal) >> Traceback (most recent call last): >> File "", line 1, in ? >> NameError: name 'decimal' is not defined >> >>> > >Ah, but you have to use quotes around the argument if you haven't >imported it yet -- this is a standard help() feature that you seem to >be unaware of and apparently missed in my example. > >-- >--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) Interesting, help does not show up in the index of http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html and a glance at the TOC leads me to believe that it is not mentioned there. How are people currently expected to know such things? Laura (who knows it only because Michael Hudson showed it to her one day.) From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Oct 25 18:52:50 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Mon Oct 25 18:53:18 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences Message-ID: <1c8e471c7f44.1c7f441c8e47@optonline.net> > > > > Two possibilities: > > > > Points that could be made as self-evident ( might not in fact > need to be > > made explicitly ) in other forums where I am more the fish in > water, than > > out - seem somehow obscure here. > > > > Too much mercury. > > > > Art > > I guess I'll take option B Gloves off. goody. , as you don't bother to URL me to any more > explicit answers. I'm just supposed to accept your sage > judgments, based on > a 25 year black box with your self-interested labeling of the > ingredients(which include mercury -- bad sign). A URL to a professional code of ethics? I wouldn't do that, even to you ;) > > You've made some serious allegations, one might even say attempts at > character assassination vis-?-vis Kay. But when pressed, you fall > back on > elliptical remarks and wry wit. I've never met Kay and know nothing of his character. I only know the choices he has made. And if he was not asking to be taken very, very, very, very seriously as a voice of vision on matters of education and our children, I'd probably just be getting a kick out of his suped up graphics stuff. I would only be assassinating Kay's character if I accused him of actual conflict. I am not. The point is that this is a serious enough matter, and his claims of insight into these matters encompassing enough, that I should not be in a position where I have to give those kinds of matters a moment's thought. *He* has chosen to put me in a position where, as an adult, I cannot reasonably do otherwise. I quite rightly and reasonably resent that. Overexposure to mercury must have the effect of making one's common sense grotesquely large. Freakish common sense. Something one learns to live with, evenutally. Art From gvanrossum at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 20:37:05 2004 From: gvanrossum at gmail.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon Oct 25 20:37:08 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: <200410250412.i9P4C0KB009321@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <20041024190205.341401E4002@bag.python.org> <200410250412.i9P4C0KB009321@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: > Interesting, help does not show up in the index of > http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html and a glance at the TOC leads me > to believe that it is not mentioned there. How are people currently > expected to know such things? > > Laura (who knows it only because Michael Hudson showed it to her one day.) It is in the Library Reference under built-in functions, but I agree that it ought to be mentioned in the tutorial too. I've added a bug on SF about this. You could have done the same. -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From lac at strakt.com Mon Oct 25 21:46:21 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Oct 25 21:46:27 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: Message from Guido van Rossum of "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:37:05 PDT." References: <20041024190205.341401E4002@bag.python.org> <200410250412.i9P4C0KB009321@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <200410251946.i9PJkLMl012425@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:37:05 PDT, Guido van Rossum writes: >> Interesting, help does not show up in the index of >> http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html and a glance at the TOC leads me >> to believe that it is not mentioned there. How are people currently >> expected to know such things? >> >> Laura (who knows it only because Michael Hudson showed it to her one da >y.) > >It is in the Library Reference under built-in functions, but I agree >that it ought to be mentioned in the tutorial too. I've added a bug on >SF about this. You could have done the same. Ok, next time I will. Thank you. Laura > >-- >--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Oct 26 02:11:37 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Oct 26 02:11:45 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <1c8e471c7f44.1c7f441c8e47@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20041026001143.4016B1E4002@bag.python.org> > Overexposure to mercury must have the effect of making one's common sense > grotesquely large. > > Freakish common sense. Something one learns to live with, evenutally. > > Art I get that you have supreme faith in your own judgments. My experience is you're often off base and slow to self-correct. Chalk it up to a difference in coordinate systems -- Einstein and all that. Anyway, you're entitled to your own opinions. The fact that I'm having trouble making much sense out of them is not really your problem. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Oct 26 03:16:45 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Tue Oct 26 03:16:53 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences Message-ID: <2073cf207277.2072772073cf@optonline.net> > > > Overexposure to mercury must have the effect of making one's > common sense > > grotesquely large. > > > > Freakish common sense. Something one learns to live with, > evenutally.> > > Art > > I get that you have supreme faith in your own judgments. As it happens I don't consider myself to being making a judgment. I am reporting a disturbance to my sensibilities. And explaining it as best I can. One's sensiblities are not something one has faith in, or does not have faith in. One has an experience, an emotion. But yes, I have respect for those emotions when I consider then to be coming from a concerned place. And worthy of reportage. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Oct 26 03:35:15 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Oct 26 03:35:52 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <2073cf207277.2072772073cf@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20041026013515.1A4D11E4004@bag.python.org> > As it happens I don't consider myself to being making a judgment. > You: "Perhaps irrevocably **prejudiced** by Mr. Kay's decision to wittingly or unwittingly assist Disney in their effort to become a force in education for dollars, I for one feel little affinity with the Squeak community." [italics added] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2004-October/003991.html Dictionary: prej.u.dice ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prj-ds) n. 1. 1. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts. 2. A preconceived preference or idea. 2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection. 3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion. 4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prejudiced&r=67 Me: I'd say the definition fits. Definitely adverse judgment is involved, by your own earlier admission. Nice try though. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Oct 26 19:29:08 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Tue Oct 26 19:29:10 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences Message-ID: <2f389a2f5459.2f54592f389a@optonline.net> Kirby - > > As it happens I don't consider myself to being making a judgment. > > > > You: > > "Perhaps irrevocably **prejudiced** by Mr. Kay's decision to > wittingly > or unwittingly assist Disney in their effort to become a force > in > education for dollars, I for one feel little affinity with the > Squeak community." [italics added] > > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2004-October/003991.html > > Dictionary: > > prej.u.dice ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prj-ds) > n. > > 1. > 1. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or > withoutknowledge or examination of the facts. > 2. A preconceived preference or idea. > 2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived > judgments or > convictions. See Synonyms at predilection. > 3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or > religion. > 4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, > unfavorable conviction of another or others. > > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prejudiced&r=67 Caught me in the act of a bit of self-deprecation. True enough, I got to cut that out. The turth is I feel a lack of affinity for the Squeak community because I feel a lack of affinity for the Squeak community. The fact that their Guru's performances, which I have been interested enough in to take the time to observe, have consistently disturbed my sensibilities - is the best explanation I can give. Though I did make the point clearly in the quote above, that I had considered the possiblitiy that he was in his own way, a victim of the circumstances himself. Perhaps, in retrospect, he might not totally disagree. It is also true that using the word "prejudice" might have left the impression that I considered the possibility that in fact I was holding on to this too long, and that my best reason was being swayed by emotion. I take it back. Anybody who doesn't think Kay is a a schmuck, is a schmuck. Happier? Art From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Oct 26 21:51:31 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Oct 26 21:51:33 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Languages via Immersion Experiences In-Reply-To: <2f389a2f5459.2f54592f389a@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20041026195132.3A5B11E4002@bag.python.org> > I take it back. > > Anybody who doesn't think Kay is a a schmuck, is a schmuck. > > Happier? > > Art > Yes. Always feel free to take stuff back. I have good friends in the SmallTalk community, and by extension interested in the evolution of Squeak. As long as I've made it abundantly clear that I'm not on board with your thinking, just because we're both part of the Python community, then I think my need is taken care of. This archived thread may come in handy down the road. Beyond that, I'm somewhat concerned for your sake (I think you sometimes unnecessarily deprive yourself of what might have been rewarding working relationships). But that's another issue. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Oct 29 02:38:44 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Oct 29 02:53:52 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Disney Dream Desk PC Message-ID: <0I6B000ZVLSPSQ@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I innocently came across this thing displayed front and center at CompUSA on Fifth today. http://www.compusa.com/specials/promos/disneydreamdesk/default.asp?credir=1 It is more ludicrous looking in person than in the photos. Probably because the photographer had the good sense to find an angle that underplays the size of the monitor's mouse ears. (Which is a sentence I would have not predicted I would ever be writing). It comes with a caveat: """ Warning: extended use may result in a lifelong love of learning! """ We stand warned. I'm thinking either the wrong 1000, or they forgot a few, in the 1999 layoffs Tom reports. Art From glingl at aon.at Fri Oct 29 23:02:58 2004 From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl) Date: Fri Oct 29 23:02:39 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: <20041024185047.EA5B41E4003@bag.python.org> References: <20041024185047.EA5B41E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <4182B002.2040104@aon.at> Kirby Urner schrieb: > > >... >Wondering why, in the help string it says: > > DESCRIPTION > This is a Py2.3 implementation of decimal floating point > arithmetic based on the General Decimal Arithmetic Specification: > >Why Py2.3? Just an oversight? > > > No. It seems only to use features of python 2.3 (it's completely written in python). You may copy decimal.py to Python23/Lib and it will work with Python23 as well. Gregor >Kirby > > >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > > > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Oct 30 02:25:13 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Oct 30 02:25:24 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Whither PyGeo? Message-ID: <0I6D00IVKFU9LF@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Just thought I'd throw out a Python success/failure story. The failure part: Have not gotten it together to issue a new release of PyGeo for almost 2 years. Not that I haven't been tinkering with it constantly, and working on some other essentials like decent docs, etc. And not that I still don't think it's cool (and gotten significantly cooler). But it ain't there yet. The success part: The main reason I have not had to time to polish off a release of PyGeo is not surprising - I gotta make a buck, and that has to take priority, and that takes time. The surprising part, to me, is how I'm making a buck these days - largely as a developer. Which is a pretty full circle mid-life career change that I seem to have pulled off. I'll never be a developer in the sense that many in the Python community are. But I've pulled off some decent stuff where the problem domain was financial. I seem to able to compensate for modest development skills with strong background in business financial issues, and have as a result developed a word-of-mouth freelance development practice successful enough to keep me away from much time at PyGeo, but with a family fed. And while I do not develop in Python professionally - most of the skills I've developed, I've developed in Python. And any code I'm writing, I'm thinking in Python, and translating as necessary. Thought I owed Python at least that little testimonial. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Oct 30 03:47:59 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Oct 30 03:48:00 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 In-Reply-To: <4182B002.2040104@aon.at> Message-ID: <20041030014759.AE3E91E4003@bag.python.org> Thank you Gregor. I am not used to the idea that the dialect, pegged to a feature set and syntax, gets identified inside of later versions. Now that you point out how and why this makes perfect sense, I'm quite satisfied with that thinking. Thanks again. Kirby > -----Original Message----- > From: Gregor Lingl [mailto:glingl@aon.at] > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:03 PM > To: Kirby Urner > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] OK, time for 2.4 > > > > Kirby Urner schrieb: > > > > > > >... > >Wondering why, in the help string it says: > > > > DESCRIPTION > > This is a Py2.3 implementation of decimal floating point > > arithmetic based on the General Decimal Arithmetic Specification: > > > >Why Py2.3? Just an oversight? > > > > > > > No. It seems only to use features of python 2.3 (it's > completely written in python). You may copy decimal.py to > Python23/Lib and it will work with Python23 as well. > Gregor > > >Kirby > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Edu-sig mailing list > >Edu-sig@python.org > >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > > > > > > > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Oct 31 16:53:36 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Oct 31 21:03:41 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Ubuntu Message-ID: <1099238017.22981.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Couldn't get the Linksys wireless card working on the Dell Latitude Win2k machine that sort of fell off a truck and into my possession. I was meaning to try Ubuntu anyway. http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ Ubuntu is a 1 CD debian based Linux desktop. I think Mark Shuttleworth has something to do with its creation. Anyway its Python friendly. It recognizes my wireless card and finds my home wireless network on install. Beyond that - it ends up putting me onto a gnome desktop that's extremely sparse and extremely pleasing. Just the aesthetic quality of things like the Ubuntu logo, and default desktop background, give one s sense of something special. Which I truly sense Ubuntu to be. Art