From drivel_drool@bigfoot.com  Thu Feb  1 01:24:18 2001
From: drivel_drool@bigfoot.com (Charlie Derr)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:24:18 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] no Python 2.0 bindings for Lightflow until now ...
In-Reply-To: <003801c08b0f$d1bd7a80$2f442fd5@telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <LOBBJCAMDNLNCGCCHGEICEPLJDAA.drivel_drool@bigfoot.com>

Hi all,
	I hope you'll forgive this tech-support-like question being posted to a
non-tech-support list, but there's been so much discussion about Lightflow
here, that I thought someone would be bound to know the answer...

	I am an enthusiastic (but not so very experienced) pythonista.  I just
downloaded the lightflow python module for windows (NT in my case).  I have
python 1.5 installed, but the instructions in the Lightflow documentation
don't seem to make much sense to me.

<quote from Lightflow\CS\Docs\Chap1.html>

Tutorial
The following example is one of the simplest possible scenes that can be
rendered: a sphere in the empty space.
Now start your preferred text editor and type the following text. When you
have finished save it in a file, and then start python from a console
passing the file name as an input (for example, if you have saved the file
as example.py, just type: python example.py).


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

#include < Lightflow/LfLocalSceneProxy.h >

void main(void)
{
    LfLocalSceneProxy* s = new LfLocalSceneProxy();
    LfArgList list;

    list.Reset();
    list << "position" << LfPoint( 5.0, -5.0, 4.0 );
    list << "color" << LfColor( 300.0, 300.0, 300.0 );
    s->LightOn( s->NewLight( "point", list ) );

    list.Reset();
    list << "ka" << LfColor( 0, 0, 0.5 );
    list << "kc" << LfColor( 1, 0.5, 0.5 );
    list << "kd" << 0.5;
    list << "km" << 0.1;
    LfInt plastic = s->NewMaterial( "standard", list );


    s->MaterialBegin( plastic );

    list.Reset();
    list << "radius" << 1.0;
    s->AddObject( s->NewObject( "sphere", list ) );

    s->MaterialEnd();


    list.Reset();
    list << "file" << "ball1.tga";
    LfInt saver = s->NewImager( "tga-saver", list );

    s->ImagerBegin( saver );

    list.Reset();
    list << "eye" << LfPoint( 0, -4, 0 );
    list << "aim" << LfPoint( 0, 0, 0 );
    LfInt camera = s->NewCamera( "pinhole", list );

    s->ImagerEnd();

    s->Render( camera, 300, 300 );

    delete s;
}



</quote from lightflow manual>




My problem is that this doesn't really look like python to me.  I'm guessing
it's either c or c++.  When i follow the instructions given above the code
(i pasted the code into a file exam.py) , i get:

Microsoft(R) Windows NT(TM)
(C) Copyright 1985-1996 Microsoft Corp.

C:\>cd python

C:\Python>cd lf

C:\Python\lf>ls
Lightflow  exam.py

C:\Python\lf>python exam.py
  File "exam.py", line 3
    void main(void)
            ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax



Do i need to use gcc to compile this file first?  (I have the cygwin port of
gcc, but am unfamiliar with its use)  I tried, but it wasn't able to find
the included header file.    While you folks are answering (or not) I'll be
trying to get lightflow to work on linux -- maybe this stuff makes more
sense there.


	thanx very much for any information,
		~c




From Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com  Fri Feb  2 01:26:17 2001
From: Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com (Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:26:17 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] no Python 2.0 bindings for Lightflow until now ...
Message-ID: <0044A271.N22121@rsmi.com>

Charlie wrote -

>I am an enthusiastic (but not so very experienced) pythonista.  I just
>downloaded the lightflow python module for windows (NT in my case).  I have
>python 1.5 installed, but the instructions in the Lightflow documentation
>don't seem to make much sense to me.

Seems to me you downloaded the wrong distro.

The Client Side API - Python Module is a distinct download.  Does
come with a number of Python demo scripts and Python specific
docs.  Found it easy to get at.

Unfortunately I am working on Windows, so the option to try
to run it against Python2.0 apparently won't work for me,
if I understood Guido correctly. 

[OT] Also just think I determined that QT/ PyQT is only
a real option on Linux.  Might have to bite the bullet and
get me a Linux box to work on.

ART 




From gritsch@iue.tuwien.ac.at  Fri Feb  2 12:16:08 2001
From: gritsch@iue.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Gritsch)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:16:08 +0100
Subject: [Edu-sig] no Python 2.0 bindings for Lightflow until now ...
References: <0044A271.N22121@rsmi.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c08d11$ece401e0$2f442fd5@telekabel.at>

> [OT] Also just think I determined that QT/ PyQT is only
> a real option on Linux.  Might have to bite the bullet and
> get me a Linux box to work on.

That's not true. You can download the PyQt bindings for Windows, which
already contain the compiled Qt library. Completely legal, no licensing, for
free. I have already made a simple program using the Qt Designer (which is
also included), adding the functionality by inheriting the generated base
class.

Have fun, Markus




From donh@halenet.com.au  Fri Feb  2 11:29:31 2001
From: donh@halenet.com.au (Don Hansford)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 21:29:31 +1000
Subject: [Edu-sig] (OT)no Python 2.0 bindings for Lightflow until now ...
In-Reply-To: <0044A271.N22121@rsmi.com>
References: <0044A271.N22121@rsmi.com>
Message-ID: <20010202212931.1183a68e.donh@halenet.com.au>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:26:17 -0600
Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com got it together enough to write:

> Charlie wrote -
> 
> >I am an enthusiastic (but not so very experienced) pythonista.  I
> just
> >downloaded the lightflow python module for windows (NT in my case).

> 
> [OT] Also just think I determined that QT/ PyQT is only
> a real option on Linux.  Might have to bite the bullet and
> get me a Linux box to work on.
> 
> ART 

I don't want to start a flame war here, but ------  :-)

<tongue-in-cheek>
References to "biting the bullet" and getting a linux box should be re-phrased to "removing the proprietary petard from the itchy part of my back" and getting a linux box!
</tongue-in-cheek>

Seriously, the ports of QT and TCL et al to Windows are just that - ports. They were never designed specifically for the Win environment. I think the people involved have done a fantastic job. I know I wouldn't want to be given the task of redesigning a Ferarri engine to run in a truck!

When you look at so many leading (or bleeding) edge things that are available nowadays in the computing field, all of the real "grab you by the short and curlies" type ones seem to come from the Open Source side, rather than the closed source (dark) side.

It is this well-spring of ingenuity and talent in the Open Source world that brought you things like c /c++, tcp/ip, the Internet, e-mail, search engines, scripting languages and of course, our own (well, Guidos' own, but ours too!) Python. Not to mention the "also-rans" like perl, php etc.

After all, how many of us would be using Python today if the original message was "Hey, I've written this great new language, send me $499.00 and you can see whether you like it or not".

The point (there HAD to be one somewhere!) I am trying to make is :-:
Use Python, use the QT & TCL libraries that come along with it. Use all the protocols and programs you need to in order to get through the day, but don't forget where they came from, nor the unique set of circumstances that allowed them to come into being. And remember that, although you have not physically paid in coin for them, you would be much the poorer if they weren't there for your use, or to break the ground for something even better for your grandchildren.

Here endeth lesson 101. There will be a test :-)##


-- 

This Email is 100% Virus Free!
How do I know? Because no Microsoft 
products were used to generate it!

Regards Don Hansford
ECKYTECH COMPUTING/
SQIT Warwick
<SuSE Linux 6.4>

"We're tired, we're wired, and our breath smells bad --
-But at least our Operating System doesn't suck!"


From Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com  Fri Feb  2 16:35:05 2001
From: Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com (Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:35:05 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] (OT)no Python 2.0 bindings for Lightflow until now ... Don Hansford
Message-ID: <0044D0E1.N22121@rsmi.com>

Don wrote -

>It is this well-spring of ingenuity and talent in the Open Source world that 
>brought you things like c /c++, tcp/ip, the Internet, e-mail, search engines,

>scripting languages and of course, our own (well, Guidos' own, but ours too!)

>Python. Not to mention the "also-rans" like perl, php etc.

My only quibble is the OT lead.

The fact I am on Windows is a practical matter of happenstance.

But my time invested exploring Linux (proudly, fairly early in the game -
got Linux Journal #1 to prove it) was revelatory rather than just educational.

The fact that Jeff Elkner uses Linux in the school systems is to me
a key and encouraging fact.

And with Python in the picture the possibilities of bringing the Open Source
energy into the school systems is enhanced tremendously.
I personally am not aware of a plan2 for the kind of role that Python can
play.  Which is why I tend to get excited here, a bit.

ART    
 


From DAnderson@tburg.k12.ny.us  Fri Feb  2 18:27:39 2001
From: DAnderson@tburg.k12.ny.us (Daryl Anderson)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:27:39 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] kids programming: math, robotics, language & learning
Message-ID: <B3A0B27109A7D111805300A0C99AACD5B84FB6@TBURGCOMM>

This is a 'cross-post" of an item I put up on the math-teach forum at which
I was first introduced to this forum by Mr. Kirby Urner. I'm pleased to have
discovered you folks and would be as interested in your perspectives on my
comments as I am in those of math teachers.


	One important strand in this discussion and throughout math-reform
discussion, when it actually takes place, seems to boil down to a "content"
versus "context" debate. I'm sure this is in many ways as false a dichotomy
as nature/nurture. Nevertheless, talking about it as a dichotomy can lead to
interesting discoveries. 

	I, for one, think it is much more important how I and other teachers
structure the context of a math classroom than what is on the "scope and
sequence" chart. By this I don't mean better bulletin boards and seating
charts! (any more than I define "class participation" as the typical waving
of small hands in reply to a carefully leading question from the sage
onstage). I mean, for instance, that how I build habits of real mathematical
discourse into eleven-year-olds approaches to math is more important than
whether I "cover" division of fractions. The former is pretty hard to do.
The latter can often be a decent base upon which to build the context - we
DO "do" division of fractions. My (relatively short) professional experience
is that kids at all "levels" of math benefit from learning to ask and answer
questions about each other's work - that most of them even, somehow (?!) do
better on classic normed arithmetic-based tests at the end of the year. It
is not just important to me because I find the theory and research
compelling, but because of that actual classroom experience with 125 kds a
year. We might disagree on the relative value of this. I'd like to hear
more.

	The reason I mention it (and the reason I have turned what started
out as a private post to a forum one) is that I am interested in your and
others' opinions on the content-context question viz kids programming !

	Personally, I always enjoyed programming for the ultimate
"solvability" of its problems (notwithstanding a CS course I once took which
showed me how hard it was to prove a program correct). With a good debugger
environment and lots of stubborn patience any slapped-together program could
be made to behave. And finding out why it didn't work was great fun.

	Although I hold a professional belief (and a personal one as a
father) that kids and people "naturally" take to problem-solving and gain
some form of true ego-energy from successes in that arena, I DON'T believe
that the p.s. aspect of programming appeals to most kids - or, at least,
that it is the best way to bring p.s. into a math curriculum. And I don't
place it as a foundation for my desire to work more actual programming into
the computer environment of my math (and English) students.

	The foundation for me, is context. I see programming as a
tremendously valuable arena for kids, even young ones, to explore the notion
of an algorithm and to discover how many different algorithms can lead to
correct solutions. Programming also allows kids to explore the notion of
"efficiency" in algorithms in general and the fact that even "efficiency" is
context-based.  (E.g. the notion that computers can process many brute-force
algorithms with negligible loss of efficiency). This, then, allows me to ask
them to reflect on relative efficiencies of paper-pencil arithmetic,
mental-math, calculator usage and estimation. I've asked kids to write short
programs to simulate the processes of paper-pencil arithmetic - e.g. the raw
"symbol manipulation" imbedded in "sum up the ones column, carry the one,
etcetera. Quite revealing for all concerned. 

	Language and natural/artificial language processing viz programming
can feed strongly into pieces of an English curriculum. A "parts of speech"
unit is really cool if built upon a challenge to create an "alien" language.
And exploring artificial languages give the sort of flicker-contrast
discovery that found us Pluto. I think some of the content in the "How to
think Like a Computer Scientist" site makes interesting reference to this
notion of different forms of "language".

	Programs to make some"thing" do something - such as the Lego
Mindstorms robotics control language or Logo (or a free, purely
visual/icon-based "language" called DRAPE that I've found) add an important
element to this mix. I'm not sure what it is, yet. Your thoughts ?

	Moving beyond this we wander into some fascinating areas of
cognitive science and the like. The Python language is accessible IMHO,
because it is interpreted. But the Object-Oriented model may be most
accepted and most useful primarily because it matches the developed
"event-driven" machine architectures of this era... I'm not sure they match
human mode of cognition. maybe they do, though... Certainly discrete,
sequential, "imperative" processing is NOT what goes on in the human mind.
Some "sum-is-greater-than the parts" combinatorial explosion of capability
arises from the neural "nets" that are at work, no ?

	A somewhat related phenomena crops up recently in robotics. The
control code necessary to build a machine that can purposely move through a
natural environment seems to require an immense database of discretely
processable situations and seems to be flattening the curve of developments
in the field. Recent work by has developed extremely simple (electronically)
devices which incorporate seemingly simple analog circuitry that combines to
create complex and lifelike-seeming "behaviors" from very simple machines. I
think these are called "BEAM" robotics.

	Finally, I have the sense that "professional" mathematics has been
transformed in some ways by computer-based access to powerful graphic
modelling tools. I have spent quite a bit of time exploring the utility of
these technologies for younger, non-professionals, Not so much the "Cabri"
gemoetry explorers, and certainly not the flash-n-jazz"software" that is
just drill-n-skill decked out in spangles. In particular, I've tried to
engage younger (10-12 y.o.) kids with the idea of "proof" by exploring
visual proofs using tools like Powerpoint and Flash. 

I'd be very interested in your and other's thoughts on these varied matters.

-regards
-da


From charlie@webmind.com  Fri Feb  2 18:34:15 2001
From: charlie@webmind.com (Charlie Derr)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:34:15 -0500
Subject: Nevermind, problem has been solved  RE: [Edu-sig] no Python 2.0 bindings for Lightflow until now ...
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJCAMDNLNCGCCHGEICEPLJDAA.drivel_drool@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLJJLLFOJMLCMJPLOIEJEGJAA.charlie@webmind.com>

Sorry for the clutter.  Markus already pointed me in the right direction,
and I've been playing with Lightflow (on linux at least), and it's great!!!!

	~c

|-----Original Message-----
|From: edu-sig-admin@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-admin@python.org]On
|Behalf Of Charlie Derr
|Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 8:24 PM
|To: Markus Gritsch; Jason Cunliffe; edu-sig@python.org
|Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] no Python 2.0 bindings for Lightflow until now
|...
|
|
|Hi all,
|	I hope you'll forgive this tech-support-like question being
|posted to a
|non-tech-support list, but there's been so much discussion about Lightflow
|here, that I thought someone would be bound to know the answer...
|
|	I am an enthusiastic (but not so very experienced)
|pythonista.  I just
|downloaded the lightflow python module for windows (NT in my case).  I have
|python 1.5 installed, but the instructions in the Lightflow documentation
|don't seem to make much sense to me.
|
|<quote from Lightflow\CS\Docs\Chap1.html>
|
|Tutorial
|The following example is one of the simplest possible scenes that can be
|rendered: a sphere in the empty space.
|Now start your preferred text editor and type the following text. When you
|have finished save it in a file, and then start python from a console
|passing the file name as an input (for example, if you have saved the file
|as example.py, just type: python example.py).
|
|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------
|---------
|----
|
|#include < Lightflow/LfLocalSceneProxy.h >
|
|void main(void)
|{
|    LfLocalSceneProxy* s = new LfLocalSceneProxy();
|    LfArgList list;
|
|    list.Reset();
|    list << "position" << LfPoint( 5.0, -5.0, 4.0 );
|    list << "color" << LfColor( 300.0, 300.0, 300.0 );
|    s->LightOn( s->NewLight( "point", list ) );
|
|    list.Reset();
|    list << "ka" << LfColor( 0, 0, 0.5 );
|    list << "kc" << LfColor( 1, 0.5, 0.5 );
|    list << "kd" << 0.5;
|    list << "km" << 0.1;
|    LfInt plastic = s->NewMaterial( "standard", list );
|
|
|    s->MaterialBegin( plastic );
|
|    list.Reset();
|    list << "radius" << 1.0;
|    s->AddObject( s->NewObject( "sphere", list ) );
|
|    s->MaterialEnd();
|
|
|    list.Reset();
|    list << "file" << "ball1.tga";
|    LfInt saver = s->NewImager( "tga-saver", list );
|
|    s->ImagerBegin( saver );
|
|    list.Reset();
|    list << "eye" << LfPoint( 0, -4, 0 );
|    list << "aim" << LfPoint( 0, 0, 0 );
|    LfInt camera = s->NewCamera( "pinhole", list );
|
|    s->ImagerEnd();
|
|    s->Render( camera, 300, 300 );
|
|    delete s;
|}
|
|
|
|</quote from lightflow manual>
|
|
|
|
|My problem is that this doesn't really look like python to me.
|I'm guessing
|it's either c or c++.  When i follow the instructions given above the code
|(i pasted the code into a file exam.py) , i get:
|
|Microsoft(R) Windows NT(TM)
|(C) Copyright 1985-1996 Microsoft Corp.
|
|C:\>cd python
|
|C:\Python>cd lf
|
|C:\Python\lf>ls
|Lightflow  exam.py
|
|C:\Python\lf>python exam.py
|  File "exam.py", line 3
|    void main(void)
|            ^
|SyntaxError: invalid syntax
|
|
|
|Do i need to use gcc to compile this file first?  (I have the
|cygwin port of
|gcc, but am unfamiliar with its use)  I tried, but it wasn't able to find
|the included header file.    While you folks are answering (or not) I'll be
|trying to get lightflow to work on linux -- maybe this stuff makes more
|sense there.
|
|
|	thanx very much for any information,
|		~c
|
|
|
|_______________________________________________
|Edu-sig mailing list
|Edu-sig@python.org
|http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig



From pdx4d@teleport.com  Sat Feb  3 01:51:52 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 17:51:52 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] kids programming: math, robotics, language &
 learning
In-Reply-To: <B3A0B27109A7D111805300A0C99AACD5B84FB6@TBURGCOMM>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010202175152.00ac79c0@pop.teleport.com>

At 01:27 PM 02/02/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>This is a 'cross-post" of an item I put up on the math-teach forum at which
>I was first introduced to this forum by Mr. Kirby Urner. I'm pleased to have
>discovered you folks and would be as interested in your perspectives on my
>comments as I am in those of math teachers.

Good post Daryl.  My pleasure to respond at
http://www.mathforum.com/epigone/math-teach/braquayyon

Have you had a chance to use Python much? I know you're
using Windows 98 -- no problem.  Thanks to Python's port
to the Windows OS, it has achieved a far greater following
than were it only available to the *nix folks.  WinOS gets
some credit for Python's gaining popularity.

Kirby



From agauld@crosswinds.net  Sat Feb  3 19:21:38 2001
From: agauld@crosswinds.net (Alan Gauld)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 19:21:38 +0000
Subject: [Edu-sig] Proposing / defending Python in a curriculum
Message-ID: <3a7c5db0.610a.0@crosswinds.net>

>There is a new book, "Learn to Program Using Python,"
>by Alan Gauld that might be useful as a text.  I haven't
>seen it yet.  

It might suit but doesn't contain exercises as such at 
the end of chapters, just some general topics for consideration...

There is also an errata page set up for it at:

http://www.crosswinds.net/~agauld/book

I'm hopeful of fixing most (all?!) of the typos etc 
in the 2nd printing....

> All other books that I have seen seem to
>me to target a more sophisticated audience than I can
>expect in our introductory course.

Mine should do just fine as a first course it does not
go very deep but tries to teach basic principles first
and foremost.

If anyone does use it in an education situation I'd be interested in any feedback
via the URL above.

Alan G.


From vernier@vc.bc.ca  Tue Feb  6 23:06:10 2001
From: vernier@vc.bc.ca (Bruno Vernier)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:06:10 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] self within re.sub
Message-ID: <20010206150610.D18163@vc.bc.ca>

Hello again,

I am stuck with this issue while building the python embeded wiki pages:

how do I pass "self" to the  method in re.sub and keep the match variable?

here is the simplified code:

rpython = rexec.REexec()

sub process(match):
   ctag = match.groups()
   # process here requires stuff from self, 
   #   namely rpython.r_eval(content of py element)
   return #evaluated python or latex snippets

pattern = '(py|python|latex|sql)'
tag = re.compile(pattern)
text = "<py>x=3;y=2</py> <latex>\x</latex> <py>x=4</py> <latex>\x</latex>"
text = tag.sub(process,text)



THE PROBLEM is that last line. The above works but if I want to avoid GLOBAL
variables (which I do because this is in a zope environment and if I use
globals, simultaneous connections cause the variable to step over itself), I
need to pass SELF to process.

if I use: 

text(tag,process(self or any arguments),text))

then that works too but I lose the match variable.  In other words, I am
forced to choose between the match or any other arguments.  

Why can't I have them both?  I've struggled with this for 2 month, searched
high and low on the internet and found vaguely similar problems being described
but no solution proposed.

p.s. I know I can use re.sub("pattern",method(arguments),text) but this is
not suitable because the order of processing matters in this case ... so I
need it all in one method.  Am I making sense?   The above snippet needs to
display a 3 and then a 4.  Doing it with re.sub would cause a 4 and then a 4.


explanation:  I want to parse <python> elements and then display the
variables processed by a restricted python environment into <latex> elements
by re-using the same REexec object (which is accessible only via self)


it works well with global variables  on
http://ess.vancouver.bc.ca/zope/bruno/eduml but not when many students are
accessing these zope pages at the same time ... because they somehow share
these global variables for a split second.

Bruno


From vernier@vc.bc.ca  Tue Feb  6 23:58:33 2001
From: vernier@vc.bc.ca (Bruno Vernier)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:58:33 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] self within re.sub
In-Reply-To: "Bruno Vernier"
References: <20010206150610.D18163@vc.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20010206155833.H18163@vc.bc.ca>

Continuation...


here is a standalone python program that causes no error messages but does
not do what I expect it to do:

-----------------------------------------------

import re,rexec
r = rexec.RExec()

def dothis(r,ctag,content,otag):
   print content
   r.r_exec("""a="%s" """%content)
   return "eval to:%s "%r.r_eval('a') 


c='asdf'
a=r'(?ims)<(py|que)>(.*?)</(\1)>'
text="<py>do this</py><que>a</que>"
print re.sub(a,dothis(r,r'\1',r'\2',r'\3'),text)

------------------------------------------------

The trouble is that \1, \2, \3 are like pointers, not the actual match
while it is in the method dothis. So it does not process the content.

BUT, it I use a compiled regular expression and  rexp.sub(dothis,text) then
it does work but I lose access to r (the restricted python environment)

You could argue:  why not put r inside the dothis function.  Yes this would
work but then I cannot have make use of previous python calculations within
the same wikipage.

Bruno


From ryanbooz@alumni.psu.edu  Wed Feb  7 16:20:01 2001
From: ryanbooz@alumni.psu.edu (Ryan Booz)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 11:20:01 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Beginner programs?
Message-ID: <3A8175B1.D23A7E6D@alumni.psu.edu>

Hello everyone,

I've been hanging out on the fringes for a while.  I just started
teaching python to a group of ten students, in a small school that has
never offered programing before.  Thus far, it's very exciting to see
the students be spurred on by quick success they have with the language.

Now I'm getting to the point of trying to come up with problems
(programs) that are challenging for the students but let them use the
tools they have thus far.  I'm mostly following the introduction scheme
of "How to think like a computer programmer - Python version".  I saw
that a while back there was some thought of collecting a group of
exercises for class use.  My first thought, since we just got finished
with functions and logic statements, was to work on a basic calculator
and then maybe a hangman kind of game.

So I'm asking (again kind of) if there are any resources for beginner
problems to be solved through programming - realizing that most of these
kids are not college mathematicians.  Second, I took my first try at the
calculator program and it works mostly.  Remember, I'm just learning
also... the old "keep a day ahead" kind of teaching.

Second, I am opening myself up and asking for thoughts on the simple
calculator program I wrote.  I'll include the code below, and would like
to get any comments you have to offer.  If I'm going to use it as an
example, I want to make sure it's a decent one.

Thanks for any help and thoughts you can give.  This is a new venture,
and I want the students to learn good habits, be successful, and
encourage the administration to continue this offering.

Sincerely,
Ryan Booz
Tech Coordinator
Belleville Mennonite School

----------------  Calculator program ----------------------
# This is a simple Calculator for our Python Class
#
# First each of the functions for manipulating the two numbers is
defined

def addition(x,y):
 global new
 new = x+y
 print "The sum of",x,"and",y,"is",new

def subtraction(x,y):
 global new
 new = x-y
 print "The difference of",x,"and",y,"is",new

def multiply(x,y):
 global new
 new = x*y
 print "The product of",x,"and",y,"is",new

def divide(x,y):
 global new
 new = x/y
 print "The qoutiant of",x,"and",y,"is",new
#
# This is the first function that actually asks for the first two
numbers.  It is called only once.
# Once the two numbers are given, the function calls the decision making
function 'desc()'
#
def new_num():
 x=input("What is the first number you would like to use? ")
 y=input("What is the second number you would like to use? ")
 desc(x,y)

#
# The inital input function calls this function which simply determins
what the user
# wants to do. Then if calls the correct manipulation function which
actually does the calculation
#
def desc(x,y):
 compute=raw_input("Would you like
to:\nAdd(a)\nSubtract(s)\nMultiply(m)\nor Divide(d)")
 calc(x,y,compute)

#
# Here's the function that calls the appropriate calculation function
# ***Important to notice***
# Once each calculation is done, that part of this function calls the
last
# function which asks if the user wants to do something further to the
new number
#
def calc(x,y,compute):
 global new
 if compute=="a":
  addition(x,y)
  sec_num(new)
 elif compute=="s":
  subtraction(x,y)
  sec_num(new)
 elif compute=="m":
  multiply(x,y)
  sec_num(new)
 elif compute=="d":
  divide(x,y)
  sec_num(new)
 else:
  print "You need to choose one of the four options!"
  desc()
#
# This is the function that asks if the user wants to do anything more
with the new number
# It then calls the decision function again if they answer yes
#
def sec_num(new):
 choice=raw_input("Do you want work with a new second number (y or n)?
")
 if choice == "y":
  second_num=input("What is the new number you would like to work with?
")
  desc(new,second_num)
 else:
  return

# This is where the program actually starts.  Once it gets going, it all
runs between the
# functions

print "This is a simple calculator.  You will input two numbers and then
have the\ncomputer add, subtract, multiply, or divide the two
numbers.\nThen you will have a chance to continue your calulations"
print
new_num()

# When they get a chance to do another calculation, if they answer 'no'
# then the program exits the functions and prints the following line

print
print "Thanks for using the program!"



From pdx4d@teleport.com  Wed Feb  7 17:19:59 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 09:19:59 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Beginner programs?
In-Reply-To: <3A8175B1.D23A7E6D@alumni.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010207091959.00a43790@pop3.norton.antivirus>

I think the calculator program is useful for teaching
syntax and programming concepts, but I'm not sure it's
a great way to introduce Python, since you can use it
as a calculator interactively "out of the box".  Most
the calculator demos w/ Python are really about teaching
the Tkinter API -- how to do a graphical/GUI interface,
but that's not what you're doing here.

Anyway, I just hope your students don't get the idea 
that they have to program a calculator in order to get
the benefits of a calculator in Python.  No doubt you
make this clear.

Simple series and sequences are not college level math.
Taking averages, summing 2nd powers or consecutive 
integers -- that's middle school content.  Writing a 
Fraction class to handle fractions in p/q format (as 
tuples) is another fun little project (duplicates a 
feature many calculators _do_ have, but which Python 
doesn't, unless you program it that way (many modules 
out there)).  I've got one too:
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/python/functions.html#Fraction

I think when it comes to teaching Python, you need to 
have some source code that already does some fairly 
interesting stuff which you then dissect, i.e. students
learn to read working source and understand what it's
doing before they try to tackle coding a program of 
similar complexity ab initio.  Reading well-written code 
and understanding why it works is an important aspect of
learning to program.

Kirby



From ryanbooz@alumni.psu.edu  Wed Feb  7 17:42:02 2001
From: ryanbooz@alumni.psu.edu (Ryan Booz)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 12:42:02 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Beginner programs?
References: <3.0.3.32.20010207091959.00a43790@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <3A8188EA.ABBD8BB1@alumni.psu.edu>

Kirby,

Thanks for the comments.  I really appreciate it.  Just for
clarification...

> I think the calculator program is useful for teaching
> syntax and programming concepts...

This was purely my intent.  We've done plenty with using the
mathematical abilities of the language so far.  I'm just "thinking off
the top of my head" about programs they will understand and we can sit
and come up with logical approaches to coding them

> Most the calculator demos w/ Python are really about teaching
> the Tkinter API -- how to do a graphical/GUI interface,
> but that's not what you're doing here.
>

Actually, my thought was eventually to take this and head that
direction.  It will be a while before we get to Tk, but that's one of
the goals.

> Anyway, I just hope your students don't get the idea
> that they have to program a calculator in order to get
> the benefits of a calculator in Python.  No doubt you
> make this clear.
>

Understood.  I think I have been.  But point well taken.

> Simple series and sequences are not college level math.
> Taking averages, summing 2nd powers or consecutive
> integers -- that's middle school content.  Writing a
> Fraction class to handle fractions in p/q format (as
> tuples) is another fun little project (duplicates a
> feature many calculators _do_ have, but which Python
> doesn't, unless you program it that way (many modules
> out there)).  I've got one too:
> http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/python/functions.html#Fraction
>
> I think when it comes to teaching Python, you need to
> have some source code that already does some fairly
> interesting stuff which you then dissect, i.e. students
> learn to read working source and understand what it's
> doing before they try to tackle coding a program of
> similar complexity ab initio.  Reading well-written code
> and understanding why it works is an important aspect of
> learning to program.

I guess that's kind of where I'm going with my original question.  I've
found a lot of examples, but they usually have many other "things"
involved in them that we just haven't gotten too in class.  Even things
that seem to be "simple" programs.  I guess I just need to keep coming
up with ideas of problems to solve that will fit the knowledge we have
at any given point and then present them to the class for discussion.
Thanks again.

Ryan





From sabren@manifestation.com  Wed Feb  7 18:05:45 2001
From: sabren@manifestation.com (Michal Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:05:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Edu-sig] Beginner programs?
In-Reply-To: <3A8175B1.D23A7E6D@alumni.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10102071301270.17440-100000@chi.pair.com>

On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Ryan Booz wrote:

> Second, I am opening myself up and asking for thoughts on the simple
> calculator program I wrote.  I'll include the code below, and would like
> to get any comments you have to offer.  If I'm going to use it as an
> example, I want to make sure it's a decent one.

One thought.. Perhaps when you introduce OOP, you could rewrite this
as a subclass of the class in the cmd module. It would simplify your
code quite a bit, I think... You'd be able to do stuff like:

calc> 5
5
calc> add 5
10
calc> sub 2
8
calc> help
==============================
commands:
==============================
add       sub     mul     div
calc> help add
...


Cheers,

- Michal
------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.manifestation.com  www.sabren.net  www.linkwatcher.com  www.zike.net
------------------------------------------------------------------------



From pdx4d@teleport.com  Wed Feb  7 18:17:19 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 10:17:19 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Beginner programs?
In-Reply-To: <3A8188EA.ABBD8BB1@alumni.psu.edu>
References: <3.0.3.32.20010207091959.00a43790@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010207101719.00898100@pop3.norton.antivirus>

>I guess that's kind of where I'm going with my original question.  I've
>found a lot of examples, but they usually have many other "things"
>involved in them that we just haven't gotten too in class.  Even things
>that seem to be "simple" programs.  I guess I just need to keep coming
>up with ideas of problems to solve that will fit the knowledge we have
>at any given point and then present them to the class for discussion.
>Thanks again.
>
>Ryan

What I would suggest is you find out what these same students are 
learning in other course work, and try to play off that.  Allude
to their other subjects or tackle them directly.  Whatever they're
doing in math these days, do something in the same ballpark in 
Python.  But you needn't limit yourself to math.  There should 
be some angles on other subjects as well, e.g. if they're reading
a novel, copy a paragraph from it and encrypt it (simple letter
substitution), or if they're learning some history, try to figure
out how many days have passed since some event (e.g. 30,423).
I dunno, use your imagination.  The idea is to have what's 
going on in programming reinforce whatever content is already
filtering through their minds anyway.  That definitely includes
whatever they're learning in math, but there's no need to limit
your scope to that exclusively.

Kirby



From jdnier@execpc.com  Wed Feb  7 18:17:08 2001
From: jdnier@execpc.com (David Niergarth)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 12:17:08 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] self within re.sub
In-Reply-To: <20010206150610.D18163@vc.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <B6A6ED44.17AC%jdnier@execpc.com>

on 2/6/01 5:06 PM, Bruno Vernier at vernier@vc.bc.ca wrote:

> I am stuck with this issue while building the python embeded wiki pages:
> 
> how do I pass "self" to the  method in re.sub and keep the match variable?
>
> here is the simplified code:
> 
> rpython = rexec.REexec()
> 
> sub process(match):
> ctag = match.groups()
> # process here requires stuff from self,
> #   namely rpython.r_eval(content of py element)
> return #evaluated python or latex snippets
> 
> pattern = '(py|python|latex|sql)'
> tag = re.compile(pattern)
> text = "<py>x=3;y=2</py> <latex>\x</latex> <py>x=4</py> <latex>\x</latex>"
> text = tag.sub(process,text)

If I understand what your asking... You can pass the rpython instance into
the replace function as a default argument. For example,

  text = tag.sub(lambda m, instance=rpython: process(m, instance), text)

and change process() to expect a second argument. If the instance exists
before you define process(), you could skip the lambda and define process as

  def process(match, instance=rpython):
      # do useful stuff
      return # evaluated python or latex snippets

  text = tag.sub(process, text)

Also, Python 2.1alpha2 has added nested scopes, which should allow you to
avoid having to use default arguments. See
http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0227.html for details.

--David



From rhseabrook@mail.aacc.cc.md.us  Wed Feb  7 21:16:24 2001
From: rhseabrook@mail.aacc.cc.md.us (Richard H. C. Seabrook)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 13:16:24 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Assignments and projects
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010207130824.00a7d040@mail.aacc.cc.md.us>

We kicked off a Programming in Python class this semester based on Lutz & 
Ascher's "Learning Python", ORA 1999.  I have two assignments based on 
Chapters 1 and 2  and Chapters 3 and 4, respectively in case anyone's 
interested.
I have several programming projects in various stages of completion as well.

Dick S.

-
   rhseabrook@mail.aacc.cc.md.us
  Anne  Arundel  Community  College
  (410)541-2424    ***    Speed the net!
  http://enterprise.aacc.cc.md.us/~rhs





From spirou@carolo.com  Wed Feb  7 18:23:59 2001
From: spirou@carolo.com (Denis)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:23:59 +0100
Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: [Grail-interest] Help: TypeError: append requires exactly 1 argument; 2 given
In-Reply-To: <F162FsAitVGeSJIEoPX00006c91@hotmail.com>; from brainboy_007@hotmail.com on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 04:53:51PM -0500
References: <F162FsAitVGeSJIEoPX00006c91@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010207192359.F22523@carolo.com>

Le Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 04:53:51PM -0500, A C pianota:
> looked at the mailing list and tryed the solution and
> I still have the same error
> 
> File "C:\Python\grail-0.6\Stylesheet.py", line 45, in load
>     massaged.append(((g, c), v % fparms_dict))
> TypeError: append requires exactly 1 argument; 2 given
> 
> Just want to use Grail!!

I can understand, I would love to see Grail's development
go on, if not to compete with Mozilla, at least as a 
wonderful tool on intranets and specially for educational
purpose (that's why I crossposted on edu-sig).

I don't know Grail's code. But I've looked at your problem
since this list is deader than a pork.


I run Grail on a Linux machine, with Python 1.5.2 and it
just goes right. In my Grail's version (0.6), I had the
old bad :

    list.append((x, y), z) 

code. I changed it for the following lines :

    # Map the selected font and size onto the fonts group:
    fonts = self.prefs.GetGroup('styles-fonts')
    massaged = []
    for ((g, c), v) in fonts:
        massaged.append(((g, c), v % fparms_dict))
    self.dictify_group(massaged)

that is :

    list.append(((x, y), z))

and (of course) Grail restarted just fine. If you see a
diff between your and my version, tell me !

It should be a unique tuple argument composed of a tuple
and a string. I can't see how Python keeps complaining.
(I definitely should have a deeper look at Python 2)

The only good advice I can give you : install Debian ;-)

Trying to help,
-- 
Denis FRERE
P3B    : Club Free-Pytho-Linuxien Caroloregien http://www.p3b.org
Aragne : Internet - Reseaux - Formations  http://www.aragne.com


From Jonathan Pennington <john@coastalgeology.org>  Thu Feb  8 01:57:20 2001
From: Jonathan Pennington <john@coastalgeology.org> (Jonathan Pennington)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:57:20 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Beginner programs?
Message-ID: <20010207205720.G51273@coastalgeology.org>

You'd think I'd know better. Accidently sent this to Kirby.

----- Forwarded message from Jonathan Pennington <john@coastalgeology.org> -----
* Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com> [010207 13:40]:
> What I would suggest is you find out what these same students are 
> learning in other course work, and try to play off that.  Allude
> to their other subjects or tackle them directly.  Whatever they're
> doing in math these days, do something in the same ballpark in 
> Python.  But you needn't limit yourself to math.  There should 

This is similiar to what I would suggest. I take an upper level
petrology class that consists mostly of thermodynamics and
calculus. There are a lot of problems that we have to work out on
paper again and again, plugging numbers into the same equation for
different compositions, depths, heat sources, etc.

I've started teaching a few fellow students to program, and use this
as our base. We sit down, figure out the program, work it once or
twice on paper, then step through a small program that will crunch the
same equation, plug those results into this series, etc. I can't guage
right now exactly how effectively it works, but those with whom I'm
working are beginning to see a *relevance* which, in turn, builds an
interest. They've started asking questions like "Hey John, can I write
a program to build-widget-text-stuff-yada?" And I always say "Sure,
you got a minute?"

I'm hoping to do the same thing at the middle school, where I have
both 7-8th grade students and faculty in the same class. My plan is to
start with some text/number processing to introduce variables, lists,
etc (couple classes, maybe class/each main topic), 
then begin on a final project that the
students will be able to take with them and use. One student is a
librarian, and want's some stuff to help her work (cataloging,
processing, etc), so she'll do that. The rest can work on a different
project too (if they feel comfortable) or the main project which is a
mailer program for email (SMTP/POP stuff will be abstracted from most,
and we'll start with opening text files first. 

The mailer program is a good idea to me,
because it can be extremely simple (parse out the header using the
first blank line as a break) to incredibly complicated (uh, yeah).

No full plans yet, meeting with principal tomarrow to discuss times,
etc. The plan I do have is to run it like a lecture-less lab. After I
feel they understand the basics, we'll do some excercises pertaining
to the project and the rabbits will be allowed to sprint (and help
others) while I "teach" (read: help) here and there. Important to keep
the options open for all, so people who pick up will be able to
ignore/half-listen to my lectures to the ones who are having a harder
time. Nothing I hate more than being forced into a snails pace of
learning by the teacher- except being forced into a too fast pace.

Don't know if this idea helps, thought I'd add it. My main thrust is
to work (only?) on tasks that are relevant, or interesting. No parsing
strings just to do it, we'll parse a string when we *need* to, so that
it matters. That's ideal, we'll see about the real.

-J
-- 
Jonathan Pennington		| http://coastalgeology.org
Site Manager			| Protection and stewardship
CoastalGeology.Org (CGO)	| through public education.
john@coastalgeology.org		| Join CGO, make a difference.
----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Jonathan Pennington		| http://coastalgeology.org
Site Manager			| Protection and stewardship
CoastalGeology.Org (CGO)	| through public education.
john@coastalgeology.org		| Join CGO, make a difference.


From vernier@vc.bc.ca  Thu Feb  8 16:17:11 2001
From: vernier@vc.bc.ca (Bruno Vernier)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:17:11 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] self within re.sub
In-Reply-To: "David Niergarth"
References: <20010206150610.D18163@vc.bc.ca> <B6A6ED44.17AC%jdnier@execpc.com>
Message-ID: <20010208081711.Z18163@vc.bc.ca>

On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 12:17:08PM -0600, David Niergarth wrote:

> If I understand what your asking... You can pass the rpython instance into
> the replace function as a default argument. For example,
> 
>   text = tag.sub(lambda m, instance=rpython: process(m, instance), text)
> 
> and change process() to expect a second argument. If the instance exists
> before you define process(), you could skip the lambda and define process as
> 
>   def process(match, instance=rpython):
>       # do useful stuff
>       return # evaluated python or latex snippets
> 
>   text = tag.sub(process, text)


Thank you very very much!  It works. :-)  

Bruno


From brainboy_007@hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 19:43:16 2001
From: brainboy_007@hotmail.com (A C)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 14:43:16 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: [Grail-interest] Help: TypeError: append requires exactly 1 argument; 2 given
Message-ID: <F67qhA53ZpEVmkWFBXZ0000dfbc@hotmail.com>

I just downloaded a more stable Python 2.0 and now Grail works :).

Ari "Brainboy_007"

P.S. I would like to see more volume on list.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com



From agauld@crosswinds.net  Fri Feb  9 18:04:06 2001
From: agauld@crosswinds.net (Alan Gauld)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:04:06 +0000
Subject: [Edu-sig] Beginner programs?
Message-ID: <3a84326e.25f2.0@crosswinds.net>

>with functions and logic statements, was to work 
> on a basic calculator and then maybe a hangman 
> kind of game.

Which almost forces me(:-) to point out that my book 
contains a complete worked example of a games 
framework using hangman as the final example. 
But it does prototype the game first without 
any OO stuff. I intend putting the source on 
the 'useless python' site once I comment it
(for the book the comments were in the text...)

The chapter in question also suggests some other games 
that fir the framework - minesweeper, mastermind, 
rock,paper, scissors...

Speaking of which the 'useless python' site may be a rich source of ideas...


Alan G.


From pdx4d@teleport.com  Tue Feb 13 18:08:23 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:08:23 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] More from the MathCenter
In-Reply-To: <3a84326e.25f2.0@crosswinds.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010213100823.00b49100@pop3.norton.antivirus>

[ 

below is my most recent post to math-learn, clearly a 
response to something earlier -- but with enough standalone
content to give the idea.  

Earlier posts in the same thread include Python source 
code for computing Pascal's Triangle and comparing the 
results with balls randomly falling, pachinko-style, 
through a triangulated grid of pins (some of you may have 
seen the well-known science museum demo showing the bell 
curved result).

Thanks again to Tim Peters for cluing me re 'Concrete 
Mathematics' which I went out and grabbed some months ago
(if edu-sig had a search feature, I'd go find where he 
first posted about it, as an easier intro than Knuth's 
"telegraphic" 'Art of Computer Programming' -- and indeed, 
that's how this text evolved, from notes around the 
mathematical preliminaries leading into Knuth's magnum 
opus).

I'm cross-posting this here as a snap-shot of my ongoing
effort to combine the math learning process with a 
strong programming element, to create a hybrid more 
adapted to life in the 21st century.  The mass-education
juggernaut has too much inertia to steer in this new 
direction any time soon, but there's always the hope 
that more alert passengers will jump overboard and swim 
for their lives :-D (good to have this alternative more
seaworthy craft in the vicinity, given the more 
conventional curriculum simply isn't).

complete thread: 
http://www.mathforum.com/epigone/math-learn/snoipumkhee 

Kirby

]



Subject:      [math-learn] Re: Intro to Probability
Author:       pdx4d@teleport.com
Date:         Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:33:03 -0000


> So the short way to write (n-k+1)! is just n!/(n-k)! as
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> that cancels all terms except n(n-1)(n-2)..(n-k+1).

Right, a typo, thanks to a close reader for catching that.  What I 
wanted to express with (n-k+1)! were the k terms in n(n-1)...(n-k+1), 
but of course these aren't equivalent. What I need is notation to 
expressing a "falling factorial" running for k terms, and, indeed, 
such notation is offered in 'Concrete Mathematics' by Graham Knuth 
and Patashnik (Addison-Wesley, 1994), pp 47-48.

The notation can't easily be written in ascii unfortunately, but
"n to the m falling" is written [n to the m-underbar].  With "n to
the m rising" = [n to the m_overbar].  "These functions are also
called 'falling factorial powers' and 'rising factorial powers',
since they are closely related to the factorial function n! =
n(n-1)...(1).  In fact n! = [n to the n-underbar] = [1 to the n-
overbar]."

So anyway, what I should have written was [n to the k-underbar].

This book 'Concrete Mathematics' I've mentioned before on math-teach,
as exemplary of what I'm aiming for at the college level with my 
K-12 curriculum writing.  It's used for computer science students 
a lot, but it's also just a fine introduction to a lot of concrete 
(not too abstract) mathematics, including discrete probability, 
binomial coefficients and elementary number theory.

I'm also trying to boost geometry content, by moving 'Beyond 
Flatland' (off the plane) -- which links to a 'Beyond Calculators'
push as well (as I haven't seen many rotating polyhedra on 
calculator screens -- though maybe these have appeared in Japan
by this time, a market typically ahead of the USA's in the 
calculator department).

As I wrote to a math educator recently by email:

   You may remember from emails past that I'm one of those 
   looking for ways to incorporate more of Bucky Fuller's 
   contributions into early math ed.  I also push a "math
   through programming" approach, and converge it with the
   Fuller-informed spatial geometry.  "Beyond Flatland" and 
   "Beyond Calculators" summarize my two pronged strategy 
   to revamp math ed pedagogy.

   I've just put up a new essay, well-illustrated, which 
   looks at the "Beyond Flatland" approach:
   http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/overview.html

   And here's a review of my "Beyond Calculators" initiative:
   http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/python/2000/10/04/pythonnews.html

Kirby




From pdx4d@teleport.com  Tue Feb 13 22:05:38 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:05:38 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] testing
In-Reply-To: <3a84326e.25f2.0@crosswinds.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010213140538.03967a10@pop3.norton.antivirus>

It's been some hours since I posted something -- thought
I'd run a test...



From delza@antarcti.ca  Thu Feb 15 03:11:54 2001
From: delza@antarcti.ca (Dethe Elza)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:11:54 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Active Essays
Message-ID: <011201c096fd$0cbd51c0$60294c18@poco1.bc.wave.home.com>

There's a wonderful piece by Mitchel Resnick and Brian Silverman called
Exploring Emergence
(http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/projects/emergence/index.html). They
use java applets
on each page to illustrate and allow the reader to explore the concepts in
the text.  My wife (who
I use as my token non-techie to evaluate these things) not only "got it"
immediately, she got hooked
on playing with it, and started generating ideas for new/similar programming
gadgets.

When I struggled to read Bucky Fuller's Synergetics some years ago, I found
myself wishing for
something very much like this.  It's nice to see some progress being made to
incorporate
executable code in narrative streams to explain/explore complex subjects.

--Dethe



From pdx4d@teleport.com  Sun Feb 18 07:19:19 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:19:19 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Active Essays
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010217231919.00b95e40@pop3.norton.antivirus>

>When I struggled to read Bucky Fuller's Synergetics some years ago, 
>I found myself wishing for something very much like this.  It's nice 
>to see some progress being made to incorporate executable code in 
>narrative streams to explain/explore complex subjects.
>
>--Dethe

I agree, and forwarded the URL to a bevy of geometers I know,
with credit to yourself:

  "Dethe on edu-sig (Python) clued me re this "active essay",
   which uses Java applets to make its points:
   http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/projects/emergence/index.html
   ..."

As per synergetics and applets, you'll find an example on:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domegeo.html
(source linked from http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/javafreq.html)

Here's the first Java applet I ever put on the web (check
boxes have a mind of their own unless you choose the 'manual' 
radio button first): 
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/javavols.html

There's also Javascript:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/exhibit1.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/exhibit2.html

And let's not forget my "spooky castle" jitterbug transformation
at http://members.xoom.com/Urner/movies/ghostjit.mpg

So far, I've only used Python + Povray or Python + VRML at
my website.  The idea of using Jython with Java3D is just an
idea (for me).  Nor have I done anything with Python + OpenGL
(but plan to).

The talented Mark Somers has done some of the most impressive 
Povray animations.  I've you've got the time or fast connection,
watch the animated GIF at:
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/synergetica/gctrain.html

Kirby




From Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com  Sun Feb 18 15:42:16 2001
From: Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com (Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:42:16 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] Active Essays
Message-ID: <004B9BBA.N22121@rsmi.com>

>The idea of using Jython with Java3D is just an
>idea (for me).  Nor have I done anything with Python + OpenGL
>(but plan to).


Kirby - 

I also encourage you to take another look at the VPython possibilities,
as I did yesterday.

As Dethe already mentioned, it now comes in an extremely small footprint
flavor - you can in fact (I believe) limit it to the install of the cvisual.dll

and you
have a well documented, good performance 3d rendering engine for Python.
Even has a pre-built add-on module for Povray output.  

The latest  challenge I set for myself with PyGeo is to  more clearly 
seperate the analytics from the rendering back-end (thanks to Steve Morris,
for the suggestion).  My way of learning to program.  Set a goal, find some 
brains to pick, and plod forward  Here Piddle seems a likely brain, to pick, 
as I believe it was structured for plug-in rendering.  There are a just a few 
fancier things I do with PyGeo using the OpenGL API  - most notable a 
Projection class - which from a 3d point of view is really just a form of
defined shadows, but which took a low-level manipulation of the matrix stack.
Haven't figured out a way to get it done with Lightflow, but since VPython
is open-source, worst case scenario I learn a little more about C extensions
and add what I need at the level.

Is this fun, or what?

ART
 



From pdx4d@teleport.com  Sun Feb 18 19:01:30 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:01:30 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Active Essays
In-Reply-To: <004B9BBA.N22121@rsmi.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010218110130.00b85db0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

At 09:42 AM 02/18/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>>The idea of using Jython with Java3D is just an
>>idea (for me).  Nor have I done anything with Python + OpenGL
>>(but plan to).
>
>
>Kirby - 
>
>I also encourage you to take another look at the VPython possibilities,
>as I did yesterday.

I think this is very good advice.  I've been reading the docs and
look forward to using it.

At the moment, I'm just using Python 2.1 on my computer, no other
version, and VPython won't install correctly (nor Numeric).  But
I think we're within a couple/three weeks of having a "together
platform" again on my end.

In the meantime, I'm seeing if I can add VRML and LiveGraphics3D 
output formats to my polyhedron nesting utility (the one I keep
writing over and over, in Xbase, Java, Python...).  I'm still 
piggy-backing on Qhull, which lets me toss out a lot of vertices
and get them back nicely wired into faces (polygons), from which
the edges also derive.  This saves me a lot of work (manully 
wiring up the vertices).

Fun fun!

Kirby



From pdx4d@teleport.com  Fri Feb 16 18:23:25 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:23:25 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Active Essays
In-Reply-To: <011201c096fd$0cbd51c0$60294c18@poco1.bc.wave.home.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010216102325.00a42100@pop3.norton.antivirus>

>When I struggled to read Bucky Fuller's Synergetics some years ago, 
>I found myself wishing for something very much like this.  It's nice 
>to see some progress being made to incorporate executable code in 
>narrative streams to explain/explore complex subjects.
>
>--Dethe

I agree, and forwarded the URL to a bevy of geometers I know,
with credit to yourself:

  "Dethe on edu-sig (Python) clued me re this "active essay",
   which uses Java applets to make its points:
   http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/projects/emergence/index.html
   ..."

As per synergetics and applets, you'll find an example on:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domegeo.html
(source linked from http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/javafreq.html)

Here's the first Java applet I ever put on the web (check
boxes have a mind of their own unless you choose the 'manual' 
radio button first): 
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/javavols.html

There's also Javascript:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/exhibit1.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/exhibit2.html

And let's not forget my "spooky castle" jitterbug transformation
at http://members.xoom.com/Urner/movies/ghostjit.mpg

So far, I've only used Python + Povray or Python + VRML at
my website.  The idea of using Jython with Java3D is just an
idea (for me).  Nor have I done anything with Python + OpenGL
(but plan to).

The talented Mark Somers has done some of the most impressive 
Povray animations.  I've you've got the time or fast connection,
watch the animated GIF at:
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/synergetica/gctrain.html

Kirby




From Arthinator@aol.com  Sat Feb 24 15:31:39 2001
From: Arthinator@aol.com (Arthinator@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:31:39 EST
Subject: [Edu-sig] Advanced geometry in Python
Message-ID: <a9.121a4b52.27c92ddb@aol.com>

Looks interesting:

http://thames.northnet.org/weeks/index/SnapPea.html


>SnapPea is a program for creating and studying hyperbolic 3-manifolds.

For PyGeo graduates, of course

>A partially complete version of SnapPea 3.0 is now available. Thanks to 
Nathan >Dunfield's advice and assistance, SnapPea 3.0 is accessible via 
Python scripts >as well as through a traditional graphical user interface. 
(With luck this >Python/Tk SnapPea will eventually run on Macs and PCs as 
well as Linux >boxes.) 

My Linux hole crops up again, so I have not gotten a look
a SnapPea's Python scripting capabilities as yet. So just giving
a cite to what looks like a serious geometry exploration tool,
reachable by Python. As it should be.

It becoming more and more commonplace to be pursuing
an interest unrelated to my interest in Python and finding Python. 

ART  (from my wife's AOL account)


From pdx4d@teleport.com  Mon Feb 26 08:39:04 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 00:39:04 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Update re what I've been up to...
In-Reply-To: <a9.121a4b52.27c92ddb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010226003904.00b15100@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Greetings fellow Pythoneers --

I've continued to haunt math teacher lists seeking to spark
some interest in graduating from TI-ville (Texas Instruments
rules the roost in early math ed these days).  I try to show
how Python can be used convergently with traditional math
language to create an interesting hybrid, more robust and
relevant to this day and age.  Old hat around here (plus we
went down this road with Logo, BASIC et al... but we can go
further with Python).

Anyway, my most recent forays into some of the group theory 
stuff are linked from the very bottom of my 'We Shall Overcome' 
"manifesto" at http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/overcome.html
There's nothing extraordinary about the group stuff (maybe let
me know if you find any goofs), but I show how list comprehension,
object syntax, and operator overriding all make a lot of sense
in this context, with the code remaining pretty short and light
(not writing any GUIs here, just simple command line stuff 
in IDLE, using very basic parts of the Standard Library, plus 
subject-relevant modules).  The Python is very simple, in other
words, as is the math (that's by design -- trying to keep the
gradient realistic).

Also, in projects of a more geometric nature, I've gotten my 
polyhedra to spit out in Graphics3D format, meaning I can 
take advantage of the LiveGraphics3D Java 1.1 applet by 
Martin Kraus (he and I have been in touch).  For an example 
of this applet pulling from a file written by my Python 
source code, see:

http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/polynest.html

The corresponding VRML view comes from the same source code
(not on the web yet), and is linked from the above page.

That's it for now.  This is all more of the usual from my 
corner -- the same kinda stuff I've been doing since my first
post to edu-sig (but I think incrementally better as I keep 
going through the iterations).

Kirby

PS:  as a sometime Windows user, I was happy to find CosmoPlayer
back on-line, a fine VRML plug-in that disappeared off the 
Windows radar after SGI bought it -- but now it's back under
the Computer Associates brand: http://www.cai.com/cosmo/
This is the only viewer I've so far used to check polynest.wrl,
which works best with a white background (but VRML 1.0 left 
out a background color specification, leaving this non-standard,
so maybe others will get a black background... etc. etc.).




From urban.anjar@hik.se  Mon Feb 26 09:34:43 2001
From: urban.anjar@hik.se (Urban Anjar)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:34:43 +0100
Subject: [Edu-sig] Beginner programs?
References: <3A8175B1.D23A7E6D@alumni.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <3A9A2333.D14C5EB3@hik.se>

Ryan Booz wrote:
 
> Now I'm getting to the point of trying to come up with problems
> (programs) that are challenging for the students but let them use the
> tools they have thus far.  I'm mostly following the introduction scheme
> of "How to think like a computer programmer - Python version".  I saw
> that a while back there was some thought of collecting a group of
> exercises for class use.  My first thought, since we just got finished
> with functions and logic statements, was to work on a basic calculator
> and then maybe a hangman kind of game.
> 

Have a look at http://www.bom.hik.se/~nanur/glospgm/ it is a "kit" for
beginning to make a program for studying words in a foreign language.

The text is in swedish (sorry) but the code should be understandable???

The exemples tries to teach a stepwise refinement way of designing a
program. It begins with a very short but somhow working piece of code.
More features are added in the later versions.

---

Games could be an interesting field too, try Nim or Tic-tac-toe too Or
a simple version of the classic Adventure-game.

In biology you could try to simulate some simple population dynamics?

---

Reading code and trying to improve it (or get rid of some bugs you
easily
can plant) is another good idea. Is there any place where one can find
small, more or less trivial (but well coded) Python programs for that
purpouse?

Urban


From fred@ontosys.com  Mon Feb 26 15:52:48 2001
From: fred@ontosys.com (Fred Yankowski)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:52:48 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] diSessa's "computational media", and Boxer
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010226003904.00b15100@pop3.norton.antivirus>; from pdx4d@teleport.com on Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 12:39:04AM -0800
References: <a9.121a4b52.27c92ddb@aol.com> <3.0.3.32.20010226003904.00b15100@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <20010226095247.A89350@enteract.com>

I recently read diSessa's "Changing Minds" book, based (if I recall
correctly) on a recommendation by someone on this edu-sig list.  The
book is excellent, with an extended argument for the value and
possibility of "computational literacy" and "computational media"
which should interest most edu-sig participants.

diSessa's practical experience comes from using software called
"Boxer" to teach elementary and high school students principles of
math, science, and (secondarily) programming.  The stories of how
students and teachers used Boxer form a convincing demonstration of
the value of the "computational media" approach as well as the design
of Boxer itself.

Boxer is a successor to Logo and is coded internally in Lisp.  It was
originally available only on Lisp workstation machines (I think), but
was later ported to the Macintosh.  Unfortunately, it is not available
on PC/Win32 other than as an unreleased alpha version.

All this has nothing to do with Python, per se, but I have pondered
whether a Python version of Boxer makes sense.  The user interface of
Boxer is at once brilliant, and awkward and unfamiliar.  Boxer
applications are structured as a hierarchy of "boxes" (hence the name)
which are displayed as nested windows on a GUI screen.  Boxer's
command language, which appears as text statements inside boxes, is
based on Logo.  The user navigates around in the tree of boxes,
zooming in and out to change the focus.  Both programming and
operation are done through this same interface, directly editing the
contents of boxes.

I haven't been able to use Boxer much because I only have means to
use the PC version (no Macs around) and the PC version is alpha
quality and has some pretty big problems.  But I am fascinated by the
Boxer model, and I'd like to use it myself and make it available to my
7-year-old son.

So, if there's a point to this message, it's
  1) I recommend diSessa's "Changing Minds" book to this group.

  2) I'm wondering if anyone else here has a similar interest in
     Boxer, and would like to explore the possibility of getting a
     Boxer-like system working on the PC, perhaps using Python as the
     implementation language and a system like VPython for the
     graphical component (which I haven't discussed).

-- 
Fred Yankowski           fred@OntoSys.com      tel: +1.630.879.1312
Principal Consultant     www.OntoSys.com       fax: +1.630.879.1370
OntoSys, Inc             38W242 Deerpath Rd, Batavia, IL 60510, USA


From Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com  Mon Feb 26 20:02:18 2001
From: Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com (Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:02:18 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: diSessa's "computational media", and Boxer
Message-ID: <00504E18.N22121@rsmi.com>

Fred writes -

>I recently read diSessa's "Changing Minds" book, based (if I recall
>correctly) on a recommendation by someone on this edu-sig list.  The
>book is excellent, with an extended argument for the value and
>possibility of "computational literacy" and "computational media"
>which should interest most edu-sig participants.

Found chapters 1& 2 online in pdf at:

http://www.soe.berkeley.edu/boxer/papers.html

Shall read at least that far.

>diSessa's practical experience comes from using software called
>"Boxer" to teach elementary and high school students principles of
>math, science, and (secondarily) programming.  

Sounds like Kirby territory.

Certainly will be interesting to see how diSessa's "Changing" and Kirby's
"Overcome" takes intersect/diverge.

>The user interface of Boxer is at once brilliant, and awkward and unfamiliar.

>Boxer applications are structured as a hierarchy of "boxes" (hence the name)
>which are displayed as nested windows on a GUI screen.  Boxer's
>command language, which appears as text statements inside boxes, is
>based on Logo.  

As usual, my own take is intuitive, and experiential -  not formal and
studied.

But I do tend to resist any approach that is GUI intensive. I posted up
a SnapPea geometry exploration tool cite quite recently.  Had a fully
developed GUI, and than developed the Python scripting.  Not
an unusual progression.  Why is this happening?  Does the availabiltiy
of Python somehow supercede the reasons behind the GUI intensive
approach.  I think, in many ways, yes.  

In a GUI intensive envrionment the GUI has the upper hand, not the student.
How do you study and measure that power relationship. I accept my inituition. 
Students undertand that they are dependant on the GUI - and enthusiasm is 
sapped.  I still like the thirty line's of straight text which can be run as a

chat program
as "python chattext.py". Or is a straight-forward IDE like a IDLE.  It works, 
and is 
"real" programming  - is better than box hierarchies, talking paperclips, and 
all
down that road.  Not purer - I am not trying to be a purist.  Just have my own

sense of what get kids excited. And this is all 95% about getting kids 
motivated 
and excited. Feeling grown-up is certainly one such thing.
.  
So it is difficult in my mind for a Python educational curriculum to pick up 
much
from what came before, because in doing so one will be tending to dilute
what Python somewhat uniquely brings to the party. 


>  2) I'm wondering if anyone else here has a similar interest in
 >    Boxer, and would like to explore the possibility of getting a
 >    Boxer-like system working on the PC, perhaps using Python as the
 >   implementation language and a system like VPython for the
 >  graphical component (which I haven't discussed).

I certainly think we should indulge and excite kids by letting them get at
good graphics in the context of both math and programming education.
And do think VPython is quite well suited for that role.

ART




From fred@ontosys.com  Mon Feb 26 20:38:21 2001
From: fred@ontosys.com (Fred Yankowski)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:38:21 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] re: diSessa's "computational media", and Boxer
In-Reply-To: <00504E18.N22121@rsmi.com>; from Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com on Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:02:18PM -0600
References: <00504E18.N22121@rsmi.com>
Message-ID: <20010226143821.A57515@enteract.com>

On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:02:18PM -0600, Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com wrote:
> Found chapters 1& 2 online in pdf at:
> http://www.soe.berkeley.edu/boxer/papers.html

Thank you for that URL.  I completely forgot to provide any references
in my original message.

The first two chapters of the book outline diSessa's thesis and give
some very brief examples of Boxer, but miss some compelling stories of
how kids used Boxer.

> But I do tend to resist any approach that is GUI intensive.

I think I understand you.  I have similar preferences:

  good:  Linux /etc/whatever.conf files
  fair:  Win32 control panels, preferences, tabs, advanced options, ...

  good:  Hacking Java code in Emacs, working directly on files
  fair:  Editing methods in a VisualAge for Java GUI

  good:  Hacking Python code in Emacs, running from bash
  fair:  Editing Python code in IDLE or PythonWin

  good:  Working directly on web application script files
  fair:  Editing Zope "methods" "thru the web"

But, then again, I've been programming for over 25 years.  (Back then
we coded everything on punch cards, and we LIKED IT!)  I suspect that
my preferences for using Emacs, grep, diff, CVS, etc, might stem a
great deal from my background and not such much from any essential
superiority of that style.

Anyway, I'm looking at what might work best for absolute novice
programmers, and children in the K-8 grade range in particular.  As
much as I like Python, I'm not convinced that most students in that
range could handle it well enough.  diSessa provides convincing
evidence that Boxer does work well for such students.

I communicated recently with a teacher who has used Boxer a lot in his
classes, and he related that his son, who now does Java programming in
his job, first learned programming in Boxer and feels that it gave him
an excellent introduction to programming that made it easy to learn
Java later.

> And this is all 95% about getting kids motivated and excited.

I agree, and I think diSessa would as well.

> Feeling grown-up is certainly one such thing.

diSessa intends Boxer to be useful to "grown-ups" as well as kids.  I
think he's on the right track, and Boxer does seem to scale pretty
well, but it's currently got shortcomings -- like an unconventional
and somewhat spartan GUI -- that make it less attractive for such
ongoing use.

> So it is difficult in my mind for a Python educational curriculum to
> pick up much from what came before, because in doing so one will be
> tending to dilute what Python somewhat uniquely brings to the party.

Could be.  A Boxer-like system could be done in any implementation
language, and I don't know that Python itself would work well as the
user command language.

-- 
Fred Yankowski           fred@OntoSys.com      tel: +1.630.879.1312
Principal Consultant     www.OntoSys.com       fax: +1.630.879.1370
OntoSys, Inc             38W242 Deerpath Rd, Batavia, IL 60510, USA


From wilson@visi.com  Tue Feb 27 01:43:06 2001
From: wilson@visi.com (Timothy Wilson)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:43:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Edu-sig] Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S.
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102261924420.1150-100000@isis.visi.com>

Hi everyone,

I'm excited to report that my proposal to offer an "Introduction to Computer
Programming" course at the high school where I teach was accepted and 75
students have signed up for next fall. We're a high school of about 1500
students in the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area and I was hoping to get
enough for one section. We'll need three sections to accomodate 75
students. Unfortunately, we don't have the computer lab space currently to
offer three sections. I'm hopeful that given the obvious demand for the
course a solution can be worked out by fall.

I was initially inspired by Jeff Elkner's program at Yorktown and I know
there are others teaching Python in high schools. As someone who hasn't
taught programming before (my background is chemistry and physics), I'd
definitely be interested in pointers to whatever curriculum repositories are
available. Maybe it would be helpful to make some links to the schools that
are using Python.

Wishing-I-was-in-Long-Beach-next-week-ly yours,
Tim

--
Tim Wilson      | Visit Sibley online:         | Check out:
Henry Sibley HS | http://www.isd197.k12.mn.us/ | http://www.zope.org/
W. St. Paul, MN |                              | http://slashdot.org/
wilson@visi.com |   <dtml-var pithy_quote>     | http://linux.com/




From twhittaker@columbus.rr.com  Tue Feb 27 02:35:24 2001
From: twhittaker@columbus.rr.com (Todd Whittaker)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:35:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Edu-sig] Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102261924420.1150-100000@isis.visi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0102262134060.4553-100000@seanchan.penguinpowered.com>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Timothy Wilson wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm excited to report that my proposal to offer an "Introduction to
> Computer Programming" course at the high school where I teach was
> accepted and 75 students have signed up for next fall.
[snipped]

Do you have a URL pointing to your proposal?  I'd be really interested to
see it.

-- 
Todd

-------------------------------------------------------------
 Todd A. Whittaker  mailto:todd@thewhittakers.org
                    http://www.thewhittakers.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------



From wilson@visi.com  Tue Feb 27 13:53:34 2001
From: wilson@visi.com (Timothy Wilson)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:53:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Edu-sig] Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0102262134060.4553-100000@seanchan.penguinpowered.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102270740570.18125-100000@isis.visi.com>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Todd Whittaker wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Timothy Wilson wrote:
> 
> > I'm excited to report that my proposal to offer an "Introduction to
> > Computer Programming" course at the high school where I teach was
> > accepted and 75 students have signed up for next fall.
> [snipped]
> 
> Do you have a URL pointing to your proposal?  I'd be really interested to
> see it.

Calling it a "proposal" is probably overstating it. I simply filled out the
paperwork that every teacher fills out when they propose a new course.

The rationale for using Python won't be a surprise for any of you. Like many
others, our school only offers AP Computer Programming right now. The result
is that we only get 15 students enrolled. Not surprisingly, many students
are scared away by the prospect of their first programming experience being
in an AP class.

After hearing of Jeff's work at Yorktown and following my own positive
experience with Python, proposing a intro. course using Python was a
no-brainer. No one asked any questions about the choice of Python as the
language for the course.

Here's the little blurb I put in the student registration guide:

"This introductory course will emphasize the essentials of designing and
implementing computer programs. The curriculum will include basic
algorithms, data structures, and syntax of the Python programming
language. The second semester will introduce object-oriented
programming. Every student in the course will receive on CD, at no charge,
an electronic copy of the text, other programming manuals and tutorials, and
all the sofware required to develop complete Python programs for Windows,
Linux, or MacOS."

I'm now sure how much OOP we'll get to having never taught this before.

I'm excited about this course. I hope we can find a way to make room for
three sections.

-Tim

--
Tim Wilson      | Visit Sibley online:         | Check out:
Henry Sibley HS | http://www.isd197.k12.mn.us/ | http://www.zope.org/
W. St. Paul, MN |                              | http://slashdot.org/
wilson@visi.com |   <dtml-var pithy_quote>     | http://linux.com/




From el_negrito_1999@yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 19:02:04 2001
From: el_negrito_1999@yahoo.com (ANGEL STEELE)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:02:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig digest, Vol 1 #239 - 5 msgs
In-Reply-To: <E14XnUq-0008QO-00@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <20010227190204.12858.qmail@web3703.mail.yahoo.com>

help
--- edu-sig-request@python.org wrote:
> Send Edu-sig mailing list submissions to
> 	edu-sig@python.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> visit
> 	http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> 'help' to
> 	edu-sig-request@python.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	edu-sig-admin@python.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it
> is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Edu-sig digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. re: diSessa's "computational media", and Boxer
> (Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com)
>    2. Re: re: diSessa's "computational media", and
> Boxer (Fred Yankowski)
>    3. Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S. (Timothy
> Wilson)
>    4. Re: Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S. (Todd
> Whittaker)
>    5. Re: Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S. (Timothy
> Wilson)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:02:18 -0600
> From: Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com
> To: edu-sig@python.org 
> Subject: [Edu-sig] re: diSessa's "computational
> media", and Boxer
> 
> Fred writes -
> 
> >I recently read diSessa's "Changing Minds" book,
> based (if I recall
> >correctly) on a recommendation by someone on this
> edu-sig list.  The
> >book is excellent, with an extended argument for
> the value and
> >possibility of "computational literacy" and
> "computational media"
> >which should interest most edu-sig participants.
> 
> Found chapters 1& 2 online in pdf at:
> 
> http://www.soe.berkeley.edu/boxer/papers.html
> 
> Shall read at least that far.
> 
> >diSessa's practical experience comes from using
> software called
> >"Boxer" to teach elementary and high school
> students principles of
> >math, science, and (secondarily) programming.  
> 
> Sounds like Kirby territory.
> 
> Certainly will be interesting to see how diSessa's
> "Changing" and Kirby's
> "Overcome" takes intersect/diverge.
> 
> >The user interface of Boxer is at once brilliant,
> and awkward and unfamiliar.
> 
> >Boxer applications are structured as a hierarchy of
> "boxes" (hence the name)
> >which are displayed as nested windows on a GUI
> screen.  Boxer's
> >command language, which appears as text statements
> inside boxes, is
> >based on Logo.  
> 
> As usual, my own take is intuitive, and experiential
> -  not formal and
> studied.
> 
> But I do tend to resist any approach that is GUI
> intensive. I posted up
> a SnapPea geometry exploration tool cite quite
> recently.  Had a fully
> developed GUI, and than developed the Python
> scripting.  Not
> an unusual progression.  Why is this happening? 
> Does the availabiltiy
> of Python somehow supercede the reasons behind the
> GUI intensive
> approach.  I think, in many ways, yes.  
> 
> In a GUI intensive envrionment the GUI has the upper
> hand, not the student.
> How do you study and measure that power
> relationship. I accept my inituition. 
> Students undertand that they are dependant on the
> GUI - and enthusiasm is 
> sapped.  I still like the thirty line's of straight
> text which can be run as a
> 
> chat program
> as "python chattext.py". Or is a straight-forward
> IDE like a IDLE.  It works, 
> and is 
> "real" programming  - is better than box
> hierarchies, talking paperclips, and 
> all
> down that road.  Not purer - I am not trying to be a
> purist.  Just have my own
> 
> sense of what get kids excited. And this is all 95%
> about getting kids 
> motivated 
> and excited. Feeling grown-up is certainly one such
> thing.
> .  
> So it is difficult in my mind for a Python
> educational curriculum to pick up 
> much
> from what came before, because in doing so one will
> be tending to dilute
> what Python somewhat uniquely brings to the party. 
> 
> 
> >  2) I'm wondering if anyone else here has a
> similar interest in
>  >    Boxer, and would like to explore the
> possibility of getting a
>  >    Boxer-like system working on the PC, perhaps
> using Python as the
>  >   implementation language and a system like
> VPython for the
>  >  graphical component (which I haven't discussed).
> 
> I certainly think we should indulge and excite kids
> by letting them get at
> good graphics in the context of both math and
> programming education.
> And do think VPython is quite well suited for that
> role.
> 
> ART
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:38:21 -0600
> From: Fred Yankowski <fred@ontosys.com>
> Cc: edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] re: diSessa's "computational
> media", and Boxer
> 
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:02:18PM -0600,
> Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com wrote:
> > Found chapters 1& 2 online in pdf at:
> > http://www.soe.berkeley.edu/boxer/papers.html
> 
> Thank you for that URL.  I completely forgot to
> provide any references
> in my original message.
> 
> The first two chapters of the book outline diSessa's
> thesis and give
> some very brief examples of Boxer, but miss some
> compelling stories of
> how kids used Boxer.
> 
> > But I do tend to resist any approach that is GUI
> intensive.
> 
> I think I understand you.  I have similar
> preferences:
> 
>   good:  Linux /etc/whatever.conf files
>   fair:  Win32 control panels, preferences, tabs,
> advanced options, ...
> 
>   good:  Hacking Java code in Emacs, working
> directly on files
>   fair:  Editing methods in a VisualAge for Java GUI
> 
>   good:  Hacking Python code in Emacs, running from
> bash
>   fair:  Editing Python code in IDLE or PythonWin
> 
>   good:  Working directly on web application script
> files
>   fair:  Editing Zope "methods" "thru the web"
> 
> But, then again, I've been programming for over 25
> years.  (Back then
> we coded everything on punch cards, and we LIKED
> IT!) 
=== message truncated ===


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From pdx4d@teleport.com  Tue Feb 27 19:52:30 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:52:30 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102261924420.1150-100000@isis.visi.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010227115230.00b6b8c0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Another recommended resource:

http://diveintopython.org/

Kirby



From pdx4d@teleport.com  Wed Feb 28 19:39:38 2001
From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:39:38 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Switching gears...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010227115230.00b6b8c0@pop3.norton.antivirus>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102261924420.1150-100000@isis.visi.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010228113938.00b6ba20@pop3.norton.antivirus>

I think I'll give up pursuing the "math through programming"
thread with the math teachers.  I'll stay in contact with
the few with an interest who got in touch, but most of the 
time it's like talking to a brick wall.

Fortunately, the computer science track covers a lot of the
same material ('Concrete Mathematics', 'Art of Computer 
Programming'), so in some respects we can make up for 
deficiencies in the math curriculum by bolstering the 
computer programming curriculum.

I see a large homeschooler market developing here, as many
kids have computers at home but no competent teachers in 
school (Yorktown kids etc. are lucky).  I hope those 
computer science/programming teachers who share this stuff
with kids will continue putting a lot of it on the web in
an accessible form, as for every kid in the classroom, 
there will be 100 at home with fewer options to learn in
a group setting with a live teacher.

I feel sorry for kids who just get the regular K-12 
math curriculum these days.  It's not relevant to their 
needs.  But it's what the teachers are programmed to 
teach, and there's no sense arguing with essentially 
mindless automatons.  I can think of better and more 
effective ways to rescue kids from a dead end curriculum
and will be heading down those avenues instead.

Kirby

More in a similar vein:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synergeo/message/1876




From smorris@cereva.com  Wed Feb 28 20:14:37 2001
From: smorris@cereva.com (Morris, Steve)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:14:37 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Switching gears...
Message-ID: <8010912471E0D41189930090278D4E480FF021@SPAWN>

Funny you should say so. I have a similar reaction when trying to help my
5th grader with math. Unfortunately I don't have the option of giving up on
the teachers. I have to work around them. I'm beginning to hate the "Chicago
curriculum" even though the only thing I know about it is the math problem
sheets that get sent home. The biggest problem is the stone wall that
appears whenever I try to get more information about the curriculum so I can
try to anticipate. The teachers treat me like an adversary that they need to
handle with kid gloves but for sure don't give any real information to. They
are polite but unhelpful. I'm afraid to push because of potential adverse
reaction towards my student child.

Sorry for the off topic rant but I am at wits end. I watch my 5th graders
motivation trickle away daily. I think I understand how to make math clear
and interesting but all my energy is wasted trying to compensate for the
weakness of his classroom work. I was hoping to give him an edge but instead
am trying not to lose him altogether.

Oh well, maybe next years teacher will be better.

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:pdx4d@teleport.com]
 > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 2:40 PM
 > To: edu-sig@python.org
 > Subject: [Edu-sig] Switching gears...
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > I think I'll give up pursuing the "math through programming"
 > thread with the math teachers.  I'll stay in contact with
 > the few with an interest who got in touch, but most of the 
 > time it's like talking to a brick wall.
 > 
 > Fortunately, the computer science track covers a lot of the
 > same material ('Concrete Mathematics', 'Art of Computer 
 > Programming'), so in some respects we can make up for 
 > deficiencies in the math curriculum by bolstering the 
 > computer programming curriculum.
 > 
 > I see a large homeschooler market developing here, as many
 > kids have computers at home but no competent teachers in 
 > school (Yorktown kids etc. are lucky).  I hope those 
 > computer science/programming teachers who share this stuff
 > with kids will continue putting a lot of it on the web in
 > an accessible form, as for every kid in the classroom, 
 > there will be 100 at home with fewer options to learn in
 > a group setting with a live teacher.
 > 
 > I feel sorry for kids who just get the regular K-12 
 > math curriculum these days.  It's not relevant to their 
 > needs.  But it's what the teachers are programmed to 
 > teach, and there's no sense arguing with essentially 
 > mindless automatons.  I can think of better and more 
 > effective ways to rescue kids from a dead end curriculum
 > and will be heading down those avenues instead.
 > 
 > Kirby
 > 
 > More in a similar vein:
 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synergeo/message/1876
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Edu-sig mailing list
 > Edu-sig@python.org
 > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
 > 


From emmanuel.viennet@lipn.univ-paris13.fr  Wed Feb 28 20:27:22 2001
From: emmanuel.viennet@lipn.univ-paris13.fr (Emmanuel Viennet)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:27:22 +0100
Subject: [Edu-sig] Switching gears...
References: <8010912471E0D41189930090278D4E480FF021@SPAWN>
Message-ID: <3A9D5F2A.D28B467A@lipn.univ-paris13.fr>

 Hi,

I follow with interest your discussion about math 
teaching in the US. The situation in France may
be similar... 
Just for my curiosity, where can we get on the web
the details of the math program for the K12
curriculum ?

Thanks
Emmanuel

-- 
Emmanuel Viennet
Dpt GTR - IUT de Villetaneuse - Universite Paris-Nord       
93430 Villetaneuse -  France
http://www-gtr.iutv.univ-paris13.fr/


From rwall@bsd.sk.ca  Wed Feb 28 23:22:54 2001
From: rwall@bsd.sk.ca (Rob Wall)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:22:54 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S.
Message-ID: <200102282322.f1SNMsQ00899@nistow.bsd.sk.ca>

Since this is my first official posting to the Python edu-sig list, let
me start with a hearty hello to everyone. I have not contributed to the
list, but I feel I have learned a great deal from it, for which I am
greatful.

I teach Computer Science at North Battleford Comprehensive High School.
We are in the process of changing our teaching languages from BASIC and
RealBASIC on a Mac platform to Python and Java on a Linux platform. As
we are going through the semester, I will be putting assignments up at
our website at http://ogimow.bsd.sk.ca:8080/compsci - the Python stuff
is done in Computer Science 20, but if you are using Python to teach
OOP, you may find some of the Computer Science 30 assignments useful as
well. If anyone has any comments on the site (powered by Zope, btw) I'd
appreciate hearing from you (the obligatory e-mail link is on the web
site).

later,
rob
-- 
Rob Wall
Technology Coordinator, Battlefords School Division
http://www.bsd.sk.ca