From pdx4d@teleport.com Sat Jul 1 01:27:03 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:27:03 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] PowerPoint presentation (follow-up) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000630154346.0076fb78@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000630172703.03589ee8@pop.teleport.com> Re: ftp://ftp.teleport.com/pub/users/pdx4d/images/synergeo.ppt PS: the file is approx 625K Actually, managed to shrink it to more like 495K. Added some of those special effects PowerPoint is all about. Apologies if this is distracting, but the business culture in which I operate kinda likes these bells and whistles. Kirby 4D Solutions PS: use mouse clicks to get text bullets to appear, and to move from slide to slide (11 slides in all). PPS: also notified educators at http://mathforum.com/epigone/math.teaching.technology of this free download From sales@lookelu.com Sat Jul 1 14:57:25 2000 From: sales@lookelu.com (The Western Web) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:57:25 Subject: [Edu-sig] The Western Web has just finished our new classified ad section. Please check it out and make sure that your classified ad has been moved. We are in the process of moving ads at this time, but would appreciate your help to insure that if your ad has been moved. If it hasn't been moved or you would like to place a new ad feel free to do so. We have added new sections in the classifieds, hay/feed/shavings, livestock, camelids, cattle, deer and elk, poultry, rabbits, sheep, livestock equipment, swine, donkeys, dogs and mules. We are currently receiving 100 new ads a day, and over 20,000 unique hits a day. Message-ID: <20000701205626.57EB21CDA5@dinsdale.python.org> The Western Web has just finished our new classified ad section. Please check it out and make sure that your classified ad has been moved. We are in the process of moving ads at this time, but would appreciate your help to insure that if your ad has been moved. If it hasn't been moved or you would like to place a new ad feel free to do so. We have added new sections in the classifieds, hay/feed/shavings, livestock, camelids, cattle, deer and elk, poultry, rabbits, sheep, livestock equipment, swine, donkeys, dogs and mules. We are currently receiving 100 new ads a day, and over 20,000 unique hits a day. http://www.thewesternweb.com The new classified section is automated now and your ads will be posted immediatly. You can also add Multi-Media files (photos, sound and video) on line. This is a free service to you so use it at your will. http://www.westernwebclassified.com We have also finished the Western Web Search Engine, which is solely optimized for the western way of life. Please stop by the search engine add your site. http://www.lookelu.com Our message board is also now up and running so please use it . http://www.westernmessageboard.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi We are sorry for any inconvenience. Thank you, http://www.thewesternweb.com This ad is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 1618, Title 3, section 301. http://www.senate.gov/ ~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html Here is a more detailed version of the legal notice above: This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From hei@adtranzsig.de Mon Jul 3 09:47:23 2000 From: hei@adtranzsig.de (Dirk-Ulrich Heise) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:47:23 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] beginner trouble, indexing starting w/"0" References: Message-ID: <067c01bfe4cb$4ebf5800$13ec1fc2@adtranzsig.de> Von: "Dustin James Mitchell" > I like your suggestion of making it a user-settable flag (perhaps a > command-line switch as well?). Anyone else feel strongly on this issue of > modifying Python? While this would be possible, it would lead to an indefinite number of language dialects (one flag for indexing, one for case sensitivity, one for braces instead of white space sensitivity, one that allows ++ operators...). "My program is written in Python -i+ -c+ -b+." "Oh, i wrote mine in Python -i- -c+ -b-." Next, we could go writing automatic translators between the dialects ;-) (Oh, don't forget the switch for integer division!) VBA-(or C++)-ly yrs Dipl.Inform. Dirk-Ulrich Heise hei@adtranzsig.de dheise@debitel.net From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Mon Jul 3 22:10:32 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:10:32 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] [help@ridgway.k12.co.us: educational materials] Message-ID: <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> This e-mail was sent to bookstore@python.org; I can't really respond. Anyone want to offer some advice to this person? --amk ----- Forwarded message from Help Desk ----- Delivered-To: akuchlin@python.org Reply-To: "Help Desk" From: "Help Desk" To: Subject: educational materials Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:29:36 -0600 Organization: Ridgway School X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Hello, I am a science teacher and do tech support at Ridgway School in Ridgway, Colorado. I will be teaching computer science for the first time this coming school year. I would like to teach python. What book would you suggest I use for student textbooks and what would be best for me to use? Thanks, Criss Bartley ----- End forwarded message ----- From jeff@elkner.net Tue Jul 4 03:42:35 2000 From: jeff@elkner.net (Jeffrey Elkner) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:42:35 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] [help@ridgway.k12.co.us: educational materials] In-Reply-To: <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> References: <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <00070322592101.00773@robeson.elkner.net> Hi Criss! I am a computer science teacher at Yorktown High School in Arlington, VA. Last year I began using Python as the language of instruction in our first year programming course. Python is a wonderful language for that purpose. By the end of the year it was clear that the students were programming with more confidence and were writing more interesting programs than they were ever able to when we used C++. About the only issue that has not yet been fully resolved is the lack of text book and teaching materials using Python. With the gracious help of several other people, I have taken on the task of modifying an excellent introductory programming text book for use with Python. I will be finishing version 1 of it this summer. You can see what there is so far at: http://yhslug.tux.org/obp/thinkCS/ThinkCSpy The book will be available on-line, and we know a printer who can produce nice looking bound printed versions for about $10 per copy. Other than that I have found the most readable book available for beginners to be "The Quick Python Book", by Daryl D. Harms and Kenneth McDonald. It is not a text book, but it is well written and easy to learn from. Please let me know if I can be of any further help, and thanks for thinking of this wonderful language in planning your course. jeff elkner yorktown high school arlington, va On Mon, 03 Jul 2000, you wrote: > I am a science teacher and do tech support at Ridgway School in Ridgway, > Colorado. I will be teaching computer science for the first time this coming > school year. I would like to teach python. What book would you suggest I use > for student textbooks and what would be best for me to use? > Thanks, > Criss Bartley From pdx4d@teleport.com Thu Jul 6 08:32:27 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 00:32:27 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Playing with Python In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000630172703.03589ee8@pop.teleport.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20000630154346.0076fb78@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000706003227.00969e90@pop.teleport.com> When kids have no fear, are in a spirit of play, they tend to 'go wild' trying things for which we see no 'practical applications'. This tendency will be expressed in Python, probably already has been, in a number of your classrooms (or you may recognize yourself here). Example: we introduce the basic collection types: tuple, list, dictionary. Some kid is going to try doing a dictionary of lists containing tuples of dictionaries. I'm sure edu-sig folks can think of other examples -- weird and bizarre forays which take us to the limits of what Python concepts implement. Effective teachers recognize this is a good sign. When 'play behavior' kicks in, it means students are actively exploring, not trying to conform to some standard pattern. From such 'play time' phases derives a kind of self-confidance that all strong programmers evidence. You're not afraid to pioneer new techniques. More power to ya. Kirby From pdx4d@teleport.com Thu Jul 6 08:44:18 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 00:44:18 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Teaching OOP: Lending your "I" In-Reply-To: <00070322592101.00773@robeson.elkner.net> References: <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000706004418.0096ac10@pop.teleport.com> One effective way to impart the OOP viewpoint is to have students learn to "empathize" with objects, meaning you look at some instantiation of class X and say "I am an X". This helps synch with the grammar of "self", the first parameter in all object methods. When you come across syntax like: obj2 = module.objX() learn to think "I am an objX, my name is obj2. I know how to [method]. I inherit additional know-how from my parent, objY." You can learn "empathy" independently of any coding. For example: "I am a valve. I open and close. When I'm open for a long time, I know how to send a reminder to ControlPanel that I'm still open." Or: "I am a weather pattern. I have a beginning, middle, and end, in relation to a time line. I have a lot of parameters and methods." The goal of such lingo is to instill a sense of encapsulation, as well as a sense of responsibility in the logical sense, i.e. a well-designed object has a definite role to play in some ensemble of objects. Learning to "empathize" with each object in turn helps you conceptualize about these roles. Kirby From pdx4d@teleport.com Thu Jul 6 22:38:56 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:38:56 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Implementing an Lsystem (edu-sig Python project) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000706004418.0096ac10@pop.teleport.com> References: <00070322592101.00773@robeson.elkner.net> <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000706143856.0096b860@pop.teleport.com> I was exploring in ActiveWorlds Education Universe today (http://edu.activeworlds.com/top.html), and went again to=20 Bonnie DeVarco's Virtual High School (VHS), a fave location=20 in TheU, one of 133 worlds in Education Universe. At 21N 54W facing North, you have this amazing wall of bioforms,=20 with a link to the Lsystems website by Lauren Lapr=E9. This guy=20 has done some trully amazing ray tracings. For example, check=20 out:=20 http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljlapre/tdd.jpg Anyway, the Lsystem is the formal language that grew up in the=20 space between fractal and turtle geometries, and is used to develop=20 fairly realistic bioforms on the computer. This seems a useful=20 and rich area in which to anchor some educational "math through programming" Python projects. First, for an example of what Lsystems can do, check out some=20 of these images: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljlapre/lp07.jpg http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljlapre/lp06.jpg Where to find more background on Lsystems? Everyone refers to=20 a groundbreaking text: 'The Algorithmic Beauty of Plants' by=20 P. Prusinkiewicz and A. Lindenmayer (the Lindenmayer's name=20 providing the L in Lsystems). Prusinkiewicz and colleagues, based in Canada, have put quite a=20 bit of material on the web, starting at: http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/projects/bmv/vmm/title.html http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/projects/bmv/vmm/JPEG/production.jpg would make a good PowerPoint slide, and starts to explain the=20 notation. Especially useful is Hung-Wen Chen's explanation of his 1995=20 master project in computer graphics at:=20 http://www.tc.cornell.edu/Visualization/contrib/cs490-94to95/hwchen/ Here we find the turtle language spelled out, along with ideas=20 about how to implement in code, including the rotation matrices. =20 Excerpt: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 The basic idea of turtle interpretation described by=20 Prusinkiewicz[2] is given below. A state of the turtle is=20 defined as a triplet state (X,Y,Alfa), where the Cartesian=20 coorfinates(x,y) represent the turtle's position , and the=20 angle Alfa, called the heading, is interpreted as the=20 direction in which the turtle is facing. Given the step size=20 N and the angle increment angle Delta, the turtle can respond=20 to commands represented by the symbols : F , + , and -.=20 However, the three symbols can only generate 2 dimensional graphic=20 trees. If we want to generate 3 dimensional graphics, these two=20 operators are not enough. Therefore, for 3D graphics, we have=20 to change the turtle's state to (X,Y,Z,Angle_U,Angle_L,Angle_H).=20 In addition, there are seven operators to deal with the freedom=20 of the 3 dimensions graphics space, such as turn left or right,=20 pitch down or up, and roll left or right, and turn around. All=20 these operators are used to generate the graphics not only in=20 a flat plane but also in 3D space.=20 "F" : Move forward a step of length d. A line segment between=20 points (X,Y,Z) and (X',Y',Z') is drawn.=20 "["=20 and=20 "]" : bracket - push and pop the current state, in this project=20 it is used to generate the tree branches. "+" : Turn left by angle Delta, Using rotation matrix R_U(Delta).=20 "-" : Turn right by angle Delta, Using rotation matrix R_U(-Delta).=20 "&" : Pitch down by angle Delta, Using rotation matrix R_L(Delta).=20 "+" : Pitch up by angle Delta, Using rotation matrix R_L(-Delta).=20 "<" : Roll left by angle Delta, Using rotation matrix R_H(Delta).=20 ">" : Roll right by angle Delta, Using rotation matrix R_H(-Delta).=20 "|" : Turn around, Using rotation matrix R_H(180).=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The above information is giving us the outlines of a Python Lturtle=20 class. We'd need a current state list, saved state, and rotation=20 methods. The heading, up and left members of the state tuple are=20 unit vectors. So we need a vector class -- something like this: from coords import Vector # coords.py is something I wrote earlier class Lturtle: state =3D [] # current state=20 stackstate =3D [] # remembers saved state delta =3D 0 # angle of rotation length =3D 0.5 # full length of turtle move thickness =3D 0.02 # default thickness of cylinder def __init__(vPos =3DVector((0,0,0)) vH =3DVector((1,0,0)), vL =3DVector((0,1,0)), vU =3DVector((0,0,1)) ): =20 self.state =3D [x,y,z,vH,vL,vU] def forward(self,d): """F by self.count""" def turnleft(self,delta): """+ angle by self.delta""" def turnright(self,delta): """- angle by self.delta""" def pushstate(self): """ [ save current state """ def popstate(self): """ ] load saved state """ ... (etc.) We also need a way to parse Lsystem files, meaning we iterate=20 through a set of rules (e.g. substitions) a specified number=20 of times, and feed the resulting string to the Lturtle as a=20 series of commands e.g. [+F+F+F+F][-F-F-F-F]. We should=20 probably read these in as text files (.ls) in order to be=20 compatible with a lot of the work already done. More information on Lsystems: http://www.csu.edu.au/complex_systems/tutorial2.html http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~cschneid/lsystems.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~cvdmark/tutor.html From pdx4d@teleport.com Fri Jul 7 01:06:24 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:06:24 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Implementing an Lsystem (edu-sig Python project) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000706143856.0096b860@pop.teleport.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20000706004418.0096ac10@pop.teleport.com> <00070322592101.00773@robeson.elkner.net> <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000706170624.009702e0@pop.teleport.com> Note: This is part 2. Part 1 is at: http://www.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-July/000545.html ============ In the shoptalk of Lsystems, you start with axioms and rules of production. An axiom is a string like: >>> axiom = 'F--F--F' and your rules of production define substitions, such as: >>> rules = {} >>> rules['F'] = 'F+F--F+F' To apply the rules to an axiom is to scan a string, and substitute wherever appropriate, e.g. every occurance of 'F' in the above axiom would be replaced by 'F+F--F+F'.[1] Since the '-' symbol is not associated with a substition rule, it would simply pass through as is: >>> def produce(axiom,rules): output = "" for i in axiom: output = output + rules.get(i,i) return output Notice that the dictionary.get() method takes 2 arguments, the 2nd being what to return if the 1st is not a key. For example, if i = 'F', then the rule for 'F' will be invoked, but if i = '-', then '-' will simply pass through to the growing output string. >>> produce(axiom,rules) 'F+F--F+F--F+F--F+F--F+F--F+F' >>> newaxiom = produce(axiom,rules) >>> produce(newaxiom,rules) 'F+F--F+F+F+F--F+F--F+F--F+F+F+F--F+F--F+F--F+F+F+F-- F+F--F+F--F+F+F+F--F+F--F+F--F+F+F+F--F+F--F+F--F+F+F+F--F+F' Another example: >>> rules = {} >>> rules['A'] = 'B' >>> rules['B'] = 'AB' >>> axiom = 'A' This sets up the example used at: http://www.csu.edu.au/complex_systems/tutorial2.html We'll define iterate as a recursive function: >>> def iterate(n,axiom,rules): print axiom if n>0: axiom = produce(axiom,rules) return iterate(n-1,axiom,rules) >>> iterate(7,axiom,rules) A B AB BAB ABBAB BABABBAB ABBABBABABBAB BABABBABABBABBABABBAB Basically, our Lparser class needs to read in a file consisting of an axiom and some rules, plus other parameters such as how many times to recursively apply the rules, what the default angle of rotation is and so on. Let's look at a real example of an .ls file, included with the downloadable DOS version of Lparser at http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljlapre/lparser.htm #=================================================== # Crystals.ls (c) C.J. van der Mark # # Questions about Lparser files to: # Internet cvdmark@xs4all.nl # Fido 2:283/203.11 # PCG 9:526/464.3 #=================================================== 15 20 20 I I=+(40)ffHccI H=[+fffG]c[-fffG]c[^fffG]c[&fffG]G G=[dS]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d] e=+(90)f-(90)>(-45) d={[f+(90)f+(90)f+(90)f>(+38)-(105)ff-(151)ff][f&(38)+(15)ff+(151)ff]} @ Rules are defined by equal signs. The axiom is given by a letter alone, after some numbers, in this case I. As per http://www.xs4all.nl/~cvdmark/tutor.html, the first 3 numbers represent: 15 # recursion depth 20 # angle 20 # thickness as % of length In Python: >>> rules = {} >>> rules['I']='+(40)ffHccI' >>> rules['H']='[+fffG]c[-fffG]c[^fffG]c[&fffG]G' >>> rules['G']='[dS]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d]' >>> rules['e']='+(90)f-(90)>(-45)' >>> rules['d']='{[f+(90)f+(90)f+(90)f>(+38)-(105)ff-(151)ff][f&(38)+(15)ff+(151) ff]}' >>> axiom = 'I' >>> iterate(2,axiom,rules) I +(40)ffHccI +(40)ff[+fffG]c[-fffG]c[^fffG]c[&fffG]Gcc+(40)ffHccI And that's only 2 iterations. After 15, we'd have a very long string of commands to feed to our Lturtle. Let's use the DOS lparser.exe to generate a Povray file corresponding to Crystals.ls: lparser -vc -g Crystals Running in a DOS box, I get the following output in response to the above input: L-System Parser/Mutator v4.0 --------------------------------------------------------- Copyright (C) : RenderStar Technology BV. 1992-1995 Release date : Dec 27 1995 (386+/DOS) --------------------------------------------------------- Sizing memory L-system file : .\crystals.ls Recursion depth: 15 Basic angle : 20 Thickness : 20 Axiom : I Rule : I=+(40)ffHccI Rule : H=[+fffG]c[-fffG]c[^fffG]c[&fffG]G Rule : G=[dS]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d]e[d] Rule : e=+(90)f-(90)>(-45) Rule : d={[f+(90)f+(90)f+(90)f>(+38)-(105)ff-(151)ff][f&(38)+(15)ff+(1 51)ff]} Size of string : 41480 chars Pov file : output.inc Objects : 5761 End Then the instructions tell me: The file 'setup1.pov' can be used to connect to the output.inc file created with lparser -vc. The first 8 colors in the pov rendering will then match the ones in the viewer. But I didn't get a very good rendering after all that. Had to tweak it quite a bit (monkey around with lighting and camera angle). Here's the result: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/graphics/lsystems1.gif Kirby ERRATUM: In my previous post I wrote: > I was exploring in ActiveWorlds Education Universe today > (http://edu.activeworlds.com/top.html), and went again to > Bonnie DeVarco's Virtual High School (VHS), a fave location > in TheU, one of 133 worlds in Education Universe. The URL should have just been: http://edu.activeworlds.com/ Notes: [1] This example from Tim Wegner, 'Image Lab' (The Waite Group Press, 1992), pg. 256 From pdx4d@teleport.com Fri Jul 7 07:10:40 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:10:40 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Implementing an Lsystem (edu-sig Python project) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000706170624.009702e0@pop.teleport.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20000706143856.0096b860@pop.teleport.com> <3.0.3.32.20000706004418.0096ac10@pop.teleport.com> <00070322592101.00773@robeson.elkner.net> <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000706231040.0096e100@pop.teleport.com> Note: This is Part 3 of 3 (last in a series) Part 1: http://www.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-July/000545.html Part 2: http://www.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-July/000546.html As outlined in previous posts, the Lsystem formalism provides=20 long strings of single-letter turtle commands, e.g. 'FF--FF++&^FF' In Lapr=E9's version, commands may be followed by a parameter enclosed=20 in parentheses, e.g. 'F(10)F--(90)FF++(100)' In Lapr=E9's C implementation, you find a long set of case-break=20 statements for parsing through these command strings i.e. we=20 check for=20 case item=3D'F' { dostuff; break;} case item=3D'-' { dostuff; break;} and so forth. =20 Given the long list of single letter commands (about 30 of them),=20 it makes sense to use a Python dictionary construct coupled with=20 eval(). To each symbol there corresponds the name of a turtle=20 method, saved as a string. The turtle knows how to convert=20 returned strings to method names at runtime. Also, the turtle=20 knows to hold off evaluating a command until it has checked for=20 the optional following parameter. In my first post in this series, I provided the skeletal outline=20 of an Lturtle class. Besides being very incomplete, it contained=20 syntactical errors and would not have imported. The Lturtle class below will compile, plus it accepts long=20 instruction strings via it's "chomp" method. Chomp "eats its=20 way through" the instructions, turning switches on and off=20 as it tests for "(" and ")" -- the parameter symbols. It=20 looks up symbols (other than parentheses) in the instrudict=20 class variable (a dictionary), and builds a command to=20 evaluate -- e.g. self.turnleft(30) -- once parameter checking=20 is complete. =20 Others will likely come up with simpler versions of "chomp"=20 -- some won't like my switch-based approach. I've only coded stub functions for command symbols f + and -=20 (even though the dictionary is somewhat more complete). The=20 point is to test the design. With all of these pieces in=20 place, we've set the stage to write an Lsystem parser in Python,=20 i.e. to read in the same files Lapr=E9's Lparser.exe accepts,=20 and to have the output go to Povray for rendering (or other=20 formats, depending how ambitious we are -- how many wheels=20 we want to reinvent). I've got more turtle-related code,=20 in connection with Povray in particular, at=20 http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/numeracy3.html -- lots more clues about how to proceed in this essay. Whether or not I'll go further down this road myself I don't=20 know right now. If I do, I'll post further details to the=20 web. In the meantime, this might be an interesting project=20 for others to continue and/or adapt to classroom situations. There's lots of literature, positively reinforcing graphics, plus a synergy of two topics already covered at the high school=20 level in many curricula: fractal patterns and turtle graphics. =20 Plus the recursive production rules are good for reinforcing=20 that algorithms may be alpha-numeric, not just numeric -- i.e.=20 string and symbol processing is every bit as "mathematical"=20 (potentially), as anything to do with "raw number crunching"=20 (as algebraic manipulation so well demonstrates). Kirby =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D lsystems.py from coords import Vector class Lturtle: stackstate =3D [] # remembers saved state delta =3D 0 # angle of rotation length =3D 0.5 # full length of turtle move thickness =3D 0.02 # default thickness of cylinder instrudict =3D {'+':'turnleft', '-':'turnright', '&':'pitchdown', '^':'pitchup', '<':'leftroll', '>':'rightroll', '|':'turn180', '%':'roll180', '$':'rollhoriz', 'x':'randturn', 't':'gravity', 'F':'fdraw', 'f':'fnodraw', 'Z':'halfdraw', 'z':'halfnodraw', 'g':'Fnorecord', '.':'Nomove'} =20 def __init__(self,vPos=3DVector((0,0,0)), vH =3DVector((0,0,1)), vL =3DVector((0,1,0)), vU =3DVector((1,0,0))): =20 """The turtle will start at the origin with the Z-axis as forward direction and Y-axis as left direction. (lparser.txt)""" =20 self.vPos,self.vH,self.vL,self.vU =3D vPos,vH,vL,vU def chomp(self,instructions): getparam =3D 0 checkparam =3D 0 param =3D "" =20 for item in instructions: if getparam: # getting parameter? if item =3D=3D ")": getparam =3D 0 # done getting command =3D command + "(" + param + ")" eval(command) continue else: param =3D param + item # building parameter continue =20 if checkparam: # checking for parameter? checkparam =3D 0 if item =3D=3D "(": param =3D "" getparam =3D 1 # parameter exists continue else: command =3D command + "()" # no parameter eval(command) =20 # initializing command string command =3D "self." + self.instrudict.get(item) checkparam =3D 1 # set flag else: if checkparam: command =3D command + "()" # no parameter eval(command) =20 def fnodraw(self,n=3D""): print "Forward %s (no draw)" % n def turnleft(self,n=3D""): print "Turn Left around vU %s" % n def turnright(self,n=3D""): print "Turn Right around vU %s" % n =20 # other functions to follow (as per instrudict)=20 Usage: >>> reload(lsystems) >>> lturt =3D lsystems.Lturtle() >>> lturt.chomp('f--f--f--f++') Forward (no draw) Turn Right around vU=20 Turn Right around vU=20 Forward (no draw) Turn Right around vU=20 Turn Right around vU=20 Forward (no draw) Turn Right around vU=20 Turn Right around vU=20 Forward (no draw) Turn Left around vU=20 Turn Left around vU=20 >>> lturt.chomp('f-(90)-f--f-(-105)-f++(100)') Forward (no draw) Turn Right around vU 90 Turn Right around vU=20 Forward (no draw) Turn Right around vU=20 Turn Right around vU=20 Forward (no draw) Turn Right around vU -105 Turn Right around vU=20 Forward (no draw) Turn Left around vU=20 Turn Left around vU 100 From pdx4d@teleport.com Fri Jul 7 09:06:57 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:06:57 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Lsystems Python Project web page In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000706231040.0096e100@pop.teleport.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20000706170624.009702e0@pop.teleport.com> <3.0.3.32.20000706143856.0096b860@pop.teleport.com> <3.0.3.32.20000706004418.0096ac10@pop.teleport.com> <00070322592101.00773@robeson.elkner.net> <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <20000703171032.A17948@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000707010657.00979200@pop.teleport.com> I notice some of the archived posts got the meat grinder treatment (extraneous =20 and =3D interpolations, owing to text file incompatibilities). Since I put a fair amount of time into that 3-part presentation, I've rescued it from complete obscurity by transferring it to the web: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/lsystems.html Somewhat more polished -- will seek to improve it over time. If anyone reading this goes ahead with a Python implementation of an Lsystem, or knows of one already out there, don't hesitate to send me an URL and I'll maybe add a link. Kirby Curriculum writer Oregon Curriculum Network From flexsz@hotmail.com Sat Jul 8 00:45:51 2000 From: flexsz@hotmail.com (philip szeto) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:45:51 PDT Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: [synergeo] Lsystems Python Project web page Message-ID: <20000707234552.98461.qmail@hotmail.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_4b2b422a_4e8fcc42$3afd54db Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_1d79e69_4e8fcc42$3afd54db" ------=_NextPart_001_1d79e69_4e8fcc42$3afd54db Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed From: Kirby Urner Reply-To: synergeo@egroups.com To: edu-sig@python.org Subject: [synergeo] Lsystems Python Project web page Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:06:57 -0700 Kirby said: >I notice some of the archived posts got the meat grinder >treatment (extraneous =20 and =3D interpolations, owing >to text file incompatibilities). Kirby Curriculum writer Oregon Curriculum Network ---------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kirby: Like L-system...weirdness melts... By ="20", you mean the twenty-around-one-cube...extensive; and by =3-D you mean...when it gets there. Well, I have noticed my last message was chewed concerning these. Let's cut the..."overdoing" crap (B.G. sake, too), let's get to the point (the twenty-four around-one) in the Duo-tet are needing, being hammered-in constantly...for that "eventual" twenty-around-one cube "fix". How many Intellectual Totems' Sacrileges (publish and "get lost" or publish and perish or syndrome that "goes along") are very unique in this job because...it cannot use multiple of "too many". Best examples has been the AMA...using literally 10,000 doctorate accreditation for one simple operation of "gene splicing"...of many-combinations...through as many years of the science's pseudo-invention. "Kirby"...(listen) you are unique: We...are the RIVAL SCHOOL (deeper shock). Can we get some proper help, here... I love B.G.; and no matter what, I'd like to do a "fair amount" of justice...for her little-bit-of- curiosity (mine was very well rewarded, by finding a matching-set). Thank you. Besides, how does a woman get to marry-me now, after? Regarding heavy science-intellect...surrounding spherical geometry's, oddly...superstitions... (gone awry) connecting the metaphysical to the government's (oddest...science). I wouldn't be surprised if I get a Treasury Agent at my door, next (something about...Applewhite Moneys), pun. Mathsmith_sm_@hotmail.com, Philip enclosure: But now, I'm probably in trouble for "that matching set" because now I'm being persecuted by the country...for it. Something about a Hiroshima/Nagasaki syndrome (CIA...silly estab.)? I literally do better... just out-guessing the Science Establishment (most times) ...while: I need-to "eat"...too. Not a Post. --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_001_1d79e69_4e8fcc42$3afd54db Content-Type: text/html
                From: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Reply-To: synergeo@egroups.com
To: edu-sig@python.org
Subject: [synergeo] Lsystems Python Project web page
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:06:57 -0700

Kirby said:
  I notice some of the archived posts got the meat grinder
treatment (extraneous =20 and =3D interpolations, owing
to text file incompatibilities).

Kirby
Curriculum writer
Oregon Curriculum Network
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Kirby:

Like L-system...weirdness melts...

By ="20", you mean the twenty-around-one-cube...extensive;
and by =3-D you mean...when it gets there.

Well, I have noticed my last message was chewed
concerning these. Let's cut the..."overdoing" crap (B.G.
sake, too), let's get to the point (the twenty-four
around-one) in the Duo-tet are needing, being hammered-in
constantly...for that "eventual" twenty-around-one cube
"fix". How many Intellectual Totems' Sacrileges (publish
and "get lost" or publish and perish or syndrome that
"goes along") are very unique in this job because...it
cannot use multiple of "too many". Best examples has been
the AMA...using literally 10,000 doctorate accreditation
for one simple operation of "gene splicing"...of
many-combinations...through as many years of the
science's pseudo-invention. "Kirby"...(listen) you
are unique:

We...are the RIVAL SCHOOL (deeper shock). Can we get
some proper help, here...

I love B.G.; and no matter what, I'd like to do a
"fair amount" of justice...for her little-bit-of-
curiosity (mine was very well rewarded, by finding
a matching-set). Thank you.

Besides, how does a woman get to marry-me now, after?
Regarding heavy science-intellect...surrounding
spherical geometry's, oddly...superstitions...
(gone awry) connecting the metaphysical to the
government's (oddest...science). I wouldn't be
surprised if I get a Treasury Agent at my door,
next (something about...Applewhite Moneys), pun.

Mathsmith_sm_@hotmail.com, Philip

enclosure: But now, I'm probably in trouble for "that
matching set" because now I'm being persecuted by the
country...for it. Something about a Hiroshima/Nagasaki
syndrome (CIA...silly estab.)? I literally do better...
just out-guessing the Science Establishment (most times)
...while: I need-to "eat"...too. Not a Post.
---------------------------------------------------------


Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:42:46 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re Szeto's weird post etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000706003227.00969e90@pop.teleport.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20000630172703.03589ee8@pop.teleport.com> <3.0.3.32.20000630154346.0076fb78@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000707174246.0095ec20@pop.teleport.com> > Dear Kirby: > > Like L-system...weirdness melts... Re: http://www.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-July/000549.html Phillip just hit 'reply to all' and a CC of his bizarro reply to my L-systems post went here, to edu-sig. I guess you don't have to actually subscribe to edu-sig to get your stuff in the archives. Anyway, my apologies to the list. I probably get more than my share of odd-ball posts (?), and sometimes these ricochet -- off-the-wall posts like Szeto's are just part of my "aura" I guess (I'm kinda like that Pig Pen character in 'Peanuts'[1]). On the L-systems front, I've decided to go ahead and implement it in more detail -- a good workout for at least one of my other modules (coords.py). Given coords.py (vector classes) and povray.py (Povray output files) are already at my disposal, it makes sense to finish building an Lturtle class as well.[2][3] I'll do a follow-up post on it when I've got something worth showing. In the meantime, I've fixed some links and polished http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/lsystems.html a little bit (still somewhat rough). I also posted about this project to geometry_research at the Math Forum [4] -- fingers crossed we attract another Python- focussed educator or two (seems like a pretty tiny/elite little core group we have here -- too tiny if you ask me). Kirby [1] http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/peanuts/f_profiles/html/f4j.html [2] coords.py in html: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/python/coords.html [3] povray.py in html http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/python/povray.html [4] http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/geometry-research/zhimmiyerd From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Tue Jul 11 08:04:33 2000 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu C. Gherman) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:04:33 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? Message-ID: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> Hello, I just wonder what to expect for the future of CP4E given the most recent developments, with people leaving the CNRI for an new environment at BeOpen or joining from other places? If anything, I guess we can at least expect the core Python development activities to be determined by comercial inter- ests from now on. A first sign of this is the renaming of Python 1.6 to 2.0 based more or less on marketing reasons. Maybe there are good reasons to believe that CP4E will have a bright future, now more than ever, and I'm just unable to see them? Maybe there are good reasons to believe that Be- Open as a rather unknown new player has a real interest and concrete advantage in promoting Python and CP4E that are simply not obvious to everybody? Seeking-some-decent-level-of-enlightment'ly, Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ................................................................ "The only possible values [for quality] are 'excellent' and 'in- sanely excellent', depending on whether lives are at stake or not. Otherwise you don't enjoy your work, you don't work well, and the project goes down the drain." (Kent Beck, "Extreme Programming Explained") From djmitche@cs.uchicago.edu Tue Jul 11 15:22:59 2000 From: djmitche@cs.uchicago.edu (Dustin James Mitchell) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:22:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Dinu C. Gherman wrote: > Maybe there are good reasons to believe that CP4E will have a bright > future, now more than ever, and I'm just unable to see them? Maybe > there are good reasons to believe that Be- Open as a rather unknown > new player has a real interest and concrete advantage in promoting > Python and CP4E that are simply not obvious to everybody? Although tempting, it's wrong to assume that any person or entity which makes money is against everything good and wholesome in the world. In fact, it behooves every technology company with plans to be doing business 20 years from now to maximize the computers skills of today's school-aged children. Further, Be has shown itself to be fairly progressive in its approaches to software, suggesting that they will not try to close-source Python. Let's not jump to any conclusions. Dustin --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Dustin Mitchell )O( | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From guido@beopen.com Tue Jul 11 16:51:30 2000 From: guido@beopen.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:51:30 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:04:33 +0200." <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> References: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <200007111551.KAA05632@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > I just wonder what to expect for the future of CP4E given > the most recent developments, with people leaving the CNRI > for an new environment at BeOpen or joining from other > places? > > If anything, I guess we can at least expect the core Python > development activities to be determined by comercial inter- > ests from now on. A first sign of this is the renaming of > Python 1.6 to 2.0 based more or less on marketing reasons. > > Maybe there are good reasons to believe that CP4E will have > a bright future, now more than ever, and I'm just unable to > see them? Maybe there are good reasons to believe that Be- > Open as a rather unknown new player has a real interest and > concrete advantage in promoting Python and CP4E that are > simply not obvious to everybody? Dinu, I share your concern! BeOpen was originally optimistic about finding money for CP4E, but more recently they have other priorities (based I'm sure on where they can get money -- I'm not privvy to details). CNRI is dropping it as far as I can tell, they have nobody to work on it that I know of. I still hope that the ideas can continue: there's ActiveState's Programming for the People, and certainly IDLE is still on our list of projects we support. Also, Jeff Elkner and others are quietly working on producing and posting more teaching materials... --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://dinsdale.python.org/~guido/) From guido@beopen.com Tue Jul 11 17:44:22 2000 From: guido@beopen.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:44:22 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:22:59 EST." References: Message-ID: <200007111644.LAA05986@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > Although tempting, it's wrong to assume that any person or entity which > makes money is against everything good and wholesome in the world. In > fact, it behooves every technology company with plans to be doing business > 20 years from now to maximize the computers skills of today's school-aged > children. Well said. > Further, Be has shown itself to be fairly progressive in its approaches to > software, suggesting that they will not try to close-source Python. > > Let's not jump to any conclusions. ...For example, the conclusion that BeOpen is related to BeOS. :-) BeOpen is connected to BeOS at all! We're completely different. Check out www.beopen.com to see what we are -- an open source portal site. PythonLabs is a separate division -- we'll make money for our core Python development work by selling support and consulting. You're right however that BeOpen will keep Python completely Open Source. In fact, you may want to view http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2000-July/012789.html to find out to what lengths we're going to keep Python Open Source! --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://dinsdale.python.org/~guido/) From tim_one@email.msn.com Tue Jul 11 23:52:10 2000 From: tim_one@email.msn.com (Tim Peters) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:52:10 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: [Dinu C. Gherman] > I just wonder what to expect for the future of CP4E given > the most recent developments, with people leaving the CNRI > for an new environment at BeOpen or joining from other > places? > > If anything, I guess we can at least expect the core Python > development activities to be determined by comercial inter- > ests from now on. Well, everyone at PythonLabs had a salary before the move too, and the money didn't come out of thin air then either . I don't think any of us have suddenly become opposed to accepting government grants for interesting work. CP4E's initial DARPA grant didn't get the project very far, though, and my understanding is that the grant money has been exhausted. Guido hoped to attract *more* funding by "going commercial"; but too soon to say whether that works out. > A first sign of this is the renaming of Python 1.6 to 2.0 based > more or less on marketing reasons. I've been arguing to do that for years, btw. I've actually had upper management ask me why we should use Python instead of Perl, becuase "Perl is on its fifth release already, but Python is still on its first! We should go with the mature language." One *good* meaning of "marketing" is accurately communicating with your intended audience, and "Python 1.x" was perceived in an unintended way too often. > Maybe there are good reasons to believe that CP4E will have > a bright future, now more than ever, and I'm just unable to > see them? CP4E has no active funding now, but would not have any now had the move not occurred either. So far, it looks like a wash to me. "The community" could be doing a lot more with it, though, don't you think? Both Python and IDLE are Open Source, so *anyone* can run off and do just about anything they like with them. Nothing was held back by CNRI, and nothing is being held back by BeOpen. > Maybe there are good reasons to believe that BeOpen as a rather unknown > new player has a real interest and concrete advantage in promoting Python > and CP4E that are simply not obvious to everybody? Indeed, maybe there are . watch-what-we-do-ignore-what-anyone-says-ly y'rs - tim From pdx4d@teleport.com Wed Jul 12 06:37:10 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:37:10 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: References: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000711223710.00922e70@pop.teleport.com> Hmmmmmm, perhaps The Conspiracy has decided to put all its eggs in the Squeak basket.[1] Wasn't Disney dumping money into that edu-sig? Even hired Marvin Minsky and Seymour Papert as consultants. Or was that just a dream? My "math through programming" approach isn't hardwired to Python. I'm for keeping diversity alive and the gene pool ever remixing. Maybe it's time to get back to DrScheme -- or move into Squeak's arena (sounds like Quake III). Certainly Python is a useful springboard to Java, another route for those wishing save C/C++ for later (if ever). But I really do think Python is a fun, interesting and well- designed language, and think lotsa kids will groove on it -- no matter what The Conspiracy's plans. Very gratifying to see my simple L-System turtle is working so well behind- the-scenes, after just a couple hours of coding (between a camping trip to the beach and organizing a conference for 400 people). Here's a graphic: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/graphics/fractaltree.gif Basically a cut 'n paste from C.J.van der Mark's nifty little "turtorial" page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~cvdmark/tutor.html In the meantime, I'm an Xbase/Dbase/FoxPro programmer for a living. Doing my part to educate future generations via the Oregon Curriculum Network is just what my "inner teacher" needs to do for kicks (plus I found a utility in the Vault that lets me suck Fox memo fields though a module, which makes them amenable to regular expression analysis -- something my native Xbase never offered, fun fun!). Kirby [1] http://www.create.ucsb.edu/squeak/ From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Wed Jul 12 10:37:35 2000 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu C. Gherman) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:37:35 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? References: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> <200007111551.KAA05632@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <396C3C5F.EC1A65E9@darwin.in-berlin.de> Dustin James Mitchell wrote: > > Although tempting, it's wrong to assume that any person or entity > which makes money is against everything good and wholesome in the > world. In fact, it behooves every technology company with plans > to be doing business 20 years from now to maximize the computers > skills of today's school-aged children. I'm not that naive to believe that there is something fun- damentally/morally wrong in making money. I'm living myself in and from an environment that is very much money-driven, the telco software business. I can assure you, though, that there are few, if any, companies who care about "the compu- ter skills of today's school-aged children 20 years from now" more than they care about the next contract being signed to- morrow afternoon for a three-month project - although it might be tempting to believe that... ;-) Tim Peters wrote: > > Dinu Gherman wrote: > > > > [If anything, I guess we can at least expect the core Python > > development activities to be determined by comercial inter- > > ests from now on.] A first sign of this is the renaming of > > Python 1.6 to 2.0 based more or less on marketing reasons. > > I've been arguing to do that for years, btw. I've actually had > upper management ask me why we should use Python instead of Perl, > becuase "Perl is on its fifth release already, but Python is > still on its first! We should go with the mature language." > One *good* meaning of "marketing" is accurately communicating > with your intended audience, and "Python 1.x" was perceived in > an unintended way too often. I do agree with the switch to 2.0 for much the same reasons! All I'm saying is that in the past these reasons were less important, at least to Guido. So, there is an emphasis shift which is not being quite well addressed, I believe, leave alone communicated to this particular target group. And, yes, companies are expected to do marketing to be able to address their target group well! Again, I haven't claimed anything else. But I think it's fair to point out that this shift to "going commercial" comes with a whole new series of closed-doors decissions no matter how many "open" labels you stick on it. Just look at the following quote: ;-) Tim Peters wrote: > > Dinu Gherman wrote: > > > > Maybe there are good reasons to believe that BeOpen as a rather > > unknown new player has a real interest and concrete advantage in > > promoting Python and CP4E that are simply not obvious to every- > > body? > > Indeed, maybe there are . Guido van Rossum wrote: > > I still hope that the ideas can continue: there's ActiveState's > Programming for the People, and certainly IDLE is still on our > list of projects we support. Also, Jeff Elkner and others are > quietly working on producing and posting more teaching materials... Tim Peters wrote: > > CP4E has no active funding now, but would not have any now had > the move not occurred either. So far, it looks like a wash to > me. "The community" could be doing a lot more with it, though, > don't you think? Both Python and IDLE are Open Source, so > *anyone* can run off and do just about anything they like with > them. Nothing was held back by CNRI, and nothing is being held > back by BeOpen. Of course, "the community" could always do more with it than it actually does. Of course, I could start writing my own CP4E.py book like Per Brinch Hansen wrote his P4E.java book http://www.springer-ny.com/catalog/np/feb99np/0-387-98683-9.html which is, BTW, very much in the spirit of CP4E... The difference is that without a higher committment provi- ding some focus and identity for this community in the sense of an umbrella project and leading "evangelists" (marketing, so to say) this is rather pointless. Without these two ele- ments, I'm afraid, CP4E as a Python-centric movement will cease to exist. Guido van Rossum wrote: > > I share your concern! BeOpen was originally optimistic about > finding money for CP4E, but more recently they have other > priorities (based I'm sure on where they can get money -- > I'm not privvy to details). > [...] > CNRI is dropping it as far as I can tell, they have nobody to > work on it that I know of. So, what we can at least ask for is if BeOpen has any ex- pressed or implied intent to provide some shelter for CP4E and what form that could take or if it will be entirely "released" to the community, which I would read then as "discontinued"? With all the lawyers still working on the shift to BeOpen it might be unrealistic to get a response quickly, but I think some statement in the very near future would be appreciated. Kind regards, Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ................................................................ "The only possible values [for quality] are 'excellent' and 'in- sanely excellent', depending on whether lives are at stake or not. Otherwise you don't enjoy your work, you don't work well, and the project goes down the drain." (Kent Beck, "Extreme Programming Explained") From guido@beopen.com Wed Jul 12 13:46:41 2000 From: guido@beopen.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:46:41 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:37:35 +0200." <396C3C5F.EC1A65E9@darwin.in-berlin.de> References: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> <200007111551.KAA05632@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <396C3C5F.EC1A65E9@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <200007121246.HAA13487@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > All I'm saying is that in the past these reasons were less > important, at least to Guido. So, there is an emphasis shift > which is not being quite well addressed, I believe, leave > alone communicated to this particular target group. It still isn't important to me -- which is why I did't object much when BeOpen's marketing told me to change it to 2.0. It's an illusion that in the past I've been less willing to give in to demands by my employer -- it's just that my previous employer had different things they wanted me to do. (Most of them having to do with licensing. :-( ) Maybe I should go back to CWI in Amsterdam -- they *really* didn't care about what I did. :-) --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://dinsdale.python.org/~guido/) From guido@beopen.com Wed Jul 12 13:56:49 2000 From: guido@beopen.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:56:49 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:37:35 +0200." <396C3C5F.EC1A65E9@darwin.in-berlin.de> References: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> <200007111551.KAA05632@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <396C3C5F.EC1A65E9@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <200007121256.HAA13557@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> [Oops, I didn't read all of Dinu's mail.] > So, there is an emphasis shift > which is not being quite well addressed, I believe, leave > alone communicated to this particular target group. It's not just this target group -- we're forced to leave everybody pretty much in the dark about the negotiations. That's unfortunately how negotiations work -- you only go to the press if you think it will improve your position. :-( > And, yes, companies are expected to do marketing to be able > to address their target group well! Again, I haven't claimed > anything else. But I think it's fair to point out that this > shift to "going commercial" comes with a whole new series of > closed-doors decissions no matter how many "open" labels you > stick on it. Just look at the following quote: ;-) You have no idea how many closed-doors decisions went on at CNRI. And I can't tell you (or I would have to kill you), but believe me, BeOpen is a heaven of openness compared to CNRI! > Of course, "the community" could always do more with it than > it actually does. Of course, I could start writing my own > CP4E.py book like Per Brinch Hansen wrote his P4E.java book > http://www.springer-ny.com/catalog/np/feb99np/0-387-98683-9.html > which is, BTW, very much in the spirit of CP4E... Thanks for the reference! I should buy a copy. > The difference is that without a higher committment provi- > ding some focus and identity for this community in the sense > of an umbrella project and leading "evangelists" (marketing, > so to say) this is rather pointless. Without these two ele- > ments, I'm afraid, CP4E as a Python-centric movement will > cease to exist. And given the level of funding CNRI / DARPA had apportioned for CP4E, the same was happening at CNRI -- this is the reason why I left! In fact, they were also withdrawing funding from Python, and we felt more and more like Python wasn't wanted any more... > So, what we can at least ask for is if BeOpen has any ex- > pressed or implied intent to provide some shelter for CP4E > and what form that could take or if it will be entirely > "released" to the community, which I would read then as > "discontinued"? Active work on it will be discontinued, unless you have a rich uncle who's willing to invest in BeOpen, or unless the work is important to some other paying customer, or unless it is relevant for Python in general (since "core Python development" *is* what we are going to do). However, we will continue to host CP4E resources (existing and new) created by others, as part of the general hosting of Python resources. Again, I wish I could promise more, but that's all we can do for now. > With all the lawyers still working on the shift to BeOpen it > might be unrealistic to get a response quickly, but I think > some statement in the very near future would be appreciated. I've just answered. I'd be happy to go into more detail if you have more questions. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://dinsdale.python.org/~guido/) From siegel@eico.com Wed Jul 12 16:00:50 2000 From: siegel@eico.com (Art Siegel) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:00:50 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000711223710.00922e70@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: >Hmmmmmm, perhaps The Conspiracy has decided to put all its >eggs in the Squeak basket. Which is of course true, and why I must now communicate from an undisclosed location. >>But I really do think Python is a fun ... There's that word again. Fun. It keeps cropping up spontaneously in the Python world, by grown-ups earning livings. Guido writes - >>You have no idea how many closed-doors decisions went on at CNRI. Kirby called me a Kremlin watcher as I tried to decipher clues as to what was going on behind the scenes. It might be counter-intuitive to expect that it would be accomplished by 'going corporate', but based on recent posts by Guido and Tim it does seem to me that there is a refreshing openness developing. We are at least being told when that there are things that they are not currently in a position to talk about. As to Python and CP4E, I have nothing particular to contribute at the moment - other than a prediction. Which is that Python makes too much sense as a learning language to not ultimately have a signficant impact in the educational arena. How, when and by whom is all that remains to be seen. From pdx4d@teleport.com Wed Jul 12 16:21:17 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:21:17 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.20000711223710.00922e70@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000712082117.008393b0@pop.teleport.com> >There's that word again. Fun. It keeps cropping up >spontaneously in the Python world, by grown-ups earning >livings. Good sign. Comedy is eternally present in Python culture. >As to Python and CP4E, I have nothing particular to contribute at the >moment - other than a prediction. Which is that Python makes too >much sense as a learning language to not ultimately have a signficant >impact in the educational arena. How, when and by whom is all that remains >to be seen. I agree with this analysis, plus the point made by Tim Peters that no corporate power is holding us back. Maybe it's just that dot.com people are somewhat spoiled and all expect to retire rich before age 35. They responsibility to educate coming generations gets lost in this need to get rich quick. All the necessary tools have been provided; we're surrounded by an embarassment of riches (free resources, easy access to a global readership). Those who choose to whine about Guido "not doing enough" get my vote for "least likely to succeed at making a difference re CP4E". Kirby PS: I likewise appreciate the more forthcoming and open discussion of these matters by principals at BeOpen vs. the more closed-mouth chapter at CNRI. From guido@beopen.com Wed Jul 12 17:42:36 2000 From: guido@beopen.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:42:36 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:21:17 MST." <3.0.3.32.20000712082117.008393b0@pop.teleport.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20000711223710.00922e70@pop.teleport.com> <3.0.3.32.20000712082117.008393b0@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: <200007121642.LAA14886@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > I agree with this analysis, plus the point made by Tim Peters > that no corporate power is holding us back. Maybe it's just > that dot.com people are somewhat spoiled and all expect to > retire rich before age 35. They responsibility to educate > coming generations gets lost in this need to get rich quick. One of my goals in life is to retire early (alas, 35's not an attainable goal by a long shot :-) so I can spend more time doing the Python stuff I consider the most fun. And guess what... CP4E is high on my list! The sooner BeOpen goes IPO, the better. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://dinsdale.python.org/~guido/) From Thomas_A._Williams@NEWYORKLIFE.COM Wed Jul 12 17:33:23 2000 From: Thomas_A._Williams@NEWYORKLIFE.COM (Thomas A. Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:33:23 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids Message-ID: <8525691A.005AF45C.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> Hi Y'all Forgive me if this is not the right forum for seeking help yet I've posted on Tutor with no response. I'm looking at the prospect of starting a programming class for youth at the YMCA on Pasons Blvd. in Jamaica, Queens. I will definitely be building the class around PYTHON. Does anyone have any suggestions or directions on setting the class up, lesson plans, teaching strategies for youth, etc. Any help or directions will be greatly appreciated and needed :-) Enjoy The Journey, TomW From djmitche@cs.uchicago.edu Wed Jul 12 19:36:28 2000 From: djmitche@cs.uchicago.edu (Dustin James Mitchell) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:36:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids In-Reply-To: <8525691A.005AF45C.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Thomas A. Williams wrote: > I'm looking at the prospect of starting a programming class for youth > at the YMCA on Pasons Blvd. in Jamaica, Queens. I will definitely be > building the class around PYTHON. Does anyone have any suggestions or > directions on setting the class up, lesson plans, teaching strategies > for youth, etc. Get them interested very early with small, finishable projects. For instance, I had my kids implement higher-lower ("guess my number" "5" "no, my number is higher than that" "7" "no, my number is lower than that" ...) within the first few days. Also, make sure they have the freedom to spend a good deal of time exploring, especially after they've got some programming under their belts. Oh, and don't underestimate the power of the command-line. You can teach all about expressions there, including expressions with strings (slicing, etc.) Keep us updated on what you're doing there! Dustin --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Dustin Mitchell )O( | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From jeff@elkner.net Wed Jul 12 20:11:49 2000 From: jeff@elkner.net (Jeffrey Elkner) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:11:49 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> References: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <00071215260401.03795@robeson.elkner.net> Hello Dinu! As a teacher who is both very committed to and very dependant on CP4E, I shared your concerns as well. After thinking about the implications of the new situation, however, I am fully convinced that this is a very good thing in the long term for CP4E (as a concept, if not an official project). The single biggest concern I encountered when proposing the use of Python in my first year programming course was: "yes, it might be an excellent language for teaching programming, but who uses it in the real world?" The more viable Python is as real world programming language, the more easily it will be accepted in schools. Making it a popular real world programming language is the goal of BeOpen, so BeOpen's commercial interests coincide perfectly with the long term goals of CP4E. And making it a popular programming language is very import to the students who will be using it to learn. My students want to know that what they are learning is not only interesting but practical as well. jeff elkner yorktown high school arlington, va On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Dinu wrote: > Maybe there are good reasons to believe that CP4E will have > a bright future, now more than ever, and I'm just unable to > see them? Maybe there are good reasons to believe that Be- > Open as a rather unknown new player has a real interest and > concrete advantage in promoting Python and CP4E that are > simply not obvious to everybody? From pdx4d@teleport.com Wed Jul 12 20:46:15 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:46:15 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: <00071215260401.03795@robeson.elkner.net> References: <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> <396AC701.2E59E853@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000712124615.00801240@pop.teleport.com> >The more viable Python is as real world programming language, the more easily >it will be accepted in schools. Making it a popular real world programming >language is the goal of BeOpen, so BeOpen's commercial interests coincide >perfectly with the long term goals of CP4E. This seems a good point as well. When I mentioned Python on the AMTE listserv (list for educators of math teachers), the first response was some guy looking in the Want Ads (newspaper) for Python programmers. Kirby From rabit126@yahoo.com Wed Jul 12 20:46:57 2000 From: rabit126@yahoo.com (kathrine smith) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids Message-ID: <20000712194657.13117.qmail@web1609.mail.yahoo.com> Hi! Here are some ideas for your youth camp. Get the students interested in creating activities to challenge each other's knowledge. Don't forget a "Show Day" where the students get a chance to show off everything they have learned (to parents). It may help to have some fun programs already created in Python to spark interest. Have a break in between the programming day and get some playtime outside so your brain doesn't feel like fried eggs. :) Good luck! ~Katherine P.S. Speaking from experience, whatever you do . . . do not show dull videos. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From pdx4d@teleport.com Wed Jul 12 20:59:08 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:59:08 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: <200007121642.LAA14886@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20000711223710.00922e70@pop.teleport.com> <3.0.3.32.20000712082117.008393b0@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000712125908.007f93d0@pop.teleport.com> >One of my goals in life is to retire early (alas, 35's not an >attainable goal by a long shot :-) so I can spend more time doing the >Python stuff I consider the most fun. And guess what... CP4E is high >on my list! > >The sooner BeOpen goes IPO, the better. > >--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://dinsdale.python.org/~guido/) I'd love to see you freed to do CP4E stuff. I'm skeptical that the IPO strategy will work because digital assets, especially free and open ones, do not work on the "revenue from sales" principle. I regard this not as a short-coming of the open source approach (which makes plenty of sense, given the technologies involved), but of outmoded thought patterns in the business world. Clearly we would all profit if Guido were free to contribute his talents to CP4E. It's a deep flaw in capitalism that talent goes unrewarded while mediocrity often nets the big bucks. Kirby PS: It's an old book by now, but 'Education Automation: freeing the scholar to return to his studies' still makes sense, all these years later, and is available on-line at: http://www.bfi.org/education_automation.htm Excerpt: As automation advanced man began to create secondary or nonproductive jobs to make himself look busy so that he could rationalize a necessity for himself by virtue of which he could "earn" his living. Take all of our bankers, for example. They are all fixtures; these men don’t have anything to do that a counting machine couldn’t do; a punch button box would suffice. They have no basic banking authority whatsoever today. They do not loan you their own wealth. They loan you your own wealth. But man has a sense of vanity and has to invent these things that make him look important. From djmitche@cs.uchicago.edu Wed Jul 12 21:12:35 2000 From: djmitche@cs.uchicago.edu (Dustin James Mitchell) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:12:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids In-Reply-To: <20000712194657.13117.qmail@web1609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, kathrine smith wrote: > P.S. Speaking from experience, whatever you do . . . > do not show dull videos. :) You mean like "This is Bill's keyboard"? I'd second the "go outside and play" point as well. It's proably a good idea to have some of the classroom time be explicitly computer-less -- will you have a blackboard and chalk? There's lots of stuff to do interactively, including simulating the python interpreter, getting used to thinking about how the computer looks at your program. I came up with some simple rules for assignment (variables as boxes with stuff in them), including a way of drawing them on the board, then had the kids 'execute' short snippets to see how they worked. It's fun, it's active, and it doesn't cause monitor burn :) Dustin --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Dustin Mitchell )O( | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From jstraw@yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us Wed Jul 12 22:31:10 2000 From: jstraw@yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us (Jason Straw) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:31:10 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids References: <8525691A.005AF45C.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> Message-ID: <396CE39E.C08AEE18@towhee.towhee.com> "Thomas A. Williams" wrote: > I'm looking at the prospect of starting a programming > class for youth at the YMCA on Pasons Blvd. in > Jamaica, Queens. I will definitely be building the class > around PYTHON. Does anyone have any suggestions > or directions on setting the class up, lesson plans, > teaching strategies for youth, etc. I am a student at Yorktown High School in Arlington, VA; we exclusively use Python in our 1st year computer science class. There is a python textbook being created online by Jeffrey Elkner who teaches the class at Yorktown. Take a look at http://yhslug.tux.org/obp/thinkCS/thinkCSpy/index.htm -- Jason Straw Yorktown Zope Guru jstraw@yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us From pdx4d@teleport.com Thu Jul 13 08:57:36 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:57:36 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids In-Reply-To: References: <20000712194657.13117.qmail@web1609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000713005736.0083d100@pop.teleport.com> >I came up with some simple rules for assignment (variables as boxes with >stuff in them), including a way of drawing them on the board, then had the >kids 'execute' short snippets to see how they worked. It's fun, it's >active, and it doesn't cause monitor burn :) > >Dustin This all sounds like wholesome fun (there's that word again). On the "variables as boxes with stuff in them" model, I think we've touched on this earlier, but it might be useful to thread a bit on what're the most useful metaphors that'll not lead to confusion down the road. I'm thinking of stuff like: >>> a = b = [1,2,3,4] >>> a [1, 2, 3, 4] >>> b [1, 2, 3, 4] >>> a[0]='A' >>> a ['A', 2, 3, 4] >>> b ['A', 2, 3, 4] 'a' and 'b' both point to the same object, and changing the "contents" of 'a' also changes the contents of 'b'. The "stuff in boxes" metaphor tends to "break" at this point. Another metaphor is "dog on a leash" and the idea that more than one person has a leash to the same dog. Dog = Object in this picture. So if you feed Joe's dog, you're maybe feeding Sally's dog as well, as they both have pointers to the same dog. But other times, the "stuff in boxes" metaphor is apt -- I'm not implying it has to be either/or, just that we need a rich set of analogies handy, to keep Python (and by extension, computer workings in general), as transparent and intuitive as possible. Dustin's point that some mental model of computer memory is worth instilling is right on I think. I'm sure others have done some thinking along these lines and might elaborate on what they think is good metaphorics. Kirby From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Thu Jul 13 10:40:24 2000 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu C. Gherman) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:40:24 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? References: <3.0.3.32.20000711223710.00922e70@pop.teleport.com> <3.0.3.32.20000712082117.008393b0@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: <396D8E88.D95ED5DF@darwin.in-berlin.de> Kirby Urner wrote: > > All the necessary tools have been provided; we're surrounded > by an embarassment of riches (free resources, easy access to > a global readership). Those who choose to whine about Guido > "not doing enough" get my vote for "least likely to succeed > at making a difference re CP4E". Kirby, before you go voting you might want to hear what my moti- vation for asking questions about the future of CP4E (what you seem to be equalling with whining) actually was. It was at IPC8 this January that I got the strong impression that Guido was putting an *increasing* amount of effort into CP4E. This impression came from facts like his keynote be- ing mostly entirely devoted to this topic, the obvious gut- level support almost everybody seemed to have for this, say, movement, the rather heated discussion in the CP4E BOF meet- ing there, the affactionate presentation of Randy Pausch during the meeting, pushing for an even easier to use ver- sion of the language (supposed to be one without case-sen- sitivity -- another topic that could have changed now with BeOpen). If you add to this the apparently *increasing*, not decreasing efforts behind IDLE during the last months it won't take much of a great analysis genius to conclude that CP4E was *gaining* importance, despite the fact that it was financially rather unsecured. With the (ongoing) shift to BeOpen and in the absence of an implied or expressed commitment of BeOpen in favour or against CP4E and much more with Guido's (previous) CP4E commitement as least as I perceived it on IPC8, I consid- ered it a legitimate question to ask about the future support for this movement. I can't remember saying some- body was "not doing enough". > PS: I likewise appreciate the more forthcoming and open > discussion of these matters by principals at BeOpen vs. > the more closed-mouth chapter at CNRI. Obviously, you also appreciate some more details where they are available and would also be happy if such nasty little questions as mine would help people to stand firmly behind their announced openness. Glad to hear that! ;-) Regards, Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ................................................................ "The only possible values [for quality] are 'excellent' and 'in- sanely excellent', depending on whether lives are at stake or not. Otherwise you don't enjoy your work, you don't work well, and the project goes down the drain." (Kent Beck, "Extreme Programming Explained") From siegel@eico.com Thu Jul 13 15:44:19 2000 From: siegel@eico.com (Art Siegel) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:44:19 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: <396D8E88.D95ED5DF@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: >...the affactionate presentation of Randy Pausch >during the meeting, pushing for an even easier to use ver- >sion of the language (supposed to be one without case-sen- >sitivity -- another topic that could have changed now with >BeOpen). If you add to this the apparently *increasing*, >not decreasing efforts behind IDLE during the last months >it won't take much of a great analysis genius to conclude >that CP4E was *gaining* importance, despite the fact that >it was financially rather unsecured. But then there were those of us (or maybe just me) who were totally confused by Guido's approach - saw CP4E as a potentially world class undertaking with Randy Pausch, case sensitivity, and even IDLE as only tangentially on topic. Obviously Guido's listening, and I yet have no problem saying that beyond the minor contribution of having designed the (IMO) world's best learning (among other things) language - I don't see him as having any particular insight into implementing it effectively as an educational tool. Just an opinion. Folks other than Guido are probably is a better position to take it forward than he might be. And when serious efforts like Jeff Elkner's ask for his support, it seems to be there. I'm not aware of any reason to believe that that won't be true in the future. >Obviously, you also appreciate some more details where they >are available and would also be happy if such nasty little >questions as mine would help people to stand firmly behind >their announced openness. Glad to hear that! ;-) I am not aware of any announcement - it just seems to me an empirical fact. Watch what they do, was Tim's advice. I'm taking it. From Thomas_A._Williams@NEWYORKLIFE.COM Thu Jul 13 17:57:40 2000 From: Thomas_A._Williams@NEWYORKLIFE.COM (Thomas A. Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:57:40 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids Message-ID: <8525691B.005D3339.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> --0__=n9H45spR2RIKr1wer06PbNoTzQ9XeWMWBRWZNToRcfWCGgzyI8J1JbJC Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline ---------------------- Forwarded by Thomas A. Williams/NYLIC on 07/13/2000 01:03 PM --------------------------- THOMAS A. WILLIAMS 07/13/2000 12:46 PM (Embedded image moved to file: pic15620.pcx) To: jstraw@yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us cc: Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids (Document link not converted) Hi Jason, Thank Much for the info. I'm printing the tutorial now. If I may ask, what seem to be the most difficult topic areas to understand? What appears to be the most concepts within the realm of Objet Oriented Programming to understand? What teaching metaphors seem to be helpful? Thanks in Advance, Tom Williams --0__=n9H45spR2RIKr1wer06PbNoTzQ9XeWMWBRWZNToRcfWCGgzyI8J1JbJC Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="pic15620.pcx" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pic15620.pcx" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 CgUBCAAAAAArABoAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAABLAABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADID9MAyQAAxA/CDw/JD9IAyQDFD8IPD8oP0gDHAMUPww8Pyw/RAMYAxg/D Dw/MD9EAxADGD8MPwg/NDdAAwwDHDcMNwg3OD9AAAMcPxA/CD88PzwDID8QPwg/DD80NzQDIDcQN wg8P0Q/LAMkPxA/CDw/SD8kAyQ/FD8IPD8YPzQ3HAMoNwg3ED8IP1A/FAMoPxQ/DDw/VD8MAyw/F D8MPD8kPzQ0Ayw0NxQ/DDw/XD8sPxg/DDw/XD8sPxg/DDw/MD9ENww3HD8MPwg/XD8sPxg/DDw/X D8sPxg/DDw/PD84NyA/ED8IPD9cPyw/GD8MPD9cPyw/GD8MPD9IPyA3KD8UPwg8P1w/LD8YPww8P 1w/LD8YPww8P1Q/CDcsPxg/DDw8MAAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAgICAwMDA/wAAAP8A//8A AAD//wD/AP//////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA --0__=n9H45spR2RIKr1wer06PbNoTzQ9XeWMWBRWZNToRcfWCGgzyI8J1JbJC-- From Thomas_A._Williams@NEWYORKLIFE.COM Thu Jul 13 17:58:06 2000 From: Thomas_A._Williams@NEWYORKLIFE.COM (Thomas A. Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:58:06 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids Message-ID: <8525691B.005D3B35.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> --0__=ydNUDVbocONWu7TLuPC1x1N00t6aVc4eE5GAXfMFqirvdFOnEQNnuMbf Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline ---------------------- Forwarded by Thomas A. Williams/NYLIC on 07/13/2000 01:05 PM --------------------------- THOMAS A. WILLIAMS 07/13/2000 12:55 PM (Embedded image moved to file: pic23558.pcx) To: Kirby Urner @ NYLGW cc: Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids (Document link not converted) Hi Kirby, Thanks Much for the info. Methaphorics - using metaphors to teach subject material. I've not used metaphors that often in teaching. You've opened up a whole new universe for me. Could you suggest any materials which I can use to come up to speed on this area or how to apply metaphors in a teaching mode. The youth will range from 6-17 which will be broken up into groups Thanks In Advance, Tom Williams --0__=ydNUDVbocONWu7TLuPC1x1N00t6aVc4eE5GAXfMFqirvdFOnEQNnuMbf Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="pic23558.pcx" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pic23558.pcx" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 CgUBCAAAAAArABoAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAABLAABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADID9MAyQAAxA/CDw/JD9IAyQDFD8IPD8oP0gDHAMUPww8Pyw/RAMYAxg/D Dw/MD9EAxADGD8MPwg/NDdAAwwDHDcMNwg3OD9AAAMcPxA/CD88PzwDID8QPwg/DD80NzQDIDcQN wg8P0Q/LAMkPxA/CDw/SD8kAyQ/FD8IPD8YPzQ3HAMoNwg3ED8IP1A/FAMoPxQ/DDw/VD8MAyw/F D8MPD8kPzQ0Ayw0NxQ/DDw/XD8sPxg/DDw/XD8sPxg/DDw/MD9ENww3HD8MPwg/XD8sPxg/DDw/X D8sPxg/DDw/PD84NyA/ED8IPD9cPyw/GD8MPD9cPyw/GD8MPD9IPyA3KD8UPwg8P1w/LD8YPww8P 1w/LD8YPww8P1Q/CDcsPxg/DDw8MAAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAgICAwMDA/wAAAP8A//8A AAD//wD/AP//////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA --0__=ydNUDVbocONWu7TLuPC1x1N00t6aVc4eE5GAXfMFqirvdFOnEQNnuMbf-- From Thomas_A._Williams@NEWYORKLIFE.COM Thu Jul 13 18:14:43 2000 From: Thomas_A._Williams@NEWYORKLIFE.COM (Thomas A. Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids Message-ID: <8525691B.005EBD65.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> Hi Dustin, Let me know if I am going against list ettiquette to repond to you and the listsserve. Thanks for the info. The group I will be working with will be from 7-17. I will be breaking these up into groups 7-9, 10-12, and 13-17. I may be too ambitious starting out yet something need to be done for the kids/youth in my community. We hope to have fun teaching PYTHON and give them a beginning foundation in programming skills. > Oh, and don't underestimate the power of the command-line. You can teach > all about expressions there, including expressions with strings (slicing, > etc.) I appreciate the reminder. > Also, make sure they have the freedom to spend a good deal of time > exploring, especially after they've got some programming under their > belts. Please explain a bit more... Thanks Again, Enjoy The Journey. Tom Williams From pdx4d@teleport.com Thu Jul 13 18:31:58 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:31:58 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: <396D8E88.D95ED5DF@darwin.in-berlin.de> References: <3.0.3.32.20000711223710.00922e70@pop.teleport.com> <3.0.3.32.20000712082117.008393b0@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000713103158.008af4a0@pop.teleport.com> >Obviously, you also appreciate some more details where they >are available and would also be happy if such nasty little >questions as mine would help people to stand firmly behind >their announced openness. Glad to hear that! ;-) > >Regards, > >Dinu I have no problem with your questions, which I thought were constructive. I would only consider it whining if it got to the point where people are finger-pointing and saying "who killed CP4E", as we clearly have all the tools in hand to move CP4E forward in one shape or another. If not in the shape originally envisioned, oh well, such is life. Re case sensitivity, I personally have no interest in a non case-sensitive version for learners, would consider that a patronizing and condescending approach, as if the complexity we teach in ordinary language somehow goes out the door when it comes to computers (all kids learn upper/lower case just to be competent in their native language -- non-alphabetic languages excepted of course). What I'd like to see is better integration of math teaching with computer science, ala 'Concrete Math' by Knuth et al, but at a more 'Sesame Street' level. This would mean aquainting kids with ASCII early, in combination with base 2 arithmetic and permutations/ combinations of 1s and 0s more generally. Once you feel in your bones that 'A' and 'a' are paired with two entirely different bytes (or unicode wydes), then it's less of a problem to allow case sensitivity in your code (note: I use Xbase a lot, which is NOT case sensitive -- I'm not saying all languages _should_ be one way or the other, just that once you've made a design decision at this primitive level, it's sort of wasteful to backtrack and try to please everyone). If people ask for a non-case-sensitive Python, I think they should be told "no, sorry, not in the cards". Again, that's just my personal view. Likewise with IDLE -- it's a great little tool, and pretty stable. Color-coding of key words is very standard in high end editing environments for all languages, as is some kind of run-time debugger (which is useful for teaching, showing how variables are changing as the interpreter steps through code). It's not a "dumbing down for kids" or a "toy" feature in any way. I'd like IDLE to stay lean and not start doing feature bloat with the idea of compensating for naive users with no prior experience. I prefer Linux aesthetics to the hand- holding Microsoft approach (even though I am in Windows more of the time these days), with talking paper-clips and the like. We don't want Python to turn into some kind of bloated "Bob". In sum, I personally don't think "computer programming for everybody" means stuffing an already working environment with a lot of "dumbing down" bells and whistles so that people just don't have to retrain their reflexes in favor of case sensitivity or whatever. There _will_ be a learning curve. In my reality, Python is an asset, a tool, pure and simple. I don't need it to improve or "get better" for my own purposes. What I'm focussing on, when it comes to change and improvement, is not Python, but the whole overly compartmented and fragmented approach to 'numeracy', which insufficiently integrates threads, is a hodge-podge of holdovers from previous eras. I'd rather debate why we're still using TIs and graphing calculators instead of full-fledged computers, and why math teachers-in-training are given so little programming as part of the mix (because that's "computer science" -- some other discipline entirely we're supposed to think (but I'm not buying)). In sum, there's nothing wrong with Python, and the roadblocks to CP4E has little if anything to do with deficiencies in the Python language, and everything to do with an obsolete curriculum that deserves to be overhauled in a hurry, before another generation is sacrificed to the gods of tunnel vision. Kirby From djmitche@cs.uchicago.edu Thu Jul 13 18:35:33 2000 From: djmitche@cs.uchicago.edu (Dustin James Mitchell) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:35:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids In-Reply-To: <8525691B.005EBD65.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Thomas A. Williams wrote: > Hi Dustin, > Let me know if I am going against list ettiquette to repond to you > and the listsserve. > Thanks for the info. The group I will be working with will be from > 7-17. I will be breaking these up into groups 7-9, 10-12, and > 13-17. I may be too ambitious starting out yet something need > to be done for the kids/youth in my community. We hope to > have fun teaching PYTHON and give them a beginning > foundation in programming skills. When I did a similar thing, I was also too ambitious. Just plan ahead, and be ready to scrap your plans every day, and do something completely off the cuff. It's fun -- I loved it! > > Also, make sure they have the freedom to spend a good deal of time > > exploring, especially after they've got some programming under their > > belts. > > Please explain a bit more... As in, don't just ask them do do exercises, but also give them some free time to do what they want with Python, perhaps with some suggestions (e.g. use slicing to get as many English words as you can out of "hippopotomus anthropologist"), but allowing them to play and do what interests them. Dustin --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Dustin Mitchell )O( | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From Thomas_A._Williams@NEWYORKLIFE.COM Thu Jul 13 18:29:17 2000 From: Thomas_A._Williams@NEWYORKLIFE.COM (Thomas A. Williams) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:29:17 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids Message-ID: <8525691B.00601180.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> Hi Katherine, Let me know if I am going against list ettiquette to repond directly to you and the listsserve. Mucho Thanks for sharing your experiences. The kids/youth will range in age from 7-17. This is a challenge yet I'm still 8-) > Don't forget a "Show Day" where the students > get a chance to show off everything they have > learned (to parents). I like this idea and will expand upon it. > It may help to have some fun programs already created in > Python to spark interest. Were there stock programs that you used or did you write your own? > P.S. Speaking from experience, whatever you do . . . > do not show dull videos. :) Any suggestions??? 8-) Thanks Again, Enjoy The Journey, Tom Williams From pdx4d@teleport.com Thu Jul 13 18:39:04 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:39:04 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: References: <396D8E88.D95ED5DF@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000713103904.008afde0@pop.teleport.com> >I am not aware of any announcement - it just seems to me an empirical >fact. Watch what they do, was Tim's advice. I'm taking it. > Tim was saying it's not a "they". I'm watching what _you_ do, as much as anyone. Guido, Art, Tim, Jeff, Jeff's students... all the same to me (Kirby). Just more talented people in a position to make a difference, to advance CP4E. Every one of us is a piece on a chess board, strategically positioned. We don't all make the same moves, aren't capable of substituting for one another necessarily, we're not all cut from the same mold or presented with the same opportunities. But from my viewpoint, it's NOT "Guido, Elkner on stage" and "everyone else in the audience" getting to offer judgments and critiques as if they're just spectators, and not responsible in any way for the success or failure of CP4E. Kirby From jstraw@yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us Thu Jul 13 17:43:46 2000 From: jstraw@yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us (Jason Straw) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:43:46 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids References: Message-ID: <396DF1C2.DF4A515D@yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us> There is also a good programming tutorial called livewires. It was developed for 7-9 yr. olds. That is at http://yhslug.tux.org/obp/livewires/ Then use both How to Think Like a Computer Scientist and Livewires for 10-12 yr. olds and 13-17 yr. olds Tom Williams wrote: > > The group I will be working with will be from > > 7-17. I will be breaking these up into groups 7-9, 10-12, and > > 13-17. I may be too ambitious starting out yet something need > > to be done for the kids/youth in my community. We hope to > > have fun teaching PYTHON and give them a beginning > > foundation in programming skills. Jason Straw jstraw@yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us From pdx4d@teleport.com Thu Jul 13 19:06:22 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:06:22 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids In-Reply-To: <8525691B.005EBD65.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000713110622.007df830@pop.teleport.com> Tom -- You ask about metaphors. The idea is to introduce new concepts using experiences kids already understand and have a feel for. You could say "computer memory is like a wall of bricks, with each brick being one byte" (byte-sized bricks). That sort of sets the stage for those tall rectangle drawings, where memory looks sort of like a skyscraper. That's another analogy: "computer memory is like a building and different floors are for different kinds of work". Then you fill in some lower area of the rectangle (I'm imagining a chalk board) and say "in most computer designs, the bottom floors get taken over by the 'operating system', which knows the most about the guts of your computer, knows all about the plumbing and electrical systems, elevators -- everything that makes a modern office building go. If a toilet gets stopped up on the 28th floor, call the Operating System" (kids go for scatalogical metaphors sometimes -- I'm not above using them). I think this kind of "stage setting" is important, even if you don't spend more than a few minutes on it. Then you can say something like "your Python programs depend on the operating system already doing its job -- Python expects to be inside a working building with all the standard maintenance jobs being taken care of, needs that kind of service in order to be productive, as do most programs, such as word processors or games". I think it's important for kids to get it early: the computer world is a vast, sprawling bureaucracy in a lot of ways, with lots of "black boxes" -- which means that you can be a programmer without knowing everything about how a computer works. The point of teaching about the ground floor OS is to give students a sense of why they're going to get to write programs, and not have to become technological gurus overnight -- you explain enough about the inner workings to make it clear why they _don't_ have to worry about low-level stuff. That's what operating system does -- people have already written huge, complicated programs that you boot up and take advantage of every day. They should get a feel for the high level of symbiosis here: because software and hardware engineers I'll never meet spent years learning to code at a low level, I get to write Python in a working office building. And because of the work that went into Python, I'll be writing little programs only 10 minutes from now. A lot of metaphors are built right into the language, into any computer language. For example, why do we call [1,4,5,3,'A'] a "list"? What do we think about when we think of "lists" in the ordinary sense? Have kids brainstorm, throw out when "lists" come up in their lives. "Shopping list" is an obvious answer. "To do list" is another. Then you say, "suppose I change my mind: I don't want grapefruit, I want peaches" -- you cross off something on your shopping list and write something else. In Python: >>> shoppinglist = ['eggs', 'grapefruit', 'pop tarts', 'cheerios'] >>> shoppinglist ['eggs', 'grapefruit', 'pop tarts', 'cheerios'] >>> shippinglist[1] = "peaches" >>> shoppinglist ['eggs', 'peaches', 'pop tarts', 'cheerios'] Then of course "dictionaries" should be familiar to kids already. What do we do with dictionaries?: look things up. A dictionary is a place to store stuff in a way that's easy to retrieve. Gotta be careful here: Python dictionaries are not (don't need to be) 'alphabetized' in order to make retrieval easy (hash tables don't work that way). Just say >>> myCDcollection['Pink Floyd'] and get back a list: ['wish you were here', 'dark side of the moon', 'the wall'] or whatever. Anyway, I think that's enough for now. The main purpose of metaphors is to link the unfamiliar to the familiar, in order to keep the new concepts experiential, intuitive -- something to be taken for granted in no time flat. Kirby From hei@adtranzsig.de Thu Jul 13 20:59:23 2000 From: hei@adtranzsig.de (Dirk-Ulrich Heise) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:59:23 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids References: <8525691B.005D3B35.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> Message-ID: <001301bfed04$d7b7c3e0$13ec1fc2@adtranzsig.de> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: "Thomas A. Williams" An: Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. Juli 2000 18:58 Betreff: Re: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids > Hi Kirby, > Thanks Much for the info. Methaphorics - using metaphors to teach > subject material. I've not used metaphors that often in teaching. Here's a metaphor that made me understand the Simplex algorithm (finding an optimal solution for a set of unequations): The (multidimensional) problem space is divided by hyper-planes, each unequation defining one hyperplane, and each hyperplane has a side that falls into the "non-solution" area, and the other side falls into the "solution" area. This way, all hyperplanes together form a diamond-like shape. The Simplex algorithm travels all vertices of the diamond to find the one that is optimal (minimizes one of the coordinates or a combination of several of them). I never understood Simplex until i read this metaphor. I think i read it in Sedgewicks "Algorithms" book. (Don't remember the exact title, and it wasn't Edie Sedgewick but a professor) And i think, this explanation would make the Simplex algorithm even feasible for 17-years-old :-) Dipl.Inform. Dirk-Ulrich Heise hei@adtranzsig.de dheise@debitel.net From siegel@eico.com Thu Jul 13 21:00:40 2000 From: siegel@eico.com (Art Siegel) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:00:40 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000713103904.008afde0@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: >> I'm watching what _you_do, as much as anyone. Where I happen to be at the moment is back with my student hat on - specifically JPython/Java. I am still mid-stream, having much f_n, see much CP4E relevancy. The only thing I am ready to say now, is just that the process has confirmed what I expected. Taking on Java was relative cake, given a understanding of OOP developed through Python. To some extent I am feeling more like one of the big boys - in that most of what I'm doing in JPython I could do (i.e, am capable of doing)in Java directly if I so chose (not true for me of C and CPython). It just happens Java often seems the longer, less elegant route. I am trying to keep my eye on the CP4E ball in the process, and will report back. PS - There is now a fully functional JPyGeo, but I will spare the group. From siegel@eico.com Thu Jul 13 22:36:33 2000 From: siegel@eico.com (Art Siegel) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:36:33 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Further to my last - My grand scheme of course is to found a new school of programming. There's Extreme Programming. I do Naive Programming. I am going to draw a circle. >>>>from math import pi >>>>pi 3.14159265369 Stop right there. pi?? Curious number. Curious enough to have blown the mind of a civilization. Read "The History of Pi". >>>(next line) Slow development cycle, but thorough. From pdx4d@teleport.com Thu Jul 13 23:13:06 2000 From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:13:06 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids In-Reply-To: <001301bfed04$d7b7c3e0$13ec1fc2@adtranzsig.de> References: <8525691B.005D3B35.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000713151306.00931100@pop.teleport.com> Howdy Dirk -- This might be a bit off-topic for Python, but I agree with you that metaphors are often the key to unlocking esoterica in=20 mathematics, the simplex algorithm included.[1] I had the good fortune to study linear programming (the math sub-specialty in which this algorithm shows up), with one of the originators of the discipline: Kuhn I think the name was, then a professor at Princeton U (I'm Class of 1980). What gets confusing sometimes is that people lose sight of=20 what's metaphoric and what's literal. In science fiction,=20 this is deliberate -- we want to take advantage of hyper- dimensional timespace worm holes and such. But I wish we had more humanities people willing to help deconstruct=20 "dimension" in ways that subtract "hype" rather than add to it. It's hard to think of a concept more deeply embedded=20 in a morass of semantic confusions than "dimension". This is why Coxeter has to waste time in 'Regular Polytopes' trying to disentangle what's been deliberately mixed, i.e. his brand of hyperdimensional geometry from the Einsteinian stuff, in which "4D" resonates with "time as the fourth dimension" -- no such resonance exists in extrapolated=20 Euclideanism (where the simplex algorithm lives [2] --=20 simplex also means "tetrahedron" BTW, in the 3D case),=20 where we're just making the tuples wider i.e. if it works=20 for (1,0,0), it'll work for (1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0) [overlap with Python's "tuple" in this neighborhood, i.e. it's just a data structure, an object, nothing mysterious or "hard to visualize"]. You'd think mathematicians could be trusted to fight these confusions, but I think (a) a good mathematician isn't=20 necessarily a trained philosopher, and many a math head hasn't sufficiently appreciated Wittgensteins 'Philosophical=20 Investigations' into the foundations of mathematics and=20 (b) math, like physics, tends to gain in the public eye=20 in proportion to it's "gee whiz" capabilities, and being=20 able to truck out some chatter about n-dimensional manifolds=20 is always a sure-fire way to get laypersons to see stars,=20 and maybe fatten the budget for next year's circus. My approach has been to offer some polemical critiques,=20 e.g. my 'Synergetics Versus Hypercross Dogmatics' at http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/hypercross.html, designed to signal my disdain for those charlatans who would hoodwink=20 the lay public by milking the hyperdimensional cow. Too=20 much math chatter sounds like Federation Science e.g.=20 gibberish designed to artificially inflate its own=20 significance (or support plot development with pseudo- science, in the case of 'Star Trek'). That's not to=20 say it's purely nonsensical, but I think too few mathe- maticians are ready to own up to the fact that the=20 "fractional dimensions" lingo, for example, isn't a=20 requirement for moving ahead with dynamical systems theory. =20 We _could_ be doing the same algorithms and getting the=20 same pretty pictures, without buying a jargon in which=20 "dimensions exist in fractional parts" (I file that=20 innovation under "clever marketing hype" -- hats off to=20 Mandelbrot & Co.).[3] In sum, I think kids should be instilled with some=20 healthy skepticism when it comes to these various brands=20 of high flying academese. There's nothing "wrong" or=20 "incorrect" about these ways of talking, and I'm not=20 trying to win points by ruling them out of bounds (a=20 hopeless battle). More to the point, I'm willing to=20 undermine and subvert any creeping dogmatism, which you=20 find around teachers who say "it MUST be this way". For=20 example, how'd you like to see a "four dimensional geometry"=20 that is neither Coxeter's nor Einstein's, yet is internally=20 self-consistent enough to merit the terminology. I've got=20 one of those on tap, in Python no less (ah, here's the=20 tie in): http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/pyqvectors.html. Kirby 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ^^ no, _not_ "3D + Time" Linear Programming References [1] http://www-unix.mcs.anl.gov/otc/Guide/faq/linear-programming-faq.html http://www.alliance-computer.com/linearp.htm [2] http://www.ece.purdue.edu/~echong/book/toc.html 4 Concepts from Geometry=20 4.1 Line Segments=20 4.2 Hyperplanes and Linear Varieties=20 4.3 Convex Sets=20 4.4 Neighborhoods=20 4.5 Polytopes and Polyhedra=20 [3] http://www.cribx1.u-bordeaux.fr/fractals/history.html At 09:59 PM 07/13/2000 +0200, Dirk-Ulrich Heise wrote: >-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- >Von: "Thomas A. Williams" >An: >Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. Juli 2000 18:58 >Betreff: Re: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids >> Hi Kirby, >> Thanks Much for the info. Methaphorics - using metaphors to teach >> subject material. I've not used metaphors that often in teaching. > >Here's a metaphor that made me understand the Simplex >algorithm (finding an optimal solution for a set of unequations): > >The (multidimensional) problem space is divided by hyper-planes, >each unequation defining one hyperplane, and each hyperplane >has a side that falls into the "non-solution" area, and the other >side falls into the "solution" area. This way, all hyperplanes >together form a diamond-like shape. > >The Simplex algorithm travels all vertices of the diamond to >find the one that is optimal (minimizes one of the coordinates >or a combination of several of them). > >I never understood Simplex until i read this metaphor. I think >i read it in Sedgewicks "Algorithms" book. (Don't remember >the exact title, and it wasn't Edie Sedgewick but a professor) > >And i think, this explanation would make the Simplex algorithm >even feasible for 17-years-old :-) > >Dipl.Inform. Dirk-Ulrich Heise >hei@adtranzsig.de >dheise@debitel.net From hei@adtranzsig.de Fri Jul 14 07:41:43 2000 From: hei@adtranzsig.de (Dirk-Ulrich Heise) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:41:43 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] Queens, NY - PYTHON Programming for Kids References: <8525691B.005D3B35.00@Email.NewYorkLife.com> <3.0.3.32.20000713151306.00931100@pop.teleport.com> Message-ID: <000901bfed5e$93054c90$13ec1fc2@adtranzsig.de> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: "Kirby Urner" > simplex also means "tetrahedron" BTW, in the 3D case), Didn't know that. You see, down and out here at the ex-iron curtain, universities have to produce lots of computer scientists without having the money for it so they'll chase them through a lot of math stuff hoping most of them will sign off (which works, they can regulate it quite easily, but it doesn't help against boneheaded people like me). (At the moment, their output is 33% higher than 5 years ago 'cause we need more computer scientists in our tiny economy right now) Which doesn't mean the math professors are bad in any way; it's just that when a CS prof explains an algorithm he often doesn't use the kind of geometric interpretation a math prof would give; and the math prof is for one or another reason not about to explain the Simplex algorithm. I think this supports your point of mixing math and CS some more very strongly. Okay, okay, and it's not a metaphor. Dipl.Inform. Dirk-Ulrich Heise hei@adtranzsig.de dheise@debitel.net From tim_one@email.msn.com Fri Jul 14 10:28:13 2000 From: tim_one@email.msn.com (Tim Peters) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:28:13 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Future of CP4E after CNRI? In-Reply-To: <396D8E88.D95ED5DF@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: [Dinu C. Gherman] > ... > It was at IPC8 this January that I got the strong impression > that Guido was putting an *increasing* amount of effort into > CP4E. He was. He was actively pursuing his DARPA proposal then, and, after it was accepted, he was actively applying the grant money to fund the visible activities you later described. The quick ramp-up and contagious enthusiasm may have caused over-optimism. > ... > If you add to this the apparently *increasing*, not decreasing > efforts behind IDLE during the last months it won't take much > of a great analysis genius to conclude that CP4E was *gaining* > importance, despite the fact that it was financially rather > unsecured. Yes. And now that the money is no longer "rather unsecured", but "completely gone and with no clear prospects for getting more", he can't afford to continue working on it. And, as Guido said, he doesn't believe anyone at CNRI is working on it anymore either, for the same reason. > With the (ongoing) shift to BeOpen and in the absence of > an implied or expressed commitment of BeOpen in favour or > against CP4E and much more with Guido's (previous) CP4E > commitement as least as I perceived it on IPC8, I consid- > ered it a legitimate question to ask about the future > support for this movement. Certainly legitimate questions, but I think they were answered a few msgs ago. Whatever future support there may (or may not) be is something that varies by participant. Guido clearly said it's at best a "spare time" thing for him now in the continued absence of funding, and we can't guess whether BeOpen will be able to attract funding for it -- or whether anyone else will. Do you really think Guido would have moved to BeOpen if they were *opposed* to it? You have may have noticed that the very first day http://www.pythonlabs.com/ went online, we were already seeking an educator to join our group (note to Art: yes, Guido is quite aware of not "having any particular insight into implementing it effectively as an educational tool" ). But the current reality is that we don't have funding for it. That's all there is to it. ask-whether-beopen-is-in-favor-of-cp4e-is-like-asking-whether-at&t- is-in-favor-of-life-ly y'rs - tim From webmaster@lookelu.com Sun Jul 30 11:04:42 2000 From: webmaster@lookelu.com (The Western Web) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:04:42 Subject: [Edu-sig] The Western Web Newsletter Message-ID: <20000730170241.0FA5F1CE4B@dinsdale.python.org> THE WESTERN WEB WEEKLY NEWS LETTER Week of July 24, 2000 Serving Over 75000 Recipients With your assistance "The Western Web" continues to improve and your input is helpful.Our goal is to make "The Western Web" THE one place stop for all your Horse, Livestock and Western Life Style needs. 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Thank You, http://www.thewesternweb.com From siegel@eico.com Sun Jul 30 18:00:26 2000 From: siegel@eico.com (Arthur Siegel) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 13:00:26 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] zope-edu Message-ID: <000801bffa47$a9cd76a0$bde16dd1@oemcomputer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFA26.21648400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are folks aware of the Zope initiative: http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-edu/FrontPage Looks exciting. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFA26.21648400 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="zope-edu.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="zope-edu.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-edu/FrontPage [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-edu/FrontPage Modified=20AFFF0F47FABF01DE ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFA26.21648400--