From ajsiegel@optonline.net Fri Aug 1 17:57:14 2003 From: ajsiegel@optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:57:14 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: [Visualpython-users] Has anyone gotten VPython working with Python 2.3 (Windows version) ?? References: <3F2A880C.4060802@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00c501c3584d$f8ea8130$0c02a8c0@Arts> I've made a self installing executable for Windows of both Numeric and Vpython available at http://home.netcom.com/~ajs/download.html You need both. Should work, although I just put it together and haven't tested thoroughly. Art ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Dickenson" To: Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:32 AM Subject: [Visualpython-users] Has anyone gotten VPython working with Python 2.3 (Windows version) ?? > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > _______________________________________________ > Visualpython-users mailing list > Visualpython-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users From ajsiegel@optonline.net Fri Aug 1 18:06:12 2003 From: ajsiegel@optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:06:12 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Has anyone gotten VPython working with Python 2.3 Message-ID: <00d701c3584f$3688edf0$0c02a8c0@Arts> >I've made a self installing executable for Windows of both Numeric and >Vpython available at http://home.netcom.com/~ajs/download.html BTW, Nice to be able to now run VPython (and PyGeo) scripts using the now standard IDLE. Art From d.skaggs@morehead-st.edu Fri Aug 1 20:27:36 2003 From: d.skaggs@morehead-st.edu (R Duane Skaggs) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:27:36 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Multiple Python installs References: Message-ID: <3F2ABF28.3040100@morehead-st.edu> Hi, We have been using Python and VPython in our intro programming classes for one year now, with great success. We also use Python in some of our more advanced classes, where I plan to discuss the differences between 2.2 and 2.3 (such as the C3 Method Resolution Order). Anyway, what problems can be anticipated with having multiple installs on the same box? I hadn't encountered any in the short time I've been playing with 2.3, but I saw in a recent post (sorry, I forget who mentioned it!) that there are some problems if you do the default installs. thanks, duane -- R. Duane Skaggs, Technology Coordinator Department of Mathematics and Computer Science 241A Lappin Hall Morehead State University Morehead, KY USA 40351 _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig This message scanned by RAV anti-virus. From guido@python.net Fri Aug 1 20:40:31 2003 From: guido@python.net (Guido van Rossum) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:40:31 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Multiple Python installs In-Reply-To: <3F2ABF28.3040100@morehead-st.edu>; from d.skaggs@morehead-st.edu on Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 03:27:36PM -0400 References: <3F2ABF28.3040100@morehead-st.edu> Message-ID: <20030801154031.B8608@starship.python.net> > Anyway, what problems can be anticipated with > having multiple installs on the same box? On Unix, the only thing is that you have to decide which interpreter you want to make the *default* -- that's the one you call "python". You can always explicitly use "python2.2" or "python2.3". If you build and install from source, the last "make install" you do becomes the default, unless you use "make altinstall". It's easy to fix afterward by using a hard link. On Windows, similarly the only problem I know of is that if you double-click a Python script or otherwise run it, the one you installed last will install itself in the registry as the default Python. But through the Start menu or by using explicit paths (e.g. C:\python\python23.exe) you can always force the right interpreter. (There may be problems I'm not aware of with using Win32all's COM support; it's probably similar though, the last one installed wins.) --Guido van Rossum From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Aug 4 04:28:56 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Aug 4 03:29:13 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] minimal pyopengl Message-ID: <002901c35a5a$11a75000$0c02a8c0@Arts> having wanted to get a bit into pygame having converted to Python23 having some background with and continuing interest in PyOpenGL knowing that pygame supported PyOpenGL there not being a Python23 PyOpenGL distribution as of yet there being a problem building PyOpenGL with Python23, the process bombing out when dealing with togl, the OpenGL context for tkinter which has been a rather temperamental component of PyOpenGL from its beginnings. Needing to prune togl out of the build. And having kept pruning, to get to the more fundamental components of what has become a large, rather complex distribution. I end up with a Minimal PyOpenGL distribution. It has been tested only under Windows, where it succesfully runs the wxPython PyOpenGL demo, the pygame PyOpenGL demo, and the nehe tutorial code available for pygame. The self-installing Windows executable is 175k, versus approx 2.5m for the full Python22 distro. There is also a slightly larger source distro, which should work under Linux - but having done it yet, and probably won't get around to testing it for a few weeks. What there is is avaiable at http://home.ix.netcom.com/~ajs/download/ For anyone who might find it useful. ARt From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Aug 4 04:46:29 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Aug 4 03:46:45 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: minimal pyopengl Message-ID: <003a01c35a5c$8457e630$0c02a8c0@Arts> BTW, Numeric comes into play in the PyOpenGL build, as an option. The aforementioned minimal PyOpenGL binary distro was built against my tree which included Numeric. I don't know whether this is a runtime or build time option. So Numeric might be required to run the binary distro for Windows that I built. Or it may not be. At any rate: As previously posted here, a binary distro of Numeric, for Windows and Python23 is also available at http://home.ix.netcom.com/~ajs/download/ Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Aug 5 11:50:55 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Aug 5 10:51:13 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] More stuff for pre-complied for Windows folks Message-ID: <001601c35b60$f9fad820$0c02a8c0@Arts> Doing my new disuils trick, the recent mission to make some very Python interesting 3d/educational modules available for Python23 to Windows users without the avaialability of a build environment, or an inclination to take the time. Once built for my own purposes, the marginal effort of making it available to others being neglible. Both the following modules are by: Matthias Baas (baas@ira.uka.de) Their capabilities, when used with pygame and pyopengl are shown particularly well in the tutorial code at http://i31www.ira.uka.de/~baas/pyode/tut3.html Self-installing Windows executables are avaiable at: http://home.ix.netcom.com/~ajs/download/ py-ODE....exe is the Python Open Dynamics Engine Wrapper cgkit-1...exe is the Python Computer Graphics Kit Python Open Dynamics Engine Wrapper http://i31www.ira.uka.de/~baas/pyode/ """ The Open Dynamics Engine (ODE) is a free software library for the simulation of Rigid Body Dynamics. You'll find the library at http://opende.sourceforge.net. pyODE is a Python wrapper module that enables you to use ODE from within Python programs. """ AND The Python Computer Graphics Kit http://cgkit.sourceforge.net/ The Python Computer Graphics Kit is a collection of Python modules that contain the basic types and functions to be able to create 3D computer graphics images. The kit mainly focuses on Pixar's RenderMan interface, but some modules can also be used for OpenGL programs or non-RenderMan compliant renderers like POV-Ray, for example. """ From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Aug 5 17:48:40 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Aug 5 19:48:50 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) In-Reply-To: <003a01c35a5c$8457e630$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030805162040.033070f8@pop.ptld.qwest.net> Thanks Arthur, this is quite useful. I've too now have the Pygame and wxPython demos that use PyOpenGL working (except wxGLCanvas) -- in Python 2.3. This lack of a PyOpenGL for Python 2.3 came up at the PORPIG meeting last night (from others besides me), so I'll forward this to your download site to the PORPIG mailing list as well. And it's great to have PyGeo working again too. Love those 3d bezier curves. Kirby FYI PORPIG: check edu-sig posts below to see what Arthur has made available to Windows users: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2003-August/003030.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2003-August/003031.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2003-August/003032.html Arthur's downloadable install files are here: http://home.ix.netcom.com/~ajs/download/ From DanSV at aol.com Tue Aug 5 21:27:22 2003 From: DanSV at aol.com (DanSV@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 5 20:27:58 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Speed Message-ID: <74625D7F.2EBD52FD.0000E214@aol.com> I am trying to pipe input/output(out&error) from a subprogram to a textbox. I am using the wxWindows for the piping(wxProcess), and onIdle in wxFrame for monitoring the process. I then add text to the wxStyledTextControl I am using for the prompt. This fails to catch all of the output of the program. If there is a lot of output, or it is sent too quickly, it will be missed. This sync problem becomes even worse if I attempt to use threads instead of the onIdle method. What should I do? Try a different piping method? Some alternative to onIdle? Drop python and move to c++?(Shudder) Thanks, Daniel From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Aug 6 09:07:26 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Aug 6 08:07:41 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030805162040.033070f8@pop.ptld.qwest.net> Message-ID: <001e01c35c13$4e8b4570$0c02a8c0@Arts> Glad you found it useful. Just be aware that it is a pared down distro of pyopengl - includes GL, GLU, GLUT and GLE, but lacks the OpenGL1.2 extensions, demos and docs. I like small footprint stuff - especially if it's going under under site-packages. The Numeric distro takes the tack which I think is correct for Windows - the functional compiled stuff is library, and under site-packages, and is one distro; the docs and demos are better placed optionally by the user on his hard-drive, and therefore need to be a separate distro. This doesn't come up so much on Linux, because generally the source distro goes to one's home directory and "setup.py install" puts what is needed as "library" to site-packages, and allowing docs and demos to remain put, and available, "at home". There would be much more flexibility in doing a single Windows based install using disutils if one knew win32all was installed. Then one can have icons placed, and effect "program files", etc. At that point, disutils becomes much closer to be an full Windows install utility. ActiveWare has made the decision to include win32all in their Windows distro. I wonder what are the downsides of doing the same for the python.org distro? Art ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Urner" To: "Arthur" ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 7:48 PM Subject: Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) > > > Thanks Arthur, this is quite useful. > > I've too now have the Pygame and wxPython demos that use PyOpenGL > working (except wxGLCanvas) -- in Python 2.3. > > This lack of a PyOpenGL for Python 2.3 came up at the PORPIG meeting > last night (from others besides me), so I'll forward this to your > download site to the PORPIG mailing list as well. > > And it's great to have PyGeo working again too. Love those 3d bezier > curves. > > Kirby > > FYI PORPIG: check edu-sig posts below to see what Arthur has made > available to Windows users: > > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2003-August/003030.html > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2003-August/003031.html > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2003-August/003032.html > > Arthur's downloadable install files are here: > http://home.ix.netcom.com/~ajs/download/ > > > > From gritsch at iue.tuwien.ac.at Wed Aug 6 15:23:29 2003 From: gritsch at iue.tuwien.ac.at (gritsch@iue.tuwien.ac.at) Date: Wed Aug 6 08:23:40 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) In-Reply-To: <001e01c35c13$4e8b4570$0c02a8c0@Arts> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030805162040.033070f8@pop.ptld.qwest.net> <001e01c35c13$4e8b4570$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: <1060172609.3f30f34122e90@l01.iue.tuwien.ac.at> Quoting Arthur : > Glad you found it useful. > > Just be aware that it is a pared down distro of pyopengl - includes GL, > GLU, > GLUT and GLE, but lacks the OpenGL1.2 extensions, demos and docs. > > I like small footprint stuff - especially if it's going under under > site-packages. > > > > The Numeric distro takes the tack which I think is correct for Windows - > the > functional compiled stuff is library, and under site-packages, and is one > distro; the docs and demos are better placed optionally by the user on his > hard-drive, and therefore need to be a separate distro. This doesn't come > up so much on Linux, because generally the source distro goes to one's home > directory and "setup.py install" puts what is needed as "library" to > site-packages, and allowing docs and demos to remain put, and available, > "at > home". > > There would be much more flexibility in doing a single Windows based > install > using disutils if one knew win32all was installed. Then one can have icons > placed, and effect "program files", etc. At that point, disutils becomes > much closer to be an full Windows install utility. > > ActiveWare has made the decision to include win32all in their Windows > distro. I wonder what are the downsides of doing the same for the > python.org distro? Maybe others like small footprint too and don't include optional packages into the core distro ;) Markus From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Aug 6 09:37:35 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Aug 6 08:37:49 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030805162040.033070f8@pop.ptld.qwest.net> <001e01c35c13$4e8b4570$0c02a8c0@Arts> <1060172609.3f30f34122e90@l01.iue.tuwien.ac.at> Message-ID: <002801c35c17$84043fa0$0c02a8c0@Arts> > Maybe others like small footprint too and don't include optional packages into > the core distro ;) > > Markus Yeah, but.... >From a Windows head point of view, what's in Windows\System32 as compiled code is run-time, back-end stuff and nothing to worry one's head about. What's off of \Program Files is user stuff, and where one's attention is. So I guess my point is not so much small footprint vs. big. Its back-end and front-end. On Windows - only - one seems forced somewhat to put back-end and front-end stuff under site-packages. And its a long and windy road to \python23\lib\site-packages\pygeo\demos - especially when I can't place a Start menu path to it (and don't really feel that is where it belongs in the first place). So I am pointing to what I think is a real problem. The win32all solution is the only one I can think of. There well may be others. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Aug 6 10:25:06 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Aug 6 09:25:28 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030805162040.033070f8@pop.ptld.qwest.net> Message-ID: <005e01c35c1e$29bb7070$0c02a8c0@Arts> > I've too now have the Pygame and wxPython demos that use PyOpenGL > working (except wxGLCanvas) -- in Python 2.3. The wxGLCanvas seems to not run directly, but does run OK if run from demo.py. I don't think this has anything to do with pyopengl. If you conclude otherwise, I'd be interested. >From things you mentioned recently, you might be interested in: http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/IntegratingPyGame There is some code that allows the integration of wxPython and pygame. The demo at: http://www.geocities.com/holtonemail/demo1screenshot.html happens to use pyode, which is the Python wrapper to the Open Dynamics Engine (ODE). ODE is powerful stuff, written by someone who was the architect of one of the major commerical libraries of the kind by a company called MathEngine. The wrapper pyd for PyODE is also available at my download site, as previously mentioned There the Windows compilation was a little less then trivial (for me), since I had to compile ODE itself first. Anyway, I encourage you to take it for a spin. I have not done so yet, but PyODE should work wonderfully with VPython as well as with pyopengl as the rendering engine. All this is converging into to a *quite* interesting toolset, IMO. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Aug 6 10:30:33 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Aug 6 09:30:47 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) Message-ID: <006801c35c1e$ea499150$0c02a8c0@Arts> I wrote - >...little less then trivial (for me) Well, most things are less then trivial, for me. Someone else might have found it *more* than trivial ;). Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Aug 6 11:28:53 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Aug 6 10:30:10 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) Message-ID: <00a001c35c27$10539960$0c02a8c0@Arts> > >Maybe others like small footprint too and don't include optional >>packages into the core distro ;) > > Markus >Yeah, but.... Or perhaps something small can be taken from win32all, or written as a platform specific extension to disutils. Taking up the cause of Windows users, and those trying to reach Windows users, is not a very sexy position to be in in an Open Source community. And I couldn't have much to say until I understood disutils well enough. Now, I think I can say without the fear that I am missing something fundamental (who knows), that disutils - having come along way quickly - still does not address some fundamental issues. And I am not sure how it can ever address both Windows and non-Windows standards and expectations without some added functionality that specifically addresses some of the quirks of the Windows platform and its user base. And it happens that with win32all installed, I think all fundamentals can be met. What more minimal code might be sufficient .... not my job, though I would try to help if I could. Art From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Wed Aug 6 22:02:33 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Wed Aug 6 21:00:41 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) References: <00a001c35c27$10539960$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: <000f01c35c7f$95c7b100$6401a8c0@vaio> Art Just to commend for persevering valiantly with PyGeo and these Win32 distros. It may be unfashionable, but your work is a great service to Geometery and Python lovers.. Thank you - Jason From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Wed Aug 6 22:34:48 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Wed Aug 6 21:32:58 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Summer Fruits - Proce55ing & PyBot Message-ID: <001501c35c84$1779c2c0$6401a8c0@vaio> Some summer fruits you may enjoy... 1. A cool MIT alternative to Flash using Java. An obvious candidate for Jython. "Processing" by Ben Fry and Casey Reas http://www.proce55ing.net/ "Processing is a context for exploring the emerging conceptual space enabled by electronic media. It is an environment for learning the fundamentals of computer programming within the context of the electronic arts and it is an electronic sketchbook for developing ideas. The software is currently in a prerelease stage, but bug fixes are being made as we head toward a more complete "1.0" release. Processing will be free to download and available for Mac, PC, and Linux." 2. PyBot ?? I see there is an amazing new birth in hobbyist electronics based on programmable STAMP devices. Great to see an alternative to LEGO Mindstorms that encourages people to whip out breadboards and soldering irons. The cool thing is there is new lots of good information and tools [hard and soft] to support this kind of activity. Mainstream books stores carry affordable $25 range books. [The local mediocre Barnes and Noble in Brooklyn is crude litmus test]. The first were just battlebots. But now much more varied fare - more emersed in real world interfacing. The coolest one I saw today is "Junkbots". So next time you see a dead calculator, phone, TV/VCR appliance give it a budding junkbot builder. Kids please DO try this at home! STAMP seems to be based on BASIC, but here are others, notably Parallax who offer BASIC/Java/Assembly interface. So naturally I am wondering with PyGame, Jython etc, how near/far is Python today to BotDom ?? KITS & ROBOTICS http://www.parallax.com/ http://www.kitsusa.us/store/index.cfm?frm=prod-view&scid=46 BOOKS The Robot Builders Bonanza [2000] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0071362967/qid=1060218185/sr=1 -1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2698402-8575801?v=glance&s=books JunkBots, Bugbots, and Bots on Wheels: Building Simple Robots With BEAM Technology [2002] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0072226013/103-2698402-8575801 ?v=glance#product-details Programming and Customizing the Basic Stamp [2001] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0071371923/103-2698402-8575801 ?vi=glance OTHER BOOKS.. Hidden Order: How Adaptation Builds Complexity [1995] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201442302/qid=1060218293/sr=2-2/ref= sr_2_2/103-2698402-8575801#product-details Where Mathematics Comes From: How the Embodied Mind Brings Mathematics into Being [2001] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465037712/qid=1060218228/sr=1 -1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2698402-8575801?v=glance&s=books - Jason From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Wed Aug 6 22:48:33 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Wed Aug 6 21:46:44 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Summer Fruits - Proce55ing & PyBot References: <001501c35c84$1779c2c0$6401a8c0@vaio> Message-ID: <000901c35c86$0376db80$6401a8c0@vaio> http://www.proce55ing.net/learning/index.html From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 00:06:08 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Wed Aug 6 23:04:19 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Summer Fruits - Proce55ing & PyBot References: <001501c35c84$1779c2c0$6401a8c0@vaio> <000901c35c86$0376db80$6401a8c0@vaio> Message-ID: <000b01c35c90$d987af60$6401a8c0@vaio> .. and I forgot to include BasicX-24 or BX-24 wiht the other robot/stamp kits http://www.basicx.com/ Someone has ben using these already with Processing to make an etch-a-sketch interface and more http://people.interaction-ivrea.it/d.lu/physical/ From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Aug 7 00:50:14 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Aug 6 23:50:59 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) References: <00a001c35c27$10539960$0c02a8c0@Arts> <000f01c35c7f$95c7b100$6401a8c0@vaio> Message-ID: <000701c35c97$03344480$0c02a8c0@Arts> Thanks. I needed that. Art ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Cunliffe" To: Cc: "Arthur" Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 9:02 PM Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Re: PyOpenGL etc. in Python 2.3 (Windows) > Art > > Just to commend for persevering valiantly with PyGeo and these Win32 > distros. It may be unfashionable, but your work is a great service to > Geometery and Python lovers.. > > Thank you > - Jason > From rmangaliag at slu.edu.ph Thu Aug 7 15:59:11 2003 From: rmangaliag at slu.edu.ph (rmangaliag@slu.edu.ph) Date: Thu Aug 7 02:25:07 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] computer courses to math majors... Message-ID: <1060239551.3f31f8bf64064@mbox.slu.edu.ph> i've been tasked by my department head (computer application department) to identify computer subjects that can be given to math majors (bachelor's degree) in our small university... we are currently in a transition phase (because of the change in the curriculum... these are my thoughts... comp 101 -- basic computer concepts/information technology (this is an intro to computers with wordprocessing and basic spreadsheet) comp 102 -- computer programming I (finally, i was able to convince my department head to "embrace" python) comp 103 -- computer programming II (what do you think about this??? -- i'm thinking of including vpython and/or pygeo here...) can you comment on these (esp. comp 102 and 103)?? and can you please give me some resources/links where i can pattern the syllabus of the said subjects??? thanks... ali ps... we can ask for an inclusion of another math/computer subject (possibly comp 104)... what other math/python topics can i include??? ------------------------------------------------- Email Service Provided by SLU-Net Saint Louis University ( http://www.slu.edu.ph ) ------------------------------------------------- From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Aug 7 10:17:14 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Aug 7 09:21:58 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: computer courses to math majors Message-ID: <000001c35ce6$dd3f1c00$0c02a8c0@Arts> ali writes - >comp 103 -- computer programming II >(what do you think about this??? -- i'm thinking of including vpython >and/or pygeo here...) >can you comment on these (esp. comp 102 and 103)?? I think the pygeo idea is a decent one ;) Truly, if there is anything I can do to help make that a reality, please let me know. The documentation for pygeo is a problem. Mostly because I don't really understand who I should be writing it for, and my efforts keeping getting sidetracked on that account. In the context of a real world situation - if you help me understand what assumptions I can make about your students background - it might get me off the dime, a bit. comp 103: so I don't need to worry about presenting basic Python concpets as part of my docs. That kind of thing. Not a curriculum, certainly. But documentation that might at least "speak to" your students , a bit. Math students studying programming is my ideal audience, I would think. I would hope they would interested in taking apart the code a bit, and even maybe putting it back together - better. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Aug 8 13:09:20 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Aug 8 12:09:32 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] fwd: [Distutils] custom install directory with bdist_wininst Message-ID: <000f01c35dc7$6d323d70$0c02a8c0@Arts> PythonLabs, via Jeremy, seems to be on the case as to bdist_wininst. His wish list is actually much more modest than mine. He seems to only hope to be able to do a full distro off of the python tree. I (as the distributor) want to be able to identify what are libaries, and go to site-packages, and what are front-facing files (demos and docs, e.g.) and go to a configurable directory not necessarily on the python tree. *And* icons and start menu possibilites. The responses on the disutils list to Jeremy's feature inquiry were not very encouraging. He was basically advised to go with a full featured Windows installer. Which at least makes me feel better about coming to the same conclusion as to a PyGeo distribution - that I should not feel shamed in resorting to a third party installer as the only reasonable solution, at this stage of the game, at least. There in fact being free Windows installers available, with modest learning curves. To some extent, the temptation of bdist_wininst is the biggest problem of bdist_wininst - is a possible unhappy conclusion. Art Jeremy Hylton jeremy at zope.com Mon Jun 30 20:12:12 EDT 2003 I'd like to give the user control over where the files get installed. It looks like distutils installs into site-packages by default, and there's no way to override it. The UI shows the destination directory in a box that looks like it should be editable, but it isn't. If you run setup.py install, you can pass a --home that affects where files are installed. I'm looking for something similar on Windows. Jeremy From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Aug 9 19:51:32 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Aug 9 18:51:48 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Close, but no cigar Message-ID: <000801c35ec8$c7e50110$0c02a8c0@Arts> Bruce Sherwood has released a new VPython for Python23. IDLE has always been the editor which is "supported" by Bruce for the purposes of his physics curriculum, so the integration of IDLEdev into IDLE for Python23 has provided an opportunity for the simplication of the VPython distribution on Windows. But despite the fact he is and has been content to have the vpython docs and demos reside under ...site-packages\visual, he still cannot use disutils for his Windows distribution. He takes advantage of the new ability to add the VPython help files as an *additional* resource to the IDLE help menu. Which is exactly why he is content to have the docs "buried" in ..\site-packages\visual\docs. The problem is that the config-main.def file which needs to be touched to accomplish this is in ../idlelib, not off the site-packages tree. So out of reach of bdist_wininst. The other customization he chooses to make is a desktop icon which has ..\sitepackages\vpython\demos as its "start-in" directory. Which is why he is content to have the vpython demos under ''\site-packages\visual\demos directory. But he can only do this with disutils if win32all is known to be installed. An assumption that Bruce cannot reasonably make. My criticism of the distribution (besides my previously stated discomfort about how Numeric is handled) is the fact that the icon placed on the desk-top is simply called "IDLE for Python" - no indication of it having been placed there by VPython, custom to its needs (as to the "start-in" directory. For a PyGeo distro (which relies on VPython), for example, it would be perfectly reasonable to expect that I would add reference to the PyGeo help files in the IDLE config files, rather than replace the reference to the VPython help files. It is not reasonable to expect me to live with a desktop icon to the one and only IDLE that points to the VPython demos as its start-in file. And expect the PyGeo user to fend for himself. But nor am I comfortable, or have any particular reason, to want to overwrite a VPython shortcut to IDLE. The VPython placed shortcut should be clearly named so that it is understood it is placed on the desktop by VPython, and the approproate icon to hit when firing up to work on VPython. And I can do the same as to PyGeo. I can't believe there is any technical issue involved, especially as it currently assumed we are both working with full-blown Windows installers. Bruce, Be reasonable on this. Please. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Aug 9 20:24:48 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Aug 9 19:25:03 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Close, but no cigar Message-ID: <001301c35ecd$6dd61880$0c02a8c0@Arts> Also as to the VPython distro: Guido has unambigiously stated a strong preference that IDLE start in interactive mode. (He can correct me if I am wrong). >From my point of view, as the stated preference of the Developer of IDLE (not the BDFL) , I would and will respect that preference. Bruce simply does not see any significance to the interactive prompt. Incredibly. He states so repeatedly. The VPython distro - despite, I think, Bruce knowing full well Guido 's preference - imposes his own preference on the One And Only IDLE, over Guido's. So after the VPython install, the One and Only IDLE starts up as a text editor. And will do so forever for any user who does not understand the fact that there is an ability to reset the default back to where it started - Interactive Mode. In other words, precisely the user for whom Guido, it seems to me, feels it important that the Interactive Mode be default. Guido wrote the foundation code. David Scherer, Kurt Kaiser , and others made significant contributions to its development. Bruce - always, it seem to me, for good reason - pisses me off. Art From basherwo at unity.ncsu.edu Sat Aug 9 20:45:13 2003 From: basherwo at unity.ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood) Date: Sat Aug 9 19:45:22 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: [Visualpython-users] Close, but no cigar In-Reply-To: <000801c35ec8$c7e50110$0c02a8c0@Arts> References: <000801c35ec8$c7e50110$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: <3F358789.3060304@unity.ncsu.edu> I'd be happy to change the name of the desktop icon. It could still be called "IDLE for VPython" instead of "IDLE for Python". Would that be preferable? I thought it important to have a desktop icon, because the "IDLE (Python GUI)" menu item is buried so very deeply in the Start menu. Where it should start isn't so clear; "IDLE (Python GUI)" starts in C:\Python23, which is moderately inappropriate too. A more neutral starting point would be My Documents. But as you say, labeling it for VPython would seem to be better than what I did. I'm not ecstatic about completely overwriting config-main.def. It would be better for the VPython installer to edit that file, and for PyGeo also to edit that file (e.g. adding an entry for the PyGeo help). Does anyone know how to do this kind of thing in the context of an installer? (I'm using Inno Setup.) I did think I'd covered the problems by prominently stating what the installer does, and inviting sophisticated users to make adjustments if they wish. I'm not sure I understand the distutils issues you're raising. Are you saying that I should be using distutils, or are you saying that you understand why I can't use this mechanism, but wish it were possible? Bruce Sherwood Arthur wrote: > Bruce Sherwood has released a new VPython for Python23. IDLE has always > been the editor which is "supported" by Bruce for the purposes of his > physics curriculum, so the integration of IDLEdev into IDLE for Python23 has > provided an opportunity for the simplication of the VPython distribution on > Windows. > > But despite the fact he is and has been content to have the vpython docs and > demos reside under ...site-packages\visual, he still cannot use disutils for > his Windows distribution. > > He takes advantage of the new ability to add the VPython help files as an > *additional* resource to the IDLE help menu. Which is exactly why he is > content to have the docs "buried" in ..\site-packages\visual\docs. > > The problem is that the config-main.def file which needs to be touched to > accomplish this is in ../idlelib, not off the site-packages tree. So out of > reach of bdist_wininst. > > The other customization he chooses to make is a desktop icon which has > ..\sitepackages\vpython\demos as its "start-in" directory. Which is why he > is content to have the vpython demos under ''\site-packages\visual\demos > directory. > > But he can only do this with disutils if win32all is known to be installed. > An assumption that Bruce cannot reasonably make. > > My criticism of the distribution (besides my previously stated discomfort > about how Numeric is handled) is the fact that the icon placed on the > desk-top is simply called "IDLE for Python" - no indication of it having > been placed there by VPython, custom to its needs (as to the "start-in" > directory. > > For a PyGeo distro (which relies on VPython), for example, it would be > perfectly reasonable to expect that I would add reference to the PyGeo help > files in the IDLE config files, rather than replace the reference to the > VPython help files. > > It is not reasonable to expect me to live with a desktop icon to the one and > only IDLE that points to the VPython demos as its start-in file. And expect > the PyGeo user to fend for himself. But nor am I comfortable, or have any > particular reason, to want to overwrite a VPython shortcut to IDLE. > > The VPython placed shortcut should be clearly named so that it is understood > it is placed on the desktop by VPython, and the approproate icon to hit when > firing up to work on VPython. > > And I can do the same as to PyGeo. > > I can't believe there is any technical issue involved, especially as it > currently assumed we are both working with full-blown Windows installers. > > Bruce, > > Be reasonable on this. > > Please. > > Art > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > _______________________________________________ > Visualpython-users mailing list > Visualpython-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Aug 9 21:03:06 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Aug 9 20:03:32 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: [Visualpython-users] Close, but no cigar References: <000801c35ec8$c7e50110$0c02a8c0@Arts> <3F358789.3060304@unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <002001c35ed2$c7ac5950$0c02a8c0@Arts> Bruce - > I'm not sure I understand the distutils issues you're raising. Are you > saying that I should be using distutils, or are you saying that you > understand why I can't use this mechanism, but wish it were possible? I am agreeing that in fact you have little choice but to go beyond disutils to accomplish the reasonable things you want to accomplish (and some of the unreasonable things, as well ;). I am expressing frustration on that point, because the things that disutils *can't* do for you seem relatively minor, but - I agree with you - are important for adequately addressing the reasonable needs of your user base. And expressing some impotence in the face of the situation - because I am not adequately configured to do much more than point to the issue. Not solve it. That can be taken as unreasonable and unnecessary assault on the people who are making concrete contributions, in code, to building a distribution system for python modules and applications. Or, as I intend it, my own best effort to contribute to the effort by bringing to the fore some use case issues. As to my other rant - the default start-up mode for IDLE. What can I say. Perhaps I shouldn't be nasty. But you seem hard to get through to. You are effecting all users for all purposes by imposing your preference on IDLE on anyone who happens to download VPython for any reason. It amazes me that you don't seem to see that it is your responsibility to instruct your users on how to change the default on their machines to the preferences you prefer. Not impose your preferences over that of the Developer of IDLE, and for all people who download software -which you didn't write, own or control (visual or IDLE) - from your site. Sorry. Seems to me you should. Art From basherwo at unity.ncsu.edu Sat Aug 9 21:11:58 2003 From: basherwo at unity.ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood) Date: Sat Aug 9 20:12:16 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: [Visualpython-users] re: Close, but no cigar In-Reply-To: <001301c35ecd$6dd61880$0c02a8c0@Arts> References: <001301c35ecd$6dd61880$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: <3F358DCE.3040106@unity.ncsu.edu> You are correct that Guido wants the default to be that IDLE start in the shell, not in an edit window, and he is not comfortable with the autosave feature, but IDLE does have features for changing these behaviors, both of which come from the VPython project and were innovations implemented by Dave Scherer. This is why the VPython installer instructions say very explicitly that these defaults are reversed by this installer, and alerts users to this. There was some discussion during the long idlefork development that the way to customize IDLE could include changing config-main.def, which was to be considered a legitimate move. That's how I knew how to achieve this effect. For a huge number of users of VPython known to me (hundreds of students) it is important that IDLE start in an edit window and do autosaves. I've tried in various forums to explain what data these decisions are based on, and I won't repeat all of that here. I've prominently documented in the installer instructions what the situation is, and it is easy for a user to change it (and I'm open to improved wording of this). It makes sense to put a minor burden on the more sophisticated user rather than on the less sophisticated user (the latter alternative would be to start in the shell and disable autosave, but explain in the installer how to change this; abundant experience with users new to Python shows that the fewer the instructions the better, by a lot). By the way, all users will see the shell, because that's what the output window is. Arthur, I do appreciate your writing up your concerns. I think you're right in your previous note to say that the desktop icon should be "IDLE for VPython" as it was when using the predecessor to the new IDLE, or some such, and I'll be happy to change it. I was a bit wary of this name because it could perhaps be misconstrued as claiming all of the new IDLE as a product of the VPython effort, which it is only in part. Maybe you or someone can come up with a better icon name (something like "IDLE - VPython demos", although you have to do an Open to get a demo). I'll wait a few days to see what suggestions crop up. Thanks. Bruce Sherwood Arthur wrote: > Also as to the VPython distro: > > Guido has unambigiously stated a strong preference that IDLE start in > interactive mode. (He can correct me if I am wrong). > > From my point of view, as the stated preference of the Developer of IDLE > (not the BDFL) , I would and will respect that preference. > > Bruce simply does not see any significance to the interactive prompt. > > Incredibly. He states so repeatedly. > > The VPython distro - despite, I think, Bruce knowing full well Guido 's > preference - imposes his own preference on the One And Only IDLE, over > Guido's. > > So after the VPython install, the One and Only IDLE starts up as a text > editor. And will do so forever for any user who does not understand the > fact that there is an ability to reset the default back to where it > started - Interactive Mode. In other words, precisely the user for whom > Guido, it seems to me, feels it important that the Interactive Mode be > default. > > Guido wrote the foundation code. David Scherer, Kurt Kaiser , and others > made significant contributions to its development. > > Bruce - always, it seem to me, for good reason - pisses me off. > > Art > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > _______________________________________________ > Visualpython-users mailing list > Visualpython-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Aug 9 21:43:20 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Aug 9 20:43:34 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: [Visualpython-users] Close, but no cigar Message-ID: <001f01c35ed8$65f667e0$0c02a8c0@Arts> >Bruce simply does not see any significance to the interactive prompt. >Incredibly. He states so repeatedly. All the more incredible, to me, because - particularly for teaching - VPython's ability to function directly at the interactive prompt is one of its more incredible features. I worked hard to reconfigure PyGeo, in its latest version. to be able to take full advantage of this capacity of VPython's. Simply took me a while to figure out how to do so. So the argument is not purely theoretical, and not purely as an observer. *I* want IDLE to start up interactively, and have every intention of overriding Bruce's override in a PyGeo distro. I simply can't stomach to reply directly to Bruce's comments about the "data" supporting his view - in light, among other things, of the div operator argument background, where his "data" seemed to be so influential. He knows full well he can support that "data" with two sentences of instructions to his students, to get them where we feels they need to be when opening IDLE. Rather than effecting all kinds of peoples who's needs are quite different (stating generously that Bruce correctly perceives the needs, and the importance of those needs, of his users). This is silly stuff, really. And always has been. But its hard to laugh. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Aug 9 23:05:23 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Aug 9 22:05:33 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Close, but no cigar Message-ID: <000701c35ee3$dca25880$0c02a8c0@Arts> Bruce- >I've tried in various forums to explain what data these decisions are >based on, and I won't repeat all of that here. Me- >>I simply can't stomach to reply directly to Bruce's comments about the >>data" supporting his view - in light, among other things, of the div >>perator argument background, where his "data" seemed to be so >> >>influential. Sorry folks. Fuses blown. This is not the first time this scientist has insulted science with his "data" - data which, under his version of the scientific method ,will always unambigously support and confirm his petty prejudices and half-baked conclusions. I label my half-baked conclusions and petty prejudices "Zen". Gives me some wiggle room anyway. And leaves me in a position to say that perhaps I respect the scientific method and its significance more then do some scientists. And with the zeal of a convert. If anybody cares at all as to what all my screaming has been about for these years now. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Aug 9 23:37:04 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Aug 9 22:37:14 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Close, but no cigar Message-ID: <000501c35ee8$494f1910$0c02a8c0@Arts> >This is not the first time this scientist has insulted science with his >"data" - data which, under his version of the scientific method ,will >always unambigously support and confirm his petty prejudices and half->baked conclusions. And I am still pulling my punches. Please add "personal agendas". Thank you. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Aug 10 01:20:31 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Aug 10 00:20:43 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Close, but no cigar Message-ID: <000b01c35ef6$bcfbf320$0c02a8c0@Arts> >abundant experience with users new to Python shows that the >fewer the instructions the better The desperate need to avoid instruction, to students, in a University setting disturbs me bit. I can only hope he is no more than moderately successful at it. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Aug 10 01:40:10 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Aug 10 00:40:20 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Close, but no cigar Message-ID: <000b01c35ef9$7bc4ab60$0c02a8c0@Arts> And I am afraid, there is one more *fact* I would like on the record. I went to the considerable trouble of creating, for Bruces benefit,a proto-type implementation, fully configured, with Inno Installer, of a stand-alone VPython in a runtime Python environment. In other words, an environment that Bruce could feel free to customize to his heart's content for whatever perceived needs of himself, his students, other people's students, etc. and etc. - without disturbing, in viral ways, anybody else's existing Python installation. And no instructions necessary. Didn't talk about it. Did it. Took time. Without grant funding. And while there was definite interest in this approach, based on clear comments from other professors on the list, Bruce never pursued it. To the extent that I have no reason to believe he even bothered to download what I had made available, to see what it did, and how it did it. Not to mention why. For the record. Art From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Aug 10 02:33:05 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 10 01:31:04 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond LEGOs Message-ID: <000801c35f00$e0641540$6401a8c0@vaio> Here's a 2 year robotics project using Python [Project Duration: January 1, 2003 to December 31, 2005] http://www.cs.brynmawr.edu/BeyondLegos/ Seems there are/were openings in the grant for pilot schools.. How to Become a Pilot School http://www.cs.brynmawr.edu/BeyondLegos/PilotProgram/HowTo.html - Jason -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Beyond LEGOs.url Type: application/octet-stream Size: 150 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20030810/81c7b815/BeyondLEGOs.obj From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Aug 10 02:37:55 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 10 01:35:54 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Pyro, Python Robotics Pyro Message-ID: <001101c35f01$8cfb6ec0$6401a8c0@vaio> Pyro is a library, environment, graphical user interface, and low-level drivers to explore AI and robotics using the Python language. Features OpenGL visualization of robot and sensors Open source - available for study, or changing Designed for students, and researchers Works on many real robotics platforms and simulators Extensive algorithms includes behavior-based, vision (motion tracking, blobs, etc.), learning (back-propagation, self-organizing maps, etc.), evolutionary, and more. http://emergent.brynmawr.edu/pyro/?page=Pyro -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pyro, Python Robotics Pyro.url Type: application/octet-stream Size: 160 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20030810/46fd6881/PyroPythonRoboticsPyro.obj From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Aug 10 02:41:40 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 10 01:39:38 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] example brain for collecting images from a robot as it moves around Message-ID: <001a01c35f02$133639c0$6401a8c0@vaio> http://emergent.brynmawr.edu/pyro/?page=PyroModuleVision from pyro.brain import Brain import time def saveListToFile(ls, file): for i in range(len(ls)): file.write(str(ls[i]) + " ") file.write("\n") def scaleList(ls, maxval): for i in range(len(ls)): ls[i] = ls[i] / (1.0 * maxval) return ls class SampleImages(Brain): def setup(self): self.getRobot().startService("V4LCamera") self.camera = self.getRobot().getService("V4LCamera") print "done initializing camera" #to save image data in a nnet ready format, uncomment the following line #self.cameradat = open("camera.dat", "w") self.count = 0 def step(self): if self.count < 10: self.camera.update() image = self.camera.getShrunkenImage(xscale = 0.5, mode = 'sample') #to save image data in a nnet ready format, uncomment the following line #saveListToFile(scaleList(image.data, 255), self.cameradat) #to save image data as ppm files, uncomment the following line image.saveToFile("image%d.ppm" % self.count) self.wander(0.9) time.sleep(0.3) self.getRobot().stop() self.count += 1 print "step", self.count else: print "done collecting samples" self.getRobot().stop() #to save image data in a nnet ready format, uncomment the following line #self.cameradat.close() self.pleaseStop() def wander(self, minSide): robot = self.getRobot() front = robot.get('range', 'value', 'front', 'min')[1] left = robot.get('range', 'value', 'front-left', 'min')[1] right = robot.get('range', 'value', 'front-right', 'min')[1] if front < minSide: robot.move(0,-0.3) elif left < minSide: robot.move(0,-0.3) elif right < minSide: robot.move(0,0.3) else: robot.move(0.2, 0) def INIT(engine): return SampleImages('SampleImages', engine) From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Aug 10 02:47:02 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 10 01:45:02 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] EVBU -- An Open Source 68HC11 Simulator Message-ID: <001a01c35f02$d31751c0$6401a8c0@vaio> EVBU is written in pure Python and uses the wxPython graphical framework. http://claymore.engineer.gvsu.edu/~steriana/Python/evbudoc.html Introduction The Motorola 68HC11 is a popular microcontroller and several evaluation boards are available (including Motorola's original board, known as the EVBU) for exploring the capabilities of this microcontroller. This software is a 68HC11 simulator that emulates many aspects of an EVBU with a 68HC11 running the BUFFALO monitor program. The user interface to EVBU is similar (but not identical) to what a user would experience using a terminal program connected to the EVBU hardware. EVBU is free software licensed under the terms of the GPL. In addition to a command-line emulation of BUFFALO, the EVBU software provides a logic-analyzer-like interface to the 68HC11 port pins. This allows you to view output waveforms and to construct and view input stimulus waveforms. The main goal of the EVBU software is to aid in the understanding of the 68HC11 and of various concepts in digital systems. It is not the goal of EVBU to be a fast, complete, all-singing-all-dancing simulator (investigate THRSim11 or UMPS if you are looking for one). Only some of the 68HC11 peripherals are implemented. Thus, EVBU is intended mostly as a teaching tool, although it is a fairly capable simulator. The execution speed is on the order of 500X real time for an 8 MHz 68HC11. That is, it takes about 500 seconds to simulate 1 second of real time (on a 1 GHz Pentium processor). Improving the speed of the simulator is not a major goal of the project. EVBU is written in pure Python and uses the wxPython graphical framework. http://claymore.engineer.gvsu.edu/~steriana/Python/evbudoc.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EVBU -- An Open Source 68HC11 Simulator.url Type: application/octet-stream Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20030810/508f4ce6/EVBU--AnOpenSource68HC11Simulator.obj From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Aug 10 03:31:37 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 10 02:29:36 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] leglet for ziggy Message-ID: <003d01c35f09$0d3dbc80$6401a8c0@vaio> Here's a nice one.. An interactive Java applet designed to optimize the leg linkage for a robot named Ziggy http://www.gotrobots.com/ziggy/linkage/ Experiments by dragging all the points around :-) http://www.gotrobots.com/ziggy/main.shtml http://www.gotrobots.com/ziggy/leg_design.shtml From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Aug 10 09:40:34 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Aug 10 08:40:45 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Pyro, Python Robotics Pyro Message-ID: <000c01c35f3c$97ef3a60$0c02a8c0@Arts> Jason writes - >Pyro is a library, environment, graphical user interface, and low-level >drivers to explore AI and robotics using the Python language. Getting Pyro up and running seems like a job, even on Linux. Not sure it is even a possibility on Windows. I had checked the news group, and saw some indication of limitations of functionality under Windows. On the other hand, it does seem like a very interesting project. Perhaps I will continue my penance for being such a pain-in-the -ass by taking a crack at seeing what would be involved in making Pyro more accessible to your average schmo. Not unselfish. This schmo would like to be getting a hands on look at it in any case. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Aug 10 09:52:13 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Aug 10 08:52:25 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: [Visualpython-users] re: Close, but no cigar References: <001301c35ecd$6dd61880$0c02a8c0@Arts> <3F358DCE.3040106@unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <001001c35f3e$396d6eb0$0c02a8c0@Arts> > You are correct that Guido wants the default to be that IDLE start in > the shell, not in an edit window, and he is not comfortable with the > autosave feature Bruce, I would like to remind you that I had some time ago, at considerable effort, created - essentially for your benefit - a prototype Standalone VPython. In a Python runtime environment. With full Inno set-up files completed. And made it available for download. Indicating to you that it was my opinion that this might be the simplest approach that would allow you full "rights" to customize to your hearts content, and while actually putting *less* of a burden on your users than you are currently - while avoiding assaults by the likes of me, who feels your current approach is not fully responsible. One download, all complete. There were posts to the list indicating some definite interest in this approach. At least as a possible alternative, and something to explore. That's the last I heard of it. Some clue, maybe? Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Aug 10 12:54:46 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Aug 10 11:54:58 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: [Visualpython-users] re: Close, but no cigar Message-ID: <000a01c35f57$b9abbfa0$0c02a8c0@Arts> Bruce, a theorectical: I am a student at another University. And no computer guru myself. But I am also in a class working with Python, to study scientific and computational issues. [Not so theoretical, really. There are many such programs, using a variety of add-on modules with Python]. I follow instructions at the beginning of the semester, and have everything running I am supposed to have running. Wasn't very hard. Later on, for an independent project, I want to explore doing some visualization. VPython is a good starting point, I hear. Its for mortals. When its comes to computers, I am very much so. Download it, and its up and running easily. Nice. But it turns out its not quite what I need. Its too hard for me, in fact to understand on my own. Better try something easier. Let's keep things in good order. ControlPanel -> Add and Remove Programs -> VPython -> confirm remove. Back to where I was. Yikes. Nothing's running. Nothing I did this semester works anymore. My programs can't find something or other. Depending on the user, and the error messages he is getting, he may or may not be able to diagnose the fact that for some crazy reason, installing and uninstalling VPython has blown away his pre-existing Numeric installation. Which *his* professor had him download 2 1/2 month ago. And which as far as he knew, had nothing to do with VPython (because it doesn't). So it might not be an easy diagnose. Bruce? Too theoretical? Why do you think so? Art From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Aug 10 17:59:02 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:56:58 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Pyro, Python Robotics Pyro References: <000c01c35f3c$97ef3a60$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: <001701c35f82$3b8401c0$6401a8c0@vaio> Here's another one: http://eggo.sourceforge.net/ "EGg0 my Legos!! Finally, a robotics platform that's simple enough for 8th graders and still powerful enough for industry professionals! EGg0 can be all things to all people. The EGg0 Educational Robotics Platform is a project to develop hardware and software tools for designing and building robots with a focus on education. By leveraging the power of embedded systems, currently used hardware, free software and programming languages such as Python, the EGg0 project is building a cross-platform robotic systems that can be used and programmed by everyone. Designed in conjunction with the SPARK program (see sidebar), a middle school science and engineering lab series, EGg0 is being developed for those who have never build circuits or programmed computers, but who want to learn. " I learned EGg0 this morning reading GordonMcComb's essential reference "Robot Builder's Sourcebook" 700 pages and great value at $25 -- *packed* with goodies. http://robotoid.com/ a spinoff bidget site: http://www.budgetrobotics.com/ 'Sourcebook' is in the happy spirit of Whole Earth Catalog, but it is one man's collection. The web has changed everything, itelf a child of Whole Earth Catalog, so hard to truly say is "Robot Builder's Sourcebook" work of one man. His enthusaistic positive creative tone is evident. Most are just listings, but he includes soments adn sidebar intros for important topics and at the beginning of every section. He is a prpfessed catalog lover adn recomenmd the educational and inspirational virties of reading all sorts of catalogs. As mcuhs as he values teh web as esential, he also aprecaites printed catalogs too. He is author of various columns and one of the bibles: "Robot Builders Bonanza" http://www.sciencesbookreview.com/Robot_Builders_Bonanza_0071362967.html 'Bonanza' is instructional, a real intro to the topic, jargon and techniques. 'Sourcebook' is just what it says but as a catalog also makes teaches and invites.. It is so exciting to see what is hapenning now with cheap programmable devices and robotics sensors. Since onboard memory and software interconnectivty are now at an important threshold, one has a choice to program in assembly or something at higher level. Basic mainly with Java emerging quickly. And perhaps Python, and REBOL. Forth is always in the background. Robotics are literally hands-on prgamming, except when one is runing a simulator. Learning about them does reward a grasp of low-level concepts. But one can work 'up' or 'down' to that thes days. Sucha wide choice - from turnkey toys to cheap mainstream industrial components. re: Pythonic way of doing things OOpics are a nice developement "Specially designed for robotics, the OOPic is a totally different approach in microcontrollers utilizing Object-Oriented programming and Virtual Circuits. Program the OOPic in Basic, C, or Java syntax, clip on a battery and it is ready to control your project. " http://www.oopic.com/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0071420843/n%3D507846/103-2698 402-8575801 Jason From dblank at brynmawr.edu Mon Aug 11 16:09:14 2003 From: dblank at brynmawr.edu (Douglas S. Blank) Date: Mon Aug 11 11:36:39 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Pyro, Python Robotics Pyro In-Reply-To: <000c01c35f3c$97ef3a60$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: Arthur said: > Jason writes - > > >Pyro is a library, environment, graphical user interface, and low-level > >drivers to explore AI and robotics using the Python language. > > Getting Pyro up and running seems like a job, even on Linux. Not sure it is > even a possibility on Windows. I had checked the news group, and saw some > indication of limitations of functionality under Windows. It isn't as bad as it was 6 months ago. We've removed the dependencies on OpenGL. We have a group of developers, and getting larger. The ports to Windows and Mac OS X have just begun (the hard part will be the C vision code, I think). This part of a 3-year NSF-funded project. We are just getting together our first testing schools; next year we will introduce it to the masses. Any feedback from this group will gladly be incorporated into the project/code/materials. We do want to make it wasy for any schmos, including Art :) Even the docs and classroom materials are in a wiki. Good luck! -Doug > > On the other hand, it does seem like a very interesting project. > > Perhaps I will continue my penance for being such a pain-in-the -ass by > taking a crack at seeing what would be involved in making Pyro more > accessible to your average schmo. > > Not unselfish. This schmo would like to be getting a hands on look at it in > any case. > > Art > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -- Douglas S. Blank, Assistant Professor dblank@brynmawr.edu, (610)526-6501 Bryn Mawr College, Computer Science Program 101 North Merion Ave, Park Science Building Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 dangermouse.brynmawr.edu From gritsch at iue.tuwien.ac.at Mon Aug 11 22:58:27 2003 From: gritsch at iue.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Gritsch) Date: Mon Aug 11 15:57:48 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] The PyGame approach to installing Message-ID: <3F37F563.4090106@iue.tuwien.ac.at> Arthur, you complained about some inabilitier of the Win32 Distutils-Installer. Maybe the approach taken by PyGame is the solution: The PyGame-library uses distutils (different downloads for different Python versions), and the PyGame-Docs use some full blown installer, which generates Start-menu shortcuts, and allows for installing in an arbitrary location (defaulting to 'program files'). Markus P.S.: Your PyOpenGL-Minimal installer seems to be too minimal ;) I tried to start the wxPython demo which uses wxGLCanvas, but it complained about not finding glut32.dll From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Aug 11 18:52:35 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Aug 11 20:43:09 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: The PyGame approach to installing Message-ID: <000101c3606a$ac3fd450$0c02a8c0@Arts> Markus writes - >you complained about some inabilitier of the Win32 Distutils-Installer. Complained? You know that would unlike me;). I *commented*. >Maybe the approach taken by PyGame is the solution: The PyGame->library uses distutils (different downloads for different Python versions), > and the PyGame-Docs use some full blown installer, which generates > Start-menu shortcuts, and allows for installing in an arbitrary location >(defaulting to 'program files'). Yes. Essentially a version of the tack that Numeric takes as to its docs, which I pointed to early on as a very reasonable alternative. But I think it makes a bit more sense for major distributions, like Numeric and PyGame, than it does for more minor distributions like - dare I say it - PyGeo. Or even VPython. I am going to experiment a bit more - at some point - with what is the minimal win32all modules that are required to give disutils more functionality on Windows. I think just win32api.pyd, which is only 67k, might get one a good part of the way there. But I haven't tested my theory yet. >P.S.: Your PyOpenGL-Minimal installer seems to be too minimal ;) I >tried to start the wxPython demo which uses wxGLCanvas, but it >complained about not finding glut32.dll I believe I am fully innocent there. I don't think that glut32.dll comes with the full blown PyOpenGL either. As it is third party. What the full blown PyOpenGL probably does come with is better documentation as to need to download and install glut32.dll to have the GLUT based demos work. In fact having glut32.dll in the PyOpenGL disdtro would be a Good Thing. And I considered it. But then decided I don't understand licensing issues well enough to feel comfortable doing it. Thinking that if it is *not* in the full-blown PyOpenGL distro, there was probably a good reason for that. Then again, maybe it is and I missed it. I'll check again. From gritsch at iue.tuwien.ac.at Tue Aug 12 22:56:15 2003 From: gritsch at iue.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Gritsch) Date: Tue Aug 12 15:55:30 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: The PyGame approach to installing In-Reply-To: <000101c3606a$ac3fd450$0c02a8c0@Arts> References: <000101c3606a$ac3fd450$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: <3F39465F.8030202@iue.tuwien.ac.at> Arthur wrote: > >>P.S.: Your PyOpenGL-Minimal installer seems to be too minimal ;) I >>tried to start the wxPython demo which uses wxGLCanvas, but it >>complained about not finding glut32.dll > > I believe I am fully innocent there. I don't think that glut32.dll comes > with the full blown PyOpenGL either. As it is third party. You are right. After googling for glut32.dll and placing it in the windows\system32 folder everything went fine. Markus From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Aug 12 19:13:53 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Tue Aug 12 18:14:13 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: The PyGame approach to installing Message-ID: <913c28eca9.8eca9913c2@optonline.net> Markus - >You are right. After googling for glut32.dll and placing it in the >windows\system32 folder everything went fine. Thanks for confirming that. In fact I heard from Mike Fletcher who explained to me why the PyOpenGL team does not include the glut32 dll in their distro, but assuring me that he didn't believe there were any licensing issues. Based on your expereince - and I think Kirby's was the same - it seems to me for the purposes of Minimal Python - whatever those might be - it should be. And it will be. Art From arkamir at softhome.net Thu Aug 14 19:26:23 2003 From: arkamir at softhome.net (arkamir@softhome.net) Date: Thu Aug 14 20:26:26 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] finer code Message-ID: can anyone direct me to some finely written code which is well documented. I checked on vualts of parnassus but had no idea on what to look for. thanks From simon at arrowtheory.com Fri Aug 15 12:07:55 2003 From: simon at arrowtheory.com (Simon Burton) Date: Thu Aug 14 21:08:02 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] finer code Message-ID: <3f3c326b.10e6.0@webone.com.au> >can anyone direct me to some finely written code which is well documented. I >checked on vualts of parnassus but had no idea on what to look for. > >thanks > Did you check out the python standard library itself? Simon. From arkamir at softhome.net Fri Aug 15 12:26:56 2003 From: arkamir at softhome.net (arkamir@softhome.net) Date: Fri Aug 15 13:26:59 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] finer code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: oops, i forgot to mention that the code be online.I'm only a freshman in high school so i dont have the $$$ to buy books and the library doesnt have the book you mentioned. :( thanks conrad From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Aug 15 15:10:12 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Aug 15 14:10:23 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: finer code Message-ID: <000701c36358$7926be80$0c02a8c0@Arts> Simon ->>>Did you check out the python standard library itself? Conrad ->>>>oops, i forgot to mention that the code be online.I'm only a freshman in >>>high school so i dont have the $$$ to buy books and the library doesnt have >>>the book you mentioned. :( There's a lesson here somewhere. God knows what it is.Conrad, I would say there is lots out there. What kind of apps are you interested in?Art From missive at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 21:48:23 2003 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Fri Aug 15 16:48:59 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: finer code Message-ID: >can anyone direct me to some finely written code which is well documented. >I >checked on vualts of parnassus but had no idea on what to look for. The python standard library is the set of modules, functions, and classes that come with the python distribution. If you can start python and do something like: >>>import csv >>>dir(csv) ['Dialect', 'DictReader', 'DictWriter', 'Error', 'QUOTE_ALL', 'QUOTE_MINIMAL', 'QUOTE_NONE', 'QUOTE_NONNUMERIC', 'Sniffer', 'StringIO', '__all__', '__builtins__', '__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', '__version__', 'excel', 'excel_tab', 'get_dialect', 'list_dialects', 're', 'reader', 'register_dialect', 'unregister_dialect', 'writer'] >>>help(csv) You are well on your way to finding some finely written code. The code is already there on your system. You just need to find it. To find the code from this example, you need to search for csv.py How you do that depends on your operating system. On windows you could try Start -> Find files and folders I would say that much of the code in the standard library is probably "advanced" but it is also definitely the good stuff. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sat Aug 16 02:36:20 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sat Aug 16 01:34:14 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] finer code References: Message-ID: <009501c363b8$530e8a60$6501a8c0@vaio> You might find the Python Cookbook very helpful http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sat Aug 16 02:49:59 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sat Aug 16 01:47:50 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] finer code References: <009501c363b8$530e8a60$6501a8c0@vaio> Message-ID: <00ba01c363ba$3aca28e0$6501a8c0@vaio> > You might find the Python Cookbook very helpful > > http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python ...and generally anything/everything by Alex Martelli. He writes nice Python code, and lucid English too. Here are his posted 'recipes' on the same site: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python?author=97991 - Jason From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Tue Aug 19 05:53:06 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Tue Aug 19 04:50:57 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Pepakura Designer Message-ID: <001101c3662f$4ee607a0$6501a8c0@vaio> http://www.e-cardmodel.com/pepakura-en/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pepakura Designer.url Type: application/octet-stream Size: 150 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20030819/dec6d855/PepakuraDesigner.obj From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Aug 19 10:03:06 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Aug 19 09:03:12 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Pepakura Designer Message-ID: <000601c36652$3c2adfa0$0c02a8c0@Arts> Jason points out: http://www.e-cardmodel.com/pepakura-en/ Yeah. I happen to like the idea of empahsizing some connection between writing software, and the tangible realm. Accomplished by robotics, and this kind of thing. Or more simply by a nice color print of something one might design - via Povray, ala Kirby, for example. I new client of mine has one of those large format line printers. An Epson 9000 or something. I have already warned them that I might show up with a file of a geometric design I would like to have printed in good quality, poster-sized. They seem willing to oblige. I have also long had the idea of creating something that allowed one to design a hexaflexagon - a folding paper thingy - and have it printed so it could be folded and used. But it reqires printing on long strips of paper, and requires some 2 sided printing. Don't know quite how to get it done. Art From DaddyGravity at livingcode.ca Tue Aug 19 09:59:53 2003 From: DaddyGravity at livingcode.ca (Dethe Elza) Date: Tue Aug 19 11:59:37 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Pepakura Designer In-Reply-To: <000601c36652$3c2adfa0$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: <2BE64DCA-D25E-11D7-B594-0003939B59E8@livingcode.ca> Arthur wrote: > I have also long had the idea of creating something that allowed one to > design a hexaflexagon - a folding paper thingy - and have it printed > so it > could be folded and used. > > But it reqires printing on long strips of paper, and requires some 2 > sided > printing. Don't know quite how to get it done. In Martin Gardner's book, "The Scientific American Book of Mathematical Puzzles and Diversions," he presents some designs for hexaflexagons that are based on shapes besides strips of triangles. While some wouldn't apply (the figure eight required paper which overlaps itself), others might be appropriate for printing. I've seen 3-D flexing toys too, often with M.C. Escher motifs. Could be a cool realm of exploration to combine flexagons with tesselations. And the price of 3-D printers is coming down. They're around US$30,000 now, which is still steep, but in a few years having desktop "printing" of 3-D physical objects may be feasible. It needs a new word though, since "printing" really sounds 2-D (to me). --Dethe From gritsch at iue.tuwien.ac.at Tue Aug 19 22:10:05 2003 From: gritsch at iue.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Gritsch) Date: Tue Aug 19 15:17:17 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Pepakura Designer In-Reply-To: <25a2ca25a88f.25a88f25a2ca@optonline.net> References: <25a2ca25a88f.25a88f25a2ca@optonline.net> Message-ID: <3F42760D.5050201@iue.tuwien.ac.at> ajsiegel@optonline.net wrote: > More cooll when its ported to Python ;) Looking forward to it since the quality of the generated output is extremely *poor*. Markus From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Aug 19 15:44:42 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Tue Aug 19 15:35:06 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Pepakura Designer Message-ID: <25a2ca25a88f.25a88f25a2ca@optonline.net> > At http://hexaflexagon.sourceforge.net/ there is a nice program > which > lets you generate your hexa-Hexaflexagon with your own images. > > Markus Cool that its been done. Too cool that its been done as free and open source. More cooll when its ported to Python ;) It was actually a elementary school teacher that turned me onto flexagons. I turned my son on, but didn't know that it took until he called me from work at college. He works at a store, and it was slow, and he had access to all this adding machine tape. He just called to be reminded of how many triangles he needed to do a hexaflexagon. Noteworthy - as calls from son, from college, being rare events. Art From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Tue Aug 19 15:21:57 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Tue Aug 19 16:12:59 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Pepakura Designer References: <2BE64DCA-D25E-11D7-B594-0003939B59E8@livingcode.ca> Message-ID: <009201c3667e$c6e7d360$6501a8c0@vaio> > And the price of 3-D printers is coming down. They're around US$30,000 > now, which is still steep, but in a few years having desktop "printing" > of 3-D physical objects may be feasible. It needs a new word though, > since "printing" really sounds 2-D (to me). Well the industrial googleable [hmm.. first time I used that word] phrase is "rapid prototyping" which often means 3-D or Stereo-lithography. Yes very tantalizing.. The great news you don't have to own one to use this cool tech. There are many good sites where you can upload a 3-D model in various standard formats and get a quote. STL [StereoLithography] is the most common format. I can't put my hand on the best research I did into this already, for starters check these out RAPID PROTOTYPING HOME PAGE http://www.cc.utah.edu/~asn8200/rapid.html Other Rapid Prototyping Sites http://www.wohlersassociates.com/Other-RP-Sites.html google = rapid prototyping quotes will find the online services quickly, for example: American Precision Prototyping - Instant Online Quote Service http://www.approto.com/pages/1/index.htm Solid Concepts' E-Quotes http://www.solidconcepts.com/ >From Geo-Python projects, what export options for 3D formats? It would be great to set up a fast track GeoPython 3D model service. Fun to mount a show also along these lines .. - Jason From amk at amk.ca Tue Aug 19 17:11:52 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Tue Aug 19 16:42:33 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python algorithms Message-ID: <5F3A07DA-D281-11D7-A775-0003931BF218@amk.ca> I'm vaguely considering a document or book that uses Python to explain algorithms. An outline is below. I'm interested in hearing reactions to this outline, especially from teachers using Python in courses. * Are there any important topics that aren't included? * Are there any included topics that are of marginal importance? The outline is already quite long, and the shorter it is, the better the odds of it being written. Comments on the relative importance of topics -- "don't spend too much space on numbers, but graphs are important, so spend a lot of time on them" * Are there any features the book needs? (Project suggestions, exercises, a chapter on mathematical fundamentals, etc.) * Any other suggested changes? Thanks for any ideas you might have; they'll all be taken into consideration. --amk "Algorithms in Python" (alt. "Learning Algorithms with Python") is a book that uses Python as the vehicle to teach the basic ideas of algorithms -- what an algorithm is, how to notate them clearly, what O() notation means, etc. -- and to introduce a number of different algorithms. It is not a formal textbook; discussions will rarely or never be rigorous, and there won't be any exercises. Requirements: * Minimal mathematical background should be required (basically functions, I think). Those bits of notation that are necessary will be explained as they're needed. * Elementary Python programming knowledge is needed, so readers should have a tutorial such as "Learning Python" alongside this book; it will not attempt to teach Python, though it will introduce relevant standard library modules. * Python 2.3 will be used. The overarching goal is to make the book understandable by a bright high-school student. This outline is very long, quite possibly too long. I can't estimate a length yet, but it's somewhat frightening that the comparable Perl book, O'Reilly's "Mastering Algorithms with Perl", had three authors. If shortening the book is required, there are two sets of chapters that could be dropped. 1. Drop "Game Trees", "Strings", "Real Implementations". Shorten the "Sorting" chapter by dropping bubble sort or other algorithms that are illustrative but impractical. The graph and tree chapters could probably be trimmed by dropping some topics. 2. If it's still too long, drop "Geometric Algorithms" and "Hard Problems". Outline --------- * Preface (the usual front matter) * Introductory comments * Intended audience; prerequisites; goals of book * Outline of book * Typographical conventions * Acknowledgements I. Basic Algorithms * Algorithmic Analysis (alt. "What is an Algorithm"? * Basic idea: an algorithm is a series of steps to perform a task * Example: finding the largest number in a list * Iterative formulation * Recursive formulation * Measuring time complexity: O, Theta, Phi notation * Compare different time complexities: O(n) vs O(lg n) * Applying O() to memory/space complexity * Time complexity of various Python built-in operations (dicts, lists) * Hashing Hashing is going to be the first serious algorithm used as an example, so it's going to be worked out in the most detail. Later chapters will explain algorithms, give reasons why they work, and discuss their O() complexity, but in less detail. * Basic concept of hash tables * Computing hash codes * Handling collisions * Resizing * Amortized algorithm costs (I can't see how to fit this into chapter 1, since you need a reasonably complicated algorithm to use as an example,) * Deleting hash table entries * Determining time complexity of hashing (this would be the most detailed explanation of determining time complexity; remaining chapters would be more hand-waving) II. Data Structures * Graphs * Graph concepts * Different graph representations (Node objects, sets of arcs) * Traversal * Topological sorts * Example: working out file dependencies * Connected-components * Spanning trees * Shortest paths * Trees * Trees as a special case of graphs * Binary trees * Representations (Node objects, lists/tuples, tables) * Searching * Inserting * Deleting * Unbalanced trees * Recursive operations on trees * Balanced trees: * red-black * do AVL trees, or just mention them briefly? (Briefly, I think; there's already more than enough material in this outline!) * B-trees Mathematical Algorithms * Numbers * Representing numbers on computers * Machine integers * Floating point representation * Large integers * Random number generation * Primality testing (kind of an odd duck) * Numeric Analysis * Polynomial evaluation * Finding zeros of functions * Differentiating functions * Integrating functions Geometric Algorithms: * Point representations * Convex hull * Line intersections * Range searching Applications * Sorting * Basic concepts * Comparing * Stability * Simple algorithms: * Bubble sort * Shell sort * Insertion sort * Merge sort * Quicksort * Implementation * Issues * Time-complexity * Time complexity of sorting * Proof of O(n lg n) bound. * Breaking assumptions: parallellism, spaghetti sort * Game trees * Introduction * Game rules (tic-tac-toe; or maybe hnefatafl, a game I did for a school project once) * Simple tree search * Alpha/beta cutoff * Strings This will likely be a difficult chapter, both to write and to read, because FSMs will be a pain to explain. Maybe this chapter isn't needed? * Simple searching * Boyer-Moore/KMP searches * Data compression * Regular expressions * Simple regex patterns * Finite automata * Languages * What finite automata can't do * Brief theory-of-computation overview The Real World (alt. Where Things Get Difficult) Hard problems: * P and NP * NP-completeness * Explanation * Various examples of NP-complete problems * Show that all NP-complete problems are equivalent * Solving an NP-complete problem * Exhaustive search * Heuristics * Real Implementations: Examines real-world implementation of various algorithms. * Random number generation: Mersenne twister * Karatsuba algorithm? (maybe too complicated and boring?) * Python's dictionary hashing * Python's sort * Final thoughts I like books that close with some sort of summation. This brief final chapter will discuss a few general issues. * Think about time complexity * Do the simplest thing... * Write tests * Value clarity over optimization * Where to go from here? * More books to read; things to do * Current state of research (parallel, distributed, various domains) Possible Topics -------------------- * Heaps (can't figure out where to fit them in -- any suggestions?) Not Covered ------------------ * Linked lists (they aren't the source of many algorithms, and their implementation in Python doesn't seem very interesting) From ANTIGEN_DVNTEX01 at devote.nl Fri Aug 22 03:16:11 2003 From: ANTIGEN_DVNTEX01 at devote.nl (ANTIGEN_DVNTEX01) Date: Fri Aug 22 11:32:59 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Antigen found Win32/Sobig.F.Trojan (CA(InoculateIT), Sophos, CA(Vet )) virus Message-ID: <9916289167D2D411BD0700508BB4A5270227414C@DVNTEX01> Antigen for Exchange found document_9446.pif infected with Win32/Sobig.F.Trojan (CA(InoculateIT),Sophos,CA(Vet)) worm. The message is currently Purged. The message, "Re: That movie", was sent from Edu-sig@python.org and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Devote/Bunnik/DVNTEX01. From gritsch at iue.tuwien.ac.at Tue Aug 19 19:56:06 2003 From: gritsch at iue.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Gritsch) Date: Fri Aug 22 11:52:56 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Pepakura Designer In-Reply-To: <000601c36652$3c2adfa0$0c02a8c0@Arts> References: <000601c36652$3c2adfa0$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: <3F4256A6.2080205@iue.tuwien.ac.at> Arthur wrote: > Jason points out: > > http://www.e-cardmodel.com/pepakura-en/ > > Yeah. > > I happen to like the idea of empahsizing some connection between writing > software, and the tangible realm. Accomplished by robotics, and this kind > of thing. Or more simply by a nice color print of something one might > design - via Povray, ala Kirby, for example. > > I new client of mine has one of those large format line printers. An Epson > 9000 or something. I have already warned them that I might show up with a > file of a geometric design I would like to have printed in good quality, > poster-sized. They seem willing to oblige. > > I have also long had the idea of creating something that allowed one to > design a hexaflexagon - a folding paper thingy - and have it printed so it > could be folded and used. > > But it reqires printing on long strips of paper, and requires some 2 sided > printing. Don't know quite how to get it done. At http://hexaflexagon.sourceforge.net/ there is a nice program which lets you generate your hexa-Hexaflexagon with your own images. Markus From postmaster at fhg.de Sun Aug 24 03:01:32 2003 From: postmaster at fhg.de (postmaster@fhg.de) Date: Sun Aug 24 01:42:33 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Virus Alert Message-ID: <200308240001.h7O01WTM007548@mailgw2.fraunhofer.de> Viruswall on host mailgw2 has detected Virus WORM_SOBIG.F in your mail message (file your_document.pif) to Sebastian.Wilhelmi@isst.fhg.de. From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Aug 22 21:08:50 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Aug 24 19:49:43 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re screaming server syndrome In-Reply-To: <9916289167D2D411BD0700508BB4A5270227414C@DVNTEX01> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030822200354.01e72f40@pop.ptld.qwest.net> At 02:16 AM 8/22/2003 +0200, ANTIGEN_DVNTEX01 wrote: >Antigen for Exchange found document_9446.pif infected with >Win32/Sobig.F.Trojan (CA(InoculateIT),Sophos,CA(Vet)) worm. >The message is currently Purged. The message, "Re: That movie", was >sent from Edu-sig@python.org and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound >located at Devote/Bunnik/DVNTEX01. Ahhhh, not here too! pydotorg is currently a vast echo chamber of servers-on-autopilot screaming at each other about finding a virus. Seems a lot of them regurgitate the offending attachment in the process, sending it back to the list -- which just sets up the chorus of screams for another round. Seems to be a semi-infinite loop. Result: over 1800 screams in under 24 hours. My ISP sent me warnings that I was over my 10 megabyte mail queue limit. Let's just pray that edu-sig doesn't fall victim to the "screaming server syndrome" as well. Kirby From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Aug 24 22:03:25 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 24 21:01:14 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re screaming server syndrome References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030822200354.01e72f40@pop.ptld.qwest.net> Message-ID: <001801c36aa4$b14cff60$6501a8c0@vaio> > At 02:16 AM 8/22/2003 +0200, ANTIGEN_DVNTEX01 wrote: > >Antigen for Exchange found document_9446.pif infected with > >Win32/Sobig.F.Trojan (CA(InoculateIT),Sophos,CA(Vet)) worm. > >The message is currently Purged. The message, "Re: That movie", was > >sent from Edu-sig@python.org and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound > >located at Devote/Bunnik/DVNTEX01. Maybe I am mistaken, but on top of everything else, surely it is not a good idea for these ANTIGEN messages to be posted with revealing info like: " was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Devote/Bunnik/DVNTEX01 " Isn't that helpful location information to further server attacks and compromises ? - Jason From mike at pentangle.net Tue Aug 26 18:08:52 2003 From: mike at pentangle.net (Michael Williams) Date: Tue Aug 26 12:08:56 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Update your bookmarks Message-ID: <1061914132.3f4b861488855@webmail.pentangle.net> Some of you may remember my (woefully out-of-date and incomplete) Python Education resource, which I assembled from the detritus of my Masters project. Now I've graduated (go me!) my university webspace is about to stop working so for the benefit of those of you who worry about this kind of thing, and conceivably those of you who have never seen it, I've put it up at my new website. The new URL is http://www.pentangle.net/python/ I *promise* to update it soon. Finding a job is temporarily my priority. -- Michael From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Wed Aug 27 16:35:54 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Wed Aug 27 15:33:39 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] computational literacy calcsheet Message-ID: <000701c36cd2$6edcc540$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer> USA Inc. is spending $1 billion each week for their mad war. That's $1653 per second = street price of a superb new 3Ghz laptop computer. In 1 year, at the present Shrub spending rates, we could buy new computers for 31,536,000 children/people. I imagine if one placed an federal order for 31 million laptops you'd get a good deal. So perhaps 50 million kids this year. I know you can't eat computers, and they won't give you clean water or electricity. I am am not saying its necessarily the answer to anything.. But seriously, what do you suppose the local/global impact of a such project would be if done right? What kind of 21st century open democracy do you think this might seed? What else would be needed to make sense of such proposal? I'd set aside part of the budget to make sure all these new 3Ghz ALTRUONS PCs are bundelled new version of Trevor Bayliss built-in clock-work power supplies. http://www.freeplay.net/website/product/freecharge.php http://www.ogormans.co.uk/Bayliss.htm http://www.woe.edu.pl/2000/4_00/tune.html http://www.britishcouncil.org/science/science/personalities/text/ukperson/ba ylis.htm and of course wireless network powered by solar backup systems - Jason ______________________________________________ Jason Cunliffe [NOMADICS: Director art+design] Tel/fax: +1 718 422-1078 jasonic@nomadics.org N 43:00.000' W 074:31.875' ALT:1144 ft 84 Henry Street #3C Brooklyn NY 11201 USA http://tranzilla.net/.v From delza at blastradius.com Wed Aug 27 15:44:54 2003 From: delza at blastradius.com (Dethe Elza) Date: Wed Aug 27 17:45:13 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond cultural literacy In-Reply-To: <000701c36cd2$6edcc540$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer> Message-ID: Jason wrote: > USA Inc. is spending $1 billion each week for their mad war. > That's $1653 per second = street price of a superb new 3Ghz laptop > computer. > > In 1 year, at the present Shrub spending rates, we could buy new > computers > for 31,536,000 children/people. I imagine if one placed an federal > order for > 31 million laptops you'd get a good deal. > So perhaps 50 million kids this year. > > I know you can't eat computers, and they won't give you clean water or > electricity. I am am not saying its necessarily the answer to > anything.. So what would the answer to something cost? Here are some estimates circa 1995-96, in US dollars: Eliminate Starvation and Malnourishment: $19 Billion [1] Provide Healthcare and AIDS Control: $21 Billion [2] Provide Shelter: $21 Billion [3] Provide Clean, Safe Water: $10 Billion [4] Eliminate Illiteracy: $5 Billion [5] Provide Clean, Safe Energy via Efficiency & Renewables: $49 Billion [6][7] Retire Developing Nations Debt: $30 Billion [8] Stabilize Population: $11 Billion [9] Prevent Soil Erosion: $23 Billion [10] Stop Deforestation: $7 Billion [11] Stop Ozone Depletion: $5 Billion [12] Prevent Acid Rain: $8 Billion [13] Prevent Global Warming: $8 Billion [14] Remove Landmines: $2 Billion [15] Refugee Relief: $5 Billion [16] Eliminate Nuclear Weapons: $7 Billion [17] Build Democracy: $2 Billion [18] [1] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [2] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [3] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [4] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [5] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [6] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [7] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [8] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [9] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [10] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [11] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [12] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [13] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [14] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [15] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [16] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [17] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml [18] http://www.osearth.com/resources/wwwproject/what01.shtml While the overall dollars for these will have undoubtedly increased (and it may be too late to prevent global warming and deforestation), the overall figure is probably still in the ballpark: 30% of the world military budget. Hey, it only too $300 Million to elminate smallpox. --Dethe From delza at blastradius.com Wed Aug 27 16:13:01 2003 From: delza at blastradius.com (Dethe Elza) Date: Wed Aug 27 18:13:10 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] oops In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9F2FE58C-D8DB-11D7-834F-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com> Sorry, that last post should have been "Beyond Computer Literacy." --Dethe From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Wed Aug 27 22:55:56 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Wed Aug 27 22:02:20 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] oops References: <9F2FE58C-D8DB-11D7-834F-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com> Message-ID: <001001c36d07$86130d20$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer> > Sorry, that last post should have been "Beyond Computer Literacy." Great answer, and I think 'cultural literacy' IS more appropriate thanks - Jason From delza at blastradius.com Thu Aug 28 11:08:26 2003 From: delza at blastradius.com (Dethe Elza) Date: Thu Aug 28 13:09:13 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] oops In-Reply-To: <001001c36d07$86130d20$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer> Message-ID: <3D484056-D97A-11D7-834F-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com> Thanks for the feedback. Sometimes slip-ups can be revealing that way. --Dethe Jason wrote: >> Sorry, that last post should have been "Beyond Computer Literacy." > > Great answer, and I think 'cultural literacy' IS more appropriate > > thanks > - Jason > From delza at blastradius.com Thu Aug 28 16:52:22 2003 From: delza at blastradius.com (Dethe Elza) Date: Thu Aug 28 18:52:32 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] edu-sig page revamped In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030718113332.02592ea0@pop.ptld.qwest.net> Message-ID: <491CDA91-D9AA-11D7-A1E3-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com> Hi Kirby, I know there have been more people posting their experiences, lesson plans, and tutorials for python in the classroom than are reflected on the Edu-sig site. Has anyone collected those, and if so, where can I find them. A friend is looking to put together a five-session (one hour per session) intro to Python, presumably at Oregon State since that's where he's doing his Ph.D. Any tips would be appreciated. Maybe I just didn't dig deep enough and it's staring me in the face? --Dethe From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Aug 28 22:45:17 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Aug 28 21:49:10 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: computational literacy calcsheet Message-ID: <000001c36dcf$b7549f20$0c02a8c0@Arts> Jason writes - >USA Inc. is spending $1 billion each week for their mad war. >That's $1653 per second = street price of a superb new 3Ghz laptop computer. >In 1 year, at the present Shrub spending rates, we could buy new computers >for 31,536,000 children/people. I imagine if one placed an federal order for >31 million laptops you'd get a good deal. So perhaps 50 million kids this year seed? What else would be needed to make sense of such proposal? I'm afaid I am finding it hard to fully distinguish this thinking from Red Skeleton's ideas on avoidng the approaching overpopulation apocalypse. "Did you know that there is a woman somewhere giving birth every 12 seconds?" And the near obvious punchline: "I think we need to find that women and stop her." Art From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Fri Aug 29 03:19:27 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Fri Aug 29 02:17:46 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: computational literacy calcsheet References: <000001c36dcf$b7549f20$0c02a8c0@Arts> Message-ID: <000f01c36df5$809e9f00$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer> > "Did you know that there is a woman somewhere giving birth every 12 > seconds?" > > And the near obvious punchline: > > "I think we need to find that women and stop her." Well it seems she had daughters and grand daughters who all grew up since Red Skelton cracked that one. 86,000,000 more people per year = 2.7 babies per second in 2003 How does one take these big numbers and relate to them in social and in personal terms ? Can anyone think straight when the numbers get really large? Science is full of much larger mind-bending scale ranges. $400 billion year is what those lame-brained elected members of Congress voted to spend on this year's Pentagon budget. By all accounts they are borrowing from their/our children and grand children to pay the bill. While the money stays more or less in the economy, people and businesses do benefit, get educations etc, but most of the material product is useless and irretrievable. Even dumb-ass Hollywood BIG-budget movies are profitable from time to time, and the good ones have considerable shelf life. Maybe it's stupid crazy to ask such questions like mine, but not nearly as crazy as what is actually happening now in terms of massive resources. We are not supposed to talk or think about this stuff. Let's go back to cool tricks with attributes and dictionaries.. Think I 'll go outside and look at Mars again. Lucky it happened on a new moon :-) - Jason From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Aug 29 20:14:18 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Aug 29 19:14:26 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: computational literacy calcsheet Message-ID: <000501c36e83$465ee0a0$0c02a8c0@Arts> >Maybe it's stupid crazy to ask such questions like mine, but not nearly as >crazy as what is actually happening now in terms of massive resources. Personally, I try to only let myself be driven crazy by things I have the power to control. And to practice my sense of right and wrong also on that scale. In the end, that is the only scale that is real, to me. Nobody gets my respect by their politics - whatever it happens to be. In the least. Though they can lose my respect my their politics. >We are not supposed to talk or think about this stuff. No harm, certainly. >Let's go back to cool tricks with attributes and dictionaries.. No harm, certainly. >Think I 'll go outside and look at Mars again. Jumping on a one in 60,000 year opportunity makes sense. But,,, Mars. War. I'm not beyond giving that a worry. >Lucky it happened on a new moon :-) hope you enjoyed. Art From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Aug 31 07:12:02 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 31 06:10:09 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] The Blender Python API Reference Message-ID: <000801c36fa8$54c39ac0$6501a8c0@ValuedSonyCustomer> Introduction: This Reference documents the Blender Python API, a growing collection of Python modules (libs) that give access to part of the program's internal data and functions. Through scripting, Blender can be extended in realtime. Possibilities range from simple functionality to importers / exporters and even more complex "applications". Blender scripts are written in Python, an impressive high level, multi-paradigm, open-source language. http://www.blender.org/modules/documentation/228PythonDoc/index.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Blender.url Type: application/octet-stream Size: 208 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20030831/8678b18c/Blender.obj From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Wed Aug 20 20:20:30 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 31 22:39:05 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Fw: Stereo 3D with Jython Message-ID: <004601c36771$a5c93c20$6501a8c0@vaio> Thought you might be interested in this.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Kominsky" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:40 PM Subject: Stereo 3D with Jython > Hello, > > I have a jython script/app that generates > DisplayImplJ3D displays. I would like to > view these in stereo 3D, but have not been > successful. Stereo vision works with other > apps. Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > I'm using the standard windows visad installer, > and have modified the jye.bat script so the > last line starts: > %JYTHON_PATH%\jre\bin\java.exe -Dj3d.stereo=PREFERRED > > I'm using the following in my jython script: > > disp = DisplayImplJ3D("display1") > pbody = > disp.getDisplayRenderer().getView().getPhysicalBody() > pbody.setLeftEyePosition( Point3d(-.0050,0.0,0.0) ) > pbody.setRightEyePosition( Point3d(+.0050,0.0,0.0) ) > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > >