From urnerk at qwest.net  Thu Sep  4 22:48:06 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Fri Sep  5 00:48:24 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: book: Head First Java
In-Reply-To: <000901c33aa0$3ea9ce40$6401a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer>
References: <81ddd7eb5b.7eb5b81ddd@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030904213827.02c2cda8@pop.ptld.qwest.net>

At 06:30 PM 6/24/2003 -0400, Jason Cunliffe wrote:

>I say this becuase I've been browsing "Head First Java" in my local Barnes&
>Noble a few times since I first posted here.. The more I look at it, the
>more impressed I think I am ;-) I'll wager it's fast on its way to becoming
>a new 'classic' and a best seller . It's cartoony and witty, but benefits
>greatly from the facts that its own content is the result of the two
>authors' direct experience and collaboration.  Java is scary and verbose,
>but powerful and ubiquitous. "Head First" really tries to tackle ideas
>first, and let the syntax follow. But it gets into some serious work soon
>enough. Reminds me of "Who is Fourier?"


Yes, exactly.  I was just browsing it in Borders this evening,
remembering very well your praise way back in June.  Indeed, the
similarities to 'Who is Fourier?' are striking, and the playfulness
is motivated by a similar rationale, "getting the brain to absorb
a new language" (Java in one case, some higher math in the other).

I'm impressed that O'Reilly would risk this foray into new
territory -- certainly helps that the authors have good credentials
and explain the "whys and wherefores" of their pedagogical methods
up front.

It's not a in the "for dummies" genre, but one might see some of
the same techniques being employed -- a conversational versus a
didactic style, sudden gear shifts, playfulness, graphics.  But
this book has more graphics, and better ones, than the average
"for dummies" -- it's really a higher end product.

Where I'd like to go is even further in this direction, but with
multimedia -- Flash, voice, the rest of it, but with high level
technical content crammed in.

I think think these pedagogy pioneers are really on to something.

Kirby

PS:  browsing in another bookstore, decades ago, I recall coming
across something by Timothy Leary (perhaps collaborative) published
in a tabloid style, with a similar rationale:  tabloids look like
that for a reason (the brain responds to those blaring headlines).
One can harness the techniques for more serious purposes.  Of course
it's a risk to bring up Leary and tabloids when trying to underline
the legitimacy of a genre, but I can't help myself:  giving credit
where I feel credit is due.  Oh, and another one fit here:
'I Seem To Be a Verb' by Buckminster Fuller.



From guido at python.org  Thu Sep  4 22:55:20 2003
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri Sep  5 00:56:19 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: book: Head First Java
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:48:06 PDT."
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030904213827.02c2cda8@pop.ptld.qwest.net> 
References: <81ddd7eb5b.7eb5b81ddd@optonline.net>  
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030904213827.02c2cda8@pop.ptld.qwest.net> 
Message-ID: <200309050455.h854tKp28608@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>

I noticed this book at OSCON, and spoke briefly with Tim O'Reilly
about it.  He was interested in doing a Python version if a good
author (or more likely a good team of authors) would present itself.

Any takers?

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From urnerk at qwest.net  Thu Sep  4 23:20:05 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Fri Sep  5 01:20:15 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: book: Head First Java
In-Reply-To: <200309050455.h854tKp28608@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
References: <Your message of "Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:48:06 PDT."
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030904213827.02c2cda8@pop.ptld.qwest.net>
	<81ddd7eb5b.7eb5b81ddd@optonline.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030904213827.02c2cda8@pop.ptld.qwest.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030904221225.02cf8d40@pop.ptld.qwest.net>

At 09:55 PM 9/4/2003 -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>I noticed this book at OSCON, and spoke briefly with Tim O'Reilly
>about it.  He was interested in doing a Python version if a good
>author (or more likely a good team of authors) would present itself.
>
>Any takers?
>
>--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

I'd like to be involved in something like this.  I like the
whole approach.

I'd also like to see it applied in the intersection between
math and computer programming, the nexus which so interests me.

Here's something I just wrote to math-teach @ The Math Forum
about all this:

=========


Given the realities of the job market, a lot of serious-minded
adults shell out of computer books designed to give them more
skills.  There's a lot of pressure on publishers and authors
alike to find out what makes technical subjects learnable.

A recent contribution to the field is 'Head First Java', which
I encourage math teachers to skim, especially the first sections,
which are self-consciously about pedagogy.

A first impression might be that this is another "for dummies"
style book, and yes, there's some overlap (and why are *those*
books so successful?).

But this is an O'Reilly computer title, and the humor is in my
opinion of higher caliber than the "or dummies" or "for complete
idiot" series.  The important thing is that the authors are making
some claims about what helps people learn, and then following
their own advice, demonstrating what they consider to be an
effective way of imparting technical content.  It's all about
tricking your brain in to *caring* -- or so the authors argue.

The brain is designed to filter out the low stim unimportant
stuff, say the authors.  It's a survival machine and evolved
though eons of flight or fight in jungles and such.  By keeping
the trivia out, it makes sure the important stuff (like lurking
wild animals) stay front and center.  But our problem is we
*need* to learn Java (just as our ancestors *needed* to learn
how to keep out of a tiger's way).  So we have to meet the
brain half way and give it more of the stimulation it expects
when things are important.  More stim.  More of that sticky
stuff that'll help wire it all in.  More graphics, more
associations.  The claim is that these techniques are in fact
research based.

The result reminds me a lot of 'Who is Fourier?', a book designed
to impart the ins and outs of Fourier analysis to lay persons,
using the techniques pioneered by a certain language institute
to teach regular human languages (like French and Korean).  That
the human language teachers and computer language teachers would
come to similar conclusions, regarding what works, is not entirely
surprising.

I encourage math teachers to look at 'Who is Fourier?' as well,
preferably in conjunction with 'Head First Java'.

Kirby




From ajsiegel at optonline.net  Fri Sep  5 12:09:46 2003
From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur)
Date: Fri Sep  5 11:09:53 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: book: Head First Java
Message-ID: <000b01c373bf$bed7b020$0c02a8c0@Arts>

Guido asks -

>Any takers?

Sounds like an exciting possibility.

I would hope that Lee Harr steps up to the plate.  Beyond the
appropriateness of his work with PyGame for such an effort, I find his
approach and writing to have the ring of authenticity.  Children of all
ages, I believe, quickly see through the lack of it. Writing at the level
that a younger person can understand and respond to, while maintaining an
authentic voice, is a difficult thing to achieve.


Art


From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net  Fri Sep  5 21:51:14 2003
From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe)
Date: Fri Sep  5 20:48:20 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: book: Head First Java
References: <81ddd7eb5b.7eb5b81ddd@optonline.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030904213827.02c2cda8@pop.ptld.qwest.net>
	<200309050455.h854tKp28608@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <072e01c37410$fa385380$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer>

I'd love to work on such a book with the right team - at a project design
level, and in particular to help design and develop the schematic, graphic,
illustrative aspects. Both for print, and in Flash as Kirby suggests.

A CDROM could run a could flash one-click executable for multimedia support
but also connect to python installation, IDLE, web/html etc.

Perhaps a couple of valuable dovetail chapters might be a Jython section -
that could open up the broad topic of virtual machines, APIs, embedding,
scripting and glue-ware. Then the pragmatics. Might be a nice way to help
the two books to be sold on the same shelf, and hopefully also in the
O'Reilly racks.

I worked in publishing for 10 years before moving into multimedia and web,
but boo building is close to  my heart.

- Jason

----- Original Message -----
From: "Guido van Rossum" <guido@python.org>
To: "Kirby Urner" <urnerk@qwest.net>
Cc: <edu-sig@python.org>; "Jason Cunliffe" <jason.cunliffe@verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] re: book: Head First Java


> I noticed this book at OSCON, and spoke briefly with Tim O'Reilly
> about it.  He was interested in doing a Python version if a good
> author (or more likely a good team of authors) would present itself.
>
> Any takers?
>
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)




From nagarjun at hbcse.tifr.res.in  Sat Sep  6 11:21:56 2003
From: nagarjun at hbcse.tifr.res.in (Nagarjuna G.)
Date: Sat Sep  6 00:53:08 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: book: Head First Java
In-Reply-To: <072e01c37410$fa385380$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer>
References: <81ddd7eb5b.7eb5b81ddd@optonline.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030904213827.02c2cda8@pop.ptld.qwest.net>
	<200309050455.h854tKp28608@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
	<072e01c37410$fa385380$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer>
Message-ID: <20030906045155.GA5467@hbcse.tifr.res.in>

On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 08:51:14PM -0400, Jason Cunliffe wrote:
> I'd love to work on such a book with the right team - at a project design
> level, and in particular to help design and develop the schematic, graphic,
> illustrative aspects. Both for print, and in Flash as Kirby suggests.
> 
> A CDROM could run a could flash one-click executable for multimedia support
> but also connect to python installation, IDLE, web/html etc.
> 
> Perhaps a couple of valuable dovetail chapters might be a Jython section -
> that could open up the broad topic of virtual machines, APIs, embedding,
> scripting and glue-ware. Then the pragmatics. Might be a nice way to help
> the two books to be sold on the same shelf, and hopefully also in the
> O'Reilly racks.
> 
> I worked in publishing for 10 years before moving into multimedia and web,
> but boo building is close to  my heart.

In this important project it is possible to bring in some purity if we
can get off from a proprietary format like flash.  Shouldnt we explore
the possibility of using SVG or even the excellent Blender library for
education.  In fact the latter option gives you 3D graphics in an open
standard.  See if you can consider this in this project.

best
Nagarjuna



From urnerk at qwest.net  Sat Sep  6 07:48:53 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Sat Sep  6 09:49:36 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: book: Head First Java
In-Reply-To: <20030906045155.GA5467@hbcse.tifr.res.in>
References: <072e01c37410$fa385380$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer>
	<81ddd7eb5b.7eb5b81ddd@optonline.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030904213827.02c2cda8@pop.ptld.qwest.net>
	<200309050455.h854tKp28608@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
	<072e01c37410$fa385380$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030906064451.0250d978@pop.ptld.qwest.net>

At 10:21 AM 9/6/2003 +0530, you wrote:

>In this important project it is possible to bring in some purity if we
>can get off from a proprietary format like flash.  Shouldnt we explore
>the possibility of using SVG or even the excellent Blender library for
>education.  In fact the latter option gives you 3D graphics in an open
>standard.  See if you can consider this in this project.
>
>best
>Nagarjuna

Probably something as ambitious as a CDROM-based learning tool
is somewhat distant, at least as far as O'Reilly is concerned
(Head First Java was already a significant innovation -- more
in that "techno-comic" genre would be good before moving out
of print media altogether, and it may not be a book publisher
that wants to try media beyond print).

But you bring up and interesting point in any case, about Flash
vs. SVG.  I recommend the following article to add grist for
your mill (if you hadn't seen it already):
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/javascript/2002/05/24/swf_not_flash.html

Kirby



From urnerk at qwest.net  Sat Sep  6 08:11:58 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Sat Sep  6 10:13:04 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] More on Factoring
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030904221225.02cf8d40@pop.ptld.qwest.net>
References: <200309050455.h854tKp28608@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
	<Your message of "Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:48:06 PDT."
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030904213827.02c2cda8@pop.ptld.qwest.net>
	<81ddd7eb5b.7eb5b81ddd@optonline.net>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030904213827.02c2cda8@pop.ptld.qwest.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030906064947.0251dab8@pop.ptld.qwest.net>


FYI (fer ya'll's information), I did a simple implementation
of Pollard's rho method for factoring into primes at:
http://www.mathforum.org/epigone/math-teach/blerlplerdghi
(the 2nd post in that thread contains important bug fixes
and enhancements).

This includes a reimplementation of Miller-Rabin without
eye balling my source of Dec 2000 which Tim Peters helped me
speed up tremendously back then.  Except just now I reread
those old posts and decided to bring back another of Tim's
suggestions:  substitute 1L<<n for 2**n (included in the
version below).

Jumping to the end of that thread:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-December/000827.html

For continuity, I'm appending the newer source code here
(the Miller-Rabin part).  I'm pretty sure I'm using the same
motherboard as in 2000 (1.2 Mhz) but now have more RAM (1 gig).
Also, this is Python 2.3 and that was what? 2.0?  These factors
would likely contribute to speed gain.

But I bet it's partly the way it's written that makes it somewhat
faster.  Note I'm not using any prime bases in a pre-test as per
the thesis I was following on a web page long gone.  Most
implementations of Miller-Rabin just pick random integers for
each trial (every time you pass a test, similar to a Fermat
test, you're more likely to be prime) -- which is all I did here,
using the library's random.randint().

from random import randint
import time

def millrab(n, max=30, timer=False):
         """
         Miller-Rabin primality test as per the following source:
         http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Rabin_primality_test
         """
	 # returns probability p is prime: either p = 0 or ~1
         if timer: start = time.clock()
         if not n%2: return 0
         k = 0
         z = n - 1
         # compute m,k such that (2**k)*m = n-1
         while not z % 2:
               k += 1
               z //= 2
         m = z
         ok = 1
         trials = 0
         p = 1
         # try tests with max random integers between 2,n-1
         while trials < max and ok:
                 a = randint(2,n-1)
                 trials += 1
                 test = pow(a,m,n)
                 if (not test == 1) and not (test == n-1):
                         # if 1st test fails, fall through
                         ok = 0
                         for r in range(1,k):
                                 test = pow(a, (1L<<r)*m, n)
                                 if test == (n-1):
                                         ok = 1 # 2nd test ok
                                         break
                 else: ok = 1  # 1st test ok
                 if ok==1:  p *= 0.25

         if timer: print "Elapsed time: %s seconds" % 
(time.clock()-start)
         if ok:    return 1 - p
         else:     return 0

Testing:

  >>> from mathstuff.pollard2 import millrab
  >>> bignum = 57*(1L<<502)+1
  >>> millrab(bignum,20,timer=True)
  Elapsed time: 105.602022883 seconds
  0.99999999999909051

That's down from 508 seconds.

Kirby


From cox317sy at earthlink.com  Sun Sep  7 05:46:18 2003
From: cox317sy at earthlink.com (Misty Wray)
Date: Sat Sep  6 13:54:22 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Your FREE Mortgage Rate Reduction Enclosed xabfekmwbcdkax
Message-ID: <8n3--$0-wit8@jt9.j.zc43dpmz>

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From 86delb at msn.com  Sun Sep  7 10:41:24 2003
From: 86delb at msn.com (Alfred Fischer)
Date: Sat Sep  6 15:46:05 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Compare mortgage options    xpnz
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From ajsiegel at optonline.net  Wed Sep 10 12:46:23 2003
From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur)
Date: Wed Sep 10 11:51:27 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: book: Head First Java
Message-ID: <000c01c377b2$eac726b0$0c02a8c0@Arts>

Kirby writes -

>Probably something as ambitious as a CDROM-based learning tool
>is somewhat distant, at least as far as O'Reilly is concerned

You are probably correct as to O"Reilly.

Nonetheless the conept of a easilier installed CDROM of what I would call a
base distribution of educational tools would, IMO, be a very good thing.

I would envision it to include the generally accepted "infrastructure"
libraries that are useful for educational purposes - Numeric. PyGame,
VPython, wxPython, PyOpenGL  etc.  And not necessarily include more
targetted stuff, for example PyGeo.  Partly to avoid a situation where it
becomes a divisive issue as to why this and not that.

But I think many educational related efforts would benefit from being able
to point to that CD or CD image, and base at least one of their install
options on the assumption that the CD contents are installed.

As it stands, if one is doing something relatively straightforward with say,
wxPython and Numeric and PyOpenGL, it can seem like an awfully long way from
here to there for someone looking to give it a casual whirl.

If we restrain our ambition as to such a CD - keep it, as I say, limited to
generally recognized infrastructure libraries - it might be relatively
straightforward to make it a reality.

The O'Reily book, for exampole, might not include it - but itself might
greatly benefit by being able to go forward with the assumption that it is a
readily available commodity.

Art


From lac at strakt.com  Sat Sep 13 17:18:06 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sat Sep 13 17:18:11 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] If the PyPy Project gave you a implementation of Python
	in Python
Message-ID: <200309132118.h8DLI6u7008214@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

that was also a JIT runtime optimiser, and produced fast code, would
you teach with it?

One of the goals of the PyPy project is to produce something which 
is even better suited than CPython for teaching computer science
with.  We would be very interested in talking to people who would
like such a thing.  

See http://www.codespeak.net/moin/pypy/ for the PyPy project, and our
mailing lists.

I am trying to get the European Union to fund its development.
(I am answering IST-2002-2.3.2.3   Open development platforms for 
software and services) for those of you who know such things.
For the curious, go http://fp6.cordis.lu/fp6/call_details.cfm?CALL_ID=74#
and click on 'Areas and Instruments' and find this one in the popup.

As part of writing the grant proposal, you have to answer the following
question:

---------------
B.7.2 Are there other EC-policy related issues, and are they taken
into account? Demonstrate a readiness to engage with actors beyond the
research to help spread awareness and knowledge and to explore the
wider societal implications of the proposed work; if relevant set out
synergies with education at all levels.

(No recommended length ­ depends on the number of such other
 issues which the project involves).

---------------

which means I could talk about Python in education until the cows come
home, I guess, but I suspect that this would not be wise.  What would
be wise is to mention the existence of this mailing list, and the CP4E
project, to indicate that there are lots of syngeries with education
and Python.  Anything else you think I could say?  (I guess I could
say that I am now demonstrating a readiness to help spred awareness
and knowledge, but that seems a little self-referential to me :-) )

I also think that if any of you who live in Europe and teach students
at all levels sent me a statement of interest, it could only help me
get this funded.  You can say something really weaselly, like 'if this
project is successful I would consider evaluating PyPy for use in
teaching my classes' or something like that.  If any of you feel
like this, could you please drop me a line?

Oh -- yes -- we are developing under the MIT license, and of course
those of you who don't live in Europe are welcome, and we will make
PyPy for you as well.  If you can find any non-European money for
us, we will take that as well :-)  (had to ask).

Thank you all very much for your time,
Laura Creighton
(amazingly silly now after having been writing grant proposal for
over 12 hours straight.)

From hancock at anansispaceworks.com  Sat Sep 13 22:42:40 2003
From: hancock at anansispaceworks.com (Terry Hancock)
Date: Sat Sep 13 22:40:35 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] If the PyPy Project gave you a implementation of Python
	in Python
In-Reply-To: <200309132118.h8DLI6u7008214@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <200309132118.h8DLI6u7008214@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <m19yMoR-0080i7C@mail.augustmail.com>

On Saturday 13 September 2003 04:18 pm, Laura Creighton wrote:
> that was also a JIT runtime optimiser, and produced fast code, would
> you teach with it?

Yes.  If it performed better than the CPython version, but was otherwise
identical, I'd probably favor it for just about every use, including
teaching.

> One of the goals of the PyPy project is to produce something which 
> is even better suited than CPython for teaching computer science
> with.

Since I presume the goal of PyPy is to implement *Python* in Python,
wouldn't the implementation language be rather insignificant to an
end-user such as an educator?  Why would it be "better" than CPython?

I can see why it would be "just as good", and even why it might be
better on general principles (better ability to write low-level code,
better portability, etc), but it's hard to see why it's particularly good
for education for it to have these qualities (they would seem to have
more to do with good production code than good teaching code).

Mind you, Laura, I'm asking to start a conversation, not to
shoot the idea down.  I figure you probably *have* an answer,
I'd just like to hear it. :-)

Of course, I'm an American, so I may not count in the EU's
budget accounting, anyway. ;-)

Cheers,
Terry

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
Anansi Spaceworks  http://www.anansispaceworks.com

From lac at strakt.com  Sun Sep 14 01:15:05 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun Sep 14 01:15:15 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] If the PyPy Project gave you a implementation of Python
	in Python 
In-Reply-To: Message from Terry Hancock <hancock@anansispaceworks.com> 
	of "Sat,
	13 Sep 2003 21:42:40 CDT." <m19yMoR-0080i7C@mail.augustmail.com> 
References: <200309132118.h8DLI6u7008214@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<m19yMoR-0080i7C@mail.augustmail.com> 
Message-ID: <200309140515.h8E5F5q3009883@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

In a message of Sat, 13 Sep 2003 21:42:40 CDT, Terry Hancock writes:
>On Saturday 13 September 2003 04:18 pm, Laura Creighton wrote:
>> that was also a JIT runtime optimiser, and produced fast code, would
>> you teach with it?
>
>Yes.  If it performed better than the CPython version, but was otherwise
>identical, I'd probably favor it for just about every use, including
>teaching.

That's the goal.  wonderful ...

>
>> One of the goals of the PyPy project is to produce something which 
>> is even better suited than CPython for teaching computer science
>> with.
>
>Since I presume the goal of PyPy is to implement *Python* in Python,
>wouldn't the implementation language be rather insignificant to an
>end-user such as an educator?  Why would it be "better" than CPython?

Aha.  Great question.  I see writing Grant Proposals has turned my
brains into jam.  I was thinking about its value in teaching interpreter
construction and operation, and the like -- including how to write a
JIT, but of course, most people would be using it to teach Programming
concepts in Python.

>
>I can see why it would be "just as good", and even why it might be
>better on general principles (better ability to write low-level code,
>better portability, etc), but it's hard to see why it's particularly good
>for education for it to have these qualities (they would seem to have
>more to do with good production code than good teaching code).
>
>Mind you, Laura, I'm asking to start a conversation, not to
>shoot the idea down.  I figure you probably *have* an answer,
>I'd just like to hear it. :-)

<smile>  one soapbox, coming right up.
>
>Of course, I'm an American, so I may not count in the EU's
>budget accounting, anyway. ;-)

oh you do:)   Like this:

blah blah 'European completitiveness'blah blah 'Small and Medium-sized
Enterprises', blah blah 'world domination of Microsoft', blah blah
Open Source, blah blah 'European completitiveness again' blah blah
'unfair trading practices', blah blah 'spawn of Satan' ....

Ooops, not the last one :-)

>
>Cheers,
>Terry
>
>--
>Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
>Anansi Spaceworks  http://www.anansispaceworks.com

Did your move go well?  We are moving Dec 1, but ours is from our
apartment to a larger one in the same complex.  No more hacking in
the kitchen for me!  We won't even have to rent a truck -- not like
you who moved half across the country, as I recall.

How goes the spacecraft business?

Laura

From ajsiegel at optonline.net  Sun Sep 14 11:52:05 2003
From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur)
Date: Sun Sep 14 11:52:13 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re : If the PyPy Project ...
Message-ID: <000601c37ad8$25825950$0c02a8c0@Arts>

Terry -

>Since I presume the goal of PyPy is to implement *Python* in Python,
>wouldn't the implementation language be rather insignificant to an
>end-user such as an educator?  Why would it be "better" than >CPython?

For whatever reason, the complex built_in  and the cmath module, implemented
in Python, are part of the early pypy codebase. As I had been spending some
time in the complex realm with PyGeo - a simple verions of the complex
realm, as these things go - Laura's post gave me the impetus to try to
plugin the pypy implmentations.

Only got stuck on the typing issue.  My code tests for
instance(object,complex).  The pypy complexobject, unadorned, is a class -
and fails the test.  But that leads me into a deeper look at some of the
pypy codebase, trying to understand a little bit of how this kind of issue
are to be dealt with.  Not that I got there, yet - but I did seem to have an
avenue to explore I would not have with CPython - as someone who doesn't C,
and has no intention of trying, seriously, to do so.

As someone living within the limits of having Python as my only real
language, I think that pypy should open things up for me considerably.  It
will make Python, I believe, a more attractive educational language, because
it will make someone with a strong foundation in Python - as the language of
choice - a more self-sufficient programmer.

Presumably - the point is - there will be less cases where the right
approach would be an extension module in C or C++, and a sense of
fundamental compromise sould one not be equipped to go there.  Many
thousands of folks - using VB and the like - already do involed, highly
performing realworld applications and make nice livings doing so, without
being equipped to do C.  I am thinking that pypy would put Python more
squarely in that "space".
v
Is any of this so, or just hope?

Art


From lac at strakt.com  Sun Sep 14 11:58:25 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun Sep 14 11:58:33 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re : If the PyPy Project ... 
In-Reply-To: Message from Arthur <ajsiegel@optonline.net> of "Sun,
	14 Sep 2003 11:52:05 EDT." <000601c37ad8$25825950$0c02a8c0@Arts> 
References: <000601c37ad8$25825950$0c02a8c0@Arts> 
Message-ID: <200309141558.h8EFwQq3012325@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

In a message of Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:52:05 EDT, Arthur writes:
>Terry -
>
>>Since I presume the goal of PyPy is to implement *Python* in Python,
>>wouldn't the implementation language be rather insignificant to an
>>end-user such as an educator?  Why would it be "better" than >CPython?
>
>For whatever reason, the complex built_in  and the cmath module, implemen
>ted
>in Python, are part of the early pypy codebase. As I had been spending so
>me
>time in the complex realm with PyGeo - a simple verions of the complex
>realm, as these things go - Laura's post gave me the impetus to try to
>plugin the pypy implmentations.
>
>Only got stuck on the typing issue.  My code tests for
>instance(object,complex).  The pypy complexobject, unadorned, is a class 
>-
>and fails the test.  But that leads me into a deeper look at some of the
>pypy codebase, trying to understand a little bit of how this kind of issu
>e
>are to be dealt with.  Not that I got there, yet - but I did seem to have
> an
>avenue to explore I would not have with CPython - as someone who doesn't 
>C,
>and has no intention of trying, seriously, to do so.
>
>As someone living within the limits of having Python as my only real
>language, I think that pypy should open things up for me considerably.  I
>t
>will make Python, I believe, a more attractive educational language, beca
>use
>it will make someone with a strong foundation in Python - as the language
> of
>choice - a more self-sufficient programmer.
>
>Presumably - the point is - there will be less cases where the right
>approach would be an extension module in C or C++, and a sense of
>fundamental compromise sould one not be equipped to go there.  Many
>thousands of folks - using VB and the like - already do involed, highly
>performing realworld applications and make nice livings doing so, without
>being equipped to do C.  I am thinking that pypy would put Python more
>squarely in that "space".
>v
>Is any of this so, or just hope?

You got the whole goal correct first time.  We want to do this, (plus
we also want to teach compiler writing  as well).  PyPy will be an
easier language to learn 'inside and out' for people who don't know C.

Is it ok if I quote from your mail, or include it in its entirity in
our funding proposal in an appendex?

Laura

>
>Art
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Edu-sig mailing list
>Edu-sig@python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

From ajsiegel at optonline.net  Sun Sep 14 12:22:12 2003
From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur)
Date: Sun Sep 14 12:22:55 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re : If the PyPy Project ...
Message-ID: <000501c37adc$5a5af4d0$0c02a8c0@Arts>

Laura asks:

>Is it ok if I quote from your mail, or include it in its entirity in
>our funding proposal in an appendex?

Yes,

But only if your correct the typos first ;)

Art


From taylorB at LFABC.ORG  Sun Sep 14 23:44:02 2003
From: taylorB at LFABC.ORG (Mr. Brian Taylor)
Date: Sun Sep 14 23:42:36 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Internet History -- off topic
Message-ID: <EC1CCA53A71C6D4BB19D444ADD9B46E6E77D@guardian.lfabc.org>

Hi all,

This is a bit off topic -- my apologies.

I'm looking for a well-researched essay on the history of the internet
that I can assign as reading for some senior high school students. I've
come across many accounts, but most are either too brief or not
particularly well-researched.

Any suggestions?

Your help is most appreciated.

From urnerk at qwest.net  Mon Sep 15 02:39:11 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Mon Sep 15 02:39:13 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Internet History -- off topic
In-Reply-To: <EC1CCA53A71C6D4BB19D444ADD9B46E6E77D@guardian.lfabc.org>
References: <EC1CCA53A71C6D4BB19D444ADD9B46E6E77D@guardian.lfabc.org>
Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20030914233432.02a0ec98@pop.ptld.qwest.net>

At 08:44 PM 9/14/2003, Mr. Brian Taylor wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>This is a bit off topic -- my apologies.
>
>I'm looking for a well-researched essay on the history of the internet
>that I can assign as reading for some senior high school students. I've
>come across many accounts, but most are either too brief or not
>particularly well-researched.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Your help is most appreciated.

Did you check this one?
http://www.isoc.org/internet/history/brief.shtml

I think it's pretty good.

Kirby




From deanlake at fbeedle.com  Tue Sep 16 16:36:15 2003
From: deanlake at fbeedle.com (Dean Lake)
Date: Tue Sep 16 16:36:18 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] edu-sig page revamped
Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20030916133120.01bb3e90@mail.fbeedle.com>

Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part --------------

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/2003
From delza at blastradius.com  Tue Sep 16 17:50:26 2003
From: delza at blastradius.com (Dethe Elza)
Date: Tue Sep 16 17:50:40 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] edu-sig page revamped
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20030916133120.01bb3e90@mail.fbeedle.com>
Message-ID: <C8510504-E88F-11D7-8B57-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com>

Hi Dean,

Thanks, I will forward that on.  And read it myself.

--Dethe

> Here is a link to John Zelle's page with helpful links to his new CS1 
> Pyhton textbooks due to be published by us soon (Oct/Nov):
> http://mcsp.wartburg.edu/zelle/python/
> Here is the link to the PRELIMINARY EDITION which is available from us 
> now: http://www.fbeedle.com/028-8.html
> There is more than 5 hours worth of material in the book, but I think 
> it would be a helpful start.
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Dean Lake
> Representative
> Franklin, Beedle & Associates Incorporated
>
> www.fbeedle.com or http://www.fbeedle.com/products.html
>
> 8536 SW St Helens Drive, Suite D, Wilsonville, Oregon 97070 USA
> Toll-free (USA) call 1-800-322-2665; otherwise call 1(503)682-7668
> Fax 1(503)682-7638


From pdm at 1worldnet.com  Thu Sep 18 22:08:48 2003
From: pdm at 1worldnet.com (pdm@1worldnet.com)
Date: Fri Sep 19 03:14:56 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Be bigger than average!       - bk hnnpdlursebb  w
Message-ID: <vy$27$-$$71--5c9i-mr3@p0s.uz>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20030919/fa5f11c0/attachment.html
From letondal at pasteur.fr  Mon Sep 22 07:35:12 2003
From: letondal at pasteur.fr (Catherine Letondal)
Date: Mon Sep 22 07:35:18 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] End-User Development Survey
Message-ID: <200309221135.h8MBZClQ402592@electre.pasteur.fr>


Hi,

An european End-User Development network (http://giove.cnuce.cnr.it/eud-net.htm)
has started 1 year ago. Its aim is to develop and promote development and
tailoring of software tools by their users. By "users", they mean not only 
"end-user" - I don't really like this term but it's the common adopted one - but 
also people who, while being professional of a domain (e.g: biologists, architects, ...) 
and thus not being "professional" computer scientists, do participate in the development 
of software tools.

I thought that it might be interesting for this network to get some input from 
the people of this list. The survey questionnaire is online :
	http://www.lri.fr/~letondal/Bib/eud_survey.html

Answers are sent by email to the organizers of the network and are fully 
anonymous (no record of the sending machine is made, nobody has access to the log 
files etc...). The questionnaire tests show that it should take about 10 minutes to fill.

Thanks to all of you,

-- 
Dr Catherine Letondal -- Pasteur Institute Computing Center

From urnerk at qwest.net  Tue Sep 23 16:34:19 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Tue Sep 23 16:34:25 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] The French connection
In-Reply-To: <200309141558.h8EFwQq3012325@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <E1A1trZ-0001Sf-T7@mail.python.org>


Useful links page (worth bookmarking):
http://www.python-eggs.org/links.html

I like S?bastien Sauvage's Python code examples too:
http://sebsauvage.net/python/

Kirby




From shelley.walsh9 at ntlworld.com  Wed Sep 24 07:31:13 2003
From: shelley.walsh9 at ntlworld.com (Shelley Walsh)
Date: Wed Sep 24 07:54:27 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
Message-ID: <BB973F10.2E25%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>

I while back I wrote to Kirby about something that happened to me when I
tried to use Python to help with understanding of mathematical concepts. At
that time I didn't have time to participate in this group when Kirby
suggested it, but he told me he posted what I wrote to the group.

Basically the discovery that I am making over and over is that students that
have trouble with just the kinds of mathematical topics that I would have
thought some experience with Python would help with, are even more terrified
of computers than they are of mathematics.

It isn't just Python, either, for all the talk about use of computers in the
mathematics classroom as dumbing down, my recent experience is that students
find it harder with computers rather than easier. I had statistics students
who even in a distance education class where they were supposed to submit
their assignments on Excel spreadsheets, would go so far as to submit
something that was in tabular form in a textbox carefully using the space
bar to get things to line up correctly. I had several others who would type
without the = sign almost exactly the calculations that Excel would have
done for them in a cell, and then repeat the same keystrokes in their
calculators, and then type the answer displayed in the calculator. Most
recently I have been teaching a "Nature of Mathematics" sort of survey
course where use of spreadsheets is even part of the course, and I have a
student who will do exercises from a section specifically about use of
spreadsheet, and do the exercises perfectly, but refuse to actually put them
in an Excel sheet, saying she can't deal with Excel.

Anybody have a clue about what is going on with such computer phobics or
what to do about it?

I am ideally very attracted to the ideas that Kirby has about integrating
mathematics and programming, but my recent experience is suggesting caution.
I am very much interested in your opinions about this.
-- 
Shelley Walsh
shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com
http://homepage.mac.com/shelleywalsh


From lac at strakt.com  Wed Sep 24 08:35:02 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed Sep 24 08:35:12 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred 
In-Reply-To: Message from Shelley Walsh <shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com> of "Wed,
	24 Sep 2003 12:31:13 BST." <BB973F10.2E25%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com> 
References: <BB973F10.2E25%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com> 
Message-ID: <200309241235.h8OCZ2h9006353@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

In a message of Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:31:13 BST, Shelley Walsh writes:
>I while back I wrote to Kirby about something that happened to me when I
>tried to use Python to help with understanding of mathematical concepts. 
>At
>that time I didn't have time to participate in this group when Kirby
>suggested it, but he told me he posted what I wrote to the group.
>
>Basically the discovery that I am making over and over is that students t
>hat
>have trouble with just the kinds of mathematical topics that I would have
>thought some experience with Python would help with, are even more terrif
>ied
>of computers than they are of mathematics.
>
>It isn't just Python, either, for all the talk about use of computers in 
>the
>mathematics classroom as dumbing down, my recent experience is that stude
>nts
>find it harder with computers rather than easier. I had statistics studen
>ts
>who even in a distance education class where they were supposed to submit
>their assignments on Excel spreadsheets, would go so far as to submit
>something that was in tabular form in a textbox carefully using the space
>bar to get things to line up correctly. I had several others who would ty
>pe
>without the = sign almost exactly the calculations that Excel would have
>done for them in a cell, and then repeat the same keystrokes in their
>calculators, and then type the answer displayed in the calculator. Most
>recently I have been teaching a "Nature of Mathematics" sort of survey
>course where use of spreadsheets is even part of the course, and I have a
>student who will do exercises from a section specifically about use of
>spreadsheet, and do the exercises perfectly, but refuse to actually put t
>hem
>in an Excel sheet, saying she can't deal with Excel.
>
>Anybody have a clue about what is going on with such computer phobics or
>what to do about it?
>
>I am ideally very attracted to the ideas that Kirby has about integrating
>mathematics and programming, but my recent experience is suggesting cauti
>on.
>I am very much interested in your opinions about this.
>-- 
>Shelley Walsh
>shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com
>http://homepage.mac.com/shelleywalsh
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Edu-sig mailing list
>Edu-sig@python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

Some of what you are seeing is the normal reaction to VERY BAD USER
INTERFACES.  I.e. they aren't _afraid_, and its not a _phobia_ -- they
just think that the tools stink and are a tremendous waste of time.

They are (or think they are) more productive without the tools you
suggest, and they resent having to learn something when they have a
much better way to do it on their own.  It's clearly not laziness,
either.  Part of their problem, if they are like the people I have
known, is a basic issue about 'control' and 'flexibility'.  They want
to do the job their own way, under their own control, and the system
they have is so inflexible that they have to learn a completely
different way to get even the tiniest of correct results.  But the
people I am used to dealing with already know how to get correct
results with a calculator or a pen, and they heartily dislike being
re-trained to suit some computer's idea of how the job should be done.
Telling them that after training they would be more productive is not
the issue.  Poor or Inflexible user interfaces make them feel slow,
stupid, and _wasting their lives_ -- so they quit in disgust,
resentment, and anger.  And I don't blame them.  I needed to make a
GANTT chart for a grant proposal yesterday, and after 2 hours with
Microsoft Project, it is back to pen and paper for me as well.  I'll
program PyGame to make pretty boxes. :-)

So, for your immediate need, you want something to do statistics
designed by a somebody with a clue about Human Factors.  Fortunately,
we have such a beast, Salstat, written in Python by Alan Salmoni who
just got his PhD in Cardiff University in Wales, cc'd on this note.
(But his account may be full of viruses again, we're getting pretty
hard hit still.)  http://salstat.sunsite.dk/  I hand it to undergraduates
who used to be told to use SAS or SPSS, and they don't pester me with
questions about how to use it.  I'd try it and see what happens.  If
they hate SalStat, they can send mail to Alan, who is really interested
in such bug reports and _really cares_ about their interactions.

He also knows more about exactly why people have troubles like you 
describe than anybody I have ever spoken with, so I hope his account
works.

best of luck,
Laura Creighton

From lac at strakt.com  Wed Sep 24 10:58:26 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed Sep 24 10:58:54 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred 
In-Reply-To: Message from Shelley Walsh <shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com> of "Wed,
	24 Sep 2003 15:03:53 BST." <BB9762D8.2F5D%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com> 
References: <BB9762D8.2F5D%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com> 
Message-ID: <200309241458.h8OEwQhA007084@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

In a message of Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:03:53 BST, Shelley Walsh writes:
>I'm not looking for a statistical package. I am trying to discover such
>basic things as why it is so much easier to press 2+4= on a calculator than
>=2+4 in a spreadsheet. Or for that matter why typing 2+4 at a >>> prompt is
>so much harder than pressing 2+4= on a calculator. My experience was that
>students were even more violently against Python than they were against
>Excel. The ** drives for powers scares them even more than the ^ does.
>-- 
>Shelley Walsh
>shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com
>http://homepage.mac.com/shelleywalsh

I think the question you need to ask is 'what makes a calculator easy
to use'.  It may simply be that people are trained to use a calculator,
long before you meet them.  (How old are these students, anyway?)
Plenty of things are called 'intuitive' when all they actually are
is 'familiar'.  This makes measuring whether something is actually
'easy to use' vs 'you just know how to do it' a difficult problem for
Human Computer Interaction.  

Perhaps your user community is distinctly different from mine, but the
12 year old children in the computer club don't like '**' for power
because they are unfamiliar with that notation. (Some of them are
unfamiliar with the notion of exponentiation as well.)  Giving them a
page of 'pen and paper' math problems to solve, where they were asked
to use the ** notation made them familiar with it, which fixed that
problem.  The first year, I thought that 8 questions would be
sufficient for familiarity, but that proved not to be the case.  Next
year I used 20, and had no trouble.  It may be that your students need
more hands on training with computers to become more familiar with
loading and using programs in general, or certain programs in
particular.

Laura Creighton

From jhrsn at pitt.edu  Wed Sep 24 11:45:07 2003
From: jhrsn at pitt.edu (Jim Harrison)
Date: Wed Sep 24 11:45:18 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
In-Reply-To: <200309241458.h8OEwQhA007084@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <BB973443.292BF%jhrsn@pitt.edu>

>> I am trying to discover such basic things as why it is so much easier to
>> press 2+4= on a calculator than =2+4 in a spreadsheet. Or for that matter why
>> typing 2+4 at a >>> prompt is so much harder than pressing 2+4= on a
>> calculator.

An additional element that may contribute to this is the perceived risk of
inadvertent error. In a setting like Excel where a large number of options
appear to be available, you not only need to know how to accomplish a task,
you also need to know how you could mess it up in ways that aren't obvious
(such as a proportional font space in the wrong place). From the user's
perspective the large, unknown (and hence essentially unlimited) number of
possible errors means that if you care about accuracy you're going to have
to check the results using a method you trust anyway. So why not save the
time and aggravation, and use the trusted method first?

Jim Harrison
Univ. of Pittsburgh

From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net  Wed Sep 24 12:10:27 2003
From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe)
Date: Wed Sep 24 12:07:52 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
References: <BB973F10.2E25%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <003001c382b6$5f1b76c0$6501a8c0@vaio>

Shelley,

Thank you, this is a very interesting post about an important topic..

Please can you tell us more context and who are your students -- school,
socio-economic background, age, experience etc.

It sounds like they were so poorly educated and ill-prepared.
Must have been terrifyting and humiliating for some of them.

When you asked them to use Excel did you ever check if they know how to use
it?
Give any live demos/example yourself of what you wanted?
Is access to the the software itself an issue? Is is even it installed? etc.

Was this shock in the first lesson and homework?
Had you already covered some ground succesfully?
How much variation is there in the students?
How many own their own or have good access to computers in their homes?
Are they in any other classes whih use computers? If so have you discussed
with those teachers?

How did you deal with this situation?
What do the students themselves say about their efforts to simulte the
expected result?

If you knew then what you know now, how differently would you have approach
this class?

I am very curious about many aspects of the story.

Thank you
- Jason


From guido at python.org  Wed Sep 24 12:10:24 2003
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed Sep 24 12:11:19 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:58:26 +0200."
	<200309241458.h8OEwQhA007084@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> 
References: <BB9762D8.2F5D%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>  
	<200309241458.h8OEwQhA007084@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> 
Message-ID: <200309241610.h8OGAOp17830@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>

> In a message of Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:03:53 BST, Shelley Walsh writes:
> >I'm not looking for a statistical package. I am trying to discover such
> >basic things as why it is so much easier to press 2+4= on a calculator than
> >=2+4 in a spreadsheet. Or for that matter why typing 2+4 at a >>> prompt is
> >so much harder than pressing 2+4= on a calculator. My experience was that
> >students were even more violently against Python than they were against
> >Excel. The ** drives for powers scares them even more than the ^ does.

[Laura]
> I think the question you need to ask is 'what makes a calculator easy
> to use'.  It may simply be that people are trained to use a calculator,
> long before you meet them.  [...]

Probably, but even if you've never used a calculator, *learning* to
use a calculator is a lot easier than learning to use a computer.  The
reason is simple: affordabilities.  A basic calculator (I'm not
talking about those TI models) has a small number of buttons, each
with a single function clearly labeled.  "+" means plus, and so on.
Compare that to a computer: the keyboard has over 100 keys, there's a
mouse, there are buttons on the screen, etc., etc.  Between all that,
** for power seems a minor issue (and easily solved, as Laura showed).

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From hancock at anansispaceworks.com  Wed Sep 24 15:21:28 2003
From: hancock at anansispaceworks.com (Terry Hancock)
Date: Wed Sep 24 15:19:09 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
In-Reply-To: <200309241610.h8OGAOp17830@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
References: <BB9762D8.2F5D%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>
	<200309241458.h8OEwQhA007084@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<200309241610.h8OGAOp17830@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <m1A2FAH-0082XKC@mail.augustmail.com>

On Wednesday 24 September 2003 11:10 am, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > In a message of Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:03:53 BST, Shelley Walsh writes:
> > >I'm not looking for a statistical package. I am trying to discover such
> > >basic things as why it is so much easier to press 2+4= on a calculator than
> > >=2+4 in a spreadsheet. Or for that matter why typing 2+4 at a >>> prompt is
> > >so much harder than pressing 2+4= on a calculator. My experience was that
> > >students were even more violently against Python than they were against
> > >Excel. The ** drives for powers scares them even more than the ^ does.
> 
> [Laura]
> > I think the question you need to ask is 'what makes a calculator easy
> > to use'.  It may simply be that people are trained to use a calculator,
> > long before you meet them.  [...]
> 
> Probably, but even if you've never used a calculator, *learning* to
> use a calculator is a lot easier than learning to use a computer. 

I hate to admit it, but I used to do first-tier telephone tech support. :-)

One of the things I found really interesting was the degree to which
things that I as a frequent computer user take *completely* for
granted would be serious obstacles for new users.  Particularly older
users who were trying to use a computer for the first time.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, find a computer running
an unfamiliar operating system and window environment (e.g. if you're
a Microsoft Windows user, use Mac or Linux+X). Now try to do something
fairly straightforward, like open a word processor and write a paragraph
of text.

WITHOUT USING THE MOUSE.

First time users frequently do NOT find the "Windows - Icon - Mouse - Pointer"
model completely intuitive.  I once spent about a half-hour trying to
explain to a guy over the phone how to *resize a window* so that he could
see something that was "behind" it.  Remember also that there really *isn't*
anything behind the windows on your screen, and the idea of the window
environment as a bunch of layered images is a carefully preserved fiction of
the interface.  And if you don't buy into that fiction, the screen will be
severely confusing.

And this is one of many, many "intuitive" elements of working with GUI
environments that new users may not find intuitive at all.

As for the relevance to topic, what I'm saying is that you are
taking for granted that "typing =2+4 in Excel" and "typing 2+4= in a
calculator" are very similar experiences. They are for you and me, but this
is partly because we have a large body of shared knowledge which we
don't even acknowledge, because it's "intuitive".

There's another factor, too.  And this may be even more relevant to your
case: FEEDBACK.  Conceptually, both spreadsheets and programming
languages record a formula for later use, rather than providing an immediate
response. The time between these two phases can be quite short, but it
is there. And a person who types "2+4=" on a calculator *never actually
sees* the formula "2+4=", but only experiences it by feel.  So seeing it written
out on the screen as they work, instead of immediate feedback, may
seem odd.

I have to admit that I find calculation by hand to
sometimes feel more natural, too.  One of the things about Python that
I really liked was the interactive command line which allows me to have
*nearly* this experience on the computer, while conceiving of a program
or just doing calculations.  When I realized that the functionality of "calc"
was basically a complete subset of the functionality of python -- I realized
I should just stop using calc and use python instead.  After all, if I ever found
I needed more than a few calculations, I can always write a few lines of
python code interactively to do the job.

And before I developed any familiarity with spreadsheets in general, I
would do calculations just like that, and then paste over the results to
a word-processor or other program.  I eventually did learn to use kspread,
but it's not always the easiest way, especially if you're picky about layout,
which I often am.

Cheers,
Terry

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
Anansi Spaceworks  http://www.anansispaceworks.com

From gerrit at nl.linux.org  Wed Sep 24 15:56:22 2003
From: gerrit at nl.linux.org (Gerrit Holl)
Date: Wed Sep 24 15:56:34 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
In-Reply-To: <BB973F10.2E25%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>
References: <BB973F10.2E25%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <20030924195622.GA4876@nl.linux.org>

Shelley Walsh wrote:
> Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred

After reading your e-mail message, I think a better subject would read:
Computer illiteracy.

> Basically the discovery that I am making over and over is that students that
> have trouble with just the kinds of mathematical topics that I would have
> thought some experience with Python would help with, are even more terrified
> of computers than they are of mathematics.

> It isn't just Python, either, for all the talk about use of computers in the
> mathematics classroom as dumbing down, my recent experience is that students
> find it harder with computers rather than easier.

Since 6 weeks, I am a physics student and I have a lot of Calculus. Part of
my Calculus course is an introduction to Maple. I quickly saw that Maple
would really be able to help me a lot, but even for me (being experienced
with Python and computers in general), it is a large barrier to type some
integral from my Calculus textbook into Maple in order to check whether it
gives the same result as I calculated. This is because it is so new: I am
not used to it. At the start, it is hard indeed, because it is not
intuitive. Instead of using Maple to solve the Maple exercises, some of
my co-students used their TI-83 calculater to do so. This illustartes the
same reflex exists at a 'higher' level. I think it is a temporary reflex,
solvable by doing more exercises, and maybe doing a few steps back.

> I had statistics students
> who even in a distance education class where they were supposed to submit
> their assignments on Excel spreadsheets, would go so far as to submit
> something that was in tabular form in a textbox carefully using the space
> bar to get things to line up correctly. I had several others who would type
> without the = sign almost exactly the calculations that Excel would have
> done for them in a cell, and then repeat the same keystrokes in their
> calculators, and then type the answer displayed in the calculator.

I don't think this as anything to do with computer hatred or computer fear.
It is simpler than that: it is computer ignorance.

> I am ideally very attracted to the ideas that Kirby has about integrating
> mathematics and programming, but my recent experience is suggesting caution.
> I am very much interested in your opinions about this.

A problem with using computers and programming in education is that
typically, a lot of differences exist between the students pre-knowledge.
This is especially true in poorer socio-economic areas of society.
For people (for me at least) grown up in the "West", it is almost
unbelievable that an adult person does not know about computers, but
a few years ago the former Dutch prime minister turned out not to know
how to use the computer mouse. If students who do not have a computer at
home, nor have ever used any, are told to go programming, it is a
natural reaction to have fear for this. It is simply 10 steps too far.

yours,
Gerrit Holl.

-- 
142. If a woman quarrel with her husband, and say: "You are not
congenial to me," the reasons for her prejudice must be presented. If she
is guiltless, and there is no fault on her part, but he leaves and
neglects her, then no guilt attaches to this woman, she shall take her
dowry and go back to her father's house.
        -- 1780 BC, Hammurabi, Code of Law
--
Asperger Syndroom - een persoonlijke benadering:
	http://people.nl.linux.org/~gerrit/
Het zijn tijden om je zelf met politiek te bemoeien:
	http://www.sp.nl/

From gerrit at nl.linux.org  Wed Sep 24 15:59:16 2003
From: gerrit at nl.linux.org (Gerrit Holl)
Date: Wed Sep 24 15:59:24 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
In-Reply-To: <200309241235.h8OCZ2h9006353@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <BB973F10.2E25%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>
	<200309241235.h8OCZ2h9006353@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <20030924195916.GB4876@nl.linux.org>

Laura Creighton wrote:
> I needed to make a
> GANTT chart for a grant proposal yesterday, and after 2 hours with
> Microsoft Project, it is back to pen and paper for me as well.  I'll
> program PyGame to make pretty boxes. :-)

Heh, just a side note because you're mentioning Pygame: I wanted
to create a platform game and saw PyPlatform. I thought, great, until
I discovered that PyPlatform, 2000 LOC, does not have any functions
or classes, only one big if-while-for-if-for-while-if block...

Also an example of a bad user interface, it being a programmer interface.

yours,
Gerrit.

-- 
33. If a ... or a ... enter himself as withdrawn from the "Way of the
King," and send a mercenary as substitute, but withdraw him, then the ...
or ... shall be put to death.
        -- 1780 BC, Hammurabi, Code of Law
--
Asperger Syndroom - een persoonlijke benadering:
	http://people.nl.linux.org/~gerrit/
Het zijn tijden om je zelf met politiek te bemoeien:
	http://www.sp.nl/

From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net  Wed Sep 24 16:40:34 2003
From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe)
Date: Wed Sep 24 16:38:04 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
References: <BB973F10.2E25%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>
	<20030924195622.GA4876@nl.linux.org>
Message-ID: <00ad01c382dc$1afcd8a0$6501a8c0@vaio>

> Since 6 weeks, I am a physics student and I have a lot of Calculus. Part
of
> my Calculus course is an introduction to Maple. I quickly saw that Maple
> would really be able to help me a lot, but even for me (being experienced
> with Python and computers in general), it is a large barrier to type some
> integral from my Calculus textbook into Maple in order to check whether it
> gives the same result as I calculated.

.. ah Yes which is why Wolfram developed Mathematica during past 15+ years.
It is a masterpiece, with its own colorful idiosyncrasies, but wow what
brilliant  deep functional connection between presentation, programming,
symbol and syntax for mathematics.
Wolfram's team got so many things beautifully right and did them so well.

But alas it's still  proprietary and expensive for private citizens - so
Mathematica has missed one boat for its chances to become global meme in
computational literacy. I remember when the NeXT Computer first appear
c.1990 Mathematica was bundled free along with the complete works of
Shakespeare. Who knows, perhaps Steven Wolfram will leave it in his will as
free open source gem for all the world. But by then it will likely be too
much, too late, although still useful, powerful and inspiring.

Mathematica does not succeed as a  general programming language, so in that
regard the world is much better off with a open free Python or similar. I
've not used it, but heard that Maple lacks the vision and rigor of
Mathematica, that it's interface is thin or confusing etc.

There is no reason why Python can not emulate the best of Mathematica.
For example, Scintilla already has folding IDE which hints at Mathematica's
lovely notebooks. But the interactive graphics combined with typographic and
robust publishing integration of Mathematica is a huge undertaking.

The parts for doing it in Python are all there, but not yet any cohesive
vision, nor a core design team with necessary funding assigned to help them
succeed.

What  do you imagine a dozen good people for 3-4 years dedicated full time
to this could achieve?
What do you think that would cost anyway?

Wolfram Research had to invent so much of it, about all of it. But now we
have many good examples, frameworks, packages and widespread protocols and
standards. Should not be so steep at all..

- Jason


From urnerk at qwest.net  Wed Sep 24 20:02:40 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Wed Sep 24 20:02:30 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Consistency question
In-Reply-To: <00ad01c382dc$1afcd8a0$6501a8c0@vaio>
Message-ID: <E1A2JaV-0005DL-MU@mail.python.org>



My understanding is that int(5.0) actually triggers __int__ -- a method
inherited by all floats.  

When I go dir(5.0), I see __int__ listed, and I can go:

 >>> 5.0 .__int__()
 5

So far so good.  

But then I can also go int('123') and get back 123.  So why isn't __int__ a
method of string objects?

 >>> '123' .__int__()

gets me an error, and dir('') doesn't show __int__ as being among string's
methods.

Why?

I'd like to clear up this confusion because I'm writing some tutorial
materials.  What I don't understand, I can't rightly explain.

Kirby



From shelley.walsh9 at ntlworld.com  Wed Sep 24 20:13:41 2003
From: shelley.walsh9 at ntlworld.com (Shelley Walsh)
Date: Wed Sep 24 20:14:17 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
In-Reply-To: <003001c382b6$5f1b76c0$6501a8c0@vaio>
Message-ID: <BB97F1C4.2F7C%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>

on 24/9/03 5:10 pm, Jason Cunliffe at jason.cunliffe@verizon.net wrote:

> Shelley,
> 
> Thank you, this is a very interesting post about an important topic..
> 
> Please can you tell us more context and who are your students -- school,
> socio-economic background, age, experience etc.

They are adults, mainly in their twenties, and in the US military stationed
in Europe. The backgrounds are fairly mixed. As to math level, they all knew
some algebra, but not a lot beyond that.
> 
> It sounds like they were so poorly educated and ill-prepared.
> Must have been terrifyting and humiliating for some of them.

It was not as bad as all that. I think their main problem was lack of
patience. 
 
> When you asked them to use Excel did you ever check if they know how to use
> it?
> Give any live demos/example yourself of what you wanted?
> Is access to the the software itself an issue? Is is even it installed? etc.

Basically they got *everything*, they got what plenty pay big bucks for, and
yet many still acted like it was a punishment.

My first experience specifically with Excel hatred was when I decided to
simply make homework count as more of their grade, because it seemed like
such a waste to make people go through the tedium required to do statistics
all by hand. The students in this class were mainly business majors who I
thought worked with Excel all the time, and already knew how to use it
better than I did, because previous classes had seemed to want to be able to
use it. But as it turned out, this class was considerably weaker, so then I
spend a whole lot of extra time giving them demonstrations in the computer
lab and working with them on their homework. I also made up templates on
everything we did so that they really could have got away with murder,
because most of the time they didn't even need to type anything in, just cut
and paste and change the numbers. And most of them did do all right with it
in the end, and appreciated it. But still all the way through it always
seemed like there was a lot of pulling teeth, and there were two in
particular that simply up and refused to have anything to do with it, and
coincidently were both black, and tried even to make a racial issue out of
it. I continually offered them help, but they wouldn't take it.

My next experience was in a distance education class again mainly business
students, like the other class, a class with really far too much and too
advanced material for the level of students where it seemed that giving them
a lot of Excel templates was the only way to make it do-able. As it turned
out these students were actually even less prepared than they were supposed
to be due to inadequate enforcement of pre-requisites for distance education
class, and this was certainly at least part of the problem. And again, it
wasn't a total failure, but the main thing that surprised me was the
timidity that they still had even after the whole 14 weeks of the class,
things like using my templates to check their calculator work, but
presenting the less accurate (due to round-off error) calculator answer when
the answers differed.

Then the next term I got to teach a class that can be used as a
pre-requisite for the statistics class. It is a kind of a substitute for a
an intermediate algebra class, and also one that actually has spreadsheet
use as part of its content. It's also a kind of a kitchen sink class that
has a lot of places where use of a spreadsheet can make the concepts
clearer, and I would have thought more fun. Now this time I was a lot more
aware of the difficulties students have with Excel, so I thought if I
devoted more time to it, it would really help them when they got to
statistics. So I found room to dedicate the whole first week to it, and gave
them a confidence building first assignment, and succeeded with it. And many
people found what I did with Excel in the class very interesting, and they
all succeeded in doing pretty much what I expected of them with it. But
still now as we are nearing the end of the class, I get a couple of students
saying they hate Excel, and not telling me what they hate about it. And I'm
inclined to think, was all the time I spent posting things using it to
explain things from the course a total waste of time for them?

> Was this shock in the first lesson and homework?
> Had you already covered some ground succesfully?
> How much variation is there in the students?

I think I've probably covered these. First assignment shock wouldn't
surprise me. Refusal to write a final exam on a spreadsheet after seeing
solutions to homeworks on the all term is what really surprises me. 13th
homework assignments using my templates, but with shown work calculations
where the simple insertion of = before the written out work would have
computed it, but instead they opted to press all the buttons a second time
on the calculator, that is the kind of thing that surprises me. And then
there were the face to face students who were allowed to use Excel on my
computer to check their work, but none did that made me think, "Was all my
time spent in the computer lab a total waste?"

> How many own their own or have good access to computers in their homes?

They all have computers at home, and also ones at work and in the computer
lab. I think many even work with computers at work, which in some cases is
part of the problem. When they go to class they want to get away from work.
Computers are in many ways becoming a bad word in our society as a whole.
They are nothing but spam, porn, and bad ergonomics.

I think my shock is not so much that all of the students had problems, but
that there are some who react even more violently against computers than
they do against math.

> Are they in any other classes whih use computers?

I don't know.

>If so have you discussed
> with those teachers?

No.

> How did you deal with this situation?

Mainly I spent a massive amount of my own time both in computer labs, and
online, and in some cases it still wasn't enough. But partly I know that at
least with the DE students, for many the problem is that these people simply
don't belong in DE classes, and our DE program is just having teething
problems that hopefully will eventually get worked out.

> What do the students themselves say about their efforts to simulte the
> expected result?

The DE students do what bad DE students do about all their other problems,
which is they tell the instructor they are lost, but refuse to give
specifics. They do the same thing as they do about other material they have
trouble, scream that the book is written in Greek, Chinese, and Swahili the
day before the homework is due after having not participated all week. These
are students that as a whole never pestered me enough, and I am not the only
one to have this experience with DE students. Good students can do well in
DE, but there are also a lot who seem to be practically trying to fail.

Most of the f2f students work with me on it, and really did do some nice
things with their homework. But it was just always more of a struggle than
it seemed it should have been.
> 
> If you knew then what you know now, how differently would you have approach
> this class?

I'm not really sure. I think mainly I am facing that change can't come too
quickly, and also that students need to be more hungry before they can
learn. They need to discover for themselves the need for computers. Let them
complain about pushing the same buttons on the calculator over and over, and
beg to be allowed to use a computer. No, that's just me feeling bitter and
unappreciated. But there is still some truth in it. I don't know the answer.
That's why I wrote about it.

In my present College Algebra class I show them some things on the computer,
but they do everything by hand, and it is going a *lot* better. I even come
up with sequences of calculator keystrokes for things that I would never use
a calculator for, and to me that seems like a waste. Personally I hate hand
held calculators, no record, and they breed errors. I would far rather make
a computation with Excel, Python, or my Pacific Tech software Graphing
Calculator. But they are happier being given keystroke sequences, and my
work is so much less that I finally have time to write something like this.
 
> I am very curious about many aspects of the story.

But maybe computer use needs to be taught from ground up integrated with
math, like teaching laboratory technique in science. But math is not thought
of that way. It is thought of as a kind of intelligence to have, a kind of
virtuosity where using computers is cheating and unnatural. Some people
still see calculators as cheating, but they have now for the most part made
the running shoes level of cheating when computers are still at the steroids
level. 
-- 
Shelley Walsh
shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com
http://homepage.mac.com/shelleywalsh


From guido at python.org  Wed Sep 24 20:18:04 2003
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed Sep 24 20:18:35 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Consistency question
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:02:40 PDT."
	<E1A2JaV-0005DL-MU@mail.python.org> 
References: <E1A2JaV-0005DL-MU@mail.python.org> 
Message-ID: <200309250018.h8P0I4x18863@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>

> My understanding is that int(5.0) actually triggers __int__ -- a method
> inherited by all floats.  
> 
> When I go dir(5.0), I see __int__ listed, and I can go:
> 
>  >>> 5.0 .__int__()
>  5
> 
> So far so good.  
> 
> But then I can also go int('123') and get back 123.  So why isn't __int__ a
> method of string objects?
> 
>  >>> '123' .__int__()
> 
> gets me an error, and dir('') doesn't show __int__ as being among string's
> methods.
> 
> Why?
> 
> I'd like to clear up this confusion because I'm writing some tutorial
> materials.  What I don't understand, I can't rightly explain.

int() special-cases various argument types.  It only calls __int__
when none of the special cases apply.  An argument of type str is a
special case (as is an argument of type unicode) because in that case,
and *only* that case, the optional second 'base' argument is accepted.

(If you really want to know more, RTSL. :-)

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From urnerk at qwest.net  Wed Sep 24 22:06:30 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Wed Sep 24 22:06:35 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Consistency question
In-Reply-To: <200309250018.h8P0I4x18863@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <E1A2LWa-0000vg-Gw@mail.python.org>


So I'm wondering how one gets a handle on int-the-builtin-function versus
int the integer type (is there such?).

For example:

 >>> type(__builtins__.iter)
 <type 'builtin_function_or_method'>

 >>> type(__builtins__.issubclass)
 <type 'builtin_function_or_method'>

but

 >>> type(__builtins__.int)
 <type 'type'>

It would seem there'd be a builtin_function_or_method named int, in addition
to the int type, but I can't seem to get at it using dir() or type().  Is
there a way to bind the built-in int function to a name?

Kirby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On
> Behalf Of Guido van Rossum
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 5:18 PM
> To: Kirby Urner
> Cc: edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Consistency question
> 
> > My understanding is that int(5.0) actually triggers __int__ -- a method
> > inherited by all floats.
> >
> > When I go dir(5.0), I see __int__ listed, and I can go:
> >
> >  >>> 5.0 .__int__()
> >  5
> >
> > So far so good.
> >
> > But then I can also go int('123') and get back 123.  So why isn't
> __int__ a
> > method of string objects?
> >
> >  >>> '123' .__int__()
> >
> > gets me an error, and dir('') doesn't show __int__ as being among
> string's
> > methods.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > I'd like to clear up this confusion because I'm writing some tutorial
> > materials.  What I don't understand, I can't rightly explain.
> 
> int() special-cases various argument types.  It only calls __int__
> when none of the special cases apply.  An argument of type str is a
> special case (as is an argument of type unicode) because in that case,
> and *only* that case, the optional second 'base' argument is accepted.
> 
> (If you really want to know more, RTSL. :-)
> 
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)





From guido at python.org  Wed Sep 24 23:07:54 2003
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed Sep 24 23:08:19 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Consistency question
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:06:30 PDT."
	<E1A2LWa-0000vg-Gw@mail.python.org> 
References: <E1A2LWa-0000vg-Gw@mail.python.org> 
Message-ID: <200309250307.h8P37sD18959@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>

> So I'm wondering how one gets a handle on int-the-builtin-function versus
> int the integer type (is there such?).

No, there isn't.

> For example:
> 
>  >>> type(__builtins__.iter)
>  <type 'builtin_function_or_method'>
> 
>  >>> type(__builtins__.issubclass)
>  <type 'builtin_function_or_method'>
> 
> but
> 
>  >>> type(__builtins__.int)
>  <type 'type'>
> 
> It would seem there'd be a builtin_function_or_method named int, in
> addition to the int type, but I can't seem to get at it using dir()
> or type().  Is there a way to bind the built-in int function to a
> name?

The constructor of the int type (actually int.__new__) is what does
all the magic.  __new__ methods can return whatever they please:
int("100000000000000000000") returns a long.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From urnerk at qwest.net  Thu Sep 25 01:19:12 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Thu Sep 25 01:19:16 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Consistency question
In-Reply-To: <200309250307.h8P37sD18959@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <E1A2OX3-000261-UU@mail.python.org>


> > So I'm wondering how one gets a handle on int-the-builtin-function
> > versus int the integer type (is there such?).
> 
> No, there isn't.
> 

Ah, I see.  
 
> The constructor of the int type (actually int.__new__) is what does
> all the magic.  __new__ methods can return whatever they please:
> int("100000000000000000000") returns a long.
> 
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

So it seems that the int type almost doesn't need an __int__ method, since
so much power resides in the constructor.

If I subclass int and define __int__ myself, I wonder under what
circumstances __int__ will be invoked -- other than by invoking it
explicitly using myobj.__int__() semantics.

Kirby



From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net  Thu Sep 25 03:45:06 2003
From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe)
Date: Thu Sep 25 03:42:52 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
References: <BB97F1C4.2F7C%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c38338$f0d1e2c0$6501a8c0@vaio>

[..snip.. ]
> > I am very curious about many aspects of the story.
>
> But maybe computer use needs to be taught from ground up integrated with
> math, like teaching laboratory technique in science. But math is not
thought
> of that way. It is thought of as a kind of intelligence to have, a kind of
> virtuosity where using computers is cheating and unnatural. Some people
> still see calculators as cheating, but they have now for the most part
made
> the running shoes level of cheating when computers are still at the
steroids
> level.

Wow  Shelley!
Thanks mucho for such a great reply.
Lots to digest here...

- Jason


From ajsiegel at optonline.net  Thu Sep 25 09:54:46 2003
From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur)
Date: Thu Sep 25 09:54:56 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Computer Hatred
Message-ID: <000501c3836c$94a3b850$0c02a8c0@Arts>

Shelley writes -

>My first experience specifically with Excel hatred was when I decided to
>simply make homework count as more of their grade, because it seemed like
>such a waste to make people go through the tedium required to do statistics
>all by hand. The students in this class were mainly business majors who I
>thought worked with Excel all the time, and already knew how to use it
>better than I did, because previous classes had seemed to want to be able
to
>use it.

I'm surprised about the Excel.

How about word processing?  Are they comfortable with the use of a simple
word processor.  Taking my son as an example - NY City public schools -  he
was strongly encouraged to use a word processor for his assignments from an
early age.  He adjusted quickly enough.  The clincher was when he realized
that if the assignment was to write 2 pages on a subject, he could adjust
the font size to get him where he needed to be. He knew 24 pt might be
pushing it.  But, in concept, he was sold! Computers *are* useful. Cute
story, maybe.  But quite literally true.

Word processing and spreadsheets - probably in that order - were largely
what fueled the rise in personal computers.

In the world in which I interact, the possession of basic spreadsheet
skills - from the clerical staff, to the sales staff, to the CEO - is an
expectation.  Like the ability to jot a memo in a simple word processor, or
send an e-mail.   But it is also true that nobody formally is taught much
about any of this, and there is a tremendous "futz factor" (a term I heard
the CEO of Sun use the term to describe the billions of $ wasted by the
inefficiencies connected to people futzing with a certain popular desktop
operating system).

That futz factor being quite real.  That certain operating system,  with
flying this and that screen savers and built_in games and toys and
temptations galore - it is a real anomally to me how it became ubiquitous on
the desks of Business. Something quite beyond rational at work. (I am a
comfortable and satisfied user of it myself, though that's not the point in
the context of a discussion of education, IMO.)

I can program - somewhat.  And am a power user of something like Excel.  But
do not know how to do make a personal photo into my default Windows desktop
background.  So in that respect there are millions of office workers more
savy than myself.

Necessity being the mother - and different things are necessary to different
people.

>But maybe computer use needs to be taught from ground up integrated with
>math, like teaching laboratory technique in science. But math is not
thought
>of that way. It is thought of as a kind of intelligence to have, a kind of
>virtuosity where using computers is cheating and unnatural. Some people
>still see calculators as cheating, but they have now for the most part made
>the running shoes level of cheating when computers are still at the
steroids
>level.

Not on a purist.  But I think there is a real issue about using public funds
to teach people how to use any proprietary software of a for profit
company - no matter how ubiquitous that software might be. And I don't think
that the "system" is totally insensitive to that issue. Which is partly why
things are moving slowly. There is good principle behind the hesitation to
ignore the issues here, I believe.  And I am a certified Capitalist.

It is hard to escape the fact that "toplevel" computer skills are to a good
extent operating system and application software specific.

Which is why the teaching of "toplevel" skills at school might not be fully
appropriate.

And which is why Linux is so important, in my mind, in education. To me it
is the only platform on which the investment in public funds to teach skills
is justifiable.

And the fact that is a little harder is a little better, not a little worse.

Though it demands more of the teacher.

Which contributes to my conclusion that we are at the teaching the teacher
stage of things.  And that the focus is better on higher education, at this
monent, than lower.

Art



From guido at python.org  Thu Sep 25 10:47:26 2003
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu Sep 25 10:48:02 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Consistency question
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:19:12 PDT."
	<E1A2OX3-000261-UU@mail.python.org> 
References: <E1A2OX3-000261-UU@mail.python.org> 
Message-ID: <200309251447.h8PElQ519749@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>

> So it seems that the int type almost doesn't need an __int__ method,
> since so much power resides in the constructor.

Right.

> If I subclass int and define __int__ myself, I wonder under what
> circumstances __int__ will be invoked -- other than by invoking it
> explicitly using myobj.__int__() semantics.

Indeed, this is a gray area where you can't count on clean semantics.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From urnerk at qwest.net  Thu Sep 25 11:56:41 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Thu Sep 25 11:56:47 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
In-Reply-To: <BB97F1C4.2F7C%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <E1A2YU1-0005WQ-AE@mail.python.org>


>>> import string

>>> text = (
"""
I have my hopes up that I'll be getting some more front lines field
experience teaching a Python + math mix, starting in October.  

A homeschooler mom is getting some kids together (around middle school age)
and is planning to rent space at FreeGeek, the local cast-off computer
recycler (they recombine parts the work to make FreekBoxes, many of which go
home with the refurbisher volunteers).

Whereas there's some carry-over from the calculator, in that Python features
an interactive command line, probably it's a good idea to start showing
things Python does that calculators have a hard time with.  In particular,
programming calculators is hard because of the small screen -- the higher
end ones connect to a computer console at this point.

Calculators also have a hard time doing stuff with letters.
"""
)


>>> def letfreq(txt):
	txt = txt.upper()
	for char in string.ascii_uppercase + ' ':
		print "%s --> %s" % (char, txt.count(char))

		
 >>> letfreq(text)
 A --> 53
 B --> 8
 C --> 31
 D --> 15
 E --> 78
 F --> 13
 G --> 18
 H --> 40
 I --> 40
 J --> 0
 K --> 5
 L --> 28
 M --> 25
 N --> 37
 O --> 55
 P --> 15
 Q --> 0
 R --> 46
 S --> 38
 T --> 64
 U --> 14
 V --> 6
 W --> 7
 X --> 3
 Y --> 9
 Z --> 0
   --> 132

Kirby



From ajsiegel at optonline.net  Thu Sep 25 12:35:56 2003
From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur)
Date: Thu Sep 25 12:49:49 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: COMPUTER HATRED
Message-ID: <000901c38383$19a8c070$0c02a8c0@Arts>

>In the world in which I interact, the possession of basic spreadsheet
>skills - from the clerical staff, to the sales staff, to the CEO - is an
>expectation.  Like the ability to jot a memo in a simple word processor, or
>send an e-mail.   But it is also true that nobody formally is taught much
>about any of this, and there is a tremendous "futz factor"

Happens that in the hour since I wrote that I took 2 calls:

One, from a friend who is an avid and skilled Mac user, and who just went
into business and for which, yesterday, he had gotten set-up with a small
Windows peer-to-peer network.  He couldn't figure out how to get to Windows
Explorer to see his file system. The guru - me - suggests a right click on
the Start button.  Right clicks are apparently new to Mac folk.

And from the wife of a colleague who has a small business, and has an
assistant working on moving files from an old computer to a new, and they
ran into something -  I haven't called back to find out what yet.

My role is interesting - just an informal resource to folks.  The informal
transfer of knowledge being what the system seems to be dependent on at this
point.

Perhaps this is a circa 2003 form of community.

On the other hand, others - probably not without cause - see more serious
issues at stake. From the front page of today's Yahoo:

Report Calls Reliance on Microsoft a Risk to U.S. Security
http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=Business&cat=Microsoft

It is hard to talk about anything related computers today - certainly not
education - without addressing the Microsoft issue.  We use the word Excel
to mean spreadsheet, at this point.  Despite the fact that Microsoft had
little to do with its conceptual development.

None of this, in my hands, is a call to arms.

Yet.

Microsoft can't expect the massive use of public funds to teach their
specific take on technology, and so by not finding a way of getting out of
the way they are in effect bringing things to a near standstill. Which
ultimately will come back to haunt them.

I, a great believer in enlightened self-interest, still holds out hope that
Microsoft will be clever enough to understand this and move over gracefully
and graciously when it comes to education.

But I will probably be disappointed.

So folks like me will probably become more shrill on the Microsoft issue as
time goes on.

Art





From glingl at aon.at  Thu Sep 25 16:59:42 2003
From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl)
Date: Thu Sep 25 17:01:34 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
Message-ID: <3F73573E.7040605@aon.at>

Hi Pythonistas!

Today I'd like to ask a question, which at first may look a bit
technical, but which in fact for me is of high didactical importance.
It concerns the proper use of IDLE in Python 2.3.

With Python 2.2 (and IDLE 0.8) I used to use IDLE interactively
with my students to explore different features of Tkinter. I'll give
you two short examples:

1. Exploring Widgets:

>>> root = Tk()
>>> cv = Canvas(root, bg="white")
>>> cv.pack()
>>> btn = Button(root,text="Push")
>>> btn.pack()
>>> btn.config(bg="red")
>>> # pushing the button doesn't do anything!
>>> def action():
   cv.create_rectangle(50,50,150,100,fill="red")

  
>>> btn.config(command=action)
>>> # pushing button creates red rectangle
>>> cv.find_all()
(1,)
>>> cv.move(cv.find_all()[0], 100,150)
>>> # rectangle moved , now create a new one
>>> # or config existing widgets or canvasitems etc. etc.

Shortly, learn how Tkinter works

2. Using turtle-graphics

>>> from turtle import *
>>> forward(100)

A Canvas pops up and the turtle starts to move
and remains ready for the user to interact with
her interactively.

Alas! Both examples don't work in ordinary IDLE 1.0 - mode
I'm well aware of the advantages of IDLE 1.0, especially
the one always to have a  clean  workspace for testing 
programs - and I'd like to port as much of them to a
customized development environment I use in my classes.

Now, I'm considering to work with both of the two modes
in my classes, although I'm not sure, if this will be
easy to explain to my students.

How do you proceed to "keep it as simple as possible, but
not simpler?"

Are there other ways for developing Tkinter-GUI-programs
interactively.
Specifically: can the turtle.module only be used
interactively (as intended) with the IDLE -n switch?

Although there are many other graphics modules around
I certainly will stick to using Tkinter (and IDLE),
because I consider it to be a big advantage for beginners to
start with tools as they come out of the box.

(Aside:  nevertheless I use to use IDLE with pythons -Qnew -
switch to avoid complications with division, i. e.
In my classes I silently import the future
- one of my means to minimize computer-hatred ;-)  )

Therefore I'm interested in every comment and every idea
on how to use the new IDLE optimally for educational purposes.

So I'll post this question (in contrast to my usual habit)
on tutor, edu-sig and idle-dev. This will remain an exception.

Regards

Gregor Lingl

P.S.: The new possibilities of printing the content of windows
and of customizing the appearance of IDLE (fonts, colors etc.)
easily e.g. for use with a beamer in a classroom is imho a big
advance. Especially when I try to convince my colleagues to use
Python, who, accustomed to the usual Windows, VisualBasic etc. comfort,
used to critisize the spartanic features of the old IDLE.
If you believe it or not, for many teachers (and students) those
things matter!

P.P.S: Moreover a gentle update of Dennies gentle introduction
to the use of IDLE would be a hit!










From glingl at aon.at  Thu Sep 25 17:00:24 2003
From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl)
Date: Thu Sep 25 17:02:09 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Additional remark concerning -Qnew with IDLE 1.0
Message-ID: <3F735768.3080209@aon.at>

Hi,

just observed (for the second time :-( )
that the -Qnew switch dowsn't work with IDLE 1.0
except in -n mode. I.e.:

With

python.exe -Qnew idle.pyw

IDLE does not perform float-division with integer arguments,
whereas with

python.exe -Qnew idle.pyw -n

new division works.
This seem strange and inconsistent?

Regards

Gregor Lingl






From urnerk at qwest.net  Thu Sep 25 17:25:54 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Thu Sep 25 17:26:01 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: <3F73573E.7040605@aon.at>
Message-ID: <E1A2dcc-0006C2-JW@mail.python.org>

Hi Gregor --

> Shortly, learn how Tkinter works
> 
> 2. Using turtle-graphics
> 
> >>> from turtle import *
> >>> forward(100)

I'm able to accomplish the following without trouble:

>>> from turtle import *
>>> up()
>>> setx(0)
>>> forward(100)
>>> down()
>>> right(180)
>>> forward(200)
>>> ============== RESTART ==============

This last line shows how I close the turtle window, by going up to 'shell'
and clicking on 'restart shell'.  I can't find any more graceful way to
exit.

> A Canvas pops up and the turtle starts to move
> and remains ready for the user to interact with
> her interactively.
> 
> Alas! Both examples don't work in ordinary IDLE 1.0 - mode
> I'm well aware of the advantages of IDLE 1.0, especially
> the one always to have a  clean  workspace for testing
> programs - and I'd like to port as much of them to a
> customized development environment I use in my classes.

I am using:

Python 2.3.1 (#47, Sep 23 2003, 23:47:32) [MSC v.1200 32 bit (Intel)] on
win32
Type "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information.

    ****************************************************************
    Personal firewall software may warn about the connection IDLE
    makes to its subprocess using this computer's internal loopback
    interface.  This connection is not visible on any external
    interface and no data is sent to or received from the Internet.
    ****************************************************************
    
IDLE 1.0      


Re font size, custom colors etc., yes, I believe it, those things do matter.

Kirby



From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net  Thu Sep 25 21:59:42 2003
From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe)
Date: Thu Sep 25 21:58:06 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Flash Class Browser
Message-ID: <001301c383d1$dac5b760$6501a8c0@vaio>

A class browser for Flash ActionScript using wxPython

http://www.sephiroth.it/phpwiki/index.php/ClassBrowser?PHPSESSID=2997e50b3d0c49b12647b88f32a935c5

- Jason


From glingl at aon.at  Fri Sep 26 00:45:52 2003
From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl)
Date: Fri Sep 26 00:47:41 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
Message-ID: <3F73C480.6070101@aon.at>



Kirby Urner schrieb:

>Hi Gregor --
>
>  
>
>>Shortly, learn how Tkinter works
>>
>>2. Using turtle-graphics
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>from turtle import *
>>>>>forward(100)
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>
>I'm able to accomplish the following without trouble:
>  
>
Hi Kirby,
this definitely doesn't work on my machine (Windows XP with Python 3.2)
 after having typed up() the turtle window is created, but it remains behind
the IDLE window. I click the corresponting taskbar-button, see the
turtle-window and after a few seconds there appears the message
"keine ruecklmeldung" (something like "no response") in the title-bar of
the turtle window. I cant't draw in that window - but, yes, i can close
it with shell-restart.
What's going on?
Gregor

>  
>
>>>>from turtle import *
>>>>up()
>>>>setx(0)
>>>>forward(100)
>>>>down()
>>>>right(180)
>>>>forward(200)
>>>>============== RESTART ==============
>>>>        
>>>>
>
>This last line shows how I close the turtle window, by going up to 'shell'
>and clicking on 'restart shell'.  I can't find any more graceful way to
>exit.
>
>  
>
>>A Canvas pops up and the turtle starts to move
>>and remains ready for the user to interact with
>>her interactively.
>>
>>Alas! Both examples don't work in ordinary IDLE 1.0 - mode
>>I'm well aware of the advantages of IDLE 1.0, especially
>>the one always to have a  clean  workspace for testing
>>programs - and I'd like to port as much of them to a
>>customized development environment I use in my classes.
>>    
>>
>
>I am using:
>
>Python 2.3.1 (#47, Sep 23 2003, 23:47:32) [MSC v.1200 32 bit (Intel)] on
>win32
>Type "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information.
>
>    ****************************************************************
>    Personal firewall software may warn about the connection IDLE
>    makes to its subprocess using this computer's internal loopback
>    interface.  This connection is not visible on any external
>    interface and no data is sent to or received from the Internet.
>    ****************************************************************
>    
>IDLE 1.0      
>
>
>Re font size, custom colors etc., yes, I believe it, those things do matter.
>
>Kirby
>
>
>
>
>  
>


From urnerk at qwest.net  Fri Sep 26 01:09:37 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Fri Sep 26 01:09:44 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: <3F73C480.6070101@aon.at>
Message-ID: <E1A2krO-0003aX-NU@mail.python.org>

> Hi Kirby,
> this definitely doesn't work on my machine (Windows XP with Python 3.2)

I just downloaded 2.3.1 today or yesterday.  That couldn't be the difference
could it?  Windows XP here too.

It's true for me as well that when I first say up(), the Tk window is behind
the main one.  I see it by sliding the main one out of the way.  I don't
touch the secondary one.

The secondary window (showing the turtle) is not responsive in the usual
way.  

For example, if I hit the maximize icon, nothing happens.  But next time I
go up(), the window maximizes (i.e. the action occurs only on programmatic
refresh).  Likewise to shrink it down again (using the icon) -- the resize
event is postponed until the next turtle event.

If the secondary window minimizes to the task bar, I double-click on it.
Then I go up() or setx() or something, and it tends to return to its
previous (open) state.

If a window moves in front of the secondary window, and then is moved away,
the secondary window will not refresh and is likely blank -- until the next
turtle event.

Kirby



From glingl at aon.at  Fri Sep 26 05:20:06 2003
From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl)
Date: Fri Sep 26 05:23:40 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
Message-ID: <3F7404C6.2090505@aon.at>

Thanks Kirby, for your experiments.
On my machine things work differently and apparently
wrong. Two more very short examples.

Example 1:

Start IDLE (Python 2.3.1, IDLE 1.0)

 >>> from turtle import *
 >>> demo()

Now something very strange happens: three squares are drawn slowly and then,
after approximately two seconds the program seems to stop during execution.
Inserting appropriate print statements into turtle.py, for tracing,
reveals that the program *is* executed until the end, but this is not 
reflected
on the Canvas. (A stair and som text should have appeared.)
Trying to close the Canvas provokes the well known Windows
dialog that comes when a program doesn't react any more. There I can
terminate it immediatly by pressing the corresponding button.

The same happens on a Windows2000 Machine with Python 2.3

Of course demo can be run without problems as a separate process in IDLE 1.0
after having loaded Python23\Lib\lib-tk\turtle.py into the editor.

Conlusion: There is a bug somewhere, but I can't even loacate it exactly.


Examples 2, concerning a different sort of problem:

RestartIDLE

 >>> from Tkinter import *
 >>> root = Tk()    # Nothing happens; in IDLE 0.8 a tiny empty 
Tk-Window appeared
 >>> cv = Canvas(root)
 >>> cv.pack()      # Still nothing happens; in IDLE 0.8 you saw the 
Canvas packed intp
                   # the TK window (default-size of the Canvas)
 >>> root.mainloop()  # this was not advised in IDLE 0.8

Now the Tk-Window appears on the screen (same appearance as in IDLE 0.8)
but - of course - I cannot input any more statements into IDLE, I think
because of the running mainloop(). Only when I close the newly created 
window
IDLE is ready for more input.

Conclusion: I can't play around any more with Tkinter windows 
interactively.

Any ideas?

Gregor


Kirby Urner schrieb:

>>Hi Kirby,
>>this definitely doesn't work on my machine (Windows XP with Python 3.2)
>>    
>>
>
>I just downloaded 2.3.1 today or yesterday.  That couldn't be the difference
>could it?  Windows XP here too.
>
>It's true for me as well that when I first say up(), the Tk window is behind
>the main one.  I see it by sliding the main one out of the way.  I don't
>touch the secondary one.
>
>The secondary window (showing the turtle) is not responsive in the usual
>way.  
>
>For example, if I hit the maximize icon, nothing happens.  But next time I
>go up(), the window maximizes (i.e. the action occurs only on programmatic
>refresh).  Likewise to shrink it down again (using the icon) -- the resize
>event is postponed until the next turtle event.
>
>If the secondary window minimizes to the task bar, I double-click on it.
>Then I go up() or setx() or something, and it tends to return to its
>previous (open) state.
>
>If a window moves in front of the secondary window, and then is moved away,
>the secondary window will not refresh and is likely blank -- until the next
>turtle event.
>
>Kirby
>
>
>
>
>  
>


From glingl at aon.at  Fri Sep 26 05:48:34 2003
From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl)
Date: Fri Sep 26 05:50:21 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: <3F7404C6.2090505@aon.at>
References: <3F7404C6.2090505@aon.at>
Message-ID: <3F740B72.4090604@aon.at>



Hi!

>
>
> Conlusion: There is a bug somewhere, but I can't even loacate it exactly.

I think (I hope) that I've found the bug in turtle.py. It has to do with 
updating the Canvas.
This is not done, when tracer(0) is issued.

Updating is regularely done in _draw_turtle. But not, if  self._tracing 
is turned off.
- see line 290 of turtle.py - .

So there we have to insert a statement for updating the canvas. E.g.:

    def _draw_turtle(self,position=[]):
        if not self._tracing:
            self._canvas.update()   #  <== Insert this line
            return
        if position == []:
            #  etc. etc.


With this correction interactive use of turtle.py is possible and demo 
runs as expected.
Without it the program seems to remain hanging because of some pending 
(update?)
events?

The turtle-window has still to be closed via Shell/restart as Kirby 
suggested.

(I  must confess that I still not have a profound understanding of the 
problem, and
maybe there are similar pitfalls in the code of turtle.py still hanging 
around).

I'll test this extensively soon.

Regards, Gregor

>
>
> Examples 2, concerning a different sort of problem:
>
> RestartIDLE
>
> >>> from Tkinter import *
> >>> root = Tk()    # Nothing happens; in IDLE 0.8 a tiny empty 
> Tk-Window appeared
> >>> cv = Canvas(root)
> >>> cv.pack()      # Still nothing happens; in IDLE 0.8 you saw the 
> Canvas packed intp
>                   # the TK window (default-size of the Canvas)
> >>> root.mainloop()  # this was not advised in IDLE 0.8
>
> Now the Tk-Window appears on the screen (same appearance as in IDLE 0.8)
> but - of course - I cannot input any more statements into IDLE, I think
> because of the running mainloop(). Only when I close the newly created 
> window
> IDLE is ready for more input.
>
> Conclusion: I can't play around any more with Tkinter windows 
> interactively.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Gregor
>
>
> Kirby Urner schrieb:
>
>>> Hi Kirby,
>>> this definitely doesn't work on my machine (Windows XP with Python 3.2)
>>>   
>>
>>
>> I just downloaded 2.3.1 today or yesterday.  That couldn't be the 
>> difference
>> could it?  Windows XP here too.
>>
>> It's true for me as well that when I first say up(), the Tk window is 
>> behind
>> the main one.  I see it by sliding the main one out of the way.  I don't
>> touch the secondary one.
>>
>> The secondary window (showing the turtle) is not responsive in the usual
>> way. 
>> For example, if I hit the maximize icon, nothing happens.  But next 
>> time I
>> go up(), the window maximizes (i.e. the action occurs only on 
>> programmatic
>> refresh).  Likewise to shrink it down again (using the icon) -- the 
>> resize
>> event is postponed until the next turtle event.
>>
>> If the secondary window minimizes to the task bar, I double-click on it.
>> Then I go up() or setx() or something, and it tends to return to its
>> previous (open) state.
>>
>> If a window moves in front of the secondary window, and then is moved 
>> away,
>> the secondary window will not refresh and is likely blank -- until 
>> the next
>> turtle event.
>>
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>


From shelley.walsh9 at ntlworld.com  Wed Sep 24 07:31:13 2003
From: shelley.walsh9 at ntlworld.com (Shelley Walsh)
Date: Fri Sep 26 07:18:36 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred
Message-ID: <BB973F10.2E25%shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com>

I while back I wrote to Kirby about something that happened to me when I
tried to use Python to help with understanding of mathematical concepts. At
that time I didn't have time to participate in this group when Kirby
suggested it, but he told me he posted what I wrote to the group.

Basically the discovery that I am making over and over is that students that
have trouble with just the kinds of mathematical topics that I would have
thought some experience with Python would help with, are even more terrified
of computers than they are of mathematics.

It isn't just Python, either, for all the talk about use of computers in the
mathematics classroom as dumbing down, my recent experience is that students
find it harder with computers rather than easier. I had statistics students
who even in a distance education class where they were supposed to submit
their assignments on Excel spreadsheets, would go so far as to submit
something that was in tabular form in a textbox carefully using the space
bar to get things to line up correctly. I had several others who would type
without the = sign almost exactly the calculations that Excel would have
done for them in a cell, and then repeat the same keystrokes in their
calculators, and then type the answer displayed in the calculator. Most
recently I have been teaching a "Nature of Mathematics" sort of survey
course where use of spreadsheets is even part of the course, and I have a
student who will do exercises from a section specifically about use of
spreadsheet, and do the exercises perfectly, but refuse to actually put them
in an Excel sheet, saying she can't deal with Excel.

Anybody have a clue about what is going on with such computer phobics or
what to do about it?

I am ideally very attracted to the ideas that Kirby has about integrating
mathematics and programming, but my recent experience is suggesting caution.
I am very much interested in your opinions about this.
-- 
Shelley Walsh
shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com
http://homepage.mac.com/shelleywalsh


From urnerk at qwest.net  Fri Sep 26 11:40:57 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Fri Sep 26 11:40:57 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: <3F7404C6.2090505@aon.at>
Message-ID: <E1A2uiE-00025L-Sc@mail.python.org>


> From: Gregor Lingl [mailto:glingl@aon.at]
> Example 1:
> 
> Start IDLE (Python 2.3.1, IDLE 1.0)
> 
>  >>> from turtle import *
>  >>> demo()
> 
> Now something very strange happens: three squares are drawn slowly and
> then,
> after approximately two seconds the program seems to stop during
> execution.


Over here, demo() executes OK, with 3 small boxes.  The 3rd box is filled in
(color filled).

I wonder if there's any chance your file associations are connecting you to
more than one version of Python.  Do your .py and .pyc files all point to
the latest install?  Do other Pythons exist on the same machine?

The Tk() mainloop() example is as you report it -- not sure if that's a bug
(it seems a window without any defined controls *would* be unresponsive --
there is no chance for the user to generate events, other than to terminate
the loop).

BTW, have you explored GUI event programming with wxPython instead of Tk?
There's a lot more functionality in wx -- just running the wxPython demo
will probably convince you of that.

But that doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't use *both* (plus there's the
win32all approach).

Kirby



From glingl at aon.at  Fri Sep 26 12:01:21 2003
From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl)
Date: Fri Sep 26 12:03:12 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
Message-ID: <3F7462D1.4070006@aon.at>



Kirby Urner schrieb:

>>From: Gregor Lingl [mailto:glingl@aon.at]
>>Example 1:
>>
>>Start IDLE (Python 2.3.1, IDLE 1.0)
>>
>> >>> from turtle import *
>> >>> demo()
>>
>>Now something very strange happens: three squares are drawn slowly and
>>then,
>>after approximately two seconds the program seems to stop during
>>execution.
>>    
>>
>#
>
Hi Kirby!

>Over here, demo() executes OK, with 3 small boxes.  The 3rd box is filled in
>(color filled).
>
Yes, but demo() produces a lot more when you run it standalone (as a script)

>
>I wonder if there's any chance your file associations are connecting you to
>more than one version of Python.  Do your .py and .pyc files all point to
>the latest install?  Do other Pythons exist on the same machine?
>
>The Tk() mainloop() example is as you report it -- not sure if that's a bug
>(it seems a window without any defined controls *would* be unresponsive --
>there is no chance for the user to generate events, other than to terminate
>the loop).
>
It worked *a lot* different with IDLE 0.8. There you could visually 
interactivly compose GUIs.
If wonder if this also is an update() - problem

Gregor

>BTW, have you explored GUI event programming with wxPython instead of Tk?
>There's a lot more functionality in wx -- just running the wxPython demo
>will probably convince you of that.
>  
>
O.k., but for me it's to big to use in classes. Maybe wax will be ok?

http://zephyrfalcon.org/labs/wax_primer.html

Best wishes,
Gregor

>But that doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't use *both* (plus there's the
>win32all approach).
>
>Kirby
>
>
>
>
>  
>


From urnerk at qwest.net  Fri Sep 26 12:26:07 2003
From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner)
Date: Fri Sep 26 12:26:11 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: <3F7462D1.4070006@aon.at>
Message-ID: <E1A2vPy-0003sP-Hs@mail.python.org>

> Yes, but demo() produces a lot more when you run it standalone (as a
> script)
> 

Oh, I see what you mean.

You're right, IDLE 1.0 is not fully functional when it comes to doing Tk
stuff.

I inserted your bug fix for turtle.py and that certainly improved matters.

I'm glad you're persistent in your investigations and posting to the
idle-dev archive.

Kirby



From delza at blastradius.com  Fri Sep 26 12:33:55 2003
From: delza at blastradius.com (Dethe Elza)
Date: Fri Sep 26 12:34:02 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: <E1A2krO-0003aX-NU@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <38A4C620-F03F-11D7-A541-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com>

On Thursday, September 25, 2003, at 10:09 PM, Kirby Urner wrote:

> It's true for me as well that when I first say up(), the Tk window is 
> behind
> the main one.  I see it by sliding the main one out of the way.  I 
> don't
> touch the secondary one.
>
> The secondary window (showing the turtle) is not responsive in the 
> usual
> way.

This is the case for me when I try using turtle commands from the 
python interpreter interactively, so it doesn't seem to be limited to 
Idle behaviour.  I'm using Python 2.3 on OS X (10.2) with the native Tk 
library.  I cannot close the Tk window.  When I click in the window the 
interpreter prints

 >>> SetFrontProcess failed,-606

And the window has none of the control buttons or drag bar enabled.  OS 
X has some issues normally with starting up GUI windows from the 
command-line, but you can generally interact with them.

I hadn't played with the turtle package (I should look at it, since 
I've written my own incomplete turtle program with totally different 
interaction).  This was fun:

def zap(x):
   for i in range(0, x * 5, 5):
     circle(i)

for x in range(8):
   right(60)
   zap(x + 5)

It needs sound effects, though.

--Dethe


From glingl at aon.at  Fri Sep 26 12:49:03 2003
From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl)
Date: Fri Sep 26 12:59:18 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: <38A4C620-F03F-11D7-A541-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com>
References: <38A4C620-F03F-11D7-A541-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com>
Message-ID: <3F746DFF.4050400@aon.at>



Dethe Elza schrieb:

> On Thursday, September 25, 2003, at 10:09 PM, Kirby Urner wrote:
>
>> It's true for me as well that when I first say up(), the Tk window is 
>> behind
>> the main one.  I see it by sliding the main one out of the way.  I don't
>> touch the secondary one.
>>
>> The secondary window (showing the turtle) is not responsive in the usual
>> way.
>
>
> This is the case for me when I try using turtle commands from the 
> python interpreter interactively, so it doesn't seem to be limited to 
> Idle behaviour.  I'm using Python 2.3 on OS X (10.2) with the native 
> Tk library.  I cannot close the Tk window.  When I click in the window 
> the interpreter prints
>
> >>> SetFrontProcess failed,-606

Hi Dethe,
this doesn't occur under Windows. With commandline-python works as expected.

Moreover the Tk - example from my prior posting works also with Python 
3.2.1
command line interpreter exactly as it did with IDLE 0.8 in earlier 
Python versions.

Regards, Gregor

>
> And the window has none of the control buttons or drag bar enabled.  
> OS X has some issues normally with starting up GUI windows from the 
> command-line, but you can generally interact with them.
>
> I hadn't played with the turtle package (I should look at it, since 
> I've written my own incomplete turtle program with totally different 
> interaction).  This was fun:
>
> def zap(x):
>   for i in range(0, x * 5, 5):
>     circle(i)
>
> for x in range(8):
>   right(60)
>   zap(x + 5)
>
> It needs sound effects, though.
>
> --Dethe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>


From john.zelle at wartburg.edu  Fri Sep 26 17:11:50 2003
From: john.zelle at wartburg.edu (John Zelle)
Date: Fri Sep 26 17:13:12 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
References: <38A4C620-F03F-11D7-A541-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com>
	<3F746DFF.4050400@aon.at>
Message-ID: <3F74AB96.3070102@wartburg.edu>

Hello all,

I just wanted to confirm what has been reported here regarding IDLE 1.0. 
I have a simple 2D graphics package that I developed for CS1. It is 
basically a thin wrapper over a TK canvas. With versions of IDLE prior 
to 1.0, it was easy to experiment with the graphics interactively. Now, 
that is much harder. The basic problem is that the eventloop in the 
subprocess window is suspended when the IDLE interactive shell is 
waiting for input. As has already been reported, judicious calling of 
update() can be used to force the window to flush its queue. You can 
call update() from the IDLE shell to force the window to react.

For example:

 >>>  from Tkinter import *
 >>>  win = Tk()  # nothing appears
 >>>  win.update()  # Tk window pops up
 >>>  # now click in the close box of the Tk window, nothing happens
 >>> win.update() # Tk window closes

The interesting thing is that events are getting posted even when the 
window is unresponsive. As this example shows, the click in the close 
box is carried out when the update() call is made.

Under Windows, subprocess Tk windows are completely unresponsive and 
often pop up underneath the IDLE window.  If you drag the Tk window with 
the mouse, nothing seems to happen, but typing win.update() in the shell 
will cause the Tk window to jump to the new location. Under Linux, the 
situation is slightly better, the window is still under control of the 
window manager and can be moved and resized, but Tk events do not occur 
until an update().

My partial solution to this problem has been to add updates() to my 
library. But realistically, if you want to do interactive 
experiementation with Tkinter, the DOS or Linux command line is the 
better route now. It would be nice if this could be fixed, but I'm 
willing to give this up for the other features introduced by the IDLE fork.

--John

Gregor Lingl wrote:

>
>
> Dethe Elza schrieb:
>
>> On Thursday, September 25, 2003, at 10:09 PM, Kirby Urner wrote:
>>
>>> It's true for me as well that when I first say up(), the Tk window 
>>> is behind
>>> the main one.  I see it by sliding the main one out of the way.  I 
>>> don't
>>> touch the secondary one.
>>>
>>> The secondary window (showing the turtle) is not responsive in the 
>>> usual
>>> way.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is the case for me when I try using turtle commands from the 
>> python interpreter interactively, so it doesn't seem to be limited to 
>> Idle behaviour.  I'm using Python 2.3 on OS X (10.2) with the native 
>> Tk library.  I cannot close the Tk window.  When I click in the 
>> window the interpreter prints
>>
>> >>> SetFrontProcess failed,-606
>
>
> Hi Dethe,
> this doesn't occur under Windows. With commandline-python works as 
> expected.
>
> Moreover the Tk - example from my prior posting works also with Python 
> 3.2.1
> command line interpreter exactly as it did with IDLE 0.8 in earlier 
> Python versions.
>
> Regards, Gregor
>
>>
>> And the window has none of the control buttons or drag bar enabled.  
>> OS X has some issues normally with starting up GUI windows from the 
>> command-line, but you can generally interact with them.
>>
>> I hadn't played with the turtle package (I should look at it, since 
>> I've written my own incomplete turtle program with totally different 
>> interaction).  This was fun:
>>
>> def zap(x):
>>   for i in range(0, x * 5, 5):
>>     circle(i)
>>
>> for x in range(8):
>>   right(60)
>>   zap(x + 5)
>>
>> It needs sound effects, though.
>>
>> --Dethe
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Edu-sig mailing list
>> Edu-sig@python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>

-- 
    John M. Zelle, Ph.D.   |     Wartburg College    
   Associate Prof. of CS   |  Dept. Math/CS/Physics  
  john.zelle@wartburg.edu  |     Waverly, Iowa       




From guido at python.org  Fri Sep 26 17:33:57 2003
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri Sep 26 17:34:35 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:11:50 CDT."
	<3F74AB96.3070102@wartburg.edu> 
References: <38A4C620-F03F-11D7-A541-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com>
	<3F746DFF.4050400@aon.at> <3F74AB96.3070102@wartburg.edu> 
Message-ID: <200309262133.h8QLXvZ22213@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>

> I just wanted to confirm what has been reported here regarding IDLE 1.0. 
> I have a simple 2D graphics package that I developed for CS1. It is 
> basically a thin wrapper over a TK canvas. With versions of IDLE prior 
> to 1.0, it was easy to experiment with the graphics interactively. Now, 
> that is much harder. The basic problem is that the eventloop in the 
> subprocess window is suspended when the IDLE interactive shell is 
> waiting for input. As has already been reported, judicious calling of 
> update() can be used to force the window to flush its queue. You can 
> call update() from the IDLE shell to force the window to react.
> 
> For example:
> 
>  >>>  from Tkinter import *
>  >>>  win = Tk()  # nothing appears
>  >>>  win.update()  # Tk window pops up
>  >>>  # now click in the close box of the Tk window, nothing happens
>  >>> win.update() # Tk window closes
> 
> The interesting thing is that events are getting posted even when the 
> window is unresponsive. As this example shows, the click in the close 
> box is carried out when the update() call is made.
> 
> Under Windows, subprocess Tk windows are completely unresponsive and 
> often pop up underneath the IDLE window.  If you drag the Tk window with 
> the mouse, nothing seems to happen, but typing win.update() in the shell 
> will cause the Tk window to jump to the new location. Under Linux, the 
> situation is slightly better, the window is still under control of the 
> window manager and can be moved and resized, but Tk events do not occur 
> until an update().
> 
> My partial solution to this problem has been to add updates() to my 
> library. But realistically, if you want to do interactive 
> experiementation with Tkinter, the DOS or Linux command line is the 
> better route now. It would be nice if this could be fixed, but I'm 
> willing to give this up for the other features introduced by the IDLE fork.

This is because under IDLE 1.0, Tkinter programs don't get to benefit
from IDLE's Tkinter mainloop.  Tkinter programs written for use
outside IDLE runs fine under the new IDLE, because such programs
already have an explicit call to the Tkinter mainloop (otherwise they
wouldn't function at all).  Under IDLE 0.8, such programs, once started,
would be hard to stop because their mainloop and IDLE's mainloop would
compete.  But interactively playing with Tkinter has become harder.

So, the new IDLE, conforming one of its design goals, has actually
become more compatible with Tkinter applications -- but at the same
time the unique IDLE 0.8 feature of easy interactive Tkinter
experimentation has gone out of the window.

A work-around is to use the -n command line argument to idle (a bit
tricky to invoke on Windows but you should be able to add this to the
IDLE alias or create a batch file for it), which runs the Python code
in the IDLE process as in IDLE 0.8 (with all the risks of that mode,
like losing data in IDLE when the app crashes or hangs).

Perhaps this could be made a more easily configurable option (a
checkbox or radio button in the General configurations dialog would
seem the right place).

Do we need something else?  Perhaps some trick that you can invoke
that runs a Tkinter mainloop in a background thread?  (But note that
Tkinter and threads don't go well together.)

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From guido at python.org  Fri Sep 26 17:54:10 2003
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri Sep 26 17:54:45 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:11:50 CDT."
	<3F74AB96.3070102@wartburg.edu> 
References: <38A4C620-F03F-11D7-A541-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com>
	<3F746DFF.4050400@aon.at> <3F74AB96.3070102@wartburg.edu> 
Message-ID: <200309262154.h8QLsAM22247@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>

[resend, I wanted this to go to idle-dev but typed idle-sig]

> I just wanted to confirm what has been reported here regarding IDLE 1.0. 
> I have a simple 2D graphics package that I developed for CS1. It is 
> basically a thin wrapper over a TK canvas. With versions of IDLE prior 
> to 1.0, it was easy to experiment with the graphics interactively. Now, 
> that is much harder. The basic problem is that the eventloop in the 
> subprocess window is suspended when the IDLE interactive shell is 
> waiting for input. As has already been reported, judicious calling of 
> update() can be used to force the window to flush its queue. You can 
> call update() from the IDLE shell to force the window to react.
> 
> For example:
> 
>  >>>  from Tkinter import *
>  >>>  win = Tk()  # nothing appears
>  >>>  win.update()  # Tk window pops up
>  >>>  # now click in the close box of the Tk window, nothing happens
>  >>> win.update() # Tk window closes
> 
> The interesting thing is that events are getting posted even when the 
> window is unresponsive. As this example shows, the click in the close 
> box is carried out when the update() call is made.
> 
> Under Windows, subprocess Tk windows are completely unresponsive and 
> often pop up underneath the IDLE window.  If you drag the Tk window with 
> the mouse, nothing seems to happen, but typing win.update() in the shell 
> will cause the Tk window to jump to the new location. Under Linux, the 
> situation is slightly better, the window is still under control of the 
> window manager and can be moved and resized, but Tk events do not occur 
> until an update().
> 
> My partial solution to this problem has been to add updates() to my 
> library. But realistically, if you want to do interactive 
> experiementation with Tkinter, the DOS or Linux command line is the 
> better route now. It would be nice if this could be fixed, but I'm 
> willing to give this up for the other features introduced by the IDLE fork.

This is because under IDLE 1.0, Tkinter programs don't get to benefit
from IDLE's Tkinter mainloop.  Tkinter programs written for use
outside IDLE runs fine under the new IDLE, because such programs
already have an explicit call to the Tkinter mainloop (otherwise they
wouldn't function at all).  Under IDLE 0.8, such programs, once started,
would be hard to stop because their mainloop and IDLE's mainloop would
compete.  But interactively playing with Tkinter has become harder.

So, the new IDLE, conforming one of its design goals, has actually
become more compatible with Tkinter applications -- but at the same
time the unique IDLE 0.8 feature of easy interactive Tkinter
experimentation has gone out of the window.

A work-around is to use the -n command line argument to idle (a bit
tricky to invoke on Windows but you should be able to add this to the
IDLE alias or create a batch file for it), which runs the Python code
in the IDLE process as in IDLE 0.8 (with all the risks of that mode,
like losing data in IDLE when the app crashes or hangs).

Perhaps this could be made a more easily configurable option (a
checkbox or radio button in the General configurations dialog would
seem the right place).

Do we need something else?  Perhaps some trick that you can invoke
that runs a Tkinter mainloop in a background thread?  (But note that
Tkinter and threads don't go well together.)

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From glingl at aon.at  Fri Sep 26 18:30:43 2003
From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl)
Date: Fri Sep 26 18:32:29 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: <200309262133.h8QLXvZ22213@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
References: <38A4C620-F03F-11D7-A541-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com>	<3F746DFF.4050400@aon.at>
	<3F74AB96.3070102@wartburg.edu>
	<200309262133.h8QLXvZ22213@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3F74BE13.5040408@aon.at>



Guido van Rossum schrieb:

>This is because under IDLE 1.0, Tkinter programs don't get to benefit
>from IDLE's Tkinter mainloop.  Tkinter programs written for use
>outside IDLE runs fine under the new IDLE, because such programs
>already have an explicit call to the Tkinter mainloop (otherwise they
>wouldn't function at all).  Under IDLE 0.8, such programs, once started,
>would be hard to stop because their mainloop and IDLE's mainloop would
>compete.  But interactively playing with Tkinter has become harder.
>
>So, the new IDLE, conforming one of its design goals, has actually
>become more compatible with Tkinter applications -- but at the same
>time the unique IDLE 0.8 feature of easy interactive Tkinter
>experimentation has gone out of the window.
>
>A work-around is to use the -n command line argument to idle (a bit
>tricky to invoke on Windows but you should be able to add this to the
>IDLE alias or create a batch file for it), which runs the Python code
>in the IDLE process as in IDLE 0.8 (with all the risks of that mode,
>like losing data in IDLE when the app crashes or hangs).
>  
>
Hi Guido, thanks for your reply. For experimentation with Tkinter I do 
use IDLE with the -n switch
in my classes.

>Perhaps this could be made a more easily configurable option (a
>checkbox or radio button in the General configurations dialog would
>seem the right place).
>
The dream of any teacher would be, of course, to have a menu-switch to 
flip between the two
modes without the need to restart IDLE. But probably this would be hard 
to implement.

>Do we need something else?  Perhaps some trick that you can invoke
>that runs a Tkinter mainloop in a background thread?  (But note that
>Tkinter and threads don't go well together.)
>
Doesn't Tkinter claim to be threadsafe? (The few simple  programs  I 
wrote, whith several
threads drawing on the same Canvas showed no problems.)

However there is a different point: In my classes I use the -Qnew switch
for the Python interpreter (and also in my book, as you already noticed,
when you read some excerpts of it) and this works fine with IDLE -n, but,
alas, it doesn't work with IDLE 1.0 in standard mode. Is this a feature 
or a bug?

So what about a switch - or at least also a configuration option -  for 
the new division?

Regards,

Gregor

>
>--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>
>_______________________________________________
>Edu-sig mailing list
>Edu-sig@python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>
>  
>


From guido at python.org  Fri Sep 26 18:39:51 2003
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri Sep 26 18:40:35 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] How to explore Tkinter interactively with IDLE 1.0
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 27 Sep 2003 00:30:43 +0200."
	<3F74BE13.5040408@aon.at> 
References: <38A4C620-F03F-11D7-A541-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com>
	<3F746DFF.4050400@aon.at> <3F74AB96.3070102@wartburg.edu>
	<200309262133.h8QLXvZ22213@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com> 
	<3F74BE13.5040408@aon.at> 
Message-ID: <200309262239.h8QMdqR22408@12-236-84-31.client.attbi.com>

> Doesn't Tkinter claim to be threadsafe? (The few simple programs I
> wrote, whith several threads drawing on the same Canvas showed no
> problems.)

It does claim so, but (esp. on Windows) I'm doubtful of that claim for
large apps.

> However there is a different point: In my classes I use the -Qnew switch
> for the Python interpreter (and also in my book, as you already noticed,
> when you read some excerpts of it) and this works fine with IDLE -n, but,
> alas, it doesn't work with IDLE 1.0 in standard mode. Is this a feature 
> or a bug?

I consider it a bug.  I'm not sure how easy it will be to fix though,
but I encourage you to submit a SF bug for this.

> So what about a switch - or at least also a configuration option -  for 
> the new division?

A config option could work but only if you don't use -n. :-)

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From jeff at elkner.net  Sat Sep 27 13:33:18 2003
From: jeff at elkner.net (Jeffrey Elkner)
Date: Sat Sep 27 13:33:22 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] PyCon 2004 Proposals for Presentations...
Message-ID: <1064683998.5922.11.camel@robeson>

Hi All,

The message below was just sent to the Py-Con mailing list.  The
deadline for presentation proposals is December 1.  If we would like to
have a "Python in Education Track", all we need to do is begin
submitting proposals and establish a proceedure through this list for
proposal selection.

There seemed to be significant interest when last I asked about this.  I
will be submitting two proposals myself.  Who else is interested in
working with me to plan for this?  Who is willing to do a presentation?

-- 
Jeffrey Elkner <jeff@elkner.net>
Open Book Project <http://ibiblio.org/obp>


> Want to share your expertise?  PyCon DC 2004 is looking for proposals
to
> fill the formal presentation tracks.
> 
> PyCon DC 2003 had a broad range of presentations, from reports on
> academic and commercial projects to tutorials and case studies, and we
> hope to extend that range this year.  As long as the presentation is
> interesting and potentially useful to the Python community, it will be
> considered for inclusion in the program.
> 
> The proposal deadline is December 1; the proposal submission system
> should be up by mid-October.  Proposals should be 500-2000 words in
text
> (plain or reST) or HTML.  You may request either thirty or sixty
minutes
> for your timeslot.  Proposals will be accepted or rejected by January
1,
> 2004.
> 
> If you don't want to make a formal presentation, there will be a
> significant amount of Open Space to allow for informal and
> spur-of-the-moment presentations for which no formal submission is
> required.  There will also be several Lightning Talk sessions (five
> minutes or less).
> 
> 
> PyCon is a community-oriented conference targeting developers (both
those
> using Python and those working on the Python project).  It gives you
> opportunities to learn about significant advances in the Python
> development community, to participate in a programming sprint with
some
> of the leading minds in the Open Source community, and to meet fellow
> developers from around the world.  The organizers work to make the
> conference affordable and accessible to all.
> 
> DC 2004 will be held March 24-26, 2004 in Washington, D.C.  The
keynote
> speaker is Mitch Kapor of the Open Source Applications Foundation
> (http://www.osafoundation.org/).  There will be a four-day development
> sprint before the conference.
> 
> We're looking for volunteers to help run PyCon.  If you're interested,
> subscribe to http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers
> 
> Don't miss any PyCon announcements!  Subscribe to
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-announce
> 
> You can discuss PyCon with other interested people by subscribing to
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-interest
> 
> The central resource for PyCon DC 2004 is
> http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Pycon-organizers mailing list
> Pycon-organizers@mail.python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers



From lac at strakt.com  Sat Sep 27 13:57:44 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sat Sep 27 13:57:51 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] PyCon 2004 Proposals for Presentations... 
In-Reply-To: Message from Jeffrey Elkner <jeff@elkner.net> 
	of "Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:33:18 EDT." <1064683998.5922.11.camel@robeson> 
References: <1064683998.5922.11.camel@robeson> 
Message-ID: <200309271757.h8RHvih9024555@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

EuroPython is interested in an education track as well.  We're meeting
in Gothenburg Sweden the week of June 9th, and we haven't made a
formal announcement yet, but I already know we are interested.

Laura

From jeff at elkner.net  Sat Sep 27 14:11:41 2003
From: jeff at elkner.net (Jeffrey Elkner)
Date: Sat Sep 27 14:11:46 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] PyCon 2004 Proposals for Presentations...
In-Reply-To: <200309271757.h8RHvih9024555@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <1064683998.5922.11.camel@robeson>
	<200309271757.h8RHvih9024555@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <1064686301.5922.40.camel@robeson>

Hi Laura,

Perhaps we can compare notes down the road to make our respective tasks
easier?  I'm hoping that in addition to presentations, we can have
plenty of both formal and informal discussion and brainstorming sessions
at the conference about creating a more visible presence for Python in
education.

On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 13:57, Laura Creighton wrote:
> EuroPython is interested in an education track as well.  We're meeting
> in Gothenburg Sweden the week of June 9th, and we haven't made a
> formal announcement yet, but I already know we are interested.
> 
> Laura

-- 
Jeffrey Elkner <jeff@elkner.net>
Open Book Project <http://ibiblio.org/obp>


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Sat Sep 27 14:13:39 2003
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Sat Sep 27 14:44:30 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: PyCon 2004 Proposals for Presentations...
In-Reply-To: <1064683998.5922.11.camel@robeson>
Message-ID: <CGECIJPNNHIFAJKHOLMAOEAFIBAA.sholden@holdenweb.com>

As chairman of PyCon I'd just like to add to Jeff's remarks to underline
that we would be very happy to have a significant Edu SIG presence at
PyCon DC 2004. One of the reasons we try to keep the costs low is to
make it possible for the broadest a range of delegates to attend.

Although PyCon isn't an academic conference neither is it a commercial
one, and I would suggest you encourage students with no previous
experience of conferences (though not *just* those students, naturally)
to consider attending. The atmosphere is friendly and cooperative.

I would also be grateful to hear any suggestions about how we might
secure funds to assist students who might otherwise not be able to
attend due to financial constraints. In the past Andrew Kuchling has
used the earnings from the Python bookstore to subsidies places, but I'd
like to expand this if possible. We might expect such delegates to act
as gophers for a part of the time in return, but such duties would be
unlikely to be onerous.

regards
--
Steve Holden                                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming                http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/
Interview with GvR August 14, 2003       http://www.onlamp.com/python/


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey Elkner [mailto:jeff@elkner.net]
> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:33 PM
> To: Edu-sig
> Cc: Steve Holden
> Subject: PyCon 2004 Proposals for Presentations...
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> The message below was just sent to the Py-Con mailing list.  The
> deadline for presentation proposals is December 1.  If we
> would like to
> have a "Python in Education Track", all we need to do is begin
> submitting proposals and establish a proceedure through this list for
> proposal selection.
>
> There seemed to be significant interest when last I asked
> about this.  I
> will be submitting two proposals myself.  Who else is interested in
> working with me to plan for this?  Who is willing to do a
> presentation?
>
> --
> Jeffrey Elkner <jeff@elkner.net>
> Open Book Project <http://ibiblio.org/obp>
>
>
> > Want to share your expertise?  PyCon DC 2004 is looking for
> proposals
> to
> > fill the formal presentation tracks.
> >
> > PyCon DC 2003 had a broad range of presentations, from reports on
> > academic and commercial projects to tutorials and case
> studies, and we
> > hope to extend that range this year.  As long as the presentation is
> > interesting and potentially useful to the Python community,
> it will be
> > considered for inclusion in the program.
> >
> > The proposal deadline is December 1; the proposal submission system
> > should be up by mid-October.  Proposals should be 500-2000 words in
> text
> > (plain or reST) or HTML.  You may request either thirty or sixty
> minutes
> > for your timeslot.  Proposals will be accepted or rejected
> by January
> 1,
> > 2004.
> >
> > If you don't want to make a formal presentation, there will be a
> > significant amount of Open Space to allow for informal and
> > spur-of-the-moment presentations for which no formal submission is
> > required.  There will also be several Lightning Talk sessions (five
> > minutes or less).
> >
> >
> > PyCon is a community-oriented conference targeting developers (both
> those
> > using Python and those working on the Python project).  It gives you
> > opportunities to learn about significant advances in the Python
> > development community, to participate in a programming sprint with
> some
> > of the leading minds in the Open Source community, and to
> meet fellow
> > developers from around the world.  The organizers work to make the
> > conference affordable and accessible to all.
> >
> > DC 2004 will be held March 24-26, 2004 in Washington, D.C.  The
> keynote
> > speaker is Mitch Kapor of the Open Source Applications Foundation
> > (http://www.osafoundation.org/).  There will be a four-day
> development
> > sprint before the conference.
> >
> > We're looking for volunteers to help run PyCon.  If you're
> interested,
> > subscribe to
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers
> >
> > Don't miss any PyCon announcements!  Subscribe to
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-announce
> >
> > You can discuss PyCon with other interested people by subscribing to
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-interest
> >
> > The central resource for PyCon DC 2004 is
> > http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pycon-organizers mailing list
> > Pycon-organizers@mail.python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers
>
>
>
>



From ajsiegel at optonline.net  Sat Sep 27 16:06:06 2003
From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur)
Date: Sat Sep 27 16:06:33 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: PyCon 2004 Proposals for Presentations...
Message-ID: <000901c38532$ce0307f0$0c02a8c0@Arts>

Jeff writes:

>There seemed to be significant interest when last I asked about this.  I
>will be submitting two proposals myself.  Who else is interested in
>working with me to plan for this?  Who is willing to do a presentation?

As I had mentioned, I hope to do something on PyGeo.

The creation of PyGeo as an adventure in self-education? Maybe trying to
explore the concept of self-education itself - and Python, and Open Source
and Google.  What would it take to more actively help people to learn to
learn with these kinds of never-before-available kind of resources.

or

PyGeo, more simply, as something of potential interest to folks involved in/
interested in Python and Education?

Some combination, probably.

Right now I'm swamped trying to make ends meet - like many of us I'm sure.
But I have to believe there will be a break in the action that will allow me
to put together a proposal sometime between now and 12/1.

Not sure I'm the right personality type to help with planning.  What kind of
planning do you think is involved, beyond soliciting proposals?

For best effect, I think that the solicitation might be a little pro-active.
That is, actually contacting folks who have interesting stuff out there, and
encouraging them to propose. Rather than leaving it to a general
announcement.

Is that appropriate?

Art



From lac at strakt.com  Sun Sep 28 04:43:27 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun Sep 28 04:43:34 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] PyCon 2004 Proposals for Presentations... 
In-Reply-To: Message from Jeffrey Elkner <jeff@elkner.net> 
	of "Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:11:41 EDT." <1064686301.5922.40.camel@robeson> 
References: <1064683998.5922.11.camel@robeson>
	<200309271757.h8RHvih9024555@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<1064686301.5922.40.camel@robeson> 
Message-ID: <200309280843.h8S8hRh9027267@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

>Perhaps we can compare notes down the road to make our respective tasks
>easier?  I'm hoping that in addition to presentations, we can have
>plenty of both formal and informal discussion and brainstorming sessions
>at the conference about creating a more visible presence for Python in
>education.

This sounds great to me.  We will have lots of informal space for
EuroPython, which is being held at Chalmers University.  I'm trying to
find out how to get more educators to know about EuroPython and come.
Ideas?

The Open Book Project, by the way, sounds wonderful.

Laura

From jeff at elkner.net  Tue Sep 30 20:20:07 2003
From: jeff at elkner.net (Jeffrey Elkner)
Date: Tue Sep 30 20:20:12 2003
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: PyCon 2004 Proposals for Presentations...
In-Reply-To: <000901c38532$ce0307f0$0c02a8c0@Arts>
References: <000901c38532$ce0307f0$0c02a8c0@Arts>
Message-ID: <1064967607.5924.32.camel@robeson>

Hi All,

I just set up a Zwiki to help with planning for the Education Track at
PyCon 2004:

http://linus.yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us/PyCon2004/EduTrack/

Please feel encouraged to add to it.  I'm still a relative Zwiki newbie,
so any help in making it look nicer or work better would be *greatly*
appreciated.  And the wonderful about wiki's is you don't even have to
ask for permission, just do it!


On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 16:06, Arthur wrote:
> Jeff writes:
> 
> >There seemed to be significant interest when last I asked about this.  I
> >will be submitting two proposals myself.  Who else is interested in
> >working with me to plan for this?  Who is willing to do a presentation?
> 
> As I had mentioned, I hope to do something on PyGeo.

> The creation of PyGeo as an adventure in self-education? Maybe trying to
> explore the concept of self-education itself - and Python, and Open Source
> and Google.  What would it take to more actively help people to learn to
> learn with these kinds of never-before-available kind of resources.
> 
> or
> 
> PyGeo, more simply, as something of potential interest to folks involved in/
> interested in Python and Education?
> 
> Some combination, probably.

Sounds great.  Of the many things I love about Python, the way that it
empowers educators to create their own tools (or get their students to
do it for them ;-) is among the top.


> Right now I'm swamped trying to make ends meet - like many of us I'm sure.
> But I have to believe there will be a break in the action that will allow me
> to put together a proposal sometime between now and 12/1.

I already added you to:

http://linus.yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us/PyCon2004/EduTrack/PresentationProposals

(sorry of the hideously long URL)  If you get a moment, could you fill
in a few more details?  Thanks!

> Not sure I'm the right personality type to help with planning.  What kind of
> planning do you think is involved, beyond soliciting proposals?
> 
> For best effect, I think that the solicitation might be a little pro-active.
> That is, actually contacting folks who have interesting stuff out there, and
> encouraging them to propose. Rather than leaving it to a general
> announcement.
> 
> Is that appropriate?

Certainly.


-- 
Jeffrey Elkner <jeff@elkner.net>
Open Book Project <http://ibiblio.org/obp>