From richardjones at optushome.com.au Fri Apr 1 08:10:06 2005 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Fri Apr 1 08:10:11 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI's new name Message-ID: <200504011610.06091.richardjones@optushome.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 http://www.mechanicalcat.net/richard/log/Python/PyPI_needs_a_new_name argh :) I'll try to find some time to collate an actual list of the suggestions - unless someone else beats me to it. Richard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCTOW+rGisBEHG6TARAvzDAJ9VKhZaCavnaM96MB9Z2Ob4Faj6yACdGQT6 BoPQNpLZQtdrEeC9IobSGeU= =fqXP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ianb at colorstudy.com Fri Apr 1 08:25:19 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Fri Apr 1 08:24:54 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI's new name In-Reply-To: <200504011610.06091.richardjones@optushome.com.au> References: <200504011610.06091.richardjones@optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <424CE94F.9030109@colorstudy.com> Richard Jones wrote: > http://www.mechanicalcat.net/richard/log/Python/PyPI_needs_a_new_name I like Ministry of Python Packages (MOPP). It's pronounceable, has good keywords, an acronym that's largely unused, and only sounds silly if you choose to expand the acronym. Personally -- and you can ignore me because there can be no consensus on these issues -- that's the only one I really liked besides eggs.python.org (which I also like). -- Ian Bicking / ianb@colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From bob at redivi.com Fri Apr 1 08:33:07 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Apr 1 14:25:45 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI's new name In-Reply-To: <424CE94F.9030109@colorstudy.com> References: <200504011610.06091.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <424CE94F.9030109@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <61d826b7fd230008cb831e052e3c0d37@redivi.com> On Apr 1, 2005, at 1:25 AM, Ian Bicking wrote: > Richard Jones wrote: >> http://www.mechanicalcat.net/richard/log/Python/PyPI_needs_a_new_name > > I like Ministry of Python Packages (MOPP). It's pronounceable, has > good keywords, an acronym that's largely unused, and only sounds silly > if you choose to expand the acronym. Personally -- and you can ignore > me because there can be no consensus on these issues -- that's the > only one I really liked besides eggs.python.org (which I also like). I like eggs, MOPP, and Pylon -- not necessarily in that order. -bob From bob at redivi.com Fri Apr 1 08:35:43 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Apr 1 14:25:46 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI's new name In-Reply-To: <61d826b7fd230008cb831e052e3c0d37@redivi.com> References: <200504011610.06091.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <424CE94F.9030109@colorstudy.com> <61d826b7fd230008cb831e052e3c0d37@redivi.com> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005, at 1:33 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > On Apr 1, 2005, at 1:25 AM, Ian Bicking wrote: > >> Richard Jones wrote: >>> http://www.mechanicalcat.net/richard/log/Python/PyPI_needs_a_new_name >> >> I like Ministry of Python Packages (MOPP). It's pronounceable, has >> good keywords, an acronym that's largely unused, and only sounds >> silly if you choose to expand the acronym. Personally -- and you can >> ignore me because there can be no consensus on these issues -- that's >> the only one I really liked besides eggs.python.org (which I also >> like). > > I like eggs, MOPP, and Pylon -- not necessarily in that order. On further inspection, Pylon was used as a name for an eiffel standard library , but it's been dead since Jan 1998 (replaced by Gobo)... so I guess that's not a problem. -bob From richardjones at optushome.com.au Mon Apr 4 07:37:40 2005 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Mon Apr 4 07:37:45 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI renaming options Message-ID: <200504041537.40224.richardjones@optushome.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 [This is also posted to http://www.mechanicalcat.net/richard/log/Python/PyPI_renaming_options] Thanks everyone who's thrown their ideas into the mix. Here's the list of potential names for PyPI, drawn from a number of sources, limited to only those which had "seconds": - - PyPI - - Shrubbery - - MOPP (Ministry of Python Packages) - - Eggs - - Eggcrate - - Pylon - - PyCAN - - Vault Personally, I'd rather not go with eggs or eggcrate, as that's only one of the formats of binary distribution (even if it might take over the Python binary distribution world). Pylon is just a little too obscure for me. PyPI is definitely out, given some feedback about potential misunderstandings ;). A number of us really don't like anything resembling CPAN. So the list really is: - - Shrubbery - - MOPP (Ministry of Python Packages) - - Vault Of those three, I'm tied between the last two. Anyone want to help me? Note that I'm not interested in new suggestions at this point :) I've contacted the Vaults of Parnassus people regarding all this to garner their input. Richard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCUNKkrGisBEHG6TARAgKcAJ9jp7CQC4qhP6FK/6Gxz2K4+zRWyQCfSDvu XfvAM9c0oNTPsciOtOy7tRw= =yFZ2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ianb at colorstudy.com Mon Apr 4 07:49:46 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon Apr 4 07:49:49 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI renaming options In-Reply-To: <200504041537.40224.richardjones@optushome.com.au> References: <200504041537.40224.richardjones@optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <4250D57A.7000707@colorstudy.com> Richard Jones wrote: > - - Shrubbery > - - MOPP (Ministry of Python Packages) > - - Vault "Shrubbery" doesn't mean anything to me, and I'd have a hard time using it in a sentence. "You can find that in the Shrubbery." I guess I could say "Python Shrubbery", but that hardly sounds like a *place*. So I don't see a whole lot going for that one. Vault sounds like a place, but isn't distinctive enough alone -- I'd have to call it the "Python Vault". vault.python.org indicates this as well, of course. This is a fine, straight-forward term, which makes its intent quite clear. But I do like MOPP, which is somewhere in between the two. It's a distinctive term -- the only Google results for "mopp" are medical, which we'd quickly outrank. Though I don't know exactly how I'd use it in a sentence. "You can find that in the MOPP"? That doesn't sound quite right to me... but maybe it just takes time to become familiar. I can almost imagine using "Ministry" more often, like "I notice you haven't submitted your package to the Ministry, tsk tsk". -- Ian Bicking / ianb@colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From deadwisdom at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 16:21:17 2005 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brant Harris) Date: Mon Apr 4 16:21:22 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI renaming options In-Reply-To: <4250D57A.7000707@colorstudy.com> References: <200504041537.40224.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <4250D57A.7000707@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <694c06d6050404072144889bff@mail.gmail.com> > I can almost imagine using "Ministry" more often, like "I notice you > haven't submitted your package to the Ministry, tsk tsk". Yes, using 'Ministry' is very good. It sounds both official, and very monty:pythonesque. It's important to be serious about not taking ourselves too seriously. From exarkun at divmod.com Mon Apr 4 19:03:41 2005 From: exarkun at divmod.com (Jp Calderone) Date: Mon Apr 4 19:03:52 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI renaming options In-Reply-To: <200504041537.40224.richardjones@optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <20050404170341.13806.828806368.divmod.quotient.44473@ohm> On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:37:40 +1000, Richard Jones > [snip] > > - - Shrubbery > - - MOPP (Ministry of Python Packages) > - - Vault > > Of those three, I'm tied between the last two. Anyone want to help me? Note > that I'm not interested in new suggestions at this point :) > > I've contacted the Vaults of Parnassus people regarding all this to garner > their input. > Note also the current existence of . Personally I'm +1 on MOPP. Jp From richardjones at optushome.com.au Thu Apr 7 05:11:01 2005 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Thu Apr 7 05:11:07 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do Message-ID: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 After polling around for ideas, and looking at the various alternatives, nothing really grabs me. "PyPI" captures the nature of the beast we've created well-enough. It's not too silly. It's short. It's in place. I think I've decided that it'll do. It really is only *potentially* confusing when you're in the same room as the PyPy people. Richard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCVKTFrGisBEHG6TARAt0+AJ0W+17N9k0pjemYakUchTuwjar9wQCeNIzh JybrS7evJl0nXlbo69GsJrQ= =PPbI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From deadwisdom at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 06:01:19 2005 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brant Harris) Date: Thu Apr 7 06:01:23 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> I think I have to raise objection. 'PyPI' might 'do', but we have a chance to create something that will capture imaginations. As much as I hate to admit it, it's the name and personality that will incite discourse and raise interest, only after that will its functionality shine. rant = """\ This gets at the heart of my criticism for Python. It's not the language itself, no we all know Python is glorious. It is the marketing. Right now Python is that really great Burrito joint down the street that no one goes to because of its dingy facade. Instead people go to Chipotle, which in this metaphor is probably Java. People try Chipotle because of its sexy and clean appearance. Now if people tried Taco and Burrito Palace #2, they would love it even more. But alas, all the managers that pick Burritos are afraid. To me this is the state of Python. People don't understand its full potential, because they check out the dingy website (even Ruby has a nicer site), and they hear the names, and they get an image in their minds that is completely counter to what Python really is. Now I know I am talking about superficialities here, and as a geek I understand it's completely against the geek code, but I believe it to be an important reality of our time. """ On Apr 6, 2005 10:11 PM, Richard Jones wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > After polling around for ideas, and looking at the various alternatives, > nothing really grabs me. "PyPI" captures the nature of the beast we've > created well-enough. It's not too silly. It's short. It's in place. I think > I've decided that it'll do. > > It really is only *potentially* confusing when you're in the same room as the > PyPy people. > > Richard > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFCVKTFrGisBEHG6TARAt0+AJ0W+17N9k0pjemYakUchTuwjar9wQCeNIzh > JybrS7evJl0nXlbo69GsJrQ= > =PPbI > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Catalog-sig mailing list > Catalog-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/catalog-sig > From richardjones at optushome.com.au Thu Apr 7 06:22:56 2005 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Thu Apr 7 06:23:10 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 02:01 pm, Brant Harris wrote: > I think I have to raise objection. 'PyPI' might 'do', but we have a > chance to create something that will capture imaginations. As much as > I hate to admit it, it's the name and personality that will incite > discourse and raise interest, only after that will its functionality > shine. I understand your point completely, but frankly none of the suggestions received thus far shine very brightly. Hence my post. Richard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCVLWhrGisBEHG6TARAgxkAJwO6u6TmavzU5X0ilI0Ryok8kiVQwCcDAmo teSkQOd1V/4sBg9+7Z0BKmo= =T+sC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bob at redivi.com Mon Apr 4 08:00:37 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu Apr 7 13:19:36 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI renaming options In-Reply-To: <4250D57A.7000707@colorstudy.com> References: <200504041537.40224.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <4250D57A.7000707@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <43fcb875bc53ad7839868b042b329dcb@redivi.com> On Apr 4, 2005, at 1:49, Ian Bicking wrote: > Richard Jones wrote: >> - - Shrubbery >> - - MOPP (Ministry of Python Packages) >> - - Vault > > "Shrubbery" doesn't mean anything to me, and I'd have a hard time > using it in a sentence. "You can find that in the Shrubbery." I > guess I could say "Python Shrubbery", but that hardly sounds like a > *place*. So I don't see a whole lot going for that one. > > Vault sounds like a place, but isn't distinctive enough alone -- I'd > have to call it the "Python Vault". vault.python.org indicates this > as well, of course. This is a fine, straight-forward term, which > makes its intent quite clear. > > But I do like MOPP, which is somewhere in between the two. It's a > distinctive term -- the only Google results for "mopp" are medical, > which we'd quickly outrank. Though I don't know exactly how I'd use > it in a sentence. "You can find that in the MOPP"? That doesn't > sound quite right to me... but maybe it just takes time to become > familiar. I can almost imagine using "Ministry" more often, like "I > notice you haven't submitted your package to the Ministry, tsk tsk". +1 for MOPP -bob From jhylton at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 14:59:13 2005 From: jhylton at gmail.com (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Thu Apr 7 14:59:16 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2005 12:22 AM, Richard Jones wrote: > I understand your point completely, but frankly none of the suggestions > received thus far shine very brightly. Hence my post. None of the proposals excite me either, but I might come around to MOPP/Ministry. I don't think I'd object to it. Do other similar systems have better names? If we had never heard of CPAN, would we be exicted about that name? Jeremy From bray at sent.com Thu Apr 7 15:06:06 2005 From: bray at sent.com (bray@sent.com) Date: Thu Apr 7 15:06:08 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> > > It really is only *potentially* confusing when you're in the same room as > the > PyPy people. > Are telling me this is *not* the PyPy mailing list! Well may I suggest we rewrite pypi in C, then? Nah, I have been sitting back. I think the name should change, if possible. Although it needs to be more descriptive on purpose.... If I saw 'MOPP' on a link on Python home page, I would not know what this is. From david.ascher at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 18:32:46 2005 From: david.ascher at gmail.com (David Ascher) Date: Thu Apr 7 18:32:48 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: I find the discussion depressing in many ways. How bout just "Python catalog" (hence the mailing list =). Acronyms are overrated. --da From hpk at trillke.net Thu Apr 7 22:48:53 2005 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Thu Apr 7 22:48:55 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <20050407204853.GF23818@solar.trillke.net> Hi Richard, On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 13:11 +1000, Richard Jones wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > After polling around for ideas, and looking at the various alternatives, > nothing really grabs me. "PyPI" captures the nature of the beast we've > created well-enough. It's not too silly. It's short. It's in place. I think > I've decided that it'll do. FWIW, i liked MOPP aka the ministry quite a bit. I recommend taking the discussion to just the core contributors (e.g. on IRC) and see if you get somewhere. > It really is only *potentially* confusing when you're in the > same room as the PyPy people. I don't mind getting occasionally confused people and pointing them to a great project. Btw, we had some hundred postings on c.l.py before we settled on the name PyPy. It's a good way to spread the word, though :-) Another note: it appears that pronouncing pypy/pypi means "tits" in japanese ... (which we only discovered after the fact, i swear, it might have changed my opinion). cheers, holger From trentm at ActiveState.com Thu Apr 7 22:51:29 2005 From: trentm at ActiveState.com (Trent Mick) Date: Thu Apr 7 22:56:26 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050407204853.GF23818@solar.trillke.net> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <20050407204853.GF23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: <20050407205129.GC24385@ActiveState.com> [holger krekel wrote] > FWIW, i liked MOPP aka the ministry quite a bit. Do the religious overtones of "ministry" not bother people at all? > Another note: it appears that pronouncing pypy/pypi means > "tits" in japanese ... Ruby doesn't have a chance at catching Python then. :) Trent -- Trent Mick TrentM@ActiveState.com From bray at sent.com Thu Apr 7 22:59:43 2005 From: bray at sent.com (bray@sent.com) Date: Thu Apr 7 22:59:55 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050407205129.GC24385@ActiveState.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <20050407204853.GF23818@solar.trillke.net> <20050407205129.GC24385@ActiveState.com> Message-ID: <1112907583.22388.231373115@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:51:29 -0700, "Trent Mick" said: > [holger krekel wrote] > > FWIW, i liked MOPP aka the ministry quite a bit. > > Do the religious overtones of "ministry" not bother people at all? > Reminds me of the death rock: http://www.ministrymusic.org/ From alikins at redhat.com Thu Apr 7 23:06:31 2005 From: alikins at redhat.com (Adrian Likins) Date: Thu Apr 7 23:11:02 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050407204853.GF23818@solar.trillke.net> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <20050407204853.GF23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: <20050407210631.GF1458@redhat.com> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 10:48:53PM +0200, holger krekel wrote: > Hi Richard, > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 13:11 +1000, Richard Jones wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > After polling around for ideas, and looking at the various alternatives, > > nothing really grabs me. "PyPI" captures the nature of the beast we've > > created well-enough. It's not too silly. It's short. It's in place. I think > > I've decided that it'll do. > > FWIW, i liked MOPP aka the ministry quite a bit. I recommend > taking the discussion to just the core contributors (e.g. on IRC) > and see if you get somewhere. > > > It really is only *potentially* confusing when you're in the > > same room as the PyPy people. > > I don't mind getting occasionally confused people and pointing > them to a great project. > > Btw, we had some hundred postings on c.l.py before we settled > on the name PyPy. It's a good way to spread the word, though :-) Seems like it's too late, but how about "pit". As in a snake pit? "Wheres foobar? It's in the pit". python installable taxonomy? python installable things? Can't think of a good acroymn myself. But not a big fan of "pypy". But then, I'm somewhat responsible for naming things like "grubby" and "booty", so what do I know about naming? ;-> Adrian` From deadwisdom at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 23:12:37 2005 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brant Harris) Date: Thu Apr 7 23:12:39 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <1112907583.22388.231373115@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <20050407204853.GF23818@solar.trillke.net> <20050407205129.GC24385@ActiveState.com> <1112907583.22388.231373115@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <694c06d605040714123098fd2@mail.gmail.com> Those things never occured to me. Perhaps this will help: http://www.mwscomp.com/mpfc/silwalk.html On Apr 7, 2005 3:59 PM, bray@sent.com wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:51:29 -0700, "Trent Mick" > said: > > [holger krekel wrote] > > > FWIW, i liked MOPP aka the ministry quite a bit. > > > > Do the religious overtones of "ministry" not bother people at all? > > > > Reminds me of the death rock: http://www.ministrymusic.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Catalog-sig mailing list > Catalog-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/catalog-sig > From hpk at trillke.net Thu Apr 7 23:29:58 2005 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Thu Apr 7 23:30:00 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050407205129.GC24385@ActiveState.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <20050407204853.GF23818@solar.trillke.net> <20050407205129.GC24385@ActiveState.com> Message-ID: <20050407212958.GH23818@solar.trillke.net> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 13:51 -0700, Trent Mick wrote: > [holger krekel wrote] > > FWIW, i liked MOPP aka the ministry quite a bit. > > Do the religious overtones of "ministry" not bother people at all? Ah, this connection didn't occur to me probably because i am not a native speaker. Anyway, playing a bit with terms of authority is a good thing IMO. And the python package ministry would be an authoritative source of python applications. Moreover, there is quite some preaching going on in open source land, anyway :-) holger From martin at v.loewis.de Thu Apr 7 23:41:46 2005 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=) Date: Thu Apr 7 23:41:50 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4255A91A.8080102@v.loewis.de> Brant Harris wrote: > Now I know I am talking about superficialities here, and as a geek I > understand it's completely against the geek code, but I believe it to > be an important reality of our time. I'm personally happy with the "publicity" that Python gets. It does what I want it to do for me - I don't want to impose it on anybody else. Others feel stronger about marketing, but I don't want to spend the little time I have on it. Regards, Matin From hpk at trillke.net Thu Apr 7 23:47:49 2005 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Thu Apr 7 23:47:51 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> Hi David, On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 09:32 -0700, David Ascher wrote: > I find the discussion depressing in many ways. Did i miss some of the discussion? At least on catalog-sig and in the blogs it was going quite ok in my opionion. But maybe we had different expectations :-) holger From david.ascher at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 02:13:50 2005 From: david.ascher at gmail.com (David Ascher) Date: Fri Apr 8 02:13:54 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: > > I find the discussion depressing in many ways. > > Did i miss some of the discussion? At least on catalog-sig > and in the blogs it was going quite ok in my opionion. > But maybe we had different expectations :-) I'm probably just being cranky for lack of sleep. Just ignore me =). my 2c: silly names are ok as long as they don't appear puerile (I fought hard against naming a graphics library "PIDDLE", even though I came across as a curmudgeon). I think the idea of joking around with religious terms like ministry is a bad idea, because we're not as funny as John Cleese & friends. Names should be pronouncable without needing to be taught how to pronounce them. Acronyms aren't required. Mostly, though, what matters more than names is what the software does, that the community rallies around it, and that it's useful to users. The vaults of parnassus got the success it had just because it was useful. The name was, if anything, IMO, a flaw, but it doesn't really matter so much in a community like ours. I guess I was depressed because I was excited to see energy going into PyPI, and was worried that that energy was being dissipated into naming discussions, which are most definitely exothermic. --da From tripp at perspex.com Fri Apr 8 06:13:35 2005 From: tripp at perspex.com (Tripp Lilley) Date: Fri Apr 8 06:13:42 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, David Ascher wrote: > I think the idea of joking around with religious terms like ministry is > a bad idea, because we're not as funny as John Cleese & friends. Just for the record, the term "ministry," outside the U.S., has more to do with administrative functions of government: http://www.google.com/search?q=ministry E.g.: Ministry of Defence (UK, Isreal) Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Japan, Isreal Ministry of Culture (Greece) Ministry of Finance (Japan) Ministry of Tourism (Egypt) and so forth. It's in that spirit that I think MOPP is really strong, and its value as a reference to the Ministry of Silly Walks sketch is just a side benefit, really. +1 on MOPP, from an outsider. From david.ascher at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 07:16:56 2005 From: david.ascher at gmail.com (David Ascher) Date: Fri Apr 8 07:17:00 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2005 9:13 PM, Tripp Lilley wrote: > On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, David Ascher wrote: > > > I think the idea of joking around with religious terms like ministry is > > a bad idea, because we're not as funny as John Cleese & friends. > > Just for the record, the term "ministry," outside the U.S., has more to do > with administrative functions of government: I'm well aware of that (I'm French =). However, I don't think the US perspective is insignificant when it comes to PR =). At least in France, it's also true that ministries bring forth concepts of inefficiency, bureaucracy, obnoxious power-hungry civil servants. Not exactly what I'd want associated w/ my software if it was mine, but whatever. =) From richardjones at optushome.com.au Fri Apr 8 11:40:29 2005 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Fri Apr 8 11:40:42 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: <200504081940.38054.richardjones@optushome.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:13 am, David Ascher wrote: > I guess I was depressed because I was excited to see energy going into > PyPI, and was worried that that energy was being dissipated into > naming discussions, which are most definitely exothermic. A point to be made here is that all the "hard" work is done -- the meta-data and file uploads all work. The system's ready to go. It just needs a name. Richard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCVlGVrGisBEHG6TARAuM3AJ413aTeY0DoHiDQbkA60srce2tsOwCcCgGI ZbepLjbIwR+l+KpzmYVsWpo= =N9vD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hpk at trillke.net Fri Apr 8 12:31:18 2005 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Fri Apr 8 12:31:21 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: <20050408103118.GR23818@solar.trillke.net> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:16 -0700, David Ascher wrote: > On Apr 7, 2005 9:13 PM, Tripp Lilley wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, David Ascher wrote: > > > > > I think the idea of joking around with religious terms like ministry is > > > a bad idea, because we're not as funny as John Cleese & friends. > > > > Just for the record, the term "ministry," outside the U.S., has more to do > > with administrative functions of government: > > I'm well aware of that (I'm French =). However, I don't think the US > perspective is insignificant when it comes to PR =). > > At least in France, it's also true that ministries bring forth > concepts of inefficiency, bureaucracy, obnoxious power-hungry civil > servants. Not exactly what I'd want associated w/ my software if it > was mine, but whatever. =) Hey, that sounds similar to what we have in germany, with the addition that they are even plainly evil in some respects (thinking of the incredible stance the "justice" ministry takes for software patents against a >90% anti-sw-patents vote of the national parliament). Believe it or not, i thought of MOPP bringing back some positive connotations to the term ... holger From slash at dotnetslash.net Fri Apr 8 12:52:27 2005 From: slash at dotnetslash.net (Mark W. Alexander) Date: Fri Apr 8 12:52:30 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050408103118.GR23818@solar.trillke.net> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> <20050408103118.GR23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: <20050408105227.GB5248@dotnetslash.net> On Fri, Apr 08, 2005 at 12:31:18PM +0200, holger krekel wrote: > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:16 -0700, David Ascher wrote: > > On Apr 7, 2005 9:13 PM, Tripp Lilley wrote: > > > On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, David Ascher wrote: > > > > > > > I think the idea of joking around with religious terms like ministry is > > > > a bad idea, because we're not as funny as John Cleese & friends. > > > > > > Just for the record, the term "ministry," outside the U.S., has more to do > > > with administrative functions of government: > > > > I'm well aware of that (I'm French =). However, I don't think the US > > perspective is insignificant when it comes to PR =). > > > > At least in France, it's also true that ministries bring forth > > concepts of inefficiency, bureaucracy, obnoxious power-hungry civil > > servants. Not exactly what I'd want associated w/ my software if it > > was mine, but whatever. =) > > Hey, that sounds similar to what we have in germany, with > the addition that they are even plainly evil in some respects > (thinking of the incredible stance the "justice" ministry > takes for software patents against a >90% anti-sw-patents > vote of the national parliament). Oh, OK. +1 on changing all U.S. agency names to "Ministry of ...." then ;) I liked the "pit" suggestion, but MOPP works for me too. Even with PyPI being discussed here, I have a hard time reading it as being anything other than something to do with math. (Could be the residual resentment of years of coerced advanced math in school.) I can hardly think of anything worse. Something that makes no sense at all is better than something that unintentionally confuses. mwa -- Mark W. Alexander slash@dotnetslash.net The contents of this message authored by Mark W. Alexander are released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license. Copyright of quoted materials, if any, are retained by the original author(s). http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.0/ From bob at redivi.com Fri Apr 8 00:08:17 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Apr 8 12:56:23 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050407212958.GH23818@solar.trillke.net> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <20050407204853.GF23818@solar.trillke.net> <20050407205129.GC24385@ActiveState.com> <20050407212958.GH23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2005, at 2:29 PM, holger krekel wrote: > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 13:51 -0700, Trent Mick wrote: >> [holger krekel wrote] >>> FWIW, i liked MOPP aka the ministry quite a bit. >> >> Do the religious overtones of "ministry" not bother people at all? > > Ah, this connection didn't occur to me probably because > i am not a native speaker. > > Anyway, playing a bit with terms of authority is a good > thing IMO. And the python package ministry would be an > authoritative source of python applications. Moreover, > there is quite some preaching going on in open source land, > anyway :-) The word Ministry isn't used only for religion, anyway... I usually think of "Ministry of Defence" -- which many countries seem to have (the US doesn't, though). -bob From tim at pollenation.net Fri Apr 8 13:14:43 2005 From: tim at pollenation.net (Tim Parkin) Date: Fri Apr 8 13:14:41 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050408105227.GB5248@dotnetslash.net> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> <20050408103118.GR23818@solar.trillke.net> <20050408105227.GB5248@dotnetslash.net> Message-ID: <425667A3.4060509@pollenation.net> Mark W. Alexander wrote: > I liked the "pit" suggestion, but MOPP works for me too. Even with PyPI > being discussed here, I have a hard time reading it as being anything > other than something to do with math. +1 for pypit (pyrepo?) Tim From tripp at perspex.com Fri Apr 8 16:03:21 2005 From: tripp at perspex.com (Tripp Lilley) Date: Fri Apr 8 16:03:29 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, David Ascher wrote: > I'm well aware of that (I'm French =). However, I don't think the US > perspective is insignificant when it comes to PR =). Ah, sorry, I jumped to concussions. > At least in France, it's also true that ministries bring forth > concepts of inefficiency, bureaucracy, obnoxious power-hungry civil > servants. Not exactly what I'd want associated w/ my software if it > was mine, but whatever. =) That being the case, and since "Bureaus" occupy the same socially reviled place in the US, I propose a slight modification to the MOPP proposal: M/BOPP: The Ministry / Bureau of Python Packages It's also a tribute to Hanson! http://www.hanson.net/ Heh. From tripp at perspex.com Fri Apr 8 16:06:46 2005 From: tripp at perspex.com (Tripp Lilley) Date: Fri Apr 8 16:06:54 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <425667A3.4060509@pollenation.net> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> <20050408103118.GR23818@solar.trillke.net> <20050408105227.GB5248@dotnetslash.net> <425667A3.4060509@pollenation.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Apr 2005, Tim Parkin wrote: > +1 for pypit (pyrepo?) pypo: the python 'pository is where you're 'posed to put packages From amk at amk.ca Fri Apr 8 16:08:07 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri Apr 8 16:08:47 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <1112879166.21390.231333459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050407214749.GK23818@solar.trillke.net> Message-ID: <20050408140807.GA6938@rogue.amk.ca> Bored, now. +1 for whoever suggested calling it "the catalog" and getting on with our lives. --amk From lac at strakt.com Tue Apr 12 17:57:14 2005 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue Apr 12 17:57:23 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: Message from Jeremy Hylton of "Thu, 07 Apr 2005 08:59:13 EDT." References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> I think that our problem is that PyPan is _the_ cute, catchy name we want. But alas, Thomas Heller already has it for his package manager: http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/pypan/ But I have no idea how he would feel about giving the name up, and how many people this would inconvenience if he did so. PiPan seems free, as is PiePan, but I like my 'Pi' with 'Y' :-) Laura In a message of Thu, 07 Apr 2005 08:59:13 EDT, Jeremy Hylton writes: >On Apr 7, 2005 12:22 AM, Richard Jones wr >ote: >> I understand your point completely, but frankly none of the suggestions >> received thus far shine very brightly. Hence my post. > >None of the proposals excite me either, but I might come around to >MOPP/Ministry. I don't think I'd object to it. Do other similar >systems have better names? If we had never heard of CPAN, would we be >exicted about that name? > >Jeremy >_______________________________________________ >Catalog-sig mailing list >Catalog-sig@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/catalog-sig From ehs at pobox.com Tue Apr 12 18:49:04 2005 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Tue Apr 12 18:49:07 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20050412164904.GA9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 05:57:14PM +0200, Laura Creighton wrote: > I think that our problem is that PyPan is _the_ cute, catchy name > we want. But alas, Thomas Heller already has it for his package > manager: http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/pypan/ > > But I have no idea how he would feel about giving the name up, and > how many people this would inconvenience if he did so. PiPan seems > free, as is PiePan, but I like my 'Pi' with 'Y' :-) You know, it might be even cuter to just call it CPAN. CPAN afterall stands for the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network, and could just as easily be Comprehensive Python Archive Network. cpan.python.org It has a certain ring to it :) //Ed From jhylton at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 18:51:13 2005 From: jhylton at gmail.com (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Tue Apr 12 18:51:16 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/05, Laura Creighton wrote: > I think that our problem is that PyPan is _the_ cute, catchy name > we want. But alas, Thomas Heller already has it for his package > manager: http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/pypan/ > > But I have no idea how he would feel about giving the name up, and > how many people this would inconvenience if he did so. PiPan seems > free, as is PiePan, but I like my 'Pi' with 'Y' :-) I have to admit that I don't like PyPan or however you spell it. On the whole, I'm tired of names that start with Py. Jeremy From theller at python.net Tue Apr 12 18:51:18 2005 From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller) Date: Tue Apr 12 18:54:08 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Re: Perhaps "PyPI" will do References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> Message-ID: Laura Creighton writes: > I think that our problem is that PyPan is _the_ cute, catchy name > we want. But alas, Thomas Heller already has it for his package > manager: http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/pypan/ > > But I have no idea how he would feel about giving the name up, and > how many people this would inconvenience if he did so. PiPan seems > free, as is PiePan, but I like my 'Pi' with 'Y' :-) > > Laura Feel free to use the name for whatever you want. I doubt anyone except myself (and that only for testing it out) has ever used this stuff. Thomas From alikins at redhat.com Tue Apr 12 18:56:53 2005 From: alikins at redhat.com (Adrian Likins) Date: Tue Apr 12 19:01:15 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050412164904.GA9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> <20050412164904.GA9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: <20050412165653.GA22733@redhat.com> On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 11:49:04AM -0500, Ed Summers wrote: > On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 05:57:14PM +0200, Laura Creighton wrote: > > I think that our problem is that PyPan is _the_ cute, catchy name > > we want. But alas, Thomas Heller already has it for his package > > manager: http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/pypan/ > > > > But I have no idea how he would feel about giving the name up, and > > how many people this would inconvenience if he did so. PiPan seems > > free, as is PiePan, but I like my 'Pi' with 'Y' :-) > > You know, it might be even cuter to just call it CPAN. CPAN afterall > stands for the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network, and could just as > easily be Comprehensive Python Archive Network. > > cpan.python.org > Or for that matter, just CAN. A can of snakes even sort of has a meaning. But I'd prefer something boring and generic over PyPI. "PyPI" has no meaning to just about anyone. Something like "archive.python.org" or "depot.python.org" or "library.python.org". hmm, how about "Repo Of Python, Organized"... REPO... I kind of like that, simple, descriptive, recursive... or DEPOT "Depot of Everything Python Organized Thoughtfully"? Adrian From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Apr 12 19:16:26 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue Apr 12 19:18:19 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> Message-ID: <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> Jeremy Hylton wrote: > On 4/12/05, Laura Creighton wrote: > >>I think that our problem is that PyPan is _the_ cute, catchy name >>we want. But alas, Thomas Heller already has it for his package >>manager: http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/pypan/ >> >>But I have no idea how he would feel about giving the name up, and >>how many people this would inconvenience if he did so. PiPan seems >>free, as is PiePan, but I like my 'Pi' with 'Y' :-) > > > I have to admit that I don't like PyPan or however you spell it. On > the whole, I'm tired of names that start with Py. While I'd generally agree, in this case it's actually a project *about* Python, not merely written in Python, so it's more justifiable. Of course, having python.org in the URL also makes that obvious. This is, however, turning into one of those bikeshed moments: http://www.unixguide.net/freebsd/faq/16.19.shtml Is index.python.org the most boring but readable and straight-forward choice? It's just like PyPI, but "Py" becomes "python.org", and the second P kind of disapears, and we expand the I... so it's not a choice at all, just a respelling of the current name ;) -- Ian Bicking / ianb@colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From ehs at pobox.com Tue Apr 12 19:26:12 2005 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Tue Apr 12 19:26:15 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 12:16:26PM -0500, Ian Bicking wrote: > Is index.python.org the most boring but readable and straight-forward > choice? It's just like PyPI, but "Py" becomes "python.org", and the > second P kind of disapears, and we expand the I... so it's not a choice > at all, just a respelling of the current name ;) index.python.org +1 as for the bikeshed, i totally agree (but can't it be red) //Ed From deadwisdom at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 20:48:22 2005 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brant Harris) Date: Tue Apr 12 20:50:23 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> Message-ID: <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> > Is index.python.org the most boring but readable and straight-forward > choice? It's just like PyPI, but "Py" becomes "python.org", and the > second P kind of disapears, and we expand the I... so it's not a choice > at all, just a respelling of the current name ;) index.python.org +2 green + 1 From fdrake at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 21:19:24 2005 From: fdrake at gmail.com (Fred Drake) Date: Tue Apr 12 21:19:27 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 12, 2005 2:48 PM, Brant Harris wrote: > index.python.org +2 I think index.python.org is a terrible name. archive.python.org is better, by a little bit. Now that PyPI has both index and archive functions, we should probably think about whcih we want to emphasize. If we care about "competing" with CPAN (which stands for "Comprehensive Perl Archive Network", never mind that it *could* stand for other things), then the archive aspect is important and should be emphasized. I think "index" alone simply doesn't say anything to most users, even when we're only considering programmers. "archive" is better because it suggests things in storage and a way to find them, but I'd be just as happy to find mailing list archives there. "packages" may be better, because at least it says what can be found there. It doesn't have any glitz, though, and just a little bit of that would be nice. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. From trentm at ActiveState.com Tue Apr 12 21:42:39 2005 From: trentm at ActiveState.com (Trent Mick) Date: Tue Apr 12 21:47:40 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> [Fred Drake on "index"] > I think index.python.org is a terrible name. archive.python.org is > better, by a little bit. > > ... > > I think "index" alone simply doesn't say anything to most users, even > when we're only considering programmers. "archive" is better because > it suggests things in storage and a way to find them, but I'd be just > as happy to find mailing list archives there. > > "packages" may be better, because at least it says what can be found > there. It doesn't have any glitz, though, and just a little bit of > that would be nice. +1 on "catalog" as DavidA (I think, or was it AMK?) suggested. It is good enough for the mailing list about this. Trent -- Trent Mick TrentM@ActiveState.com From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Apr 12 22:36:57 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue Apr 12 22:38:56 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <425C3169.7000902@colorstudy.com> Fred Drake wrote: > On Apr 12, 2005 2:48 PM, Brant Harris wrote: > >>index.python.org +2 > > > I think index.python.org is a terrible name. archive.python.org is > better, by a little bit. Or you could have both -- archive.python.org as the download site (maybe easier to set up mirroring with a separate domain name -- download.python.org would be just as good in that respect), maybe index.python.org as the web frontend (what PyPI has been providing all along). Or catalog.python.org, or packages.python.org -- they are all just fine. I think they all are reasonably easy to pronounce, aren't redundant (pypi.python.org would be redundant, and hard to pronounce), and pretty clear about what (generally) they provide. It's boring, but I think it's okay if PyPI ultimately comes off as boring, as long as it works well and is easy to use. I think a separate domain name would be nice, though, whatever the domain name might be. But I really think domain names look more professional when they are painted blue ;) -- Ian Bicking / ianb@colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From tim at pollenation.net Tue Apr 12 23:01:24 2005 From: tim at pollenation.net (Tim Parkin) Date: Tue Apr 12 23:01:30 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504071422.57879.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> Message-ID: <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> Trent Mick wrote: > [Fred Drake on "index"] > >>I think index.python.org is a terrible name. archive.python.org is >>better, by a little bit. > > +1 on "catalog" as DavidA (I think, or was it AMK?) suggested. It is > good enough for the mailing list about this. > > Trent > I like simple so I'll bow out with .. packages so that would be +1 on packages from me then (and packages.python.org) although i'd be happy with archive or even catalog .. index sounds like it should be a sitemap of python.org Tim ps google is already ranking python.org/pypi for the search 'python packages' From jhylton at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 23:04:05 2005 From: jhylton at gmail.com (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Tue Apr 12 23:04:09 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> Message-ID: Why do we need a separate domain for this service? Isn't python.org/packages just as good? It seems to me like doc.python.org has been a disaster not worth repeating. (That is, whenever I do a search for Python documentation I can random mirrors and never see python.org results.) Jeremy From tim at pollenation.net Tue Apr 12 23:42:35 2005 From: tim at pollenation.net (Tim Parkin) Date: Tue Apr 12 23:42:32 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> Message-ID: <425C40CB.5070605@pollenation.net> Jeremy Hylton wrote: > Why do we need a separate domain for this service? Isn't > python.org/packages just as good? It seems to me like doc.python.org > has been a disaster not worth repeating. (That is, whenever I do a > search for Python documentation I can random mirrors and never see > python.org results.) agreed ... although it might be useful for the *service* if an alternate ip were needed. There has been previous suggestion that docs.python.org would be a good way of isolating the documentation for use with googles site search facility although this hasn't actually been implemented and you can achieve the same through using googles allinurl function eg heres a search for pickle in the 2.4 docs http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Awww.python.org+inurl%3A2%5C.4+intitle%3Apickle anyway... completely off topic. Tim From bob at redivi.com Wed Apr 13 00:25:30 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed Apr 13 01:32:44 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <425C40CB.5070605@pollenation.net> References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <200504121557.j3CFvFIb006963@theraft.strakt.com> <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> <425C40CB.5070605@pollenation.net> Message-ID: <36156A95-D677-4152-B693-F1318051256E@redivi.com> On Apr 12, 2005, at 5:42 PM, Tim Parkin wrote: > Jeremy Hylton wrote: > >> Why do we need a separate domain for this service? Isn't >> python.org/packages just as good? It seems to me like doc.python.org >> has been a disaster not worth repeating. (That is, whenever I do a >> search for Python documentation I can random mirrors and never see >> python.org results.) >> > > agreed ... although it might be useful for the *service* if an > alternate ip were needed. There has been previous suggestion that > docs.python.org would be a good way of isolating the documentation > for use with googles site search facility although this hasn't > actually been implemented and you can achieve the same through > using googles allinurl function eg > > heres a search for pickle in the 2.4 docs > http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Awww.python.org+inurl%3A2%5C. > 4+intitle%3Apickle What do you mean hasn't been implemented? Anyway, the docs.python.org search is easier to type and requires less google-fu.. searching for "pickle site:docs.python.org" works great. -bob From richardjones at optushome.com.au Wed Apr 13 01:39:57 2005 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Wed Apr 13 01:40:08 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504071311.01530.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504130939.57294.richardjones@optushome.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 05:19 am, Fred Drake wrote: > On Apr 12, 2005 2:48 PM, Brant Harris wrote: > > index.python.org +2 > > I think index.python.org is a terrible name. archive.python.org is > better, by a little bit. > > Now that PyPI has both index and archive functions, we should probably > think about whcih we want to emphasize. Definitely the CPAN-like aspects, as that's "the number one reason I don't use Python" in the words of so many slashdotters. > If we care about "competing" > with CPAN (which stands for "Comprehensive Perl Archive Network", > never mind that it *could* stand for other things), then the archive > aspect is important and should be emphasized. And lends a lot of weight to the "PyPAN" name, even though I don't like it :) > I think "index" alone simply doesn't say anything to most users, even > when we're only considering programmers. "archive" is better because > it suggests things in storage and a way to find them, but I'd be just > as happy to find mailing list archives there. > > "packages" may be better, because at least it says what can be found > there. It doesn't have any glitz, though, and just a little bit of > that would be nice. This discussion seems to have diverted down the path of talking about URL components. The issue here isn't the URL, it's the name. "CPAN" is immediately identifiable as "the place you go to get poorly-written Perl modules". "packages" means ... er ... Same with "index", "archive" and any other common word. The name needs to include either the word "python" or something so unique it couldn't be confused (which is why I went down the "shrubbery" path). So, I believe we need a name / acronym that's "catchy" like "CPAN" (it's got a good rythm) that's not "PyPAN" (ie. just "CPAN" with a letter changed) So, taking: Python Archive (registry) Repository (treasury) Index Packages Extensions Modules Central? Network? I get: Comprehensive Python Archive Network CPAN Python Package Archive Network PyPAN Python Central Archive of Packages PyCAP Python Repository of Packages PROP Python Central Archive Repository PyCAR Treasury Of Python TOP Central Archive Repository of Python CARP Central Repository Archive of Python CRAP (or Py ;) Python Central Repository Archive of Packages PyCRAP Seminal Python Archive of Modules SPAM I hereby request that any future responses (even "me too" ones) to this thread must include at least ten name ideas :) Richard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCXFxNrGisBEHG6TARAjTXAJ4tkP6p2tmpCFXCRclabl0hqhYBXACdF1Js LsMXk17JeQcLDA0tRorIEAw= =srHA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fdrake at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 04:01:08 2005 From: fdrake at gmail.com (Fred Drake) Date: Wed Apr 13 04:01:11 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <36156A95-D677-4152-B693-F1318051256E@redivi.com> References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <425C026A.9040302@colorstudy.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> <425C40CB.5070605@pollenation.net> <36156A95-D677-4152-B693-F1318051256E@redivi.com> Message-ID: <9cee7ab8050412190137113dda@mail.gmail.com> Regarding docs.python.org and Google-fu: On 4/12/05, Bob Ippolito wrote: > What do you mean hasn't been implemented? I don't know exactly what Jeremy meant, but I do know that for a while the Google search box on docs.python.org was doing a www.python.org search instead of the intended docs.python.org search. I fixed this a week or so ago, so the docs.python.org search is now automatic from the front pages of docs.python.org. I still need to do something about adding it to the rest of docs.python.org, though. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. From clayton.brown at digitalrum.com Wed Apr 13 12:18:00 2005 From: clayton.brown at digitalrum.com (Clayton Brown) Date: Wed Apr 13 12:18:02 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Re: Perhaps "PyPI" will do Message-ID: We come back bring PyPan! ..sorry beta pun I couldn't resist catalog.python.org + 1 > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Heller [mailto:theller@python.net] > Sent: 12 April 2005 17:51 > To: catalog-sig@python.org > Subject: [Catalog-sig] Re: Perhaps "PyPI" will do > > > Laura Creighton writes: > > > I think that our problem is that PyPan is _the_ cute, > catchy name we > > want. But alas, Thomas Heller already has it for his package > > manager: http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/pypan/ > > > > But I have no idea how he would feel about giving the name > up, and how > > many people this would inconvenience if he did so. PiPan > seems free, > > as is PiePan, but I like my 'Pi' with 'Y' :-) > > > > Laura > > Feel free to use the name for whatever you want. I doubt > anyone except myself (and that only for testing it out) has > ever used this stuff. > > Thomas > > _______________________________________________ > Catalog-sig mailing list > Catalog-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/catalog-sig > From clayton.brown at digitalrum.com Wed Apr 13 12:21:29 2005 From: clayton.brown at digitalrum.com (Clayton Brown) Date: Wed Apr 13 12:21:30 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do Message-ID: Game on... And then people will already know its purpose if they are aware of the perl equivalent > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Summers [mailto:ehs@pobox.com] > Sent: 12 April 2005 17:49 > To: catalog-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do > > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 05:57:14PM +0200, Laura Creighton wrote: > > I think that our problem is that PyPan is _the_ cute, > catchy name we > > want. But alas, Thomas Heller already has it for his package > > manager: http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/pypan/ > > > > But I have no idea how he would feel about giving the name > up, and how > > many people this would inconvenience if he did so. PiPan > seems free, > > as is PiePan, but I like my 'Pi' with 'Y' :-) > > You know, it might be even cuter to just call it CPAN. CPAN > afterall stands for the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network, > and could just as easily be Comprehensive Python Archive Network. > > cpan.python.org > > It has a certain ring to it :) > > //Ed > _______________________________________________ > Catalog-sig mailing list > Catalog-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/catalog-sig > From jhylton at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 15:15:42 2005 From: jhylton at gmail.com (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Wed Apr 13 15:15:51 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <9cee7ab8050412190137113dda@mail.gmail.com> References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> <425C40CB.5070605@pollenation.net> <36156A95-D677-4152-B693-F1318051256E@redivi.com> <9cee7ab8050412190137113dda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/05, Fred Drake wrote: > Regarding docs.python.org and Google-fu: > > On 4/12/05, Bob Ippolito wrote: > > What do you mean hasn't been implemented? > > I don't know exactly what Jeremy meant, but I do know that for a while > the Google search box on docs.python.org was doing a www.python.org > search instead of the intended docs.python.org search. > > I fixed this a week or so ago, so the docs.python.org search is now > automatic from the front pages of docs.python.org. I still need to > do something about adding it to the rest of docs.python.org, though. I mean that if I go to google.com and type in something related to Python documentation, none of the results are from python.org. They are all from mirrors of python.org + docs.python.org and from places like pydoc.org. In the good old days, I could do a simple search for Python documentation -- just enter the words I was looking for, perhaps with python as an added term -- and the www.python.org results would be in the top 5. I think that's bad for Python users, because most of the people who do those queries would be best served going to python.org. Jeremy From bob at redivi.com Wed Apr 13 15:40:34 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed Apr 13 15:43:53 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <20050412172612.GB9143@chloe.inkdroid.org> <694c06d60504121148579eab97@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> <425C40CB.5070605@pollenation.net> <36156A95-D677-4152-B693-F1318051256E@redivi.com> <9cee7ab8050412190137113dda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 13, 2005, at 9:15 AM, Jeremy Hylton wrote: > On 4/12/05, Fred Drake wrote: >> Regarding docs.python.org and Google-fu: >> >> On 4/12/05, Bob Ippolito wrote: >>> What do you mean hasn't been implemented? >> >> I don't know exactly what Jeremy meant, but I do know that for a while >> the Google search box on docs.python.org was doing a www.python.org >> search instead of the intended docs.python.org search. >> >> I fixed this a week or so ago, so the docs.python.org search is now >> automatic from the front pages of docs.python.org. I still need to >> do something about adding it to the rest of docs.python.org, though. > > I mean that if I go to google.com and type in something related to > Python documentation, none of the results are from python.org. They > are all from mirrors of python.org + docs.python.org and from places > like pydoc.org. In the good old days, I could do a simple search for > Python documentation -- just enter the words I was looking for, > perhaps with python as an added term -- and the www.python.org results > would be in the top 5. > > I think that's bad for Python users, because most of the people who do > those queries would be best served going to python.org. Before docs.python.org, when I did the same searches, I always ended up with garbage from mailing list archives -- not real documentation. -bob From jhylton at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 16:32:09 2005 From: jhylton at gmail.com (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Wed Apr 13 16:32:12 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> <425C40CB.5070605@pollenation.net> <36156A95-D677-4152-B693-F1318051256E@redivi.com> <9cee7ab8050412190137113dda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/05, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Before docs.python.org, when I did the same searches, I always ended up > with garbage from mailing list archives -- not real documentation. I agree mailing list archives are a problem, but I used to get by just fine with regular search. To the extent that I still get useful results, the documentation comes from mirror sites. Jeremy From fdrake at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 16:34:46 2005 From: fdrake at gmail.com (Fred Drake) Date: Wed Apr 13 16:34:53 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> <425C40CB.5070605@pollenation.net> <36156A95-D677-4152-B693-F1318051256E@redivi.com> <9cee7ab8050412190137113dda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9cee7ab805041307344b35b694@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/05, Jeremy Hylton wrote: > I agree mailing list archives are a problem, but I used to get by just > fine with regular search. To the extent that I still get useful > results, the documentation comes from mirror sites. Is it a problem for it to come from mirrors? Is there something that could/should be done to ensure that Google realizes these are mirrored copies? -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. From bob at redivi.com Wed Apr 13 16:48:03 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed Apr 13 17:15:55 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <9cee7ab805041212193b7eba0c@mail.gmail.com> <20050412194239.GB7221@ActiveState.com> <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> <425C40CB.5070605@pollenation.net> <36156A95-D677-4152-B693-F1318051256E@redivi.com> <9cee7ab8050412190137113dda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1d6dd380f4e6af564ac1c8f4b18a1ce7@redivi.com> On Apr 13, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Jeremy Hylton wrote: > On 4/13/05, Bob Ippolito wrote: >> Before docs.python.org, when I did the same searches, I always ended >> up >> with garbage from mailing list archives -- not real documentation. > > I agree mailing list archives are a problem, but I used to get by just > fine with regular search. To the extent that I still get useful > results, the documentation comes from mirror sites. I remember that when I was learning the C API, google was hardly useful at all because of the over-abundance of mailing list results and random source code snippets.. with site:docs.python.org, I have no problems. This was the major reason I submitted a feature request to create docs.python.org in the first place, so you can blame it on me (but obviously at least one person with access to implement also thought it was a good idea). Just try searching for PyObject_GetAttr with and without site:docs.python.org Additionally, docs.python.org ensures that you find the latest documentation. Without it, you'll often end up with junk from 1.5, 2.1, etc. -bob From janc13 at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 03:27:00 2005 From: janc13 at gmail.com (JanC) Date: Sat Apr 16 03:27:06 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Perhaps "PyPI" will do In-Reply-To: <1d6dd380f4e6af564ac1c8f4b18a1ce7@redivi.com> References: <694c06d605040621011726caad@mail.gmail.com> <425C3724.1030801@pollenation.net> <425C40CB.5070605@pollenation.net> <36156A95-D677-4152-B693-F1318051256E@redivi.com> <9cee7ab8050412190137113dda@mail.gmail.com> <1d6dd380f4e6af564ac1c8f4b18a1ce7@redivi.com> Message-ID: <984838bf050415182772cd3229@mail.gmail.com> Bob Ippolito wrote: > I remember that when I was learning the C API, google was hardly useful > at all because of the over-abundance of mailing list results and random > source code snippets.. with site:docs.python.org, I have no problems. Even better: these days most browsers allow custom searches in one way or another (and most of them in more than one way). E.g., try the following if you are a Firefox or Mozilla user... Create a new bookmark like this: - Name: Google Search in Python Documentation - Location: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:docs.python.org+%s - Keyword: docpy Now when you type "docpy test" in the address bar you get get the google search results for the word "test" within the docs.python.org domain. (A similar feature is included in Opera & Konqueror, and AFAIK in other browsers too.) -- JanC From jeremy.kloth at fourthought.com Mon Apr 18 21:42:55 2005 From: jeremy.kloth at fourthought.com (Jeremy Kloth) Date: Mon Apr 18 21:42:39 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Contacting package owner Message-ID: <200504181342.55310.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> As the authors of 4Suite, we would like to add our most recent release to PyPI but cannot do so as we didn't add the original package. Is there as way to contact the PyPI owner? I've searched the interface but to no avail. -- Jeremy Kloth Fourthought, Inc. http://fourthought.com/ http://4suite.org/ From martin at v.loewis.de Mon Apr 18 22:28:53 2005 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=) Date: Mon Apr 18 22:28:55 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Contacting package owner In-Reply-To: <200504181342.55310.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> References: <200504181342.55310.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> Message-ID: <42641885.5050007@v.loewis.de> Jeremy Kloth wrote: > As the authors of 4Suite, we would like to add our most recent release to PyPI > but cannot do so as we didn't add the original package. Is there as way to > contact the PyPI owner? I've searched the interface but to no avail. You can guess from the account name of the owner: Google tells you that "aaronsw" most likely is Aaron Swartz (just ask "aaronsw 4Suite"). In general, no, this is not possible, but probably should be - please add a feature request to sf.net/projects/pypi. It might also be sensible to regularly (e.g. once a year) send a keep-alive message to all registered users; if the message bounces, we could remove them from PyPI, and if that causes a package to be without owner, to remove the package as well. Regards, Martin From ianb at colorstudy.com Mon Apr 18 22:34:45 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon Apr 18 22:36:52 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Contacting package owner In-Reply-To: <42641885.5050007@v.loewis.de> References: <200504181342.55310.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> <42641885.5050007@v.loewis.de> Message-ID: <426419E5.6010205@colorstudy.com> Martin v. L?wis wrote: > Jeremy Kloth wrote: > >>As the authors of 4Suite, we would like to add our most recent release to PyPI >>but cannot do so as we didn't add the original package. Is there as way to >>contact the PyPI owner? I've searched the interface but to no avail. > > > You can guess from the account name of the owner: Google tells you that > "aaronsw" most likely is Aaron Swartz (just ask "aaronsw 4Suite"). > > In general, no, this is not possible, but probably should be - please > add a feature request to sf.net/projects/pypi. > > It might also be sensible to regularly (e.g. once a year) send a > keep-alive message to all registered users; if the message bounces, > we could remove them from PyPI, and if that causes a package > to be without owner, to remove the package as well. We shouldn't get rid of packages unless the site disappears (though we could mark the package as possibly orphaned). Or the owner maybe could become null, and allow another person to take the project over. In most cases I'd rather anyone be able to edit a package, with the owner being notified. Even when the owner hasn't disappeared, in many open source projects the person who updates the package for one release won't be the same person as for the next release. Complicated permission systems seem unnecessary -- (fairly) open editing with notification should be enough. Or, notification with required confirmation, where if the author doesn't explicitly reject a change it gets put in by default. -- Ian Bicking / ianb@colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From jeremy.kloth at fourthought.com Mon Apr 18 23:11:42 2005 From: jeremy.kloth at fourthought.com (Jeremy Kloth) Date: Mon Apr 18 23:12:09 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Fwd: Re: 4Suite PyPI pacakge In-Reply-To: <200504181501.33032.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> References: <200504181432.03199.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> <200504181501.33032.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> Message-ID: <200504181511.42488.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> While attempting to resolve the 4Suite package ownership, this issue came up. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: 4Suite PyPI pacakge Date: Monday 18 April 2005 3:07 pm From: Aaron Swartz To: Jeremy Kloth Maybe you can email catalog-sig and tell them to fix http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1178266&group_id=661 50&atid=513503 I suspect you'd hold a lot more sway than I would. ------------------------------------------------------- -- Jeremy Kloth Fourthought, Inc. http://fourthought.com/ http://4suite.org/ From jeremy.kloth at fourthought.com Mon Apr 18 23:24:38 2005 From: jeremy.kloth at fourthought.com (Jeremy Kloth) Date: Mon Apr 18 23:24:22 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Contacting package owner In-Reply-To: <42641885.5050007@v.loewis.de> References: <200504181342.55310.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> <42641885.5050007@v.loewis.de> Message-ID: <200504181524.39054.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> On Monday 18 April 2005 2:28 pm, Martin v. L?wis wrote: > Jeremy Kloth wrote: > > As the authors of 4Suite, we would like to add our most recent release to > > PyPI but cannot do so as we didn't add the original package. Is there as > > way to contact the PyPI owner? I've searched the interface but to no > > avail. > > You can guess from the account name of the owner: Google tells you that > "aaronsw" most likely is Aaron Swartz (just ask "aaronsw 4Suite"). I did end up doing just that, but Aaron has run into a snag in trying to give us ownership: From Aaron Swartz : >Maybe you can email catalog-sig and tell them to fix >http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1178266&group_id=66150&atid=513503 > >I suspect you'd hold a lot more sway than I would. -- Jeremy Kloth Fourthought, Inc. http://fourthought.com/ http://4suite.org/ From richardjones at optushome.com.au Wed Apr 20 05:26:46 2005 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Wed Apr 20 05:26:56 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Contacting package owner In-Reply-To: <42641885.5050007@v.loewis.de> References: <200504181342.55310.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> <42641885.5050007@v.loewis.de> Message-ID: <200504201326.51271.richardjones@optushome.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:28 am, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote: > It might also be sensible to regularly (e.g. once a year) send a > keep-alive message to all registered users; if the message bounces, > we could remove them from PyPI, and if that causes a package > to be without owner, to remove the package as well. I've suggested this in the past - it's a script that just needs an author ;) I'd not remove the package entirely though. Richard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCZcv3rGisBEHG6TARAv7vAJwL48RzBY85eSWF5IyU2KY0h6G0UgCePa4F uolIN+LL2CNE6JsqMMF0gr8= =XG6J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From richardjones at optushome.com.au Wed Apr 20 11:28:23 2005 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Wed Apr 20 11:28:30 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Contacting package owner In-Reply-To: <200504181524.39054.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> References: <200504181342.55310.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> <42641885.5050007@v.loewis.de> <200504181524.39054.jeremy.kloth@fourthought.com> Message-ID: <200504201928.23485.richardjones@optushome.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:24 am, Jeremy Kloth wrote: > I did end up doing just that, but Aaron has run into a snag in trying to > give > > us ownership: > >From Aaron Swartz : > >Maybe you can email catalog-sig and tell them to fix > >http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1178266&group_id= > >66150&atid=513503 This is fixed now. Richard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCZiC3rGisBEHG6TARAu5QAJ9X2NQ2ZV3xwo5gAClZiI0uf1anjgCfeeDE La9/uaHqjyNH609hVw66ZAs= =unza -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mauriceling at acm.org Wed Apr 27 00:34:37 2005 From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice Ling) Date: Wed Apr 27 00:34:45 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Package maintenance mechanism for Python Message-ID: <426EC1FD.6030405@acm.org> Hi all, I am new to this list. To cut matters short, my concern is this, PyPI has a module upload mechanism. But is there a module download mechanism. By that, I meant a mechanism which system admins can use to download and install a module (library) and keep track of what is installed into site-package directory through this mechanism? The problem I see is that maintaining 3rd party libraries in site-package is a task for system admins or developers, especially when new versions of Python is installed (say from Python 2.3 to Python 2.4). All of the libraries (esp those with C modules) needs to be recompiled. Is there a mechanism for the programmers to find out what is installed in say, Python2.3's site-packages and download the same modules from PyPI and install them in Python2.4's site-packages? I had posted the following in python-list but will replicate it here for completeness: ======================================================================== Perhaps this is another call for Python version of CPAN (CPyAN or PYAN). It can be modelled after Fink or Darwinports. If I remembered correctly, Fink uses apt-get and curl. What can be done in PYAN is to encourage all 3rd party library developers to centralize their libraries in it, which I think all will gladly respond. All that is needed to be deposited in PYAN is a description file, like the simplest setup.py file. All that is needed in this description file is 1. where to download the source codes (e.g. CVS)? 2. version number? 3. standard stuffs (optional) like authors, descriptions, copyright? Python can then have a built-in mechanism to read the description file and download the source codes and do the standard "sudo python setup.py install" to install the library into site-package. The main thing this mechamisn does is to maintain what had been installed in site-package through it and what versions. So when newer versions of Python is installed, there can be a script to take the old site-package log, download the same set of libraries and install them for the new version of Python. Darwinports uses a very simple means to achieve this. All the description files are in a CVS repository. The actual source codes for the libraries may or may not reside in the CVS repository. Darwinports system installation is little more than checking out the entire repository of description files. When user wants to install a library, it then downloads the library's source codes and performs the standard "configure, make, make install" operations. Of course, the root user will have to do a update to update to the latest version of description files. I think something like this can be set up for Python quite easily. I recall some time back, there's a long discussion about setting up Python's version of CPAN but I can't recall the contents of the discussions. ======================================================================== Thanks and cheers Maurice -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mauriceling.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 334 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/catalog-sig/attachments/20050427/4361ce9e/mauriceling.vcf From mauriceling at acm.org Thu Apr 28 09:57:22 2005 From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice LING) Date: Thu Apr 28 09:57:47 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] bytecode non-backcompatibility In-Reply-To: <427067a2$0$27765$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de> References: <1114418065.581779.52480@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <426F2C3A.80402@v.loewis.de> <426fdea1$0$31536$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de> <427067a2$0$27765$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de> Message-ID: <42709762.9030603@acm.org> Martin v. L?wis wrote: > Maurice LING wrote: > >>I've emailed to catelog-sig mailing list and is still waiting to hear >>something. Currently, I have no idea of the structure of PyPI. I hope I >>can hear from them soon and generate some starting points... > > > Posting questions is not the only way to find answers. The source code > of PyPI is available: sf.net/projects/pypi. > > Regards, > Martin I've browsed the source codes of PyPI in sf.net, nothing pops up as very useful to me... I reckoned that sitting in here or hoping for replies from catelog-sig isn't going to help much. On that, I've prototyped a very simple proof-of-concept of what I have in mind, regarding a Fink-like tool for Python's 3rd party libraries management. Please bear in mind that this is a proof-of-concept prototype, really bare bones. It can be found in 'centipyde' module in sf.net/projects/ib-dwb. In case the CVS hadn't updated by the time someone reads this, the directory layout is this: ../centipyde ../centipyde/centipyde.py ../centipyde/pgkinfo ../centipyde/pgkinfo/ply15.info ply15.info contains the following text (pretty much modelled against Fink): package=ply15 maintainer=. dependencies=. downloadurl=http://systems.cs.uchicago.edu/ply/ply-1.5.tar.gz prebuildscript=tar zxvf ply-1.5.tar.gz sourcedir=ply-1.5 buildscript=python setup.py build installscript=sudo python setup.py install centipyde.py is the following: ===================================================== """ Author: Maurice H.T. Ling Copyright (c) 2005 Maurice H.T. Ling Date created : 28th April 2005 """ PKGINFOPATH = 'pkginfo' INSTALL_LOG = 'install.log' import os import string import sys def install_package(package_name): f = open(os.getcwd() + os.sep + PKGINFOPATH + os.sep + package_name + '.info', 'r') install_info = {} for line in f.readlines(): line = string.split(line, '=') if line[1][-1] == os.linesep: install_info[line[0]] = string.strip(line[1][:-1]) else: install_info[line[0]] = string.strip(line[1]) f.close() print "Package Installation Information: " + str(install_info) os.system('curl -O ' + str(install_info['downloadurl'])) preinstall = [] preinstall = string.split(install_info['prebuildscript'], ';') for cmd in preinstall: os.system(cmd) cwd = os.getcwd() print cwd os.chdir(os.path.join(os.getcwd(), install_info['sourcedir'])) print os.getcwd() buildscript = [] buildscript = string.split(install_info['buildscript'], ';') for cmd in buildscript: os.system(cmd) installscript = [] installscript = string.split(install_info['installscript'], ';') for cmd in installscript: os.system(cmd) if sys.argv[1] == 'install': install_package(sys.argv[2]) ===================================================== When I run "python centipyde.py install ply15", PLY1.5 gets downloaded from David Beazley's website, uncompressed and installed into the site-package. All comments and code donations are welcomed. Cheers Maurice From richardjones at optushome.com.au Fri Apr 29 11:43:32 2005 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Fri Apr 29 11:43:41 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] New PEP, pre-submission RFC Message-ID: <200504291943.32344.richardjones@optushome.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 PEP: NNN Title: Medatadata for Python Software Packages 1.2 Version: $Revision$ Last-Modified: $Date$ Author: Richard Jones Discussions-To: Distutils SIG Status: Draft Type: Standards Track Created: 28-04-2005 Python-Version: 2.5 Abstract ======== This PEP describes a mechanism for adding metadata to Python packages. It includes specifics of the field names, and their semantics and usage. This document specifies version 1.2 of the metadata format. Version 1.0 is specified in PEP 241. Version 1.1 is specified in PEP 314. Version 1.2 of the metadata format adds a number of optional fields designed to make third-party packaging of Python Software easier. These fields are "Requires-Python" and "Requires-External". Also, the "Metadata-Version" field is updated. Fields ====== This section specifies the names and semantics of each of the supported metadata fields. Fields marked with "(Multiple use)" may be specified multiple times in a single PKG-INFO file. Other fields may only occur once in a PKG-INFO file. Fields marked with "(optional)" are not required to appear in a valid PKG-INFO file; all other fields must be present. Metadata-Version Version of the file format; "1.0", "1.1" and "1.2" are the only legal values here. Example: Metadata-Version: 1.2 Name The name of the package. Example: Name: BeagleVote Version A string containing the package's version number. This field should be parseable by one of the Version classes (StrictVersion or LooseVersion) in the distutils.version module. Example: Version: 1.0a2 Platform (multiple use) A comma-separated list of platform specifications, summarizing the operating systems supported by the package which are not listed in the "Operating System" Trove classifiers. See "Classifier" below. Example: Platform: ObscureUnix, RareDOS Supported-Platform (multiple use) Binary distributions containing a PKG-INFO file will use the Supported-Platform field in their metadata to specify the OS and CPU for which the binary package was compiled. The semantics of the Supported-Platform field are not specified in this PEP. Example: Supported-Platform: RedHat 7.2 Supported-Platform: i386-win32-2791 Summary A one-line summary of what the package does. Example: Summary: A module for collecting votes from beagles. Description (optional) A longer description of the package that can run to several paragraphs. Software that deals with metadata should not assume any maximum size for this field, though people shouldn't include their instruction manual as the description. The contents of this field can be written using reStructuredText markup [1]. For programs that work with the metadata, supporting markup is optional; programs can also display the contents of the field as-is. This means that authors should be conservative in the markup they use. Example: Description: This module collects votes from beagles in order to determine their electoral wishes. Do *not* try to use this module with basset hounds; it makes them grumpy. Keywords (optional) A list of additional keywords to be used to assist searching for the package in a larger catalog. Example: Keywords: dog puppy voting election Home-page (optional) A string containing the URL for the package's home page. Example: Home-page: http://www.example.com/~cschultz/bvote/ Download-URL A string containing the URL from which this version of the package can be downloaded. (This means that the URL can't be something like ".../package-latest.tgz", but instead must be "../package-0.45.tgz".) Author (optional) A string containing the author's name at a minimum; additional contact information may be provided. Example: Author: C. Schultz, Universal Features Syndicate, Los Angeles, CA Author-email A string containing the author's e-mail address. It can contain a name and e-mail address in the legal forms for a RFC-822 'From:' header. It's not optional because cataloging systems can use the e-mail portion of this field as a unique key representing the author. A catalog might provide authors the ability to store their GPG key, personal home page, and other additional metadata *about the author*, and optionally the ability to associate several e-mail addresses with the same person. Author-related metadata fields are not covered by this PEP. Example: Author-email: "C. Schultz" License Text indicating the license covering the package where the license is not a selection from the "License" Trove classifiers. See "Classifier" below. Example: License: This software may only be obtained by sending the author a postcard, and then the user promises not to redistribute it. Classifier (multiple use) Each entry is a string giving a single classification value for the package. Classifiers are described in PEP 301 [2]. Examples: Classifier: Development Status :: 4 - Beta Classifier: Environment :: Console (Text Based) Requires (multiple use) Each entry contains a string describing some other module or package required by this package. The format of a requirement string is identical to that of a module or package name usable with the 'import' statement, optionally followed by a version declaration within parentheses. A version declaration is a series of conditional operators and version numbers, separated by commas. Conditional operators must be one of "<", ">", "<=", ">=", "==", and "!=". Version numbers must be in the format accepted by the distutils.version.StrictVersion class: two or three dot-separated numeric components, with an optional "pre-release" tag on the end consisting of the letter 'a' or 'b' followed by a number. Example version numbers are "1.0", "2.3a2", "1.3.99", Any number of conditional operators can be specified, e.g. the string ">1.0, !=1.3.4, <2.0" is a legal version declaration. All of the following are possible requirement strings: "rfc822", "zlib (>=1.1.4)", "zope". There's no canonical list of what strings should be used; the Python community is left to choose its own standards. Example: Requires: re Requires: sys Requires: zlib Requires: xml.parsers.expat (>1.0) Requires: psycopg Provides (multiple use) Each entry contains a string describing a package or module that will be provided by this package once it is installed. These strings should match the ones used in Requirements fields. A version declaration may be supplied (without a comparison operator); the package's version number will be implied if none is specified. Example: Provides: xml Provides: xml.utils Provides: xml.utils.iso8601 Provides: xml.dom Provides: xmltools (1.3) Obsoletes (multiple use) Each entry contains a string describing a package or module that this package renders obsolete, meaning that the two packages should not be installed at the same time. Version declarations can be supplied. The most common use of this field will be in case a package name changes, e.g. Gorgon 2.3 gets subsumed into Torqued Python 1.0. When you install Torqued Python, the Gorgon package should be removed. Example: Obsoletes: Gorgon Requires-Python This field specifies the Python version(s) that the package is guaranteed to be compatible with. The format of the field is a series of conditional operators and version numbers, separated by commas. Conditional operators must be one of "<", ">", "<=", ">=", "==", and "!=". Version numbers must be in the format accepted by the distutils.version.StrictVersion class: two or three dot-separated numeric components, with an optional "pre-release" tag on the end consisting of the letter 'a' or 'b' followed by a number. Example version numbers are "1.0", "2.3a2" and "1.3.99". Any number of conditional operators can be specified, e.g. the string ">1.0, !=1.3.4, <2.0" is a legal version declaration. Example: Requires-Python: >2.1 Requires-Python: >=2.3.4 XXX This field doesn't take into account possible future incompatibilities through deprecation. We could specify that the ">" operator only work for up to two releases? This is based on the typical deprecation plan that Python usually follows (warning for two releases and then error). That is, >=2.3.4 works for 2.3.4, 2.4 and 2.5. Requires-External (multiple use) Each entry contains a string describing some dependency in the system that the package is to be used. The format of a requirement string is a name of an external dependency, optionally followed by a version declaration within parentheses. A version declaration is a series of conditional operators and version numbers, separated by commas. Conditional operators must be one of "<", ">", "<=", ">=", "==", and "!=". Version numbers must be in the format accepted by the distutils.version.StrictVersion class: two or three dot-separated numeric components, with an optional "pre-release" tag on the end consisting of the letter 'a' or 'b' followed by a number. Example version numbers are "1.0", "2.3a2", "1.3.99", Any number of conditional operators can be specified, e.g. the string ">1.0, !=1.3.4, <2.0" is a legal version declaration. The canonical list of what strings are allowed is available in the `Cheese Shop`_ database. New names may be added to the database either through the web or using the command-line; Python community is left to choose its own standards. Some dependencies are anticipated to be quite broad, eg. "C", indicating a C compiler is required. Example: Requires: C Requires: libpng Copyright Indicates the party or parties, and the year of copyright covering the package. Example: Copyright: Guido van Rossum, 1991 Copyright: Python Software Foundation, 2005 Copyright: Public Domain External References Registry ============================ Stores in the Cheese Shop database a list of (name, description, URI) identifying an external reference that may be used as a value in a Requires-External field. The name and description are required, but URI is not (as there is no single useful URI for "C"). Submissions to the registry are open to the community, and may be performed through the web or using the command-line. The names in the registry will be created under a first-comes first-wins basis. Other packagers of Python software (eg. to deb, rpm, etc) should be able to translate the requires-external field to names in their own packaging system. XXX command-line interface needs work, obviously References ========== This document specifies version 1.2 of the metadata format. Version 1.0 is specified in PEP 241. Version 1.1 is specified in PEP 314. .. _`Cheese Shop`: http://cheeseshop.python.org/ Copyright ========= This document has been placed in the public domain. Acknowledgements ================ Fred Drake, Anthony Baxter and Matthias Klose have all contributed to the ideas presented in this PEP. .. Local Variables: mode: indented-text indent-tabs-mode: nil sentence-end-double-space: t fill-column: 70 End: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCcgHErGisBEHG6TARAq52AJ9U4q3XW9JHgjY5zvzFAVq3fLDPsgCeMKLy qxTE21KBOWklqDmw7DoecZ4= =vMpc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From richardjones at optushome.com.au Fri Apr 29 11:52:10 2005 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Fri Apr 29 11:52:17 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Package maintenance mechanism for Python In-Reply-To: <426EC1FD.6030405@acm.org> References: <426EC1FD.6030405@acm.org> Message-ID: <200504291952.10625.richardjones@optushome.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:34 am, Maurice Ling wrote: > PyPI has a module upload mechanism. But is there a module download > mechanism. Not yet. You are welcome to write it. > By that, I meant a mechanism which system admins can use to > download and install a module (library) This, as you already note, is trivial. Python's built-in urllib and xmlrpclib make it so. > and keep track of what is > installed into site-package directory through this mechanism? PEP 262 is an attempt to address this: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0262.html A large amount of discussion exists around whether Python *should* have such a database, or whether we should leave such things up to the Operating System packaging mechanisms (rpm, deb, etc.) I fall in the latter category at the moment. > The problem I see is that maintaining 3rd party libraries in > site-package is a task for system admins or developers, especially when > new versions of Python is installed (say from Python 2.3 to Python 2.4). The Ubuntu people have ideas about addressing this for pure-python packages, but they include massive amounts of symlinks, and just not bothering with trying to address cross-version issues when they hit a non-pure-python package (ie. one that has a C extension). I think. It's all still a bit vague :) > All of the libraries (esp those with C modules) needs to be recompiled. > Is there a mechanism for the programmers to find out what is installed > in say, Python2.3's site-packages and download the same modules from > PyPI and install them in Python2.4's site-packages? I believe PEP 246 is intended to have this kind of information. Feel free to read and flesh it out. And implement it. Richard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCcgPKrGisBEHG6TARArtCAJ0WDFvJ7vZviKrx0VAJsU+2p9MRmgCeMv8N Gjcpk6OA4tuqUQmAAJzuPjw= =zir+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gh at ghaering.de Fri Apr 29 11:59:33 2005 From: gh at ghaering.de (Gerhard Haering) Date: Fri Apr 29 12:00:20 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] New PEP, pre-submission RFC In-Reply-To: <200504291943.32344.richardjones@optushome.com.au> References: <200504291943.32344.richardjones@optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <20050429095933.GA25977@mylene.ghaering.de> I like this a lot, and I think it has just the right balance of how much it defines and how much it leaves open. Only one remark: On Fri, Apr 29, 2005 at 07:43:32PM +1000, Richard Jones wrote: > [...] > Author (optional) > > A string containing the author's name at a minimum; additional > contact information may be provided. > > Example: > > Author: C. Schultz, Universal Features Syndicate, > Los Angeles, CA For those who have names with characters not in ASCII, is that possible? do we just define that all text is UTF-8? Not that I really need it, but would this be the right time to think about optional description fields for other languages, too, like Description-fr, Description-de for French and German ones? -- Gerhard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/catalog-sig/attachments/20050429/e26bd04f/attachment.pgp From fdrake at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 15:54:57 2005 From: fdrake at gmail.com (Fred Drake) Date: Fri Apr 29 15:55:00 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] New PEP, pre-submission RFC In-Reply-To: <20050429095933.GA25977@mylene.ghaering.de> References: <200504291943.32344.richardjones@optushome.com.au> <20050429095933.GA25977@mylene.ghaering.de> Message-ID: <9cee7ab80504290654138901dd@mail.gmail.com> On 4/29/05, Gerhard Haering wrote: > For those who have names with characters not in ASCII, is that possible? > do we just define that all text is UTF-8? Does anything other than ASCII work (reliably) now? If not, I'm all for declaring the serialized metadata to be UTF-8, and let distutils check that when serializing (encoding Unicode as needed). > Not that I really need it, but would this be the right time to think > about optional description fields for other languages, too, like > > Description-fr, Description-de for French and German ones? The *.desktop files used by GNOME and KDE use an INI-style syntax with the language code in brackets; modifying that for the RFC-2822 style headers would be something like this: Description[fr]: French description here. Description[de]: German here. I've no reason to think this is better, but it may be familiar to some, which is better than inventing syntax whole-hog. I'll note that the format generally has just one section, and the first entry in the ones I just took a look at all said Encoding=UTF-8. Maybe it's a good idea to provide a way for the encoding to be specified in the file, and require that apps be able to deal with UTF-8 in whatever way is appropriate to them. In many cases, copying the bytes is the most that's needed, so that keeps things simple anyway. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. Zope Corporation From clayton.brown at digitalrum.com Fri Apr 29 17:36:48 2005 From: clayton.brown at digitalrum.com (Clayton Brown) Date: Fri Apr 29 17:36:51 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Package maintenance mechanism for Python Message-ID: My 2 cents since I've been quietly watching this thread and some others related to this..... ---- In a nutshell: does Pypi intend to distribute versioned platform specific modules/eggs, will core python 1.5 syntax extend to allow auto download/installation & varying depth version requirement specification for imports will ppm/cpan like service be established to satisfy python dependancies on a given platform ---- Now the affle: Surely with PyPI, CP(ython)AN, PythonArchives, PyVault, Temple of Star Trek............ Whatever.............you get what in talking about PyPI for now. Personally: CPAN + 100, PyCatalogue + 50, eggcrate perhaps pending further reading on eggs, religious/political/klingon/star-trek-punns - 500 Python being able to determine and resolve its dependencies at import/runtime as well as have fine grained control over versions (and lazy loading) with a global flag to prevent automatic resolution (download/installation) for security purposes (exit raising an error instead) I feel would be a the greatest leap forward for it's usability and deployability and plans to take over the world, all python enthusiasts are well aware that its syntax and power are not its problem with use, but for satisfying dependencies Perls PPM has us over a barrel, call PyPI CPAN flatter them for what its worth, we know they did it first and they did it well, their syntax is still crap or we'd be using it. Certainly PyPI is on the right track of at least aggregating the efforts of the python community into a centralised archive but before it can be entirely useful, the way these modules are searched/distributed is the most important feature of the archive IMHO. I have not read up on the PyPI functionality other than uploading/distutils references I have seen in threads, as no real doc's are linked from http://python.org/pypi for functionality beyond this. Some documentation refering to eggs/modules versioning/platform etc on PyPi wouldn't go astray. A while ago, out of frustration of working on several machines and keeping their site-packages in sync, I wrote (adapted from some wxSomething or another) a bootstrap loader to allow me to both import exact/approx/latest(default) versions of archived/versioned modules as well as specify python interpreter requirements at run time within my code. This had a hidden benefit of allowing my scripts to quietly upgrade both interpreter and module versions to later modules as I installed/versioned them and as version incompatibilities arose I could either set them at that version or perform upgrades. I now keep one versioned site-packages under revision control and use a '.pth' file to add this to each of my python installations. Side thought: Static analysis of my code would be able to yield a complete dependency list for a build/packaging and distribution but this was beyond the scope of my needs. I personally don't think __init__.py's import perversions are a solution. More a band aid until the core python syntax can accommodate such versioning functionality. The loader is in ASPN: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/285215 My intention now that im migrating towards python2.4 with most of my code and have zipimports/eggs available is to zip all my versioned imports as a deployable unit and re-test this loader(I guess this is what eggs are as I saw a reference to them been quite like jars - I haven't really read up on yet them... Oh well ill get onto this in time at least before making afore mentioned adjustments), the crux is this allows me to keep one repository of site-packages allowing access to multiple concurrent versions of modules at any one time, and rsync deploy my entire site-packages to new machines to satisfy dependencies. An obvious stumbling block I came across with this is the ability to store non-pure-python versioned modules along with built system binaries that they wrap for multiple platforms etc, for the most parts I just placed the shared objects/dll's etc within the modules local path and whala presto it worked great (perhaps eggs cater for this problem), the only problems beyond here was knowing how to generate a text string which would uniquely identify a platform (now I've seen reference to this in PEP-243 "---" is this definitive and can this string be produced by a import? and are these the only items which would affect built binaries compatibility (os/gcc/kernel/etc/etc) ?) I imagine for PyPI to archive non pure-python modules it must deal with these exact issues in the cataloguing process, id be glad if someone could point me to somewhere definitive on this topic of packaging Im guessing ill get a distutils link, hmmm distutils 101 probably. I think if a CPAN like service evolves for python we need to address the issue of python syntax for both specifying loose/strict version requirements both for the interpreter and the imports as I have, and ensuring this dependency is met allowing it additionally to satisfy this (by retrieving / installing) via a CPAN like service (ok perhaps having a global flag to prevent this by default for security) The idea I have is for a CP(ython)AN PPM service to be invoked automatically at run time to search/attain/install when an import from the local (versioned) site-packages fails. Perhaps this could be handled by an actual module itself which one would import to ensure site-packages are sorted all auto auto during execution of the script. from pypi import autoinstaller import foo version = '1.2.3' #autoinstaller catches import fail, retrieves module, installs, re-runs-import, resumes......game on. Then integrate pypi within the core site-packages, along with extending the import syntax/mechanism to allow specification of version. import foo version 1.1.1.1.etc.etc.etc..... This would allow varying accuracy as to imports so version 1.1 would load 1.1.5 / 1.1.6 / 1.1.7 as they became available whereas 1.1.5 would be fixed at 1.1.5 We could add other helper methods to pypi for installing packages etc import pypi avail_modules = pypi.search("foomodule","1.2.3") == or == setup.py ---------- import pypi pypi.install("foomodule","1.2.3",autoresolveModulesDependancies=True) print "Game on!" ----------- pypi.pruneLocalCatalogue(last_imported_datetimestamp < now-1year) #import mechanism touch file to show module usage perhaps > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Jones [mailto:richardjones@optushome.com.au] > Sent: 29 April 2005 10:52 > To: catalog-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Catalog-sig] Package maintenance mechanism for Python > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:34 am, Maurice Ling wrote: > > PyPI has a module upload mechanism. But is there a module download > > mechanism. > > Not yet. You are welcome to write it. > > > > By that, I meant a mechanism which system admins can use to > > download and install a module (library) > > This, as you already note, is trivial. Python's built-in > urllib and xmlrpclib > make it so. > > > > and keep track of what is > > installed into site-package directory through this mechanism? > > PEP 262 is an attempt to address this: > > http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0262.html > > A large amount of discussion exists around whether Python > *should* have such a > database, or whether we should leave such things up to the > Operating System > packaging mechanisms (rpm, deb, etc.) I fall in the latter > category at the > moment. > > > > The problem I see is that maintaining 3rd party libraries in > > site-package is a task for system admins or developers, especially > > when new versions of Python is installed (say from Python 2.3 to > > Python 2.4). > > The Ubuntu people have ideas about addressing this for > pure-python packages, > but they include massive amounts of symlinks, and just not > bothering with > trying to address cross-version issues when they hit a > non-pure-python > package (ie. one that has a C extension). I think. It's all > still a bit > vague :) > > > > All of the libraries (esp those with C modules) needs to be > > recompiled. Is there a mechanism for the programmers to > find out what > > is installed in say, Python2.3's site-packages and download > the same > > modules from PyPI and install them in Python2.4's site-packages? > > I believe PEP 246 is intended to have this kind of > information. Feel free to > read and flesh it out. And implement it. > > > Richard > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFCcgPKrGisBEHG6TARArtCAJ0WDFvJ7vZviKrx0VAJsU+2p9MRmgCeMv8N > Gjcpk6OA4tuqUQmAAJzuPjw= > =zir+ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Catalog-sig mailing list > Catalog-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/catalog-sig > From ktenney at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 17:52:26 2005 From: ktenney at gmail.com (Kent Tenney) Date: Fri Apr 29 17:52:29 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Package maintenance mechanism for Python In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm just an interested lurker, pardon me if I'm way off base ... Bram Moolenaar's AAP http://www.a-a-p.org/index.html has always struck me as a lot of good work on a set of tools which seem well suited the task at hand here. Thanks, Kent From mauriceling at acm.org Sat Apr 30 06:56:56 2005 From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice LING) Date: Sat Apr 30 06:57:42 2005 Subject: [Catalog-sig] "implementation" of PEP 262 as an academic project In-Reply-To: <4272CE91.5080908@acm.org> References: <1114735502.510591.6360@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <42719DFF.5080504@acm.org> <1114781419.288939.30840@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <4272CE91.5080908@acm.org> Message-ID: <42731018.5060700@acm.org> Hi all, I reckoned that if I'm on this work, I might as well make it into an academic engineering-type project for my pass degree. Hence, I am sending this posting out to everyone to inform of my intentions. Despite the possible interests in this work, academic requires a 'personal' project with defined work. Of course, I do hope that comments and suggestions continue to flow like milk and honey. If in event I do decide against making it into an academic project or when it had cease to be academically-focused (i.e. submitted and passed my thesis), I will have the onus to inform everyone again through comp.lang.python (python-list) and catalog-sig mailing list. Thank you everyone for your kind understanding. Cheers Maurice > Hi, > > I've just read PEP 262 last night and finds that it does more or less > describes what I have in mind. However, I am not sure if there is every > need for such a descriptive database file or something slimmer, like > Fink's .info files will suffice. > > An example of Fink's .info file is: > ==================================================== > Package: g77 > Version: 3.4.1 > Revision: 1 > BuildDependsOnly: true > Source: mirror:gnu:gcc/gcc-%v/gcc-%v.tar.bz2 > Source-MD5: 31b459062499f9f68d451db9cbf3205c > NoSourceDirectory: True > ConfigureParams: --enable-languages=f77 --infodir='${prefix}/share/info' > --libexecdir='${prefix}/lib' --disable-shared > #BuildDepends: dejagnu > PatchScript: << > #!/bin/sh > cd gcc-%v/gcc > mv Makefile.in Makefile.in.orig > sed 's|$(ALL_CPPFLAGS) $(INCLUDES)|$(INCLUDES) $(ALL_CPPFLAGS)|g' < > Makefile.in.orig > Makefile.in > << > CompileScript: << > #!/bin/sh > mkdir darwin > cd darwin > ../gcc-%v/configure %c > make CFLAGS='-O' LIBCFLAGS='-g -O2' LIBCXXFLAGS='-g -O2 > -fno-implicit-templates' profiledbootstrap > #cd gcc; make check-g77 > << > InstallScript: << > #!/bin/sh > cd darwin > make install prefix=%i > cd %i/bin > /bin/rm -f gcc gccbug cpp gcov powerpc-apple* > ln -s %p/bin/g77 f77 > darwinvers=`/usr/bin/uname -v | cut -f1 -d":" | awk '{print $4}'` > gccvers=`%i/bin/g77 -dumpversion | head -1 | cut -f4 -d" "` > ln -s > %p/lib/gcc/powerpc-apple-darwin${darwinvers}/${gccvers}/include/g2c.h > %i/include/g2c.h > /bin/rm -rf %i/share/locale %i/man > /bin/rm -f %i/lib/charset.alias > /bin/rm -f %i/share/info/gcc* %i/share/info/cpp* > /bin/mv -f %i/lib/libiberty.a %i/lib/libiberty-g77.a > << > License: GPL > DocFiles: gcc-%v/gcc/f/ChangeLog gcc-%v/COPYING gcc-%v/COPYING.LIB > Description: GNU Fortran compiler > DescDetail: << > g77 consists of several components: > > 1) The g77 command itself. > 2) The libg2c run-time library. This library contains the > machine code needed to support capabilities of the Fortran > language that are not directly provided by the machine code > generated by the g77 compilation phase. > 3) The compiler itself, internally named f771. > f771 does not generate machine code directly -- > it generates assembly code, leaving the conversion to > actual machine code to an assembler, usually named as. > > g77 supports some fortran90 features, like automatic arrays, > free source form, and DO WHILE. > << > DescPort: << > Installs g77 from the FSF gcc distribution. > > This version does not install in /usr. It contains it's own cc1 and > libgcc.a installed in %p. > > libiberty.a moved to libiberty-g77.a to avoid conflict with ddd. > << > DescUsage: << > If you get unresolved symbol '_saveFP', add -lcc_dynamic when linking. > > Does not support -framework argument, to link frameworks use -Wl flag > (for example, to link vecLib use "-Wl,-framework -Wl,vecLib"). > > No man page, use "info g77". > << > Homepage: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77/ > Maintainer: Jeffrey Whitaker > ================================================================================ > > > Implementing the API specified in PEP 262 is desirable. > > What I am thinking is this, > > 1. when user specify a package to install, the package's .info file will > be looked up in 'pkginfo' directory (in PEP 262, it is the INSTALLDB > directory that holds all these .info files). > > 2. to the system, only 3 things are crucial: where to get the package? > what packages the package needs? how to install? These 3 things are the > real critical parts of .info file, the rest are information and metadata. > > 3. from the dependencies, the system now creates a tree of dependencies. > Can all dependencies be satisfied, i.e. are there any required packages > that are not in standard library and there is no .info file for? > > 4. dependencies are satisfied (install the packages) from terminal leaf > nodes on the dependency tree to the root node (which is the one the user > wants to install) > > 5. appropriate entries are made in appropriate files (i.e. > pkg-install.log) to signify which packages are installed. > > 6. satisfy the files needed for API requirements of PEP 262. > > Please tell me what you think... > > > Cheers > Maurice