[Edu-sig] Re: PEPTALK: path sanity and newbie mental

[Jason Cunliffe]

Art,
thanks very much for your feedback on jabber setup. I'll look into it some
more.
I suspect yesterday I unpacked jabber and then just double clicked on
setup.py, confusing it with setup.exe behavior.
It flashed a python dos window at me too quickly to read, but did not
complain.

- What is the difference from double-clicking setup.py compared to running
"python setup.py install" ?

But jabber installation was only a current example.
My point is more general, and more serious, as anticipated by your note
about IDLE's problems with install and then the next comment:
In fact I realize Everything I said applies with or without idle. They are
python shell issues which defy common sense. I know I am not really getting
it and have not been for years in this respect with Python. So am
guessing/hoping that I am not alone. I used to use PythonWin, and it had a
built-in menu to facilitate module installation and path setting. I may go
back to that, but I rather get to the heart of the problem.

> As to where to save files, etc and etc.  - you are asking for more
structure
> than Python chooses to impose on you.  Where you will, is fine. Especially
> as Python is truly cross-platofrm, and what would make sense for Windows
> probably does not make sense for other platforms.

No. I am not asking for Python to impose structure on me. Of course I want
to be able to put stuff wherever I damn well feel like. AND understand how
to access those, swap, dice and slice in a consistent fashion. In fact,
putting stuff where I want to is likely what has got me into this trouble in
the first place ;-)

And IF python were truly cross-platform it would strive for a consistent
solution which also makes good sense for Windows.
In practice, I have the impression that most Python docs and the official
ones are notably *nix oriented.

As I understand it, the newer setup.py is very valuable because often it
does work beautifully first time. But also in a magic, dumbing down sort of
turnkey way. Often I don't mind. But the Python Way is know and control
openly.

In my experience installing packages it is never clear what has happened to
paths, nor what to do to move them.
This is especially problematic when returning to install a newer version and
find conflicts like an original folder named, for example, 'jabber' and then
later might find it unpacks to 'jabber-0.7-alpha'.

- How to manage those?
- Should one search the entire file system for example to find python jabber
modules?
- How to know where the module has been added - in Windows registry, or
autoexec.bat or somewhere else. ?
- Why not have simple editable central config file strategy for true
cross-platform Python module management?

Granted, the windows registry is necessary for basic recognition of python
so that actions like "python setup.py install" will work.
But why not keep everything else under Python's wing?

Even if all authors developed perfect packages, and all users installed them
100% per instructions, that still would not address the core issues which
all users need to apply for their own files, folders and modules and setting
paths for them.

thanks
Jason