From grayarea at reddagger.org  Thu Jan  4 00:00:17 2007
From: grayarea at reddagger.org (jwithers)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:00:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Plone 3.0 talk at 7 monday in SF
Message-ID: <1167865217.29573.138.camel@localhost>

Folks,

For those of you who are interested in the Plone CMS, one of the
project's co-founders, Alexander Limi, will be speaking about the
upcoming 3.0 version of the software at the monthly SFBay PloneLounge
meeting.

7-9pm Monday, 8 Jan 07
Burning Man Offices, 1900 3rd St., SF CA.

Hope to see you there.

-- 
jwithers <grayarea at reddagger.org>


From lavendula6654 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  4 01:07:52 2007
From: lavendula6654 at yahoo.com (Elaine)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:07:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python class at Foothill College
Message-ID: <377578.5567.qm@web31714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If you would like to learn Python, Foothill College is
offering a course starting Wed. evening, 10 January,
at the Middlefield campus on the corner of San Antonio
and Middlefield Road in south Palo Alto. The course is
designed for students who are already familiar with
some type of programming. Here is the course
description:

CIS 68K  "INTRODUCTION TO PYTHON PROGRAMMING"  5 Units
This course will introduce students to the Python
language and environment. Python is a portable,
interpreted, object-oriented programming language that
is often compared to Perl, Java, Scheme and Tcl. The
language has an elegant syntax, dynamic typing, and a
small number of powerful, high-level data types. It
also has modules, classes, and exceptions. Meets
Wednesday evenings, 6:00 - 9:40, 10 January - 28
March.

If you would like to sign up for the class, please
register beforehand by going to:
http://www.foothill.fhda.edu/reg/index.php

If you have questions, you can contact the instructor
at:
haightElaine at foothill.edu


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Thu Jan  4 19:14:56 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:14:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python for Programmers Course
Message-ID: <20070104181459.D4D381E400B@bag.python.org>

Happy New Year, Python enthusiasts!

UCSC Extension is offering a Python course, 10 Wednesday nights in Sunnyvale, starting Jan 17.

http://ucsc-extension.edu/ucsc/public/category/courseDetails.do?method=load&courseId=1531625&selectedCategoryId=1000075&selectedProgramAreaId=&selectedProgramStreamId=

It is a lab-based, fast-moving, comprehensive course, intended for people who already know how to program in some other language.

The instructor/Python-evangelist is ... me.

Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.
http://www.deliberate.com/marilyn









From lhawthorn at google.com  Thu Jan  4 20:41:14 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 11:41:14 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Taping Update
Message-ID: <4869cee70701041141n75b2c769y94900bae20ddeb86@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

- Russ Paielli, the Baypiggies speaker for November, requested that his
presentation not be taped, hence it is not on Google Video.

- JJ's talk from December should be up on Google Video shortly and I will
send out the link when it's available.

- Arrangements have been made to tape Donna Snow's talk on January 11th.

Cheers,
LH


-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070104/15e942dc/attachment.html 

From DennisR at dair.com  Mon Jan  8 01:34:49 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 16:34:49 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Our meeting Jan. 11 ... and Feb. 8
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070107162518.00be9a60@localhost>

For our meeting Jan. 11, Donna Snow will re-visit and update her Plone 
presentation.  Jan. 11 is the final meeting I have planned.  Jim Stockford 
has agreed to arrange some future meetings.  Feb. 8 follows in 4 weeks.  If 
you are interested in organizing BayPiggies meetings, I am sure Jim would 
appreciate hearing from potential collaborators and speakers.

Following is the abstract Donna prepared for Jan. 11:

Title: Why Plone? Features and benefits of the PloneCMS
Abstract: Plone is an Open Source content management system built on Zope 
(and Python) that has grown in popularity and strength over the last couple 
of years.
Along with the excellent security benefits of the Zope Web Server, Plone 
offers users the ability to manage their content and build a strong 
community based
website out-of-the-box. Planned topics include

    * Overview of Plone's core features
    * Case Studies (sites implemented with Plone and why Plone was used)
    * Tour of Plone Interface
          o adding new content
          o wysiwyg editor
          o publishing feature
          o working with portlets
          o smart folders
          o setting up groups and user permissions
    * Installing new products
    * Skinning (theming)
    * Workflow & Security
    * Search functionality
    * Documentation (getting help)
    * Q&A session

(this session will include introduction of the Baypiggies.net Plone site 
that is in progress)

Companies that use Plone for content management include NASA, Oxfam, eBay, 
Trolltech, Nokia, Utah State University, Creative Commons and Wolford.

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Tue Jan  9 00:06:42 2007
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 15:06:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Thursday, Jan 11, 6 pm
Message-ID: <5538c19b0701081506r14053b43gfe430212a752d241@mail.gmail.com>

For Thursday, January 11, I can coordinate a pre-meeting
dinner in Mountain View, before the BayPIGgies meeting
at Google .

Restaurant RVSPs may be sent to my email until
Thursday afternoon (earlier is better). We eat family-style,
there are vegetarian and non-vegetarian dishes.  Cost around
$10 per person, including tax and tip. Bring cash, please.

Start dinner at 6pm and I will keep things moving so that we
finish and get everyone headed towards Google to
complete sign-in before the 7:30 meeting start.

The restaurant is Cafe Yulong in downtown Mountain View
(650) 960-1677
743 W Dana Street, 1/2 block from Castro where
Books, Inc is on the corner.
Parking lots all around, but downtown Mountain View
parking is still difficult.

It is a slightly out of the ordinary Chinese
restaurant.  This link has a downtown map and
additional information.
http://www.mountainviewca.net/restaurants/cafeyulong.html

I've made reservations under "Python" for 6pm
Thursday.

If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me
by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I may confirm
the headcount.

From ken at seehart.com  Wed Jan 10 00:24:27 2007
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:24:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070107162518.00be9a60@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070107162518.00be9a60@localhost>
Message-ID: <45A4242B.5000005@seehart.com>


Internet Chess Club (www.chessclub.com) is looking for an experienced 
python programmer.

This will be new product development, so you have an opportunity to 
write beautiful fresh python code :-) 

If you are interested, please see me at BayPiggies (I will make an 
announcement at the end), or contact me:
Ken Seehart (831)479-7684 ken at seehart.com

Requirements:

    Two or more years of Python
    GUI development, especially wxPython
    Know how to play chess
    At least three items from below...

Strongly preferred:

    Internationalization and Localization

Preferred:

    HTML, network protocols
    Non blocking I/O and related skills (e.g. Twisted, threads, 
generators, etc.)
    Audio/video streaming
    Regular expressions
    Some C++, especially python extensions
    Play chess online

Extra credit:

    Read/write some Chinese and/or Spanish
    Graphics skills (e.g. Photoshop)
    Live near Santa Cruz area (although it is a telecommuting position)

Code samples are required.

- Ken



From lhawthorn at google.com  Wed Jan 10 01:38:13 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 16:38:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki
Message-ID: <4869cee70701091638j573d593foc099c8a2ee0012b5@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

If you will be attending the Baypiggies meeting this Thursday, January 11th,
please don't forget to register on the wiki by 5 PM tomorrow, 1/10:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings

Cheers,
LH

-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070109/1caf02d5/attachment.htm 

From alvinwang at gmail.com  Wed Jan 10 02:12:14 2007
From: alvinwang at gmail.com (Alvin Wang)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:12:14 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pycon 2008
Message-ID: <77d044440701091712l33f16c97gc46ea8e6897e4ab6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
Is there any interest in holding the 2008 Pycon in the Bay Area?

I was chatting with a lady from the San Mateo Tourism and Convention
bureau.  She is willing to do the ground work on getting a hotel.

Would BayPiggies be interested in being the host organization or being part
of the hosting organization?  I have experience organizing conventions.  I
think we could put on some really good seminars.  It would also help us
boost Python's visibility in the Bay Area.

-- 
Alvin Wang
C 650 248 9416
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070109/462a12b1/attachment.html 

From DennisR at dair.com  Wed Jan 10 02:51:30 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:51:30 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pycon 2008
In-Reply-To: <77d044440701091712l33f16c97gc46ea8e6897e4ab6@mail.gmail.co
 m>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070109174633.00be7a30@localhost>

At 05:12 PM 1/9/2007, Alvin Wang wrote:
>Would BayPiggies be interested in being the host organization

BayPiggies is not an organization and cannot assume legal liability or 
insure anything.  At some point, when a facilities contract needs to be 
signed, there is no legal entity which can sign.

BayPiggies needs to have

         a) a legal structure,
         b) volunteer(s) who will accept personal liability or
         c) sponsor(s) who will sign contracts

Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From guido at python.org  Wed Jan 10 03:02:17 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 18:02:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pycon 2008
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070109174633.00be7a30@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070109174633.00be7a30@localhost>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20701091802h7cbf4c8ei180b1fefd32305cc@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 05:12 PM 1/9/2007, Alvin Wang wrote:
> >Would BayPiggies be interested in being the host organization
>
> BayPiggies is not an organization and cannot assume legal liability or
> insure anything.  At some point, when a facilities contract needs to be
> signed, there is no legal entity which can sign.
>
> BayPiggies needs to have
>
>          a) a legal structure,
>          b) volunteer(s) who will accept personal liability or
>          c) sponsor(s) who will sign contracts

No, the PSF takes care of all the legal liability, as it has done for
all past PyCons.

The only thing you need is one or more volunteers with local
connections willing to put in time.

The PSF will sign the papers, has an existing insurance contract, and
has enough money in the bank to take the financial risk (of course
this also means the PSF board needs to approve the budget).

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From jim at well.com  Wed Jan 10 09:51:33 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:51:33 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Our meeting Jan. 11 ... and Feb. 8
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070107162518.00be9a60@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070107162518.00be9a60@localhost>
Message-ID: <7972af821ec9ae71ebcd726561818bae@well.com>


On Jan 7, 2007, at 4:34 PM, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:

> ...If
> you are interested in organizing BayPiggies meetings, I am sure Jim 
> would
> appreciate hearing from potential collaborators and speakers.

yes, yes, please.
jim


From whitaker at google.com  Wed Jan 10 09:59:02 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:59:02 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Our meeting Jan. 11 ... and Feb. 8
In-Reply-To: <7972af821ec9ae71ebcd726561818bae@well.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070107162518.00be9a60@localhost>
	<7972af821ec9ae71ebcd726561818bae@well.com>
Message-ID: <997a56990701100059s3ace18c8u4fc98c8e8c301025@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/10/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
> On Jan 7, 2007, at 4:34 PM, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>
> > ...If
> > you are interested in organizing BayPiggies meetings, I am sure Jim
> > would
> > appreciate hearing from potential collaborators and speakers.
>
> yes, yes, please.
> jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

I'm hoping I can persuade Brett Cannon to speak on the subject of a
"capabilities-secure variant of Python" (which some of know
provisionally as "Pyth-E") at one of our monthly meetings...

Russell

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Systems Operations Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt. View, California

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jan 10 16:43:35 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:43:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [ADMIN] FWD: Cross-posted mailing lists
Message-ID: <20070110154335.GB27437@panix.com>

The following message was held for moderation due to too many cc's.
Generally speaking, most mailing lists these days prohibit posting by
non-subscribers and it's a Bad Idea to cross-post to lists that people
can't reply to.  I didn't realize that the cc's were because of
cross-posting or I would have rejected this message.  In the future, I'll
check more carefully.

----- Forwarded message from Russell Whitaker <whitaker at google.com> -----

> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:59:02 -0800
> From: Russell Whitaker <whitaker at google.com>
> To: jim stockford <jim at well.com>
> Cc: "General discussions concerning capability systems." <cap-talk at mail.eros-os.org>,
> 	baypiggies at python.org, danfuzz at google.com,
> 	Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com>, brett at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Our meeting Jan. 11 ... and Feb. 8

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose."

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Wed Jan 10 17:52:58 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 08:52:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [ADMIN] FWD: Cross-posted mailing lists
Message-ID: <20070110165301.AB19A1E400A@bag.python.org>

I don't think you should reject or stall on any email that Russell, Jim or Dennis wants to send us.  Also, please let anyone from Google or Python.org send us anything -- no matter how many others they send to.

Marilyn Davis

----- On Wednesday, January 10, 2007 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote:

> The following message was held for moderation due to too many cc's.
> Generally speaking, most mailing lists these days prohibit posting by
> non-subscribers and it's a Bad Idea to cross-post to lists that people
> can't reply to.  I didn't realize that the cc's were because of
> cross-posting or I would have rejected this message.  In the future, I'll
> check more carefully.
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from Russell Whitaker  -----
> 
>> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:59:02 -0800
>> From: Russell Whitaker
>> To: jim stockford
>> Cc: "General discussions concerning capability systems."
> ,
>>         baypiggies at python.org, danfuzz at google.com,
>>         Dennis Reinhardt , brett at python.org
>> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Our meeting Jan. 11 ... and Feb. 8
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)                    http://www.pythoncraft.com/
> 
> "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose."
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From whitaker at google.com  Wed Jan 10 22:11:12 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:11:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>

So, the listowner has made the decision that cross-posting to other lists
is not permitted then?

Look, I'm trying to get something going that involves both the capabilities
security community and the Python community.  This is related to a specific
attempt to assist both.  This rejection seems a bit hidebound and unnecessary
to me.

Russell

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org <baypiggies-bounces at python.org>
Date: Jan 10, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
To: whitaker at google.com


Your request to the Baypiggies mailing list

    Posting of your message titled "Re: [Baypiggies] Our meeting Jan.
11 ... and Feb. 8"

has been rejected by the list moderator.  The moderator gave the
following reason for rejecting your request:

"Please trim the recipient list; it is too long.

...and cross-posts to other mailing lists are not permmitted."

Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator
at:

    baypiggies-owner at python.org


-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Wed Jan 10 22:15:00 2007
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:15:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45A55754.2040200@mvista.com>

i think any relevant thread should be posted, regardless.  If the thread 
is relevant to this board, cross-posting or not, it should be posted here.

-carl

Russell Whitaker wrote:
> So, the listowner has made the decision that cross-posting to other lists
> is not permitted then?
>
> Look, I'm trying to get something going that involves both the capabilities
> security community and the Python community.  This is related to a specific
> attempt to assist both.  This rejection seems a bit hidebound and unnecessary
> to me.
>
> Russell
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org <baypiggies-bounces at python.org>
> Date: Jan 10, 2007 1:06 PM
> Subject: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
> To: whitaker at google.com
>
>
> Your request to the Baypiggies mailing list
>
>     Posting of your message titled "Re: [Baypiggies] Our meeting Jan.
> 11 ... and Feb. 8"
>
> has been rejected by the list moderator.  The moderator gave the
> following reason for rejecting your request:
>
> "Please trim the recipient list; it is too long.
>
> ...and cross-posts to other mailing lists are not permmitted."
>
> Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator
> at:
>
>     baypiggies-owner at python.org
>
>
>   


-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jan 10 22:23:12 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:23:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007, Russell Whitaker wrote:
>
> So, the listowner has made the decision that cross-posting to other
> lists is not permitted then?
>
> Look, I'm trying to get something going that involves both the
> capabilities security community and the Python community.  This is
> related to a specific attempt to assist both.  This rejection seems a
> bit hidebound and unnecessary to me.

The problem -- as I already said -- is that cross-posting between mailing
lists means that the people who reply to your messages will get caught by
the requirement to be a list subscriber in order for their messages to be
seen.  (This requirement courtesy of spam.)  It just doesn't work unless
a large proportion of people are already on both mailing lists -- and
even then it can be irritating as people get multiple copies of messages.

There are two reasonably good ways to handle this:

* If the topic is particularly relevant to one mailing list, send an
invitation to the other mailing list(s) inviting them to subscribe

* If the topic doesn't have a good home, create a new mailing list and
invite everyone to join
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose."

From whitaker at google.com  Wed Jan 10 22:27:40 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:27:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>
Message-ID: <997a56990701101327s47d454f5tab50603480bbe4b5@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/10/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2007, Russell Whitaker wrote:
> >
> > So, the listowner has made the decision that cross-posting to other
> > lists is not permitted then?
> >
> > Look, I'm trying to get something going that involves both the
> > capabilities security community and the Python community.  This is
> > related to a specific attempt to assist both.  This rejection seems a
> > bit hidebound and unnecessary to me.
>
> The problem -- as I already said -- is that cross-posting between mailing
> lists means that the people who reply to your messages will get caught by
> the requirement to be a list subscriber in order for their messages to be
> seen.  (This requirement courtesy of spam.)  It just doesn't work unless
> a large proportion of people are already on both mailing lists -- and
> even then it can be irritating as people get multiple copies of messages.
>
> There are two reasonably good ways to handle this:
>
> * If the topic is particularly relevant to one mailing list, send an
> invitation to the other mailing list(s) inviting them to subscribe
>

This is unnecessary and cumbersome.

> * If the topic doesn't have a good home, create a new mailing list and
> invite everyone to join

In this case, also unnecessary and cumbersome.

OK, if this is the case, then I'm going to scale back my efforts on the part
of BayPIGgies, and put my efforts elsewhere with less overhead.  Thanks
for validating my impressions.

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Wed Jan 10 22:49:21 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:49:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
Message-ID: <20070110214924.978CD1E400A@bag.python.org>


----- On Wednesday, January 10, 2007 whitaker at google.com wrote:

> On 1/10/07, Aahz  wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2007, Russell Whitaker wrote:
>> >
>> > So, the listowner has made the decision that cross-posting to other
>> > lists is not permitted then?
>> >
>> > Look, I'm trying to get something going that involves both the
>> > capabilities security community and the Python community.  This is
>> > related to a specific attempt to assist both.  This rejection seems a
>> > bit hidebound and unnecessary to me.
>>
>> The problem -- as I already said -- is that cross-posting between mailing
>> lists means that the people who reply to your messages will get caught by
>> the requirement to be a list subscriber in order for their messages to be
>> seen.  (This requirement courtesy of spam.) 

That's the problem of the participants, not the moderator.

 It just doesn't work unless
>> a large proportion of people are already on both mailing lists -- and
>> even then it can be irritating as people get multiple copies of messages.
>>
>> There are two reasonably good ways to handle this:
>>
>> * If the topic is particularly relevant to one mailing list, send an
>> invitation to the other mailing list(s) inviting them to subscribe
>>
> 
> This is unnecessary and cumbersome.
> 
>> * If the topic doesn't have a good home, create a new mailing list and
>> invite everyone to join
> 
> In this case, also unnecessary and cumbersome.
> 
> OK, if this is the case, then I'm going to scale back my efforts on the part
> of BayPIGgies, and put my efforts elsewhere with less overhead.  Thanks
> for validating my impressions.

Aahz has no right to do this to us.  Is there any way we can get the power away from him?  From previous exchanges, he will not give up ownership of our list willingly, apparently.  JJ is willing to be our list-owner.

If we cannot get the ownership of the mailing list away from Aahz, we need to start a new group.

Marilyn

p.s.  I'm away and only checking email sporatically.
> 
> --
> Russell Whitaker
> Sysops Tools Team Lead
> Google Inc., Mt View, CA
> "gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
> overruns." - Bill Frantz
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Wed Jan 10 22:58:52 2007
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:58:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0701101328580.11821@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Russell Whitaker wrote:

> So, the listowner has made the decision that cross-posting to other lists
> is not permitted then?

[meta: not really Python related]


Hi Russell,

But this isn't anything too new on any particular mailing list: 
discouraging crossposting is typical -- in fact, expected! --- on almost 
all mailing lists.  Please see:

     http://www.gweep.ca/~edmonds/usenet/ml-etiquette.html

You may not think this causes a problem for you, but crosstalk between two 
mailing lists does cause a lot of headache for the list admin and the 
members on both lists.


Let me explicitely testify what often happens with crossposting: if a 
crossposted conversation does pick up, then people on different mailing 
lists will have incomplete knowledge about the thread since they are not 
subscribed to both lists.  Furthermore, because of the spam guards, the 
admin then has to go in and continuously moderate the thread.  A lot of 
duplication happens on both lists, and no one is really happy.

This has happened in the past with python-help and python-tutor, and I can 
testify that crossposting really doesn't help improve discussion: it often 
had the opposite effect in my experience.  So the taboo on crossposting 
have good reasons behind it.  If you want a substantial conversation, pick 
one venue and go with it: you'll have a most cohesive conversation that 
way.



Also, I think you're taking this all too personally.  Please note that the 
message that you got:

> "Please trim the recipient list; it is too long.

is a default message that comes preinstalled with the Mailman mailing list 
manager software.  If its tone sounds curt and mean, please understand 
that it's pretty mechanical too.  We're not personally rejecting your 
efforts: we're just rejecting the counterproductive act of crossposting.


I know nothing about capability security systems, but it might be best to 
bring it up on the main comp.lang.python newsgroup if you truly want to 
reach a large audience.  The problem there is that there is the 
possibility of getting drowned out by all the other threads going on 
there.  Ah well.

Anyway, good luck to you!

From ken at seehart.com  Wed Jan 10 23:17:39 2007
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:17:39 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <997a56990701101327s47d454f5tab50603480bbe4b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>	<20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>
	<997a56990701101327s47d454f5tab50603480bbe4b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45A56603.4090203@seehart.com>

Russell Whitaker wrote:
> On 1/10/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>   
>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2007, Russell Whitaker wrote:
>>     
>>> So, the listowner has made the decision that cross-posting to other
>>> lists is not permitted then?
>>>
>>> Look, I'm trying to get something going that involves both the
>>> capabilities security community and the Python community.  This is
>>> related to a specific attempt to assist both.  This rejection seems a
>>> bit hidebound and unnecessary to me.
>>>       
>> The problem -- as I already said -- is that cross-posting between mailing
>> lists means that the people who reply to your messages will get caught by
>> the requirement to be a list subscriber in order for their messages to be
>> seen.  (This requirement courtesy of spam.)  It just doesn't work unless
>> a large proportion of people are already on both mailing lists -- and
>> even then it can be irritating as people get multiple copies of messages.
>>
>> There are two reasonably good ways to handle this:
>>
>> * If the topic is particularly relevant to one mailing list, send an
>> invitation to the other mailing list(s) inviting them to subscribe
>>
>>     
>
> This is unnecessary and cumbersome.
>
>   
>> * If the topic doesn't have a good home, create a new mailing list and
>> invite everyone to join
>>     
>
> In this case, also unnecessary and cumbersome.
>
> OK, if this is the case, then I'm going to scale back my efforts on the part
> of BayPIGgies, and put my efforts elsewhere with less overhead.  Thanks
> for validating my impressions.
>
>   

I agree with both of you.

Unfortunately sometimes in a systems design situation (which this really 
is) there are multiple
factors that determine whether a particular approach will work well.  
When multiple people are
involved, this often results in a religious war because most people are 
only capable of seeing
one factor at a time, and consider that one factor to be some kind of 
absolute commandment
handed down by God.

Yes, cross-posting is clearly evil, since it has the potential to cause 
someone a certain amount
of inconvenience in certain situations.  Also, cross-posting is often 
done by evil spammers just
to maximize their audience.

So one question is whether or not there are reasonable alternatives that 
are not unnecessary
and cumbersome.  Both suggested alternatives are arguably more 
cumbersome than cross
posting, and did not take into account the intention of the cross-poster.

The announcement was regarding a potential talk at BayPiggies about 
Security.  Inviting the
Security community to join BayPiggies so that they can see a message 
suggesting a talk about
security won't work because the target Security audience should need to 
join BayPiggies.  On
the other hand, inviting the BayPiggies community to join the security 
list so that they can see
the same announcement would be equally strange.  The suggestion of 
creating a new list for
people who are interested in python security in the Bay Area is even 
more strange (yes, I
believe that was what Aahz was implicitly suggesting).

So, it would seem to me that there are certain situations where, 
although entirely evil, cross
posting is the best known solution.  I don't think that there is a 
general consensus that all
cross posting is bad.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossposting

I am not necessarily attached to the idea of allowing cross posting, but 
if cross posting is not
to be allowed, it would be helpful to have suggestions of alternatives 
that are actually superior
to cross posting.  Such ideas should be oriented toward solving 
problems, rather than just
eradicating evil (I wonder if this has anything to do with world 
peace).  Any ideas?

- Ken Seehart


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070110/4e90ae06/attachment.html 

From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Wed Jan 10 23:42:13 2007
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:42:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <20070110214924.978CD1E400A@bag.python.org>
References: <20070110214924.978CD1E400A@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0701101407581.11821@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>

>>> The problem -- as I already said -- is that cross-posting between 
>>> mailing lists means that the people who reply to your messages will 
>>> get caught by the requirement to be a list subscriber in order for 
>>> their messages to be seen.  (This requirement courtesy of spam.)
>
> That's the problem of the participants, not the moderator.

Hi Marilyn,

Wait, wait.  There's a basic misunderstanding of what Aahz is saying. 
I've been a list admin before, so let me try explaining it and see if I 
can get it right.  *grin*


Any message that gets into baypiggies is first checked to see if the 
sender is a subscriber on baypiggies.  This is done to prevent spammers 
from hitting the list, since they'll often not take the effort to 
subscribe.  If they're a subscriber, the message goes through.  That's how 
we're having this conversation now.

But any message that's from someone outside the subscriber list is placed 
on a "moderation queue" for the list administrator to pick up.  The 
list-admin has an interface for explicitely allowing messages into the 
list or not, which the admin may visit at their convenience.

The point is: even if the message is legitimate, it'll stay in the queue 
because its origin is from someone who is not subscribed to the list: 
computers aren't smart enough to figure out what is and isn't relevant. 
So there is a cost incurred when crossposting happens: participants on 
both lists are typically not subscribed on both lists, so the moderation 
queue on both lists can suddenly get pretty large.  Furthermore, this 
requires administrators on both lists to get much more involved.


So it is a moderator problem, from a purely technical perspective.  If you 
want to see what happens without this moderation system in place, take a 
look at the Jython-announce mailing list:

     http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum=jython-announce

Notice how much spam has ruined the usefulness of it.  I don't want to see 
the same thing happen anywhere else, because it's too sad.  And good list 
moderation does take work.  Talk with any other list moderator, and 
they'll share the same sentiments: it's a thankless, mostly invisible job, 
but an important one to keep the mailing list useful.



I sorta missed the original thread of this conversation; it sounded like 
someone wanted to bring up a security session to a Baypiggies meeting? 
That sounds great!

So... what's the problem?  Not crossposting should be easy: just start two 
separate, independent threads, one proposing hosting a session on 
Baypiggies, and another one mentioning the possible venue on the 
security-specific mailing list.  They are related, but different subjects.

The threads can refer to the other by name, so that interested 
participants can join.  But this is exactly the kind of situation where 
crossposting will cause problems for the moderator if we're not careful.


Best of wishes!

From whitaker at google.com  Wed Jan 10 23:47:36 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:47:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <1168468620.5054.85.camel@workshop>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com> <1168468620.5054.85.camel@workshop>
Message-ID: <997a56990701101447h7cfdb458n51cf4b27de8d3415@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/10/07, Michael Bernstein <webmaven at cox.net> wrote:
>
> I'll close with a mixed metaphor: Russell, please don't throw sand in
> the gears of the noosphere, OK? Please?
>

Characterizing my simple, straightforward attempt to arrange a
BayPIGgies meeting featuring a speaker who's well known in both the
Python and cap-securities communities as "throwing sand" in the gears
of anything is, well, inappropriate and unhelpful.

This discussion needs to die a whimpering death right now anyway, since:

1.) The speaker has already indicated he won't be able to join us, and
2.) I've lost interest in helping now, for reasons I've already given.

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From ken at seehart.com  Wed Jan 10 23:50:32 2007
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:50:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0701101328580.11821@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0701101328580.11821@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <45A56DB8.4010000@seehart.com>

Danny Yoo wrote:
 . . .
> Hi Russell,
>
> But this isn't anything too new on any particular mailing list: 
> discouraging crossposting is typical -- in fact, expected! --- on almost 
> all mailing lists.  Please see:
>
>      http://www.gweep.ca/~edmonds/usenet/ml-etiquette.html
>   
   . . .

So how about if we generally discourage cross posting, but not ban well 
intentioned cross posting
(especially from our friends at Google :-), and offer the following 
alternative:

<suggestion>
Pick one list as the primary target.  Post the message there.  In this 
case it would be BayPiggies
because the message was suggesting a meeting at BayPiggies.

Make a brief post with a summary (or even a copy -gasp-) of the message 
or announcement to the
other list(s), stating that the thread will be continued in the 
BayPiggies list (include an invitation to join).

If a heathen :-) does do a cross post, gently inform them of the 
problem, and fix the problem
appropriately, e.g. notify the secondary list(s) where the main thread 
is, and invite them to join.
</suggestion>

Generally, I don't like the idea of rejecting a well intentioned message 
that has potential value to our
community on a point of protocol, unless the breach of protocol is so 
damaging that there is no
other reasonable choice.  The world isn't perfect, and we do our best.

- Ken



From webmaven at cox.net  Wed Jan 10 23:37:00 2007
From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:37:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>
Message-ID: <1168468620.5054.85.camel@workshop>

On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 13:23 -0800, Aahz wrote:
> 
> There are two reasonably good ways to handle this:
> 
> * If the topic is particularly relevant to one mailing list, send an
> invitation to the other mailing list(s) inviting them to subscribe
> 
> * If the topic doesn't have a good home, create a new mailing list and
> invite everyone to join

There is another option, if the posting is primarily an announcement
that is relevant to multiple lists rather than intended as the start of
a thread: BCC the lists so each receives a separate copy.

In this *particular* case though, a separately-written email to each
list (with appropriate context and quoting) would have been far less
cryptic. (example: is the 'monthly meeting' referenced baypiggies' or
cap-talk's? Oh, cap-talk doesn't *have* meetings? Well, how are the
Baypiggies subscribers supposed to know that? etc.)

I find that writing a single message that appropriately addresses the
information needs of multiple disparate groups is actually *harder* work
(and can end up looking like a press-release), so it's easier to just
write separate emails.

I'll close with a mixed metaphor: Russell, please don't throw sand in
the gears of the noosphere, OK? Please?

- Michael R. Bernstein
  michaelbernstein.com


From webmaven at cox.net  Thu Jan 11 00:49:22 2007
From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:49:22 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <997a56990701101447h7cfdb458n51cf4b27de8d3415@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com> <1168468620.5054.85.camel@workshop>
	<997a56990701101447h7cfdb458n51cf4b27de8d3415@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1168472962.5054.88.camel@workshop>

On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 14:47 -0800, Russell Whitaker wrote:
> On 1/10/07, Michael Bernstein <webmaven at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > I'll close with a mixed metaphor: Russell, please don't throw sand in
> > the gears of the noosphere, OK? Please?
> 
> Characterizing my simple, straightforward attempt to arrange a
> BayPIGgies meeting featuring a speaker who's well known in both the
> Python and cap-securities communities as "throwing sand" in the gears
> of anything is, well, inappropriate and unhelpful.

It was a poor attempt at humor, aimed only at the means you chose,
rather than the worthwhile attempt itself. My apologies.

- Michael R. Bernstein
  michaelbernstein.com


From mac at Wireless.Com  Thu Jan 11 01:19:58 2007
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:19:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] New List Admin? (was Re: Fwd: Request to mailing list
 Baypiggies rejected)
In-Reply-To: <997a56990701101327s47d454f5tab50603480bbe4b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>
	<997a56990701101327s47d454f5tab50603480bbe4b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0701101606330.1049@S.culver.net>

<rant>

I propose we remove Aahz from running the BayPiggies list.

I think this is good timing, as we also have a new Program Chair.

Anybody else agree?  Clean house in 2007?

I'm sure Mr. Aahz is a fine, upstanding gentleman, but I've -never- seen him at a meeting, so I don't think he's really particularly interested in this group, except as he can exert power over all of us by capricious decisions.  (the PROPER response to this current brouahah would have been to send Russell PRIVATE email, asking him to re-submit, citing the reasons given.  Or to let it through.)

Now, I could be talked into calming down and realizing this was just a bonehead move by a novice email admin, and give the guy a break.

And, if I recall correctly, a different list member called for a new admin for this list a few months ago...

(Lastly, it is a _really_ bad idea to piss off Russell, a true Python devotee, due to some guy who never shows up at meetings.)

</rant>

-Mike


On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Russell Whitaker wrote:

> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:27:40 -0800
> From: Russell Whitaker <whitaker at google.com>
> To: Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com>
> Cc: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
> 
> On 1/10/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2007, Russell Whitaker wrote:
>>>
>>> So, the listowner has made the decision that cross-posting to other
>>> lists is not permitted then?
>>>
>>> Look, I'm trying to get something going that involves both the
>>> capabilities security community and the Python community.  This is
>>> related to a specific attempt to assist both.  This rejection seems a
>>> bit hidebound and unnecessary to me.
>>
>> The problem -- as I already said -- is that cross-posting between mailing
>> lists means that the people who reply to your messages will get caught by
>> the requirement to be a list subscriber in order for their messages to be
>> seen.  (This requirement courtesy of spam.)  It just doesn't work unless
>> a large proportion of people are already on both mailing lists -- and
>> even then it can be irritating as people get multiple copies of messages.
>>
>> There are two reasonably good ways to handle this:
>>
>> * If the topic is particularly relevant to one mailing list, send an
>> invitation to the other mailing list(s) inviting them to subscribe
>>
>
> This is unnecessary and cumbersome.
>
>> * If the topic doesn't have a good home, create a new mailing list and
>> invite everyone to join
>
> In this case, also unnecessary and cumbersome.
>
> OK, if this is the case, then I'm going to scale back my efforts on the part
> of BayPIGgies, and put my efforts elsewhere with less overhead.  Thanks
> for validating my impressions.
>
> -- 
> Russell Whitaker
> Sysops Tools Team Lead
> Google Inc., Mt View, CA
> "gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
> overruns." - Bill Frantz

From webmaven at cox.net  Thu Jan 11 02:41:23 2007
From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:41:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New List Admin? (was Re: Fwd: Request to
	mailing	list Baypiggies rejected)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0701101606330.1049@S.culver.net>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>
	<997a56990701101327s47d454f5tab50603480bbe4b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0701101606330.1049@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <1168479683.5054.133.camel@workshop>

On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 16:19 -0800, Mike Cheponis wrote:
> <rant>
> 
> I propose we remove Aahz from running the BayPiggies list.
> 
> I think this is good timing, as we also have a new Program Chair.
> 
> Anybody else agree?  Clean house in 2007?

No.

Then again, perhaps I don't get a vote, as I almost never attend
meetings either (I live in Las Vegas). And perhaps I should abstain, as
I'm related to him. But still, if given a vote, it would be 'no'.

> I'm sure Mr. Aahz is a fine, upstanding gentleman, but I've -never-
> seen him at a meeting, so I don't think he's really particularly
> interested in this group, except as he can exert power over all of us
> by capricious decisions.  (the PROPER response to this current
> brouahah would have been to send Russell PRIVATE email, asking him to
> re-submit, citing the reasons given.  Or to let it through.)

The decision wasn't capricious. He gave his reasons for the policy, and
more than one person concurred with supporting points.

List administration is a thankless job (hardly one of prestige and
power), as this incident shows. The message was automatically held for
moderation, and Aahz let it through. After the fact, he realized he
shouldn't have (based on an existing policy), so he sent an explanation
to the list.

You can argue with the policy, if you like, but the very fact that there
*is* a policy means there was no caprice.

Personally, I approve of the current policies, as too many lists I've
participated in have devolved into low S/N venues due to lack of similar
ones. If that happens here, I'll have to unsubscribe.

About the only improvement I can suggest is to add a page describing the
list policies (with supporting links) to the website.

> Now, I could be talked into calming down and realizing this was just a
> bonehead move by a novice email admin, and give the guy a break.

Aahz is not a novice list-admin, and it wasn't a bonehead move.

> And, if I recall correctly, a different list member called for a new
> admin for this list a few months ago...
> 
> (Lastly, it is a _really_ bad idea to piss off Russell, a true Python
> devotee, due to some guy who never shows up at meetings.)

There is more than one way to be active in a community these days, and
showing up at meetings is just one of them. Perhaps you should examine
the results of the following searches (meant only as an illustrative
example, I assure you, and not meant to be taken as an indicator of
relative worth or merit):

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/search?group=comp.lang.python&q=%22Russell+Whitaker%22

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=%22Mike+Cheponis%22

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/search?group=comp.lang.python&q=aahz

> </rant>

I don't really have anything further to say on this topic (which means I
won't respond to further rebuttals, if any, on-list), so if anyone (for
whatever reason) wants to continue this discussion with me, email me
privately. Thanks.

Sincerely,

- Michael R. Bernstein
  michaelbernstein.com


From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Jan 11 02:45:41 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:45:41 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New List Admin? (was Re: Fwd: Request to mailing
 list Baypiggies rejected)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0701101606330.1049@S.culver.net>
References: <997a56990701101327s47d454f5tab50603480bbe4b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>
	<997a56990701101327s47d454f5tab50603480bbe4b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070110172853.00bf6218@localhost>

At 04:19 PM 1/10/2007, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>I propose we remove Aahz from running the BayPiggies list.
>I think this is good timing, as we also have a new Program Chair.

As the outgoing Program Chair, I have had to make sometimes arbitrary, 
idiosyncratic decisions.  I know not everyone agreed with them.  Tough.

Our list administrator must also make decisions.

By rotating our positions we benefit in that progress can be made.  Over 
this last year, I have taken our meetings in some directions and avoided 
others.  With my year over, others can assess what was valuable and keep 
that, discarding what was not valuable.  Were I to stay on for another 
year, I would not change the format because I am comfortable with it.  No 
progress.

I think we would all be well served with an ordered transition to a new 
list admin so that the "love" can be shared.  I am not just saying this but 
have so acted in the position I do hold.

Regards, Dennis



  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From epalmore at pixar.com  Thu Jan 11 02:43:56 2007
From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:43:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Please Take Me Off This Listserv
Message-ID: <93607DA8-08F0-4972-BBC9-B535FF000C3F@pixar.com>

I would prefer not to get e-mails anymore.

Thanks!

From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Thu Jan 11 03:18:16 2007
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:18:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Please Take Me Off This Listserv
In-Reply-To: <93607DA8-08F0-4972-BBC9-B535FF000C3F@pixar.com>
References: <93607DA8-08F0-4972-BBC9-B535FF000C3F@pixar.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0701101815530.2387@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Elizabeth Palmore wrote:

> I would prefer not to get e-mails anymore.

Hi Elizabeth,

You can unsubscribe yourself from the list.  Please visit:

     http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

Near the bottom of that page is a form that says "Unsubscribe or edit 
options."  Enter your email address there, and you should be able to 
unsubscribe.


If you have further questions or run into issues while unsubscribing, 
please send them privately to 'baypiggies-owner at python.org', and the list 
administrator should be able to help you.

Good luck to you.

From whitaker at google.com  Thu Jan 11 04:35:01 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:35:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New List Admin? (was Re: Fwd: Request to mailing
	list Baypiggies rejected)
In-Reply-To: <1168479683.5054.133.camel@workshop>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>
	<997a56990701101327s47d454f5tab50603480bbe4b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0701101606330.1049@S.culver.net>
	<1168479683.5054.133.camel@workshop>
Message-ID: <997a56990701101935i2f756c4em7c600cb9c926aa4e@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/10/07, Michael Bernstein <webmaven at cox.net> wrote:
[SNIP]
> There is more than one way to be active in a community these days, and
> showing up at meetings is just one of them. Perhaps you should examine
> the results of the following searches (meant only as an illustrative
> example, I assure you, and not meant to be taken as an indicator of
> relative worth or merit):
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/search?group=comp.lang.python&q=%22Russell+Whitaker%22
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=%22Mike+Cheponis%22
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/search?group=comp.lang.python&q=aahz
>

I did _not_ solicit opinions from Mike Cheponis (no matter how well
intentioned) or Michael Bernstein on my value to any particular Python
community, online or otherwise.  This is grossly unfair.  As I said
earlier, I consider this thread dead for the reasons I already
indicated.  This is not productive, so let's drop it.

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From alvinwang at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 09:12:56 2007
From: alvinwang at gmail.com (Alvin Wang)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:12:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pycon 2008
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20701091802h7cbf4c8ei180b1fefd32305cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070109174633.00be7a30@localhost>
	<ca471dc20701091802h7cbf4c8ei180b1fefd32305cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77d044440701110012g19583315ia89d560b110b883d@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/9/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>
> On 1/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> > At 05:12 PM 1/9/2007, Alvin Wang wrote:
> > >Would BayPiggies be interested in being the host organization
> >
> > BayPiggies is not an organization and cannot assume legal liability or
> > insure anything.  At some point, when a facilities contract needs to be
> > signed, there is no legal entity which can sign.
> >
> > BayPiggies needs to have
> >
> >          a) a legal structure,
> >          b) volunteer(s) who will accept personal liability or
> >          c) sponsor(s) who will sign contracts
>
> No, the PSF takes care of all the legal liability, as it has done for
> all past PyCons.
>
> The only thing you need is one or more volunteers with local
> connections willing to put in time.
>
> The PSF will sign the papers, has an existing insurance contract, and
> has enough money in the bank to take the financial risk (of course
> this also means the PSF board needs to approve the budget).
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>

I have received a bid from Crowne Plaza near SFO.  It compares relatively
favorably with the Dallas event.  I expect to see a few more from near SFO.
I have sent in a letter to Santa Clara Convention Center.

Mike Cheponis has said that he is interested in helping out.  Is anybody
else interested?  You can reply to me directly.

Thanks
Alvinwang at gmail.com



-- 
Alvin Wang
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070111/f1769458/attachment.html 

From zia at cruzio.com  Thu Jan 11 09:24:14 2007
From: zia at cruzio.com (Doug Landauer)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:24:14 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New List Admin? (was Re: Fwd: Request to mailing
	list Baypiggies rejected)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0701101606330.1049@S.culver.net>
References: <mailman.0.1168463165.30736.baypiggies@python.org>
	<997a56990701101311td17f514hf5a6c50e2b548de5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070110212312.GA21280@panix.com>
	<997a56990701101327s47d454f5tab50603480bbe4b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0701101606330.1049@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <817bf1bb31c008816b70b24edded6f4a@cruzio.com>

On Jan 10, 2007, at 4:19 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote:
> I propose we remove Aahz from running the BayPiggies list.
> Anybody else agree?  Clean house in 2007?

No.  It's difficult enough to find competent volunteer help for an 
organization like BayPIGgies.  IMHO public calls for removal, 
especially from a vocal minority, just make it less likely that anyone 
will step forward.


> I'm sure Mr. Aahz is a fine, upstanding gentleman, but I've -never- 
> seen him at a meeting  ...

FWIW, I have seen him at several BayPIGgies meetings.


> Now, I could be talked into calming down and realizing this was just a 
> bonehead move by a novice email admin...

Precisely the opposite -- it was default mailman behavior, and Aahz as 
moderator is about as far from novice as anyone I know (except maybe 
John Levine, comp.compilers moderator).


Suggestion to Russell W., if you should see this message:  if you do 
add a new email list to a message, SAY SO IN THE BODY of the message.  
People tend not to notice cc's -- in general, not to read any headers 
except From and Subject.  I personally don't think announcement-style 
crossposting is such a problem, as long is it is made noticeably 
explicit in the message body.  And I'd like to hear Brett's talk, if it 
does end up organizing itself :-)

   -- Doug Landauer
      (Former admin of nexus at apple.com, circa early 1997 during the 
merger with NeXT)


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Thu Jan 11 18:07:13 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:07:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
Message-ID: <20070111170716.726261E400B@bag.python.org>


----- On Wednesday, January 10, 2007 whitaker at google.com wrote:
> This discussion needs to die a whimpering death right now anyway, since:
> 
> 1.) The speaker has already indicated he won't be able to join us, and
> 2.) I've lost interest in helping now, for reasons I've already given.
> 

#2 is exactly why this discussion needs to continue.  I too, several times, have thrown up my hands at the idea of helping because of unkind behavior here.  This 'feature' of the list is taking a big bite out of meetings.

But where else can a person go if she wants to celebrate in the church of Python?

How about we have a second python.org list: one specifically for organizing the meetings?  The rotating list-owner/slave would be someone who is interested in supporting the meetings and treats the people who volunteer like the valuable and important creatures they are.

I just requested info on how to start a python.org email list.

What should be the name?

If anyone has suggestions, I can set up a poll for us next week.  I'm away from my desk this week.

JJ, would you be willing to facilitate such a list if I set it up?  If, after a year or two, no one else volunteers to relieve you, I will.

Similarly, Jim Stockford and others involved in the details of arranging meetings, would you be willing to join a different list that is specifically for this purpose.

Then, this list can be the more general purpose discussion and announcement list.  And, heavy-handed moderation could be a good thing and we can be grateful that we have Aahz to do it.

Marilyn




> --
> Russell Whitaker
> Sysops Tools Team Lead
> Google Inc., Mt View, CA
> "gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
> overruns." - Bill Frantz
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From alvinwang at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 20:49:57 2007
From: alvinwang at gmail.com (Alvin Wang)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:49:57 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pycon 2008
In-Reply-To: <77d044440701110012g19583315ia89d560b110b883d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070109174633.00be7a30@localhost>
	<ca471dc20701091802h7cbf4c8ei180b1fefd32305cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<77d044440701110012g19583315ia89d560b110b883d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77d044440701111149y44be3651pd2e228d834d83508@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/11/07, Alvin Wang <alvinwang at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1/9/07, Guido van Rossum < guido at python.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 1/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> > > At 05:12 PM 1/9/2007, Alvin Wang wrote:
> > > >Would BayPiggies be interested in being the host organization
> > >
> > > BayPiggies is not an organization and cannot assume legal liability or
> > > insure anything.  At some point, when a facilities contract needs to
> > be
> > > signed, there is no legal entity which can sign.
> > >
> > > BayPiggies needs to have
> > >
> > >          a) a legal structure,
> > >          b) volunteer(s) who will accept personal liability or
> > >          c) sponsor(s) who will sign contracts
> >
> > No, the PSF takes care of all the legal liability, as it has done for
> > all past PyCons.
> >
> > The only thing you need is one or more volunteers with local
> > connections willing to put in time.
> >
> > The PSF will sign the papers, has an existing insurance contract, and
> > has enough money in the bank to take the financial risk (of course
> > this also means the PSF board needs to approve the budget).
> >
> > --
> > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/<http://www.python.org/%7Eguido/>
> > )
> >
>
> I have received a bid from Crowne Plaza near SFO.  It compares relatively
> favorably with the Dallas event.  I expect to see a few more from near SFO.
> I have sent in a letter to Santa Clara Convention Center.
>
> Mike Cheponis has said that he is interested in helping out.  Is anybody
> else interested?  You can reply to me directly.
>
> Thanks
> Alvinwang at gmail.com
>
> Status of the 2008 bid

5 people have volunteered to help.  1 person is checking with Fort Mason.  I
have talked to Santa Clara convention Bureau.  They are sending it to Santa
Clara hotels.  My gut says that a SFO or SF bid will do better.  The BART,
Caltrain and free SFO airport shuttles would seem to be more compelling.

I have been emailing the Pycon 2007 Chair.  Chicago and Boston are bidding.
Personally, I would hate to go to Boston.

-- 
Alvin Wang
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070111/01648adb/attachment.htm 

From mikeal at osafoundation.org  Thu Jan 11 21:31:37 2007
From: mikeal at osafoundation.org (Mikeal Rogers)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:31:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pycon 2008
In-Reply-To: <77d044440701111149y44be3651pd2e228d834d83508@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070109174633.00be7a30@localhost>
	<ca471dc20701091802h7cbf4c8ei180b1fefd32305cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<77d044440701110012g19583315ia89d560b110b883d@mail.gmail.com>
	<77d044440701111149y44be3651pd2e228d834d83508@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4778EE55-0C9E-4B06-99C7-97D718CB7E31@osafoundation.org>

> I have been emailing the Pycon 2007 Chair.  Chicago and Boston are  
> bidding.  Personally, I would hate to go to Boston.
>

I would love to see 2008 come to California, but as a concession  
anywhere that isn't Texas would be GREAT!

-Mikeal

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 21:37:54 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:37:54 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight
Message-ID: <45A6A022.5060301@gmail.com>

Dear Baypiggies,

I am sorry for any convenience that this may cause but I am unable to 
present tonight. I am in severe pain as I appear to have an abscess in 
one of my back teeth.
There is no way I'm going to be able to present in this condition. Even 
if the pain is alleviated by visit to the dentist.. I will wind up 
talking funny with all the Novocaine.. etc.

I am more than willing to redo this in February.. but there is no way I 
can make it tonight.

Please accept my sincerest apologies to all who rearranged schedules to 
attend.

(I would not have left this to last minute but I did not anticipate 
waking up this morning in pain.. toothaches are the worst)

Best Regards,
Donna M. Snnow, Owner
C Squared Enterprises
illuminate your web
http://www.csquaredtech.com



From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 22:02:25 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:02:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon
In-Reply-To: <45A63E99.7050009@taupro.com>
References: <45A63E99.7050009@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580701111302vfa483a5q9a3eefcfca7d1117@mail.gmail.com>

the co-chair of PyCon wishes to remind folks to register by the
deadline coming up this weekend.

hope to see you all there!
-wesley


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com>
Date: Jan 11, 2007 5:41 AM

Greetings.  As co-chair for the upcoming volunteer-run conference in the
Dallas (Addison) area I would like to extend a *special* invitation to those
just getting started with Python.  PyCon is not just for the experts and this
year we are making a special effort to reach out to those new to or curious
about Python.

The event is the fifth international Python Conference, being held Feb 23-25,
2007 at the Marriott-Quorum in Addison, with early-bird registration ending
*Jan 15*.

The conference draws approximately 400-500 attendees from diverse backgrounds
such as scientists from national and medical labs, college/K-12 educators, web
engineers and the myriad of IT developers and programming hobbyists.

Those new to the Python language are welcome, and we're offering a half-day
"Python 101" tutorial in the morning as well as a "Code Like a Pythonista:
Idiomatic Python" tutorial in the afternoon, on the day before the conference,
Thursday Feb 22.  This pair of tutorials is designed to help you get up to
speed and better enjoy the rest of the conference.

Other talks that may be of special interest to new Python programmers are:

  - Iterators in Action
  - Good-bye Hello World, Rethinking Teaching with Python
  - Easy Creation of Interactive Tutorials
  - pyweek: make games in 7 days
  - Developing Python Applications in Komodo 4.0
  - Tutorial: How to Document a Python Open Source Project

Being run by the Python community as a non-profit event, the conference
strives to be inexpensive, with registration being only $260 (or $195 if you
register prior to Jan 15th), with a further discount for students.  On the day
before the conference we are running the full day of classroom tutorials
(extra charge per class) and then after the conference is a free four-days of
sprints, which are informal gatherings of programmers to work together in
coding on various projects.  Sprints are excellent opportunities to do agile
pair-programming side-by-side with experienced programmers and make new friends.

Other activities are lightning talks, which are 5-minute presentations to show
off a cool technology or spread the word about a project, open space talks,
which are spontaneous gatherings around a topic and, new this year, a Python
Lab where experienced and novice programmers will work together to solve
challenging problems and then present their solutions.

The conference is also running four keynote talks by leaders in the
programming field, with a special focus on education this year:

   "The Power of Dangerous Ideas: Python and One Laptop per Child"
      by Ivan Krstic, senior member of the One Laptop per Child project

   "Premise: eLearning does not Belong in Public Schools"
      by Adele Goldberg, of SmallTalk fame

   "Python 3000"
      by Guido van Rossum, creator of Python

   "The Importance of Programming Literacy"
      by Robert M. "r0ml" Lefkowitz, a frequent speaker at O'Reilly conferences

I believe you will find the conference educational and enjoyable. More
information about the conference along with the full schedule of presentations
with abstracts, is available online:

   http://us.pycon.org/

Thanks for any help you can give in spreading the word,

Jeff Rush
Co-Chair PyCon 2007

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From whitaker at google.com  Thu Jan 11 22:04:17 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:04:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight
In-Reply-To: <45A6A022.5060301@gmail.com>
References: <45A6A022.5060301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <997a56990701111304w36d060dbn4603a9acea2a1958@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/11/07, Donna M. Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Baypiggies,
>
> I am sorry for any convenience that this may cause but I am unable to
> present tonight. I am in severe pain as I appear to have an abscess in
> one of my back teeth.

Ouch!  Sorry to hear about that.

> There is no way I'm going to be able to present in this condition. Even
> if the pain is alleviated by visit to the dentist.. I will wind up
> talking funny with all the Novocaine.. etc.

Attend to your health first: without it, nothing else matters (been
there myself,
and there's hardly a day that passes now where I don't appreciate that fact).

>
> I am more than willing to redo this in February.. but there is no way I
> can make it tonight.
>

I propose that we still hold this meeting, unless most of us express
an unwillingness
to do so.  Regardless, I'll be happy to help meet people at Building
43 and make sure
they get properly escorted upstairs.

Shall we have a meet 'n greet tonight, then?

Opinions, anyone?

Donna: get well, maybe see you next month?

Cheers,
Russell

> Please accept my sincerest apologies to all who rearranged schedules to
> attend.
>
> (I would not have left this to last minute but I did not anticipate
> waking up this morning in pain.. toothaches are the worst)
>
> Best Regards,
> Donna M. Snnow, Owner
> C Squared Enterprises
> illuminate your web
> http://www.csquaredtech.com
>

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 22:10:36 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:10:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight
In-Reply-To: <997a56990701111304w36d060dbn4603a9acea2a1958@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45A6A022.5060301@gmail.com>
	<997a56990701111304w36d060dbn4603a9acea2a1958@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580701111310p77fb38f8x37bfb53a743f5bde@mail.gmail.com>

> I propose that we still hold this meeting, unless most of us express
> an unwillingness
> to do so.  Regardless, I'll be happy to help meet people at Building
> 43 and make sure
> they get properly escorted upstairs.
>
> Shall we have a meet 'n greet tonight, then?
>
> Opinions, anyone?


best wishes to donna as well.

we should *always* meet, even in the absence of an agenda... it's been
like this for *years* now.  even when we didn't have an agenda *nor* a
venue, we have met before -- anyone remember the coco's meeting on
lawrence?  those that wish for a more structured meeting pass and wait
for next month's meeting.

meet-n-greets are best suited for such environments.  on other
occasions, we've had "newbies night," an opportunity for regular
members to bring friends and colleagues into the Python fold -- this
partial meet-n-greet comes with two people doing a demo on-screen...
one person driving and one person talking.

see you tonite!
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 11 22:16:20 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:16:20 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight/ 2006 Member
	Survey discussion
In-Reply-To: <997a56990701111304w36d060dbn4603a9acea2a1958@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F22DE840D48A4F3B56B5119A0B10@phx.gbl>

Here is an offer to present tonight:

I still have the May 2006 Member Survey slides,
and am willing to present them briefly again with a view to this time
generating the discussion that they were intended to generate.
With a view to taking tangible decisions or actions.

Last May we got a low attendance, there was hardly any time for
discussion in a 45 min slot and the meeting was not videotaped.
So the effort went largely unnoticed.

This is simply a stand-in offer at short notice.
I know that people who prefer technical meetings will dislike it.
Perhaps you can respond +1 / -1 / 0 (don't-care).

Regards,
Stephen

(PS I never put the slides up on the website as I was thinking how
to reformat them to present the different points of view
on the obvious contentious issues. However I am still none the wiser
so I will just post the slides as is in the next few days
without further delay.)

_________________________________________________________________
The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here.  Get all the scoop. 
http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2


From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Jan 11 22:18:54 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:18:54 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight
In-Reply-To: <45A6A022.5060301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070111130949.00bea480@localhost>

At 12:37 PM 1/11/2007, Donna M. Snow wrote:
>... there is no way I
>can make it tonight.

Donna,

I am sorry that you cannot make it tonight.  I hope you get treatment which 
relieves the pain.

All,

Unless there are better ideas emerging in the next few hours, I think the 
default schedule for tonight is an unstructured meet and greet.  Perhaps 
someone will have a compelling audience-type agenda item but for now the 
default is no program.

If we do that, I would like to propose that mapping/random be dropped as 
well.  If anyone has an announcement to make, make it here on the mailing 
list before the meeting so that people who want to make personal contact 
can do so at the meeting.

IMO, using the microphone to make announcements over individual 
conversations is ineffective and disruptive.  The same goes for breaking up 
conversations in progress simply to have an announcement session.

See you tonight, Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Jan 11 22:24:28 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:24:28 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight/ 2006 Member
 Survey discussion
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F22DE840D48A4F3B56B5119A0B10@phx.gbl>
References: <997a56990701111304w36d060dbn4603a9acea2a1958@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070111132331.00bf0bb0@localhost>

At 01:16 PM 1/11/2007, Stephen McInerney wrote:
>Here is an offer to present tonight:
>
>... a view to this time
>generating the discussion that they were intended to generate.

+1

Very timely with recent changes


  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 11 22:25:43 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:25:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight/ 2006 MemberSurvey
	discussion
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F22DE840D48A4F3B56B5119A0B10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F76706E5750F82090A7C50A0B10@phx.gbl>


Or we could do presentation/discussion for 45 min + meet-and-greet for 45 
min.

It's up to all of you.

Regards,
Stephen

>From: "Stephen McInerney" <spmcinerney at hotmail.com>
>To: baypiggies at python.org, whitaker at google.com, donnamsnow at gmail.com
>Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight/ 2006 
>MemberSurvey discussion
>Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:16:20 -0800
>
>Here is an offer to present tonight:
>
>I still have the May 2006 Member Survey slides,
>and am willing to present them briefly again with a view to this time
>generating the discussion that they were intended to generate.
>With a view to taking tangible decisions or actions.
>
>Last May we got a low attendance, there was hardly any time for
>discussion in a 45 min slot and the meeting was not videotaped.
>So the effort went largely unnoticed.
>
>This is simply a stand-in offer at short notice.
>I know that people who prefer technical meetings will dislike it.
>Perhaps you can respond +1 / -1 / 0 (don't-care).
>
>Regards,
>Stephen
>
>(PS I never put the slides up on the website as I was thinking how
>to reformat them to present the different points of view
>on the obvious contentious issues. However I am still none the wiser
>so I will just post the slides as is in the next few days
>without further delay.)
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here.  Get all the scoop.
>http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2
>
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>Baypiggies at python.org
>To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

_________________________________________________________________
>From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes has 
it all. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline1


From lhawthorn at google.com  Thu Jan 11 22:37:22 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:37:22 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight
In-Reply-To: <45A6A022.5060301@gmail.com>
References: <45A6A022.5060301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4869cee70701111337w70f8c32y3311a5d5ae6de344@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Donna,

I am very sorry to hear that you are not well.  If it makes you feel any
better, the tape of your Plone presentation was rediscovered this morning by
our technical talks team, so if you'd prefer not to do a retape we will have
the content available for release on Google Video. Please let me know your
thoughts, either on or off list, so I can follow up with you.

Take care,
LH

On 1/11/07, Donna M. Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Baypiggies,
>
> I am sorry for any convenience that this may cause but I am unable to
> present tonight. I am in severe pain as I appear to have an abscess in
> one of my back teeth.
> There is no way I'm going to be able to present in this condition. Even
> if the pain is alleviated by visit to the dentist.. I will wind up
> talking funny with all the Novocaine.. etc.
>
> I am more than willing to redo this in February.. but there is no way I
> can make it tonight.
>
> Please accept my sincerest apologies to all who rearranged schedules to
> attend.
>
> (I would not have left this to last minute but I did not anticipate
> waking up this morning in pain.. toothaches are the worst)
>
> Best Regards,
> Donna M. Snnow, Owner
> C Squared Enterprises
> illuminate your web
> http://www.csquaredtech.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070111/b91e8f97/attachment.htm 

From whitaker at google.com  Thu Jan 11 23:00:54 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:00:54 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight/ 2006 Member
	Survey discussion
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070111132331.00bf0bb0@localhost>
References: <997a56990701111304w36d060dbn4603a9acea2a1958@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F22DE840D48A4F3B56B5119A0B10@phx.gbl>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070111132331.00bf0bb0@localhost>
Message-ID: <997a56990701111400t293b85a2n906095d56b14ab42@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/11/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 01:16 PM 1/11/2007, Stephen McInerney wrote:
> >Here is an offer to present tonight:
> >
> >... a view to this time
> >generating the discussion that they were intended to generate.
>
> +1

+1, especially as all the material is new to me.

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 11 23:45:52 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:45:52 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 MemberSurvey discussion/ please update website
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F22DE840D48A4F3B56B5119A0B10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F16E6C2E0743B03613D3D86A0B10@phx.gbl>


If this has enough approval (+3 and noone against), then can we please 
urgently update
http://www.baypiggies.net/, which still lists last December's meeting:

Date: Thursday Jan 11 2007
Topic: BayPIGgies Member Survey discussion
Presenter: Stephen McInerney
Abstract:
- brief re-presentation of 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey
- constructive discussion of BayPIGgies group organization,
member interests and meeting structure

Thanks,
Stephen



>From: "Stephen McInerney" <spmcinerney at hotmail.com>
>To: baypiggies at python.org, whitaker at google.com, donnamsnow at gmail.com
>Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight/ 2006 
>MemberSurvey discussion
>Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:16:20 -0800
>
>Here is an offer to present tonight:
>
>I still have the May 2006 Member Survey slides,
>and am willing to present them briefly again with a view to this time
>generating the discussion that they were intended to generate.
>With a view to taking tangible decisions or actions.
>
>Last May we got a low attendance, there was hardly any time for
>discussion in a 45 min slot and the meeting was not videotaped.
>So the effort went largely unnoticed.
>
>This is simply a stand-in offer at short notice.
>I know that people who prefer technical meetings will dislike it.
>Perhaps you can respond +1 / -1 / 0 (don't-care).
>
>Regards,
>Stephen
>
>(PS I never put the slides up on the website as I was thinking how
>to reformat them to present the different points of view
>on the obvious contentious issues. However I am still none the wiser
>so I will just post the slides as is in the next few days
>without further delay.)
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here.  Get all the scoop.
>http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2
>
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>Baypiggies at python.org
>To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

_________________________________________________________________
Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! ?MSN Shopping 
Sales & Deals 
http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639


From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 02:09:56 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:09:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 MemberSurvey discussion/ please update website
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F16E6C2E0743B03613D3D86A0B10@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY131-F22DE840D48A4F3B56B5119A0B10@phx.gbl>
	<BAY131-F16E6C2E0743B03613D3D86A0B10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0701111709j3de5b5c2m7088de3d4f49b846@mail.gmail.com>

+1

On 1/11/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> If this has enough approval (+3 and noone against), then can we please
> urgently update
> http://www.baypiggies.net/, which still lists last December's meeting:
>
> Date: Thursday Jan 11 2007
> Topic: BayPIGgies Member Survey discussion
> Presenter: Stephen McInerney
> Abstract:
> - brief re-presentation of 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey
> - constructive discussion of BayPIGgies group organization,
> member interests and meeting structure
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
>
>
>
> >From: "Stephen McInerney" <spmcinerney at hotmail.com>
> >To: baypiggies at python.org, whitaker at google.com, donnamsnow at gmail.com
> >Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] I can't do presentation tonight/ 2006
> >MemberSurvey discussion
> >Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:16:20 -0800
> >
> >Here is an offer to present tonight:
> >
> >I still have the May 2006 Member Survey slides,
> >and am willing to present them briefly again with a view to this time
> >generating the discussion that they were intended to generate.
> >With a view to taking tangible decisions or actions.
> >
> >Last May we got a low attendance, there was hardly any time for
> >discussion in a 45 min slot and the meeting was not videotaped.
> >So the effort went largely unnoticed.
> >
> >This is simply a stand-in offer at short notice.
> >I know that people who prefer technical meetings will dislike it.
> >Perhaps you can respond +1 / -1 / 0 (don't-care).
> >
> >Regards,
> >Stephen
> >
> >(PS I never put the slides up on the website as I was thinking how
> >to reformat them to present the different points of view
> >on the obvious contentious issues. However I am still none the wiser
> >so I will just post the slides as is in the next few days
> >without further delay.)
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here.  Get all the scoop.
> >http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Baypiggies mailing list
> >Baypiggies at python.org
> >To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! MSN Shopping
> Sales & Deals
> http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070111/4fd93fbb/attachment.htm 

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 03:00:40 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:00:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <20070111170716.726261E400B@bag.python.org>
References: <20070111170716.726261E400B@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701111800k67996601ua5321d87217f86ef@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/11/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
>
> ----- On Wednesday, January 10, 2007 whitaker at google.com wrote:
> > This discussion needs to die a whimpering death right now anyway, since:
> >
> > 1.) The speaker has already indicated he won't be able to join us, and
> > 2.) I've lost interest in helping now, for reasons I've already given.
>
> #2 is exactly why this discussion needs to continue.  I too, several times, have thrown up my hands at the idea of helping because of unkind behavior here.  This 'feature' of the list is taking a big bite out of meetings.

It's very easy to read an insult in an email that isn't there.
Russell made a simple protocol mistake.  He got insulted by the
response.  Russell, I'm sorry you felt slighted.  I'm thankful for
your contribution--keep it up!  Let's just move on.

> But where else can a person go if she wants to celebrate in the church of Python?
>
> How about we have a second python.org list: one specifically for organizing the meetings?  The rotating list-owner/slave would be someone who is interested in supporting the meetings and treats the people who volunteer like the valuable and important creatures they are.
>
> I just requested info on how to start a python.org email list.
>
> What should be the name?
>
> If anyone has suggestions, I can set up a poll for us next week.  I'm away from my desk this week.
>
> JJ, would you be willing to facilitate such a list if I set it up?  If, after a year or two, no one else volunteers to relieve you, I will.

I think that this whole incident was rather unfortunate.  I'd hate to
see us split up over so small a thing.  I will serve if requested, but
I'd prefer not to fork.

> Similarly, Jim Stockford and others involved in the details of arranging meetings, would you be willing to join a different list that is specifically for this purpose.
>
> Then, this list can be the more general purpose discussion and announcement list.  And, heavy-handed moderation could be a good thing and we can be grateful that we have Aahz to do it.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From whitaker at google.com  Fri Jan 12 03:03:34 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:03:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701111800k67996601ua5321d87217f86ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070111170716.726261E400B@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701111800k67996601ua5321d87217f86ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <997a56990701111803j7714ab33we977caa0855d2e23@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/11/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that this whole incident was rather unfortunate.  I'd hate to
> see us split up over so small a thing.  I will serve if requested, but
> I'd prefer not to fork.
>

Rumors of the death of my involvement have been greatly exaggerated:
I'm actually running the BayPIGgies meeting tonight...

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 03:13:17 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:13:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <997a56990701111803j7714ab33we977caa0855d2e23@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070111170716.726261E400B@bag.python.org>	<c41f67b90701111800k67996601ua5321d87217f86ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<997a56990701111803j7714ab33we977caa0855d2e23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45A6EEBD.5040601@gmail.com>

I also hear rumors that Alexander Limi (the PloneFather) will be there.. 
dang this tooth!

Donna M. Snow

From whitaker at google.com  Fri Jan 12 08:06:46 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:06:46 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Request to mailing list Baypiggies rejected
In-Reply-To: <45A6EEBD.5040601@gmail.com>
References: <20070111170716.726261E400B@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701111800k67996601ua5321d87217f86ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<997a56990701111803j7714ab33we977caa0855d2e23@mail.gmail.com>
	<45A6EEBD.5040601@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <997a56990701112306q36040b7aq479029f04338d912@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/11/07, Donna M. Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> I also hear rumors that Alexander Limi (the PloneFather) will be there..
> dang this tooth!
>

Yes, and darn that tooth to Heck!  :)

He was there.  He talked at the open mike.  I videotaped the
proceedings, and in a few days, you and the world will be able to see
it on Google Video.  :)

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 19:15:41 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:15:41 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Programmer productivity video now available
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701121015h3fb5dd23t40b7afd4672cbfd2@mail.gmail.com>

Hey guys,

I'm behind on my email, but I don't think it's been announced yet:  my
talk on programmer productivity is now up on Google Video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1870073927412058193&q=programmer+productivity

I'd like to thank Robert Healy and Leslie for making that happen.

Enjoy!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From markie at ydl.net  Fri Jan 12 20:06:01 2007
From: markie at ydl.net (Mark Jaffe)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:06:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70701111549u28f140d1g2e842f4f47c2dc88@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4869cee70701091638j573d593foc099c8a2ee0012b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<EAF9ECA5-3162-4B2B-94F2-BC7872B33AAC@ydl.net>
	<4869cee70701111549u28f140d1g2e842f4f47c2dc88@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6BCD48BB-4358-4A52-9145-2BE89B2B6880@ydl.net>

Actually, I have been wondering why there is no link to the wiki from  
the main BayPiggies page. That way it would be easier to show where  
to register for the meetings.

Mark
On Jan 11, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Leslie Hawthorn wrote:

> Hi Mark,
>
> Unfortunately, I won't be able to get a badge for you in advance.   
> Please plan to sign in at Building 43 reception - it should only  
> take a minute.
>
> Best,
> LH
>
> On 1/11/07, Mark Jaffe <markie at ydl.net> wrote:
> Leslie,
>
> I have added my name to the wiki, please include me for tonight.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
> On Jan 9, 2007, at 4:38 PM, Leslie Hawthorn wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> If you will be attending the Baypiggies meeting this Thursday,  
>> January 11th, please don't forget to register on the wiki by 5 PM  
>> tomorrow, 1/10:
>>
>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings
>>
>> Cheers,
>> LH
>>
>> -- 
>> Leslie Hawthorn
>> Open Source Program Office
>> Google Inc.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
> --
> Mark Jaffe
> markie at ydl.net
> http://markjaffe.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Leslie Hawthorn
> Open Source Program Office
> Google Inc.

--
Mark Jaffe
markie at ydl.net
http://markjaffe.blogspot.com



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070112/8897eb96/attachment.htm 

From lhawthorn at google.com  Fri Jan 12 20:48:44 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:48:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <6BCD48BB-4358-4A52-9145-2BE89B2B6880@ydl.net>
References: <4869cee70701091638j573d593foc099c8a2ee0012b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<EAF9ECA5-3162-4B2B-94F2-BC7872B33AAC@ydl.net>
	<4869cee70701111549u28f140d1g2e842f4f47c2dc88@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCD48BB-4358-4A52-9145-2BE89B2B6880@ydl.net>
Message-ID: <4869cee70701121148w62095f23t9a73a6b938f7cbb4@mail.gmail.com>

+1

I am not the owner of baypiggies.net, but I think this change would be very
helpful.

Best,
LH

On 1/12/07, Mark Jaffe <markie at ydl.net> wrote:
>
> Actually, I have been wondering why there is no link to the wiki from the
> main BayPiggies page. That way it would be easier to show where to register
> for the meetings.
> Mark
> On Jan 11, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Leslie Hawthorn wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> Unfortunately, I won't be able to get a badge for you in advance.  Please
> plan to sign in at Building 43 reception - it should only take a minute.
>
> Best,
> LH
>
> On 1/11/07, Mark Jaffe <markie at ydl.net> wrote:
> >
> > Leslie,
> > I have added my name to the wiki, please include me for tonight.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Mark
> > On Jan 9, 2007, at 4:38 PM, Leslie Hawthorn wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > If you will be attending the Baypiggies meeting this Thursday, January
> > 11th, please don't forget to register on the wiki by 5 PM tomorrow, 1/10:
> >
> > http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings
> >
> > Cheers,
> > LH
> >
> > --
> > Leslie Hawthorn
> > Open Source Program Office
> > Google Inc.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
> >
> >  --
> > Mark Jaffe
> > markie at ydl.net
> > http://markjaffe.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Leslie Hawthorn
> Open Source Program Office
> Google Inc.
>
>
> --
> Mark Jaffe
> markie at ydl.net
> http://markjaffe.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>


-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070112/b0068c1a/attachment.htm 

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 20:53:48 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:53:48 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <6BCD48BB-4358-4A52-9145-2BE89B2B6880@ydl.net>
References: <4869cee70701091638j573d593foc099c8a2ee0012b5@mail.gmail.com>	<EAF9ECA5-3162-4B2B-94F2-BC7872B33AAC@ydl.net>	<4869cee70701111549u28f140d1g2e842f4f47c2dc88@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCD48BB-4358-4A52-9145-2BE89B2B6880@ydl.net>
Message-ID: <45A7E74C.1050202@gmail.com>

Actually I added a link to the wiki on the home page a couple months ago...

From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Jan 12 20:27:00 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:27:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <6BCD48BB-4358-4A52-9145-2BE89B2B6880@ydl.net>
References: <4869cee70701111549u28f140d1g2e842f4f47c2dc88@mail.gmail.com>
	<4869cee70701091638j573d593foc099c8a2ee0012b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<EAF9ECA5-3162-4B2B-94F2-BC7872B33AAC@ydl.net>
	<4869cee70701111549u28f140d1g2e842f4f47c2dc88@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070112112042.00bf0d18@localhost>

At 11:06 AM 1/12/2007, Mark Jaffe wrote:
>Actually, I have been wondering why there is no link to the wiki from the 
>main BayPiggies page. That way it would be easier to show where to 
>register for the meetings.

It might also make it easier to incorporate recent information.  As 
outgoing meeting planner, I was able to maintain the status of the meetings 
on the wiki in real time while there were frequent delays in getting the 
"official" page updated.

Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From lhawthorn at google.com  Fri Jan 12 20:57:42 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:57:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <45A7E74C.1050202@gmail.com>
References: <4869cee70701091638j573d593foc099c8a2ee0012b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<EAF9ECA5-3162-4B2B-94F2-BC7872B33AAC@ydl.net>
	<4869cee70701111549u28f140d1g2e842f4f47c2dc88@mail.gmail.com>
	<6BCD48BB-4358-4A52-9145-2BE89B2B6880@ydl.net>
	<45A7E74C.1050202@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4869cee70701121157j5632fb54r8f643ec1347e990@mail.gmail.com>

Whoops, sorry I missed it!  Is there any way to make the link a bit more
discoverable?

On 1/12/07, Donna M. Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Actually I added a link to the wiki on the home page a couple months
> ago...
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070112/88436644/attachment.html 

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 12 23:19:09 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:19:09 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070112112042.00bf0d18@localhost>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F143F7F2B0A5A6835E29FF3A0B00@phx.gbl>


It causes confusion to have both a webpage and a wiki, especially when the
information is seriously out of sync. (As of yesterday afternoon, 
www.baypiggies.net
was still advertising JJ's talk from Dec 14 2006)

Most people will go to the webpage first and may not even know about the 
wiki.
The link says "Please visit the wiki to add yourself to the attendee list 
and access the most up-to-date information for the meeting." which is 
slightly confusing.

What is the solution: more webmasters? giving Leslie (+others) edit access 
to the website?
Can we integrate the wiki more closely with the website?

Regards,
Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help 
http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 23:32:00 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:32:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F143F7F2B0A5A6835E29FF3A0B00@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY131-F143F7F2B0A5A6835E29FF3A0B00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <45A80C60.7070307@gmail.com>

No, I think we just need to bite the bullet and switch to the Plone 
site.. I'm planning on updating site to Plone 2.5.1 by Sunday and will 
show anyone who wants to learn how to add content to the site...

I did ask for help awhile ago.. as I was swamped with work last 
quarter.. and have even more work this quarter (Plone work.. )

Let's just plan on switching by Monday.. any other Plonista's who want 
admin access to the site and would be interested in helping to finish 
the migration of content from old site to new.. please feel free to ping 
me...
This will improve update of content on the site in general.. as it will 
not be dependent on my often hectic schedule..

Donna



Stephen McInerney wrote:
> It causes confusion to have both a webpage and a wiki, especially when the
> information is seriously out of sync. (As of yesterday afternoon, 
> www.baypiggies.net
> was still advertising JJ's talk from Dec 14 2006)
>
> Most people will go to the webpage first and may not even know about the 
> wiki.
> The link says "Please visit the wiki to add yourself to the attendee list 
> and access the most up-to-date information for the meeting." which is 
> slightly confusing.
>
> What is the solution: more webmasters? giving Leslie (+others) edit access 
> to the website?
> Can we integrate the wiki more closely with the website?
>
> Regards,
> Stephen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Fixing up the home? Live Search can help 
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>   


From p at ulmcnett.com  Fri Jan 12 23:32:03 2007
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:32:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F143F7F2B0A5A6835E29FF3A0B00@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY131-F143F7F2B0A5A6835E29FF3A0B00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <45A80C63.5050806@ulmcnett.com>

Stephen McInerney wrote:
> What is the solution: more webmasters? giving Leslie (+others) edit access 
> to the website?
> Can we integrate the wiki more closely with the website?

Why even have the wiki? Use plone to make a member-addable list of 
registrants against a table of upcoming dates. Better yet, set up tables 
for:

members
events
member_events

On an honor system people can check/uncheck their own registrations.

For the upcoming talk info, let all members edit the information so 
whoever is inclined to do so will do it. Perhaps this is the person 
organizing the particular meeting, or perhaps it is someone that notices 
it hasn't been done.

Put an appropriate level of spam guarding in place, but mostly trust 
people on the honor system, in the spirit of a wiki.

Either that or just make BayPIGgies.net one big wiki.

-- 
pkm ~ http://paulmcnett.com


From wescpy at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 23:58:06 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:58:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ANN: (Intensive) Intro to Python training, Feb 7-9,
	San Francisco
Message-ID: <78b3a9580701121458se25c929od439075a565728ba@mail.gmail.com>

FINAL REMINDER... as announced last night, we still have some seats left!

What:   (Intensive) Intro to Python
When:  February 7-9, 2007
Where: San Francisco (SFO/San Bruno), CA, USA
Web:    http://cyberwebconsulting.com (click "Python Training" link)

Need to get up-to-speed with Python as quickly as possible?  Come join
us in beautiful Northern California for another one of our rigorous
Python training events! This is an intense introduction to Python
directed towards those who have some proficiency in another high-level
language. This course will take place in San Bruno right near the San
Francisco International Airport.

LOCALS: easy freeway (101/280/380) with lots of parking plus public
transit (BART and CalTrain) access via the San Bruno stations, easily
accessible from all parts of the Bay Area

VISITORS: free shuttle to/from the airport, free high-speed internet,
free breakfast and evening reception daily

The cost is only $1095 (reg $1295) per attendee.  Discounts are
available for multiple registrations as well as teachers/students.
Registration will be opening soon for the next Intro and Advanced
courses both taking place back-to-back in May 2007. See website for
more details.

hope to see you there!
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From craigwharris at comcast.net  Mon Jan 15 02:49:08 2007
From: craigwharris at comcast.net (craig harris)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 17:49:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Is it problematic to embed python in a Qt C++ app?
Message-ID: <002201c73847$590ff540$6601000a@sabiolapcraig>

HI all,
I have a C++ Qt based app and am creating a text API for its functions.  It would work as follows:  A Qt command console would allow users to type in text. Then that text would be parsed by python.  The python would wrap C++ functions and execute them.  
Before I try to do this, I was wondering if anyone had advice 'against' or 'for' this approach? Is it problematic?

I guesss another way of asking: can you simaltaneously embed python in C++ and C++ in python?

Thanks, 
Craig
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070114/907ebaa5/attachment.htm 

From ken at seehart.com  Mon Jan 15 21:24:23 2007
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:24:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Is it problematic to embed python in a Qt C++ app?
In-Reply-To: <002201c73847$590ff540$6601000a@sabiolapcraig>
References: <002201c73847$590ff540$6601000a@sabiolapcraig>
Message-ID: <45ABE2F7.6080206@seehart.com>

craig harris wrote:
> HI all,
> I have a C++ Qt based app and am creating a text API for its 
> functions.  It would work as follows:  A Qt command console would 
> allow users to type in text. Then that text would be parsed by 
> python.  The python would wrap C++ functions and execute them. 
> Before I try to do this, I was wondering if anyone had advice 
> 'against' or 'for' this approach? Is it problematic?
>  
> I guesss another way of asking: can you simaltaneously embed python in 
> C++ and C++ in python?
>  
> Thanks,
> Craig

To answer your second way of asking: Yes.  In fact, projects involving 
*embedding *almost always involve *extending *as well, (otherwise adding 
python would probably not be very helpful except maybe as a built in 
calculator) :-) .

Some terminology to help readers follow this:
*extending *= wrapping your C/C++ code in python (thereby making your 
application's internals available to python code)
*embedding *= making the python interpreter available to the end user 
(thereby allowing the end user to write python code)

See also: http://docs.python.org/ext/ext.html

I don't know much about QT, but I can't imagine any problems being 
created by QT with respect to extending and embedding (especially given 
the success of PyQT), so I can say with 99.742% certainty that it will 
work fine.  I'm a wxPython guy.

It is much better to write the entire user interface in python (PyQT or 
wxPython, etc) in the first place, but if you already have a working GUI 
in C++ it definitely makes sense to embed python.

BTW, the only overwhelming reason to favor C++ over python for any /new 
/GUI development is because management thinks it's a good idea and you 
really don't want to annoy them with newfangled ideas.  Another 
advantage of writing GUI code in C++ instead of python is that it takes 
4 to 10 times as long to implement C++, which is very good for job 
security. :-)  

- Ken Seehart

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070115/74dc0ec6/attachment.html 

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 16 01:43:53 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:43:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Is it problematic to embed python in a Qt C++ app?
In-Reply-To: <45ABE2F7.6080206@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F128685B141AA2898CD957CA0B40@phx.gbl>

>From: Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com>

>BTW, the only overwhelming reason to favor C++ over python for any /new 
>/GUI development is because management thinks it's a good idea and you 
>really don't want to annoy them with newfangled ideas.  Another advantage 
>of writing GUI code in C++ instead of python is that it takes 4 to 10 times 
>as long to implement C++, which is very good for job security. :-)

I was discussing with a very experienced Java-XML-C++ friend,
he is open to using Python instead of C++ in his GUI, but had the
usual expectations about runtime performance being much slower.
Are there any case studies or papers to evangelize people like that?
If not, this would make good future PyCon material.

Also, documenting and quantifying the shorter development time and
less maintenance would be useful too.

As to commercial decisions, the labor pool of C++/Java GUI programmers
is probably 100x as large as the Python one, and that's a main driver.

Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help 
http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG


From davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com  Tue Jan 16 02:01:05 2007
From: davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com (Monte Davidoff)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 17:01:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Is it problematic to embed python in a Qt C++ app?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F128685B141AA2898CD957CA0B40@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY131-F128685B141AA2898CD957CA0B40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <45AC23D1.8060406@alluvialsw.com>

Stephen McInerney wrote:
>
>> Another advantage 
>> of writing GUI code in C++ instead of python is that it takes 4 to 10 times 
>> as long to implement C++, ...
> 
> As to commercial decisions, the labor pool of C++/Java GUI programmers
> is probably 100x as large as the Python one, and that's a main driver.

So, to get an equivalent amount of work done, we only 10x-25x more 
Python programmers. :-)  Does anyone know the growth rate of Python 
programmers vs. C++/Java programmers?

Monte

From rchandran at gmail.com  Tue Jan 16 03:28:23 2007
From: rchandran at gmail.com (Rajesh Chandran)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:28:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Job at Wize, LLC
Message-ID: <829fb1300701151828i718b3a99o5eea915694fa470b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

At Wize (http://wize.com), we're looking for an experienced Software
Engineer.  A description of the company and the job follows.

If interested please send your resume to jobs at wize.com or to me directly.

Thanks,
Rajesh
--------------

Wize.com (http://wize.com) is a top tier VC funded startup focused on
re-inventing the "what to buy" space. Wize is focused on solving the
challenging problem of doing fast effective product research. Some
industry analysts have called us the "Consumer Reports of the Future"
but our mission is to become the trusted source for all product
recommendations. Our team consists of a number of industry veterans
with deep experience in startups and well known companies such as
PeopleSoft, E-Trade, NetSuite, and Procter & Gamble. 2007 will be a
big growth year for Wize and we are looking for some bright,
passionate people to come in early and help us shape the future.

 JOB DESCRIPTION

 We're looking for a Senior Software Engineer to work in our small,
agile Engineering team.

 RESPONSIBILITIES

    * Design, build and own major portions of the Wize system.

 REQUIREMENTS

    * BS or MS in Computer Science or equivalent experience.
    * Demonstrable experience taking ideas from concept to
realizations as web applications and with *all* technologies involved
from database to front-end.  Take a look at our current site -- you
should know what it takes to build it.

 PLUSES

    * Experience with dynamic programming languages such as Python.
    * Experience with machine learning and statistical analysis.
    * Open source contributions.

PYTHON USAGE NOTE

   * Parts of analytics (AI, statistical analysis, NLP, etc.), search
and front-end is being built in Python.
   * We tend not to be pedantic about technology choices -- we'll use
the best tool for the job; Python just happens to be that tool most
often.

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 16 02:18:15 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 17:18:15 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Is it problematic to embed python in a Qt C++ app?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F128685B141AA2898CD957CA0B40@phx.gbl>
References: <45ABE2F7.6080206@seehart.com>
	<BAY131-F128685B141AA2898CD957CA0B40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0701151718h1467f9e5t9d0da7e8ce5303e3@mail.gmail.com>

Do any of you remember Jimmy Retzlaff's presentation (at Stanford) on the
python/wxPython app he wrote for his brother's company?

There is quite a bit of fast graphics manipulation going on in that app, and
it was all written in Python ( Jimmy, correct me if I'm wrong). He had even
illustrated the fact that earlier cuts of the program were prohibitively
slow, until he optimized the critical areas.

Drew Pertulla's video clip organizer app (sorry, I forgot the name of it),
is another fine example of Python not being the bottleneck in a
high-performance situation.

It would be great is examples like these would proliferate to help disspell
the myth that Python is too slow for serious development.





On 1/15/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >From: Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com>
>
> >BTW, the only overwhelming reason to favor C++ over python for any /new
> >/GUI development is because management thinks it's a good idea and you
> >really don't want to annoy them with newfangled ideas.  Another advantage
> >of writing GUI code in C++ instead of python is that it takes 4 to 10
> times
> >as long to implement C++, which is very good for job security. :-)
>
> I was discussing with a very experienced Java-XML-C++ friend,
> he is open to using Python instead of C++ in his GUI, but had the
> usual expectations about runtime performance being much slower.
> Are there any case studies or papers to evangelize people like that?
> If not, this would make good future PyCon material.
>
> Also, documenting and quantifying the shorter development time and
> less maintenance would be useful too.
>
> As to commercial decisions, the labor pool of C++/Java GUI programmers
> is probably 100x as large as the Python one, and that's a main driver.
>
> Stephen
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070115/0efd4f3a/attachment.htm 

From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Tue Jan 16 04:37:43 2007
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 19:37:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Is it problematic to embed python in a Qt C++ app?
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0701151718h1467f9e5t9d0da7e8ce5303e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45ABE2F7.6080206@seehart.com>
	<BAY131-F128685B141AA2898CD957CA0B40@phx.gbl>
	<8249c4ac0701151718h1467f9e5t9d0da7e8ce5303e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8540148a0701151937s346e615bn9ea21b8f65369f9d@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/15/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do any of you remember Jimmy Retzlaff's presentation (at Stanford) on the
> python/wxPython app he wrote for his brother's company?
>
> There is quite a bit of fast graphics manipulation going on in that app, and
> it was all written in Python ( Jimmy, correct me if I'm wrong). He had even
> illustrated the fact that earlier cuts of the program were prohibitively
> slow, until he optimized the critical areas.
>
> Drew Pertulla's video clip organizer app (sorry, I forgot the name of it),
> is another fine example of Python not being the bottleneck in a
> high-performance situation.
>
> It would be great is examples like these would proliferate to help disspell
> the myth that Python is too slow for serious development.

To be fair this is true of TCL, Java, and just about any
interpretted/JiT'd/P-codish language.

A company I worked at in 97 used tcl/tk for its EDA gui ( think
polygons representing each an every layer/transister/via/etc in a
chip, many many many many polygons).  The company was acquired and the
new parent company decided TCL/TK was too slow.

Then our GUI guy demo'd his mostly TCL/TK (calling c++ to traverse the
database) GUI and the result was those espousing a pure c++/C/X gui
were publically embarassed...

Same story for a Java based gui at another company.. the question was
c++/QT vs Java,   with the Java product customers ask if the demo is
canned because they don't beleive such a gui would be able to update
as fast as it does..

Most times the issue is the algorithm, lack of caching, and programmer
skill.  Computers are soo much faster than the human eye at this
point. (And have been for some time.)

-Bill

From DennisR at dair.com  Tue Jan 16 19:14:50 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:14:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Is it problematic to embed python in a Qt C++ app?
In-Reply-To: <8540148a0701151937s346e615bn9ea21b8f65369f9d@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <8249c4ac0701151718h1467f9e5t9d0da7e8ce5303e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<45ABE2F7.6080206@seehart.com>
	<BAY131-F128685B141AA2898CD957CA0B40@phx.gbl>
	<8249c4ac0701151718h1467f9e5t9d0da7e8ce5303e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070116100042.00bf2be0@localhost>

At 07:37 PM 1/15/2007, William Deegan wrote:
>Most times the issue is the algorithm, lack of caching, and programmer
>skill.

Yes.  My DialogDevil app is inherently at least order N cube (open windows 
x refresh rate x memorized tasks).  In Python, it is very easy to write 
dictionary-based caches.  It started out s-l-o-w.  There are 6-7 caches 
throughout this code and total CPU load is under 1% in a variety of conditions.

Memory usage is a hidden performance killer.  I have not seen an analysis 
of Python usage of L1 and L2 cache usage and would be interested if anyone 
has done this.  The total memory footprint of DialogDevil with WX is, 
choke, 48 MB.  Granted, some of this is in shared libraries but this is 
still 3X larger than anything else I have seen run.  I am near tail end of 
a re-write to strip out WX completely and am seeing a target footprint of 6 
MB as very achievable.

I would expect the memory footprint of a C-based WX app to be smaller than 
an equivalent WX Python app because the PYD and SWIG wrapping is not required.

<ducking>

Regards, Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jan 16 20:21:34 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:21:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Is it problematic to embed python in a Qt C++ app?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F128685B141AA2898CD957CA0B40@phx.gbl>
References: <45ABE2F7.6080206@seehart.com>
	<BAY131-F128685B141AA2898CD957CA0B40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701161121s7badf299n7c69febdb7cb0a42@mail.gmail.com>

> As to commercial decisions, the labor pool of C++/Java GUI programmers
> is probably 100x as large as the Python one, and that's a main driver.

The labor pool for Java developers may be larger than that of Python
developers, but experience at IronPort (where we had both Java and
Python programmers) showed that finding a *good* Java programmer was
just as hard as finding a good Python programmer.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jan 16 20:27:55 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:27:55 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Is it problematic to embed python in a Qt C++ app?
In-Reply-To: <002201c73847$590ff540$6601000a@sabiolapcraig>
References: <002201c73847$590ff540$6601000a@sabiolapcraig>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701161127v409c3ea3w46bb7590da6b7eb9@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/14/07, craig harris <craigwharris at comcast.net> wrote:
> HI all,
> I have a C++ Qt based app and am creating a text API for its functions.  It
> would work as follows:  A Qt command console would allow users to type in
> text. Then that text would be parsed by python.  The python would wrap C++
> functions and execute them.
> Before I try to do this, I was wondering if anyone had advice 'against' or
> 'for' this approach? Is it problematic?
>
> I guesss another way of asking: can you simaltaneously embed python in C++
> and C++ in python?

I bet it will be fine.  Just remember to only update the GUI from one
thread (this is still required in QT, right?).

If I were a real C++ coder, I'd say something useful about Boost
permitting interoperability between C++ and Python, but I'm not a real
C++ coder ;)

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From cbc at unc.edu  Thu Jan 18 06:17:48 2007
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 00:17:48 -0500
Subject: [Baypiggies] Zope 3 Boot Camp
Message-ID: <45AF02FC.5060109@unc.edu>

Baypiggies:

This is an announcement from your sister Python group in North Carolina.

We're bringing a very big Zope 3 Boot Camp to the U.S. March 10-13, 2007:

http://trizpug.org/boot-camp/camp5/

We hope some of you can participate.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.seacoos.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 962-4323
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599




From jim at well.com  Thu Jan 18 07:29:02 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 22:29:02 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] call for speakers
Message-ID: <1de95411d5f9105f8ef1ba7bafa4c325@well.com>


who's up for a talk?

    you know someone who's got an angle on
their (or your) python craft?
    you know a business that's using Python
for development?
Lemme know, please.

jim at well.com


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Jan 18 15:25:34 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:25:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] call for speakers
In-Reply-To: <1de95411d5f9105f8ef1ba7bafa4c325@well.com>
References: <1de95411d5f9105f8ef1ba7bafa4c325@well.com>
Message-ID: <20070118142534.GA17832@panix.com>

On Wed, Jan 17, 2007, jim stockford wrote:
> 
> who's up for a talk?

Anyone going to PyCon and want to practice a talk?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 22 03:10:51 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:10:51 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Equations released under BSD license/ zunzun.com
Message-ID: <BAY131-F34C04B04CE5D65E7E75EAA0AE0@phx.gbl>


[FYI Reposting something useful from scipy list.
http://zunzun.com does online Python-based curve-fitting and 
surface-fitting.
- Stephen]

From: zunzun at zunzun.com
Subject: [SciPy-user] Python Equations released under BSD license
To: SciPy Users List <scipy-user at scipy.org>

The middleware code for http://zunzun.com has been released under
a BSD license at http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonequations/.
The project is a collection of Python equations that can fit
themselves to both 2D and 3D data sets, output source code in
several computing languages and can use an included genetic
algorithm for initial parameter estimation.

Requires SciPy and SciPy's weave module from http://scipy.org.

_________________________________________________________________
Type your favorite song.? Get a customized station.? Try MSN Radio powered 
by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001


From rdm at cfcl.com  Mon Jan 22 17:15:07 2007
From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:15:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beer & Scripting SIG reminder (1/24)
Message-ID: <p06230944c1da925a9a25@[192.168.1.205]>

The Beer & Scripting SIG (http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass) will
take place Wednesday evening, 1/24.  Be there or be elsewhere!

  Note:  The San Francisco Perl Mongers are rejoining
         BASS this month for their monthly meeting, so
         we may have a larger-than-usual crowd.  Kewl!

In case you were wondering, the discussions at BASS gatherings
are not, erm, scripted.  Rather, they reflect the interests of
whatever scripters happen to show up that evening.  One recent
gathering focused on databases (especially PostgreSQL); other
gatherings have discussed the vagaries of doing scripting for
a living, which languages folks like (and why), etc.

Sometimes, folks bring in books that they have recently read,
software that they want to show off, etc.  The informal nature
of the gatherings allows this, as long as it doesn't conflict
with important things like ordering and eating food!


Also note that the calendar of Bay Area Scripting Events is
available and open to submissions (all your BASE are belong
to us :-).

  *  webcal://cfcl.com/pub_dav/BA_Scripting_Groups.ics
  *  http://cfcl.com/pub_dav/BA_Scripting_Groups.ics

and that the list of local scripting groups is online at

  SF Bay Area Scripting Groups
  http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass/groups.php

-r
-- 
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

From jim at well.com  Tue Jan 23 07:16:01 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:16:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking February (and March and April) speakers
Message-ID: <a96920342062fa97663cd1271915a115@well.com>


Call for speakers:

    The BayPiggies speaking schedule is open for the February
8 meeting. The total time available is 75 minutes.  This time
can be split between speakers.
    It's possible Robert Stephenson may present a short talk
and demo of how to use python to control a laser pointer in
a presentation setting to do drawing, special effects, and
other mouse-like behavior.
    Wesley Chun has suggested a pre-pycon talk.

    I would like to solicit any and all potential speakers.  Please
contact me offlist or onlist if you are interested in speaking or
know someone who may be.

jim


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 23 09:52:21 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:52:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking February (and March and April) speakers
In-Reply-To: <a96920342062fa97663cd1271915a115@well.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F21F46241E2798D1DC25841A0AD0@phx.gbl>


* Ken Seehart had expressed interest in presenting a snippet from January?
There seemed to be support for aiming to regularly *briefly* present
1/2 snippets at the start of each meeting, before the main activity.
(I forget did Drew mention something as well?)

* Re Pycon, there were many requests could the folks going (there are at
least 4) contact each other and divide the program among themselves to
figure out who will cover which talks? Probably need to coordinate this 
on-list.

* (Also, for beyond February, I am guessing the Plone mafia might put their 
heads
together about possible future activities. Alexander Limi had touched on
about 100 different interesting or relevant facets about Plone, the 
evolution
of the Plone project, how to write a framework without much coding,
licensing and how to actually make money from open-source - which alone
would be a very worthy topic. Do you want to earmark a date?
March is probably PyCon, but noone has confirmed that.)

* Lastly, I suggested James Phillips (the author of Python Equations and
www.zunzun.com) to speak if he ever comes to visit from Alabama.
This is indefinite and nothing currently planned.

Regards,
Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
Get in the mood for Valentine's Day. View photos, recipes and more on your 
Live.com page. 
http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701


From drewp at bigasterisk.com  Tue Jan 23 16:25:05 2007
From: drewp at bigasterisk.com (Drew Perttula)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:25:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking February (and March and April) speakers
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F21F46241E2798D1DC25841A0AD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY131-F21F46241E2798D1DC25841A0AD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <45B628D1.2060301@bigasterisk.com>

Stephen McInerney wrote:
> * Ken Seehart had expressed interest in presenting a snippet from January?
> There seemed to be support for aiming to regularly *briefly* present
> 1/2 snippets at the start of each meeting, before the main activity.
> (I forget did Drew mention something as well?)
> 

http://drewp.quickwitretort.com/2006/12/25/0

I could demo that and explain how it works.


From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 20:47:11 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:47:11 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking February (and March and April) speakers
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F21F46241E2798D1DC25841A0AD0@phx.gbl>
References: <a96920342062fa97663cd1271915a115@well.com>
	<BAY131-F21F46241E2798D1DC25841A0AD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701231147q4daada3foc4f494a11aa2f83e@mail.gmail.com>

> * Re Pycon, there were many requests could the folks going (there are at
> least 4) contact each other and divide the program among themselves to
> figure out who will cover which talks? Probably need to coordinate this
> on-list.

Here are the talks that I plan on attending.  I don't have very much
flexibility, unfortunately.  I had to pick the talks that best matched
my current position in order to justify the cost of going to my boss.
Of course, you won't hear any complaints from me!

Thursday:
  01:20pm "Testing Tools in Python"

Friday:
  09:00am "Plenary: Keynote 1 - Ivan Krsti?" (for fun)
  10:50am "038 Python, Unicode, and Internationalization"
  11:25am "097 Parsing revisited: a grammar transformation approach to parsing"
  12:00pm "076 Using Stackless"
  01:45pm "066 WSGI: An Introduction"
  02:35pm "036 Web Frameworks Panel"
  04:15pm "049 Iterators in Action"
  04:50pm "059 Creating games with Pygame on the GP2X" (for fun)

Saturday:
  10:50am "087 Scaling Python for High-Load Web Sites"
  11:40am "021 Testing Tools Panel"
  02:05pm "040 Embedding Little Languages in Python"
  02:40pm "027 Distributing your project with Python Eggs"
  03:15pm "101 Embedding Jython applications in a Firefox Extension"
  04:05pm "012 The Star Schema in Python - Analysis and Reporting without
    Overheads"
  04:40pm "050 Interactive Parallel and Distributed Computing with IPython"
  05:55pm "Plenary: Lightning Talks (Sat PM)"

Sunday:
  11:25am "083 You vs. The Real World: Writing Tests With Fixtures"
  12:00pm "031 The Wonderful World of Widgets for the Web"
  01:30pm "085 The Essentials of Stackless Python"
  02:05pm "005 twill, scotch, and figleaf -- tools for testing"
  02:40pm "094 Software Development with Trac"
  03:30pm "046 Packaging Python apps for Linux Distributions"
  04:25pm "Plenary: Lightning Talks + Closing Address (Sun PM)"

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 20:49:43 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:49:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking February (and March and April) speakers
In-Reply-To: <45B628D1.2060301@bigasterisk.com>
References: <BAY131-F21F46241E2798D1DC25841A0AD0@phx.gbl>
	<45B628D1.2060301@bigasterisk.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701231149y25e4f506we847d61472ae71ad@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/23/07, Drew Perttula <drewp at bigasterisk.com> wrote:
> Stephen McInerney wrote:
> > * Ken Seehart had expressed interest in presenting a snippet from January?
> > There seemed to be support for aiming to regularly *briefly* present
> > 1/2 snippets at the start of each meeting, before the main activity.
> > (I forget did Drew mention something as well?)
>
> http://drewp.quickwitretort.com/2006/12/25/0
>
> I could demo that and explain how it works.

+1!

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From wescpy at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 23:39:11 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:39:11 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking February (and March and April) speakers
In-Reply-To: <a96920342062fa97663cd1271915a115@well.com>
References: <a96920342062fa97663cd1271915a115@well.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580701231439k3d301b75yf35a19a9b53bf58c@mail.gmail.com>

>     Wesley Chun has suggested a pre-pycon talk.

historically, Feb has been the prep-PyCon speakers session given those
delivering talks at the conference a chance to rehearse in front of a
live studio audience.  Mar would be the wrap-up.  We also have a
wrap-up for OSCON in Aug.  Since there are fewer Python talks at
OSCON, a warm-up in Jul has not been necessary.

we should plan on having 1 or 2 newbies nights where regular attendees
can bring someone to "assimilate" into the Python community.  such
nights typically consist of a pair of volunteers, one to talk, and the
other to be on a computer demonstrating the current topic.

since some folks have asked for more "educational"-type talks, i have
a bunch of 1-hr lectures already prepared (taken from the various
Python courses or conference tutorials i give) and can deliver them at
nearly a moment's notice. i know the topics are boring to many of you
old-timers, but if you're new to those areas of development, they are
a great place to get started.

- what is python? (language overview)
- network programming with sockets
- internet client programming (using the FTP, NNTP, POP3, SMTP client
library modules)
- intro to web/cgi programming
- programming microsoft office (win32 COM clients)
- extending python in C
- misc assorted stuff on functions, functional programming,
exceptions, iterators, generators, etc.

as far as PyCon goes, i haven't decided on which talks i'm going to
yet.  we can figure out who went to what when we return... thx JJ for
your list.  if anyone is still interested in going, American is having
a fare sale -- it appears that going out is easy, but getting back is
the challenge; nevertheless, here's the link in case you're
interested:

https://www.aa.com/apps/netSAAver/ViewNetSAAverFareSalesDetail.jhtml?saleId=1813&fileName=Dallas.Ft.Worth.Sale.10.19.06.xml

contact me privately if you need a ride to the conference from DFW.
i'm arriving thursday evening around 8:30pm and have a rental car.
the same goes for returning sunday nite... i leave for the airport at
4:45-5pm.  i'll do anything for a donation since, unlike JJ, i
couldn't convince my employer to help fund my trip! LOL

cheers,
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From paul.lucas at rexandco.com  Wed Jan 24 00:55:38 2007
From: paul.lucas at rexandco.com (Paul Lucas)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:55:38 -0500
Subject: [Baypiggies] Sr Python Engineer at Rex
Message-ID: <76813B8BD54FE740B0426E59459405420514AD34@MAIL007.mail.lan>

We are looking for a talented python engineer that enjoys software
engineering. The candidate should be a senior developer with 7-10 years
of overall experience - with a recent focus on Python and Django.  In
this role you will create python web applications, interpret use cases,
write unit tests, and create design documentation. You will be customer
focused, believe in agile process methodologies, and practice pragmatic
programming. The position is onsite, fulltime. Full description below.
If you are interested please contact me at: paul.lucas at rexandco.com


Responsibilities
- Design and develop features for web based applications
- Design, develop, and consume web service APIs
- Interpret business use cases
- Build software to integrate with external systems
- Work with software engineering team to guide technical
  direction of our internal systems

Required Skills 
- python experience
- web based application development
- Database skills - should be able to write queries, joins, create and
design simple tables
- Strong build and release engineering skills branching, tagging
- Able to write and interpret effective cases
- Experience with or strong knowledge of one of the following process
methodologies - agile, XP, or scrum
- Strong testing skills - functional testing, unit testing, performance
testing

Plus
- Experience in financial services, mortgage systems, MISMO standards
- Experience in real estate investing, mortgage principles
- XML technologies - web services, REST, SOAP, XSLT
- Experience with Django framework
 
 
Paul Lucas
Director, Engineering
REX&CO.
paul.lucas at rexandco.com 
 

From jim at well.com  Wed Jan 24 06:59:08 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 21:59:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking February (and March and April) speakers
In-Reply-To: <45B628D1.2060301@bigasterisk.com>
References: <BAY131-F21F46241E2798D1DC25841A0AD0@phx.gbl>
	<45B628D1.2060301@bigasterisk.com>
Message-ID: <bcd6f7d54d1274ff340135a1b7c02a30@well.com>


that would be great. what do we need to
set up for you?
jim


On Jan 23, 2007, at 7:25 AM, Drew Perttula wrote:

> Stephen McInerney wrote:
>> * Ken Seehart had expressed interest in presenting a snippet from 
>> January?
>> There seemed to be support for aiming to regularly *briefly* present
>> 1/2 snippets at the start of each meeting, before the main activity.
>> (I forget did Drew mention something as well?)
>
> http://drewp.quickwitretort.com/2006/12/25/0
>
> I could demo that and explain how it works.
>


From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 21:05:55 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:05:55 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701241205u3a4456abu2b92a8ec521cc1bd@mail.gmail.com>

Hey everyone,

Aahz has "passed on the torch" of mailing list moderator to me.  As my
first official duty, I'd like to sincerely thank him for all his hard
work.  It's often said that being a mailing list moderator is a
thankless job--the same people who complain about your policies are
the ones you are in charge of protecting from bounced messages, spam,
etc.  I'd like to thank Aahz for all the junk email I never even knew
existed ;)

I'm also excited about the speakers that Jim Stockford is busily
lining up for our enjoyment this year.  All in all, I'm looking
forward to another fun year!

Now, I have a question for you.  Many members of this group would like
to have a moderated baypiggies-announce mailing list.  Indeed, the
volume on the normal baypiggies mailing list can occasionally become
burdensome.

I propose:

* We create a moderated baypiggies-announce mailing list.  Job
postings would not be welcome here.  In fact, it would be used only
for baypiggies meeting announcements and perhaps announcements for
other Python-related meetings.

* The current baypiggies list could remain a place for Python
discussion, a *small* amount of Python job posts (still requiring that
the jobs be for Python and in the Bay Area), meeting planning, etc.
I'd also like to see mail from the baypiggies-announce mailing list
automatically forwarded to the baypiggies list so that people only
have to subscribe to one or the other; it can be burdensome to have to
subscribe to too many lists.

Now, I have a reasonable fear that this discussion can quickly grow
out of hand, so please respond with simply:

* A number from -1 (hate it) to +1 (love it) signifying your opinion.

* An optional reason for your opinion.

* An optional alternate idea.

In IETF style, I'd like to make a decision based on rough consensus
among members who are familiar with one another rather than a formal
vote.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From webmaven at cox.net  Wed Jan 24 21:47:57 2007
From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:47:57 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701241205u3a4456abu2b92a8ec521cc1bd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701241205u3a4456abu2b92a8ec521cc1bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1169671678.10216.76.camel@workshop>

On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 12:05 -0800, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> * The current baypiggies list could remain a place for Python
> discussion, a *small* amount of Python job posts (still requiring that
> the jobs be for Python and in the Bay Area), 

Are you proposing to relax the requirement that job postings be from an
employer, instead of a recruiter?

- Michael R. Bernstein
  michaelbernstein.com
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070124/019427cb/attachment.pgp 

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 22:25:23 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:25:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <1169671678.10216.76.camel@workshop>
References: <c41f67b90701241205u3a4456abu2b92a8ec521cc1bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<1169671678.10216.76.camel@workshop>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701241325q45bdb7edufb1ae74393ecd0b2@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/24/07, Michael Bernstein <webmaven at cox.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 12:05 -0800, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> > * The current baypiggies list could remain a place for Python
> > discussion, a *small* amount of Python job posts (still requiring that
> > the jobs be for Python and in the Bay Area),
>
> Are you proposing to relax the requirement that job postings be from an
> employer, instead of a recruiter?

That was not my intention.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From max at theslimmers.net  Wed Jan 24 23:02:26 2007
From: max at theslimmers.net (Max Slimmer)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:02:26 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701241205u3a4456abu2b92a8ec521cc1bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200701242202.l0OM2UFm005512@a.mail.sonic.net>

Personaly I don't need another list to subscribe to but as long as it would
be included in the standard list, I guess it would allow people to avoid
some of the noise on paypiggies list, though it isn't that busy either.  No
objection, but to me whats the point, I would want content of both.

max 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: baypiggies-bounces+max=theslimmers.net at python.org 
> [mailto:baypiggies-bounces+max=theslimmers.net at python.org] On 
> Behalf Of Shannon -jj Behrens
> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:06 PM
> To: Python
> Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
> 
> Hey everyone,
> 
> Aahz has "passed on the torch" of mailing list moderator to 
> me.  As my first official duty, I'd like to sincerely thank 
> him for all his hard work.  It's often said that being a 
> mailing list moderator is a thankless job--the same people 
> who complain about your policies are the ones you are in 
> charge of protecting from bounced messages, spam, etc.  I'd 
> like to thank Aahz for all the junk email I never even knew existed ;)
> 
> I'm also excited about the speakers that Jim Stockford is 
> busily lining up for our enjoyment this year.  All in all, 
> I'm looking forward to another fun year!
> 
> Now, I have a question for you.  Many members of this group 
> would like to have a moderated baypiggies-announce mailing 
> list.  Indeed, the volume on the normal baypiggies mailing 
> list can occasionally become burdensome.
> 
> I propose:
> 
> * We create a moderated baypiggies-announce mailing list.  
> Job postings would not be welcome here.  In fact, it would be 
> used only for baypiggies meeting announcements and perhaps 
> announcements for other Python-related meetings.
> 
> * The current baypiggies list could remain a place for Python 
> discussion, a *small* amount of Python job posts (still 
> requiring that the jobs be for Python and in the Bay Area), 
> meeting planning, etc.
> I'd also like to see mail from the baypiggies-announce 
> mailing list automatically forwarded to the baypiggies list 
> so that people only have to subscribe to one or the other; it 
> can be burdensome to have to subscribe to too many lists.
> 
> Now, I have a reasonable fear that this discussion can 
> quickly grow out of hand, so please respond with simply:
> 
> * A number from -1 (hate it) to +1 (love it) signifying your opinion.
> 
> * An optional reason for your opinion.
> 
> * An optional alternate idea.
> 
> In IETF style, I'd like to make a decision based on rough 
> consensus among members who are familiar with one another 
> rather than a formal vote.
> 
> Best Regards,
> -jj
> 
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 


From eric at ericwalstad.com  Wed Jan 24 23:18:06 2007
From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:18:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <200701242202.l0OM2UFm005512@a.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200701242202.l0OM2UFm005512@a.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <45B7DB1E.5090501@ericwalstad.com>

>> I propose:
>>
>> * We create a moderated baypiggies-announce mailing list.
+1

Thanks Aahz for your fantastic work over the years.
Thanks JJ for taking on the extra work; kids, family, work, piggies...Whew!

From DennisR at dair.com  Wed Jan 24 23:55:13 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:55:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701241205u3a4456abu2b92a8ec521cc1bd@mail.gmail.co
 m>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070124144525.00bed120@localhost>

At 12:05 PM 1/24/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>Hey everyone,
>
>In fact, it would be used only
>for baypiggies meeting announcements

0.  What about request for speakers?  I think there are official 
communications which should go to everybody.  See below for what I think is 
a better plan.  I plan to subscribe to entire list so this is a zero for me.

>and perhaps announcements for
>other Python-related meetings.

-1 Many Python-related meetings are quasi-commercial.

>I'd also like to see mail from the baypiggies-announce mailing list
>automatically forwarded to the baypiggies list so that people only
>have to subscribe to one or the other; it can be burdensome to have to
>subscribe to too many lists.
>
>* An optional alternate idea.

Since people making postings would have to subscribe to an alternate list 
to post, just keep the current single list and have posters put [ANN] in 
the subject line for announcements.  Subscribers can filter or not filter 
as they see fit.

Do nothing is another viable alternative because there will inevitably be 
subject line or list posting mistakes.

Regards, Dennis


  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From annaraven at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 00:03:27 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:03:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701241205u3a4456abu2b92a8ec521cc1bd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701241205u3a4456abu2b92a8ec521cc1bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610701241503o15a7e4f2x7ccd652d10854bb3@mail.gmail.com>

+1
I've seen this structure before and it works well.

Thank you to Aahz!
Thank you to Shannon!

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!

From asheesh at asheesh.org  Wed Jan 24 21:19:48 2007
From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:19:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701241205u3a4456abu2b92a8ec521cc1bd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701241205u3a4456abu2b92a8ec521cc1bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.0.81.0701241513220.21145@alchemy>

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> I'd like to thank Aahz for all the junk email I never even knew existed

aahz++ indeed!

> I propose
[snip]

+0.7.  It would be +1 only I took off 0.3 because I'd have to subscribe to 
yet another email list.  But that would be okay, because then I could 
always know if the baypiggies list became too much traffic for me, I could 
still get meeting announcements.

Also, I'm not in the Bay Area again until July or so, so feel free to 
weight my vote appropriately.

-- Asheesh.

-- 
You have the capacity to learn from mistakes.  You'll learn a lot today.

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Thu Jan 25 05:48:03 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 20:48:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
Message-ID: <20070125044806.214471E4007@bag.python.org>


----- On Wednesday, January 24, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:

> Hey everyone,
> 
> Aahz has "passed on the torch" of mailing list moderator to me.  As my
> first official duty, I'd like to sincerely thank him for all his hard
> work.  It's often said that being a mailing list moderator is a
> thankless job--the same people who complain about your policies are
> the ones you are in charge of protecting from bounced messages, spam,
> etc.  I'd like to thank Aahz for all the junk email I never even knew
> existed ;)
> 

Yes, thank you Aahz!  It's a difficult job that lays you open to lots of criticism.   And thank you JJ for braving it.

Now I have someone new to whine at so I won't always be picking on Aahz. :^)

> I'm also excited about the speakers that Jim Stockford is busily
> lining up for our enjoyment this year.  All in all, I'm looking
> forward to another fun year!

Yep, looking promising.

> 
> Now, I have a question for you.  Many members of this group would like
> to have a moderated baypiggies-announce mailing list.  Indeed, the
> volume on the normal baypiggies mailing list can occasionally become
> burdensome.
> 
> I propose:
> 
> * We create a moderated baypiggies-announce mailing list.  Job
> postings would not be welcome here.  In fact, it would be used only
> for baypiggies meeting announcements and perhaps announcements for
> other Python-related meetings.
> 
> * The current baypiggies list could remain a place for Python
> discussion, a *small* amount of Python job posts (still requiring that
> the jobs be for Python and in the Bay Area), meeting planning, etc.
> I'd also like to see mail from the baypiggies-announce mailing list
> automatically forwarded to the baypiggies list so that people only
> have to subscribe to one or the other; it can be burdensome to have to
> subscribe to too many lists.

+1

This is a great solution.  If we like how things are, then we do nothing and everything remains the same for us.  If we are tired of all the traffic, we can unsub here and sub to the new list instead.

Seems like a total win, JJ.

Thanks,

Marilyn

> 
> Now, I have a reasonable fear that this discussion can quickly grow
> out of hand, so please respond with simply:
> 
> * A number from -1 (hate it) to +1 (love it) signifying your opinion.
> 
> * An optional reason for your opinion.
> 
> * An optional alternate idea.
> 
> In IETF style, I'd like to make a decision based on rough consensus
> among members who are familiar with one another rather than a formal
> vote.
> 
> Best Regards,
> -jj
> 
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From mikeyp at brown-fox.com  Thu Jan 25 21:08:30 2007
From: mikeyp at brown-fox.com (Michael Pittaro)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:08:30 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Well funded start-up with experienced management team
 seeks Python programmers
Message-ID: <45B90E3E.2000908@brown-fox.com>

Hi,

We are looking for programmers to work on a an innovative a new
open source enterprise solution. The full job description is below.
Our primary development language is Python.  

If you are interested, you can reply to: jobs at brown-fox.com, or 
contact me directly at: mikeyp at brown-fox.com

mike


Peninsula-based start-up seeks top programmers to help design and
implement an innovative a new open source enterprise solution.  We're
looking for smart, talented and energetic designers looking for a chance
to change the landscape of enterprise software. This high-impact
position will be part of a small team that designs and implements the
company's flagship product.

Requirements:

- BS/MS in CS/EE with excellent academic background
- Excellent software design and programming skill
- 3 or more yrs product development experience 
- Experience with server side web infrastructure and technologies
- Proficient in XML processing techniques and web services
  communications standards 
- Familiarity with open source community process
- Excellent written and verbal communications skills
- Experience with Oracle and other major databases a plus

The ideal candidate is a high energy entrepreneurial individual that
works well when part of a small focused team.  Someone that is looking
for a start-up that offers the opportunity to solve interesting
technical problems and deliver innovative solutions that will transform
an industry.  

If you're looking for the chance to make major contributions to a
company's success and rapidly advance your career in a friendly,
intellectually challenging environment, we might be exactly what you're
looking for.

Compensation: Competitive salary and options plus benefits.

Principals only






From harrington_chad at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 25 22:30:23 2007
From: harrington_chad at hotmail.com (Chad Harrington)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:30:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.58.1169722831.12924.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV10C61E85121E9FF03D10EC82A30@phx.gbl>

> I propose:

> * We create a moderated baypiggies-announce mailing list.  Job
> postings would not be welcome here.  In fact, it would be used only
> for baypiggies meeting announcements and perhaps announcements for
> other Python-related meetings.

> * The current baypiggies list could remain a place for Python
> discussion, a *small* amount of Python job posts (still requiring that
> the jobs be for Python and in the Bay Area), meeting planning, etc.

+1 on this proposal above.  I have a separate proposal:

I think a separate baypiggies-jobs list would be the best solution to the
jobs issue.  90+% of BayPiggies members aren't looking for jobs and would be
annoyed by lots of job posts. The remaining 10% are looking for work and
would likely welcome a large number of jobs.

If you are looking for a job, you subscribe to the jobs list.  If not, you
don't.  Seems like the simplest policy.  There is no value in having job
listings go to the 90% who don't want them.

Do others agree?

Chad Harrington
harrington_chad at hotmail.com



From ylchobe at gmail.com  Fri Jan 26 00:07:16 2007
From: ylchobe at gmail.com (Yogesh Chobe)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:07:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV10C61E85121E9FF03D10EC82A30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.58.1169722831.12924.baypiggies@python.org>
	<BAY133-DAV10C61E85121E9FF03D10EC82A30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <a009dcab0701251507t7ae33d94g383c6308567084ea@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/25/07, Chad Harrington <harrington_chad at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I propose:

> I think a separate baypiggies-jobs list would be the best solution to the
> jobs issue.  90+% of BayPiggies members aren't looking for jobs and would be
> annoyed by lots of job posts. The remaining 10% are looking for work and
> would likely welcome a large number of jobs.
>
> If you are looking for a job, you subscribe to the jobs list.  If not, you
> don't.  Seems like the simplest policy.  There is no value in having job
> listings go to the 90% who don't want them.
>
> Do others agree?

+1

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 26 00:08:55 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:08:55 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV10C61E85121E9FF03D10EC82A30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.58.1169722831.12924.baypiggies@python.org>
	<BAY133-DAV10C61E85121E9FF03D10EC82A30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0701251508w11fbb680l351b88d3b268757c@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I think a separate baypiggies-jobs list would be the best solution to the
> jobs issue.  90+% of BayPiggies members aren't looking for jobs and would
> be
> annoyed by lots of job posts. The remaining 10% are looking for work and
> would likely welcome a large number of jobs.
>
> If you are looking for a job, you subscribe to the jobs list.  If not, you
> don't.  Seems like the simplest policy.  There is no value in having job
> listings go to the 90% who don't want them.
>
> Do others agree?
>
>
+1
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070125/bfa37c58/attachment.html 

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 26 00:48:30 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:48:30 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SciPy '07 Conference - Aug/Sept, Pasadena, CA
Message-ID: <BAY131-F1714C73084D1C134332FF9A0A30@phx.gbl>

[repost from scipy-user list and Newsgroups: 
gmane.comp.python.scientific.user ]

(Robert - can you put up a page on http://www.scipy.org/ ? )
(Donna - can we link to that page from a Conference links page on 
baypiggies.net?)

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.scientific.user/10368/match=07

From: Robert Kern
Subject: Re: SciPy '07 Conference?
Date: 2007-01-24

David L Goldsmith wrote:
>Any news?  If/when dates/place are determined, they'll be announced here, 
>yes?  (I.e., not just posted on the Web site.)

We don't really start planning until April or so. Yes, we will make
announcements here. The conference will (almost certainly) be held at 
Caltech in
Pasadena, CA and will probably (with less certainty) be somewhere in late 
August
or September.

--
Robert Kern

_________________________________________________________________
Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into 
something more. 
http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Jan 26 01:19:11 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:19:11 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
Message-ID: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>


----- On Thursday, January 25, 2007 ylchobe at gmail.com wrote:

> On 1/25/07, Chad Harrington  wrote:
>> > I propose:
> 
>> I think a separate baypiggies-jobs list would be the best solution to the
>> jobs issue.  90+% of BayPiggies members aren't looking for jobs and would be
>> annoyed by lots of job posts. The remaining 10% are looking for work and
>> would likely welcome a large number of jobs.
>>
>> If you are looking for a job, you subscribe to the jobs list.  If not, you
>> don't.  Seems like the simplest policy.  There is no value in having job
>> listings go to the 90% who don't want them.
>>

Just to clarify, the proposed job list will not have discussion or announcements, just jobs, right?

Then, JJ will have to be very hard-nosed about job-postings, *no* job-postings on this list, but he can send them to the job list.

If this is ok with JJ, who will have to be the cop, then:

+1 

from me.

Marilyn

>> Do others agree?
> 
> +1
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jan 26 02:43:13 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:43:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/25/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
>
> ----- On Thursday, January 25, 2007 ylchobe at gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On 1/25/07, Chad Harrington  wrote:
> >> > I propose:
> >
> >> I think a separate baypiggies-jobs list would be the best solution to the
> >> jobs issue.  90+% of BayPiggies members aren't looking for jobs and would be
> >> annoyed by lots of job posts. The remaining 10% are looking for work and
> >> would likely welcome a large number of jobs.
> >>
> >> If you are looking for a job, you subscribe to the jobs list.  If not, you
> >> don't.  Seems like the simplest policy.  There is no value in having job
> >> listings go to the 90% who don't want them.
> >>
>
> Just to clarify, the proposed job list will not have discussion or announcements, just jobs, right?
>
> Then, JJ will have to be very hard-nosed about job-postings, *no* job-postings on this list, but he can send them to the job list.
>
> If this is ok with JJ, who will have to be the cop, then:
>
> +1
>
> from me.

+1 from me

This is a summary of what I'm hearing:

baypiggies-announce would contain:
  * Meeting announcements for *just* BayPiggies.
  * Reminders that we need speakers if we get low.

baypiggies would contain:
  * All of the above.
  * Plus general Python chatter.
  * People organizing the talks can use this list or break into
private email as they feel is appropriate.

baypiggies-jobs would contain:
  * Python job postings.  The requirements would be a bit looser.
That is, recruiters would be allowed.  Jobs outside the Bay Area would
be allowed if relocation expenses were included or if the work could
be done from the Bay Area.

Do we have rough consensus?

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jan 26 03:04:54 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:04:54 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070126020454.GA18785@panix.com>

On Thu, Jan 25, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> baypiggies-jobs would contain:
>   * Python job postings.  The requirements would be a bit looser.
> That is, recruiters would be allowed.  Jobs outside the Bay Area would
> be allowed if relocation expenses were included or if the work could
> be done from the Bay Area.

If you loosen the requirements, you'll need to make this a moderated
mailing list or otherwise do something to keep the spam out.  Trust me,
the tight lid on job ads for BayPIGgies had little to do with the volume,
there have been too many other venues for job ads destroyed by idiots and
vandals.

For that reason, unless you really want to add post moderation to your
list of tasks, I think there's not much point in another mailing list.
Nobody is complaining about the volume of jobs currently on BayPIGgies,
and I think the jobs that people want that aren't allowed on this list
are available elsewhere.  Hrm, maybe the people wanting more job ads
should have the fun of moderating that list?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From jim at well.com  Fri Jan 26 02:59:12 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:59:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>


    what happened to baypiggies-admin?
    I'd like that--for behind-the-scenes coordination
(e.g. explanations of how to get speakers, can
someone provide a {microphone,cable,pointer,...}).


On Jan 25, 2007, at 5:43 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> On 1/25/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
>>
>> ----- On Thursday, January 25, 2007 ylchobe at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/25/07, Chad Harrington  wrote:
>>>>> I propose:
>>>
>>>> I think a separate baypiggies-jobs list would be the best solution 
>>>> to the
>>>> jobs issue.  90+% of BayPiggies members aren't looking for jobs and 
>>>> would be
>>>> annoyed by lots of job posts. The remaining 10% are looking for 
>>>> work and
>>>> would likely welcome a large number of jobs.
>>>>
>>>> If you are looking for a job, you subscribe to the jobs list.  If 
>>>> not, you
>>>> don't.  Seems like the simplest policy.  There is no value in 
>>>> having job
>>>> listings go to the 90% who don't want them.
>>>>
>>
>> Just to clarify, the proposed job list will not have discussion or 
>> announcements, just jobs, right?
>>
>> Then, JJ will have to be very hard-nosed about job-postings, *no* 
>> job-postings on this list, but he can send them to the job list.
>>
>> If this is ok with JJ, who will have to be the cop, then:
>>
>> +1
>>
>> from me.
>
> +1 from me
>
> This is a summary of what I'm hearing:
>
> baypiggies-announce would contain:
>   * Meeting announcements for *just* BayPiggies.
>   * Reminders that we need speakers if we get low.
>
> baypiggies would contain:
>   * All of the above.
>   * Plus general Python chatter.
>   * People organizing the talks can use this list or break into
> private email as they feel is appropriate.
>
> baypiggies-jobs would contain:
>   * Python job postings.  The requirements would be a bit looser.
> That is, recruiters would be allowed.  Jobs outside the Bay Area would
> be allowed if relocation expenses were included or if the work could
> be done from the Bay Area.
>
> Do we have rough consensus?
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
> -- 
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Jan 26 03:15:37 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:15:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
Message-ID: <20070126021540.ABD821E4015@bag.python.org>


----- On Thursday, January 25, 2007 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 25, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>>
>> baypiggies-jobs would contain:
>>   * Python job postings.  The requirements would be a bit looser.
>> That is, recruiters would be allowed.  Jobs outside the Bay Area would
>> be allowed if relocation expenses were included or if the work could
>> be done from the Bay Area.
> 
> If you loosen the requirements, you'll need to make this a moderated
> mailing list or otherwise do something to keep the spam out.  Trust me,
> the tight lid on job ads for BayPIGgies had little to do with the volume,
> there have been too many other venues for job ads destroyed by idiots and
> vandals.

Right you are.  We are probably protected from almost all spam because only members can post.

Or, were we thinking that headhunters would join the jobs list to post?

I change my vote to:

0

And, on Jim's request, I hope everyone votes as I do:

+1

We ought to give him whatever he wants.  But I wonder if it makes sense to have our meeting coordinator be the moderator of that list -- but only if you want to, Jim.

Marilyn

> 
> For that reason, unless you really want to add post moderation to your
> list of tasks, I think there's not much point in another mailing list.
> Nobody is complaining about the volume of jobs currently on BayPIGgies,
> and I think the jobs that people want that aren't allowed on this list
> are available elsewhere.  Hrm, maybe the people wanting more job ads
> should have the fun of moderating that list?
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)                    http://www.pythoncraft.com/
> 
> "I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Jan 26 03:18:09 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:18:09 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070125181101.00beb898@localhost>

At 05:43 PM 1/25/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>Do we have rough consensus?

+1 Worth a try.  I also echo Jim's question that baypiggies-admin may be 
useful.

Regards, Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From daniel at brightfire.com  Fri Jan 26 16:35:32 2007
From: daniel at brightfire.com (Daniel Lord)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:35:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
Message-ID: <2ad40b840701260735j166b8e8ak6f36b5b33eeead03@mail.gmail.com>

> If you loosen the requirements, you'll need to make this a moderated
> mailing list or otherwise do something to keep the spam out.  Trust me,
> the tight lid on job ads for BayPIGgies had little to do with the volume,
> there have been too many other venues for job ads destroyed by idiots and
> vandals.

Let's think 'ouside the box' to risk a cliche. Why assume we have to
loosen requirements?
I can think of two ideas that might be feasible:

1. What if recruiters become a class of member with certain guidelines
on posting and if they abuse it--we revoke their membership. So only
members can still post and list control is as tight as ever.

2. The other possibility is to issue recrutiers a token they have to
include in their post or it is rejected. It the token is abused, it is
revoked. A recruiter gets a limited number of tokens (a simple MD5
hash stored in an sqlite db might suffice) before being permanently
banned from posting.

If the membership majority wants recruiting posts, I'd suggest
something along the line of the above to control them. It will take a
bit more effort for moderation. I will volunteer to help out.

Daniel Lord

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Sat Jan 27 00:35:43 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:35:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New Lists
Message-ID: <20070126233546.8B0F11E4008@bag.python.org>

Hi,

I want to suggest that instead of baypiggies-xxxx at python.org, that the new lists' names be shortened to bp-xxxx at python.org for 2 reasons:

1.  Long names take up too much space on the subject line.

2.  Those of us who are uncomfortable with the "piggie" name, can think of ourselves as the Bay Python group.

Just to remind you, we ran a poll about the current name last year and 18 of 51 voters thought the name bad enough to warrant renaming the group.  That's 35%!  That's huge.

Here are results of that poll:

 Number of Voters                   Subject  Poll Type          Result  Summary

  51                           Change name?  Public   [-1,1]     [18/29] 0.62:1

bp-xxxx at python.org would be a nice gesture to the 18 of us.

What do you think?

Marilyn



From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Jan 27 00:44:08 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:44:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New Lists
In-Reply-To: <20070126233546.8B0F11E4008@bag.python.org>
References: <20070126233546.8B0F11E4008@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701261544k7688debbr2fe5fe09e92a2752@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/26/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I want to suggest that instead of baypiggies-xxxx at python.org, that the new lists' names be shortened to bp-xxxx at python.org for 2 reasons:
>
> 1.  Long names take up too much space on the subject line.
>
> 2.  Those of us who are uncomfortable with the "piggie" name, can think of ourselves as the Bay Python group.
>
> Just to remind you, we ran a poll about the current name last year and 18 of 51 voters thought the name bad enough to warrant renaming the group.  That's 35%!  That's huge.
>
> Here are results of that poll:
>
>  Number of Voters                   Subject  Poll Type          Result  Summary
>
>   51                           Change name?  Public   [-1,1]     [18/29] 0.62:1
>
> bp-xxxx at python.org would be a nice gesture to the 18 of us.
>
> What do you think?

I thought this might come up ;)

The one *major* downside, of course, is that it will be inconvenient
for many people to learn and filter for a new address.  My current
suggestions don't involve any work for people who don't want things to
change.  I suggest we not get bogged down or overload the mailing list
any more this week.  Hence, I propose we punt this discussion until
next Wednesday.  I have calendared it in, but feel free to remind me
if it seems that I've forgotten.

Let's finish the existing questions that I've proposed before tackling
the next question.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Sat Jan 27 00:44:29 2007
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:44:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New Lists
In-Reply-To: <20070126233546.8B0F11E4008@bag.python.org>
References: <20070126233546.8B0F11E4008@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <8540148a0701261544s47fe6b1encc99688d6da90148@mail.gmail.com>

-1

How will I know if british petrolium's trying to spam me..?

-Bill

On 1/26/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I want to suggest that instead of baypiggies-xxxx at python.org, that the new lists' names be shortened to bp-xxxx at python.org for 2 reasons:
>
> 1.  Long names take up too much space on the subject line.
>
> 2.  Those of us who are uncomfortable with the "piggie" name, can think of ourselves as the Bay Python group.
>
> Just to remind you, we ran a poll about the current name last year and 18 of 51 voters thought the name bad enough to warrant renaming the group.  That's 35%!  That's huge.
>
> Here are results of that poll:
>
>  Number of Voters                   Subject  Poll Type          Result  Summary
>
>   51                           Change name?  Public   [-1,1]     [18/29] 0.62:1
>
> bp-xxxx at python.org would be a nice gesture to the 18 of us.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Marilyn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Jan 27 00:53:09 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:53:09 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <20070126020454.GA18785@panix.com>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070126020454.GA18785@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701261553t3d61045ak495095f60b3dfc9c@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/25/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >
> > baypiggies-jobs would contain:
> >   * Python job postings.  The requirements would be a bit looser.
> > That is, recruiters would be allowed.  Jobs outside the Bay Area would
> > be allowed if relocation expenses were included or if the work could
> > be done from the Bay Area.
>
> If you loosen the requirements, you'll need to make this a moderated
> mailing list or otherwise do something to keep the spam out.  Trust me,
> the tight lid on job ads for BayPIGgies had little to do with the volume,
> there have been too many other venues for job ads destroyed by idiots and
> vandals.
>
> For that reason, unless you really want to add post moderation to your
> list of tasks, I think there's not much point in another mailing list.
> Nobody is complaining about the volume of jobs currently on BayPIGgies,
> and I think the jobs that people want that aren't allowed on this list
> are available elsewhere.  Hrm, maybe the people wanting more job ads
> should have the fun of moderating that list?

I did plan on making it a moderated list.

Thanks,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Jan 27 00:54:18 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:54:18 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701261554o4bd34f3fudca718e8bee16403@mail.gmail.com>

I fear that it may be too many mailing lists for too few people.  I do
like the idea of old timers being able to stick to just one mailing
list.

Best Regards,
-jj

On 1/25/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>     what happened to baypiggies-admin?
>     I'd like that--for behind-the-scenes coordination
> (e.g. explanations of how to get speakers, can
> someone provide a {microphone,cable,pointer,...}).
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2007, at 5:43 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> > On 1/25/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> ----- On Thursday, January 25, 2007 ylchobe at gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 1/25/07, Chad Harrington  wrote:
> >>>>> I propose:
> >>>
> >>>> I think a separate baypiggies-jobs list would be the best solution
> >>>> to the
> >>>> jobs issue.  90+% of BayPiggies members aren't looking for jobs and
> >>>> would be
> >>>> annoyed by lots of job posts. The remaining 10% are looking for
> >>>> work and
> >>>> would likely welcome a large number of jobs.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are looking for a job, you subscribe to the jobs list.  If
> >>>> not, you
> >>>> don't.  Seems like the simplest policy.  There is no value in
> >>>> having job
> >>>> listings go to the 90% who don't want them.
> >>>>
> >>
> >> Just to clarify, the proposed job list will not have discussion or
> >> announcements, just jobs, right?
> >>
> >> Then, JJ will have to be very hard-nosed about job-postings, *no*
> >> job-postings on this list, but he can send them to the job list.
> >>
> >> If this is ok with JJ, who will have to be the cop, then:
> >>
> >> +1
> >>
> >> from me.
> >
> > +1 from me
> >
> > This is a summary of what I'm hearing:
> >
> > baypiggies-announce would contain:
> >   * Meeting announcements for *just* BayPiggies.
> >   * Reminders that we need speakers if we get low.
> >
> > baypiggies would contain:
> >   * All of the above.
> >   * Plus general Python chatter.
> >   * People organizing the talks can use this list or break into
> > private email as they feel is appropriate.
> >
> > baypiggies-jobs would contain:
> >   * Python job postings.  The requirements would be a bit looser.
> > That is, recruiters would be allowed.  Jobs outside the Bay Area would
> > be allowed if relocation expenses were included or if the work could
> > be done from the Bay Area.
> >
> > Do we have rough consensus?
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > -jj
> >
> > --
> > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From sesquile at gmail.com  Sat Jan 27 01:43:11 2007
From: sesquile at gmail.com (m h)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:43:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701261554o4bd34f3fudca718e8bee16403@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>
	<c41f67b90701261554o4bd34f3fudca718e8bee16403@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e36b84ee0701261643i7650e076ua967000ee84c17f7@mail.gmail.com>

What about the self categorizing scheme that Denis presented?

[ANN] - in the subject means announcement
[JOB] - means a job post

That way people can get their fill of the fun discussions regarding
group dynamics while filtering out the meaningless drivel such as
announcements and jobs ;)

-matt

ps - The job posts don't really bother me as long as they are
relevant.  It seems that the traffic arguing about posting policies
are far more common anyways.  I'd prefer not to subscribe to another
list.  (So you know where I'm coming from, I'm a lurker on many
mailing lists (40+) and don't always read every message.  I prefer
searching via gmail to sourceforge or other lousy interfaces)

On 1/26/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> I fear that it may be too many mailing lists for too few people.  I do
> like the idea of old timers being able to stick to just one mailing
> list.
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
> On 1/25/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
> >     what happened to baypiggies-admin?
> >     I'd like that--for behind-the-scenes coordination
> > (e.g. explanations of how to get speakers, can
> > someone provide a {microphone,cable,pointer,...}).
> >
> >
> > On Jan 25, 2007, at 5:43 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >
> > > On 1/25/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ----- On Thursday, January 25, 2007 ylchobe at gmail.com wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On 1/25/07, Chad Harrington  wrote:
> > >>>>> I propose:
> > >>>
> > >>>> I think a separate baypiggies-jobs list would be the best solution
> > >>>> to the
> > >>>> jobs issue.  90+% of BayPiggies members aren't looking for jobs and
> > >>>> would be
> > >>>> annoyed by lots of job posts. The remaining 10% are looking for
> > >>>> work and
> > >>>> would likely welcome a large number of jobs.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you are looking for a job, you subscribe to the jobs list.  If
> > >>>> not, you
> > >>>> don't.  Seems like the simplest policy.  There is no value in
> > >>>> having job
> > >>>> listings go to the 90% who don't want them.
> > >>>>
> > >>
> > >> Just to clarify, the proposed job list will not have discussion or
> > >> announcements, just jobs, right?
> > >>
> > >> Then, JJ will have to be very hard-nosed about job-postings, *no*
> > >> job-postings on this list, but he can send them to the job list.
> > >>
> > >> If this is ok with JJ, who will have to be the cop, then:
> > >>
> > >> +1
> > >>
> > >> from me.
> > >
> > > +1 from me
> > >
> > > This is a summary of what I'm hearing:
> > >
> > > baypiggies-announce would contain:
> > >   * Meeting announcements for *just* BayPiggies.
> > >   * Reminders that we need speakers if we get low.
> > >
> > > baypiggies would contain:
> > >   * All of the above.
> > >   * Plus general Python chatter.
> > >   * People organizing the talks can use this list or break into
> > > private email as they feel is appropriate.
> > >
> > > baypiggies-jobs would contain:
> > >   * Python job postings.  The requirements would be a bit looser.
> > > That is, recruiters would be allowed.  Jobs outside the Bay Area would
> > > be allowed if relocation expenses were included or if the work could
> > > be done from the Bay Area.
> > >
> > > Do we have rough consensus?
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > > -jj
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Jan 27 01:52:31 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:52:31 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <e36b84ee0701261643i7650e076ua967000ee84c17f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>
	<c41f67b90701261554o4bd34f3fudca718e8bee16403@mail.gmail.com>
	<e36b84ee0701261643i7650e076ua967000ee84c17f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701261652t5a5b1231jd1f5d05c4997aad7@mail.gmail.com>

I like the idea of using subject prefixes, but I opted against it
because it's too easy to mess up.  I do seem to be hearing a lot of
people saying they don't mind occasional job postings.  Is anyone
going to step up and insist on a separate jobs mailing list?  One
benefit of a separate jobs mailing list is that it can be explicitly
moderated.

Best Regards,
-jj

On 1/26/07, m h <sesquile at gmail.com> wrote:
> What about the self categorizing scheme that Denis presented?
>
> [ANN] - in the subject means announcement
> [JOB] - means a job post
>
> That way people can get their fill of the fun discussions regarding
> group dynamics while filtering out the meaningless drivel such as
> announcements and jobs ;)
>
> -matt
>
> ps - The job posts don't really bother me as long as they are
> relevant.  It seems that the traffic arguing about posting policies
> are far more common anyways.  I'd prefer not to subscribe to another
> list.  (So you know where I'm coming from, I'm a lurker on many
> mailing lists (40+) and don't always read every message.  I prefer
> searching via gmail to sourceforge or other lousy interfaces)
>
> On 1/26/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I fear that it may be too many mailing lists for too few people.  I do
> > like the idea of old timers being able to stick to just one mailing
> > list.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > -jj
> >
> > On 1/25/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
> > >     what happened to baypiggies-admin?
> > >     I'd like that--for behind-the-scenes coordination
> > > (e.g. explanations of how to get speakers, can
> > > someone provide a {microphone,cable,pointer,...}).
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 25, 2007, at 5:43 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 1/25/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- On Thursday, January 25, 2007 ylchobe at gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> On 1/25/07, Chad Harrington  wrote:
> > > >>>>> I propose:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> I think a separate baypiggies-jobs list would be the best solution
> > > >>>> to the
> > > >>>> jobs issue.  90+% of BayPiggies members aren't looking for jobs and
> > > >>>> would be
> > > >>>> annoyed by lots of job posts. The remaining 10% are looking for
> > > >>>> work and
> > > >>>> would likely welcome a large number of jobs.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> If you are looking for a job, you subscribe to the jobs list.  If
> > > >>>> not, you
> > > >>>> don't.  Seems like the simplest policy.  There is no value in
> > > >>>> having job
> > > >>>> listings go to the 90% who don't want them.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > > >> Just to clarify, the proposed job list will not have discussion or
> > > >> announcements, just jobs, right?
> > > >>
> > > >> Then, JJ will have to be very hard-nosed about job-postings, *no*
> > > >> job-postings on this list, but he can send them to the job list.
> > > >>
> > > >> If this is ok with JJ, who will have to be the cop, then:
> > > >>
> > > >> +1
> > > >>
> > > >> from me.
> > > >
> > > > +1 from me
> > > >
> > > > This is a summary of what I'm hearing:
> > > >
> > > > baypiggies-announce would contain:
> > > >   * Meeting announcements for *just* BayPiggies.
> > > >   * Reminders that we need speakers if we get low.
> > > >
> > > > baypiggies would contain:
> > > >   * All of the above.
> > > >   * Plus general Python chatter.
> > > >   * People organizing the talks can use this list or break into
> > > > private email as they feel is appropriate.
> > > >
> > > > baypiggies-jobs would contain:
> > > >   * Python job postings.  The requirements would be a bit looser.
> > > > That is, recruiters would be allowed.  Jobs outside the Bay Area would
> > > > be allowed if relocation expenses were included or if the work could
> > > > be done from the Bay Area.
> > > >
> > > > Do we have rough consensus?
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > > -jj
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Jan 27 02:01:08 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:01:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701261652t5a5b1231jd1f5d05c4997aad7@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <e36b84ee0701261643i7650e076ua967000ee84c17f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>
	<c41f67b90701261554o4bd34f3fudca718e8bee16403@mail.gmail.com>
	<e36b84ee0701261643i7650e076ua967000ee84c17f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070126165746.00bf8d80@localhost>

At 04:52 PM 1/26/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>One benefit of a separate jobs mailing list is that it can be explicitly
>moderated.

One non-benefit of a separate list is that you cannot realistically 
subscribe to a job listing using your employer's computer.  The list 
heading screams out "I AM LOOKING FOR ANOTHER JOB".  If the Python list 
comes in as one undifferentiated stream, you can peruse the lists with no 
real fear of employer snooping.

Dennis


  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Jan 27 02:17:41 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:17:41 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070126165746.00bf8d80@localhost>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>
	<c41f67b90701261554o4bd34f3fudca718e8bee16403@mail.gmail.com>
	<e36b84ee0701261643i7650e076ua967000ee84c17f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070126165746.00bf8d80@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701261717l3efc73d7qca5865574fc93605@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/26/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 04:52 PM 1/26/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >One benefit of a separate jobs mailing list is that it can be explicitly
> >moderated.
>
> One non-benefit of a separate list is that you cannot realistically
> subscribe to a job listing using your employer's computer.  The list
> heading screams out "I AM LOOKING FOR ANOTHER JOB".  If the Python list
> comes in as one undifferentiated stream, you can peruse the lists with no
> real fear of employer snooping.

That's a pretty funny comment coming from you, Dennis ;)  Who exactly
are you afraid of?  Aren't you self employed? ;)

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Jan 27 02:34:36 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:34:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701261717l3efc73d7qca5865574fc93605@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070126165746.00bf8d80@localhost>
	<20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>
	<c41f67b90701261554o4bd34f3fudca718e8bee16403@mail.gmail.com>
	<e36b84ee0701261643i7650e076ua967000ee84c17f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070126165746.00bf8d80@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070126172307.00bf7340@localhost>

At 05:17 PM 1/26/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>On 1/26/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> > At 04:52 PM 1/26/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> > >One benefit of a separate jobs mailing list is that it can be explicitly
> > >moderated.
> >
> > One non-benefit of a separate list is that you cannot realistically
> > subscribe to a job listing using your employer's computer.  The list
> > heading screams out "I AM LOOKING FOR ANOTHER JOB".  If the Python list
> > comes in as one undifferentiated stream, you can peruse the lists with no
> > real fear of employer snooping.
>
>That's a pretty funny comment coming from you, Dennis ;)  Who exactly
>are you afraid of?  Aren't you self employed? ;)

Rather that "being afraid", consider that being self-employed allows me to 
speak freely.  I made this comment on behalf of some who might have an 
interest in looking around but prefer not leaving compromising records on 
employer computers or elsewhere.

Know that I have about 40 years prior experience in being employed and so 
my comments are not made in ignorance of job search environment.

As a sage once said, just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean they 
aren't out to get you  ;-)  FWIW, I did intend my comment to be serious.

Regards, Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From paul at picomobilenet.com  Sat Jan 27 08:51:15 2007
From: paul at picomobilenet.com (Paul A. Lambert)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 23:51:15 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] clogged by meta-list discussions -> was Re: Let's
	welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070126172307.00bf7340@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070126165746.00bf8d80@localhost>
	<20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>
	<c41f67b90701261554o4bd34f3fudca718e8bee16403@mail.gmail.com>
	<e36b84ee0701261643i7650e076ua967000ee84c17f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070126165746.00bf8d80@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070126172307.00bf7340@localhost>
Message-ID: <8EC0F903-4595-4A25-8BFF-BF2D916F8C34@picomobilenet.com>


There is a lot more traffic on these meta-discussions about list  
content then there are job postings or actual useful content.

Suggestion:
  1) allow job posting, but have guidelines that prescribe a well  
defined subject line so they can be filtered
      job posting can be interesting to the broader group in that  
they show where python is being used
  2) quit clogging up what could be a useful mail list by these  
discussions of what should be in the list


Paul






On Jan 26, 2007, at 5:34 PM, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:

> At 05:17 PM 1/26/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>> On 1/26/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>>> At 04:52 PM 1/26/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>>>> One benefit of a separate jobs mailing list is that it can be  
>>>> explicitly
>>>> moderated.
>>>
>>> One non-benefit of a separate list is that you cannot realistically
>>> subscribe to a job listing using your employer's computer.  The list
>>> heading screams out "I AM LOOKING FOR ANOTHER JOB".  If the  
>>> Python list
>>> comes in as one undifferentiated stream, you can peruse the lists  
>>> with no
>>> real fear of employer snooping.
>>
>> That's a pretty funny comment coming from you, Dennis ;)  Who exactly
>> are you afraid of?  Aren't you self employed? ;)
>
> Rather that "being afraid", consider that being self-employed  
> allows me to
> speak freely.  I made this comment on behalf of some who might have an
> interest in looking around but prefer not leaving compromising  
> records on
> employer computers or elsewhere.
>
> Know that I have about 40 years prior experience in being employed  
> and so
> my comments are not made in ignorance of job search environment.
>
> As a sage once said, just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean  
> they
> aren't out to get you  ;-)  FWIW, I did intend my comment to be  
> serious.
>
> Regards, Dennis
>   ---------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
> | Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
>   ---------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Sat Jan 27 20:19:56 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:19:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] website
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0701271119y52f2ec80he3ed1fb248c630d6@mail.gmail.com>

Last night I went to webfaction.com and (formerly python-hosting.com)
and upgraded our Plone site to:

Plone 2.5.1,
CMF-1.6.2,
Zope (Zope 2.9.5-final, python 2.4.0, linux2),
Five 1.3.7,
Python 2.4 (#1, Jul 24 2005, 05:05:49) [GCC 3.2.3 20030502 (Red Hat
Linux 3.2.3-52)],
PIL 1.1.5

It is now located at
http://www.baypiggies.net/new/plone

I will move Tony's book reviews to the new location...

Here are the areas we should add...

Meetings (of course)
Jobs (we can have one member manage the job section.. or leave it open
for site members to add their job through the system.. )
Upcoming Conferences/Events
Classes & Training

We can also add blogs for those who want to report on their
experiences at various Python related events.

I could use another Plone type admin to work with me on getting this
site done.. AND answer any questions from users. I have six kids and a
full-time growing business... and I'm more than willing to give what I
can..when I can.. but another Plonista or two would help get this
Plone site live.. and once we do that.. many more people will have the
ability to update the site.

Best Regards,
Donna M. Snow, Owner
C Squared Enterprises
illuminate your web
http://www.csquaredtech.com

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Sat Jan 27 21:50:04 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:50:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's welcome the new year!
Message-ID: <20070127205007.A5A6F1E4008@bag.python.org>


----- On Friday, January 26, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:

> I fear that it may be too many mailing lists for too few people.  I do
> like the idea of old timers being able to stick to just one mailing
> list.
> 
> Best Regards,
> -jj

Well, with an admin list, old-timers can just ignore it.  I think Paul's comment:


----- On Friday, January 26, 2007 paul at picomobilenet.com wrote:

> There is a lot more traffic on these meta-discussions about list
> content then there are job postings or actual useful content.
> 
> Suggestion:
> 1) allow job posting, but have guidelines that prescribe a well
> defined subject line so they can be filtered
> job posting can be interesting to the broader group in that
> they show where python is being used
> 2) quit clogging up what could be a useful mail list by these
> discussions of what should be in the list
> 
> 
> Paul
> 

is asking for a separate list for meta-discussion like this.

But I'm really arguing for it because Jim asked for it.

I think that the important principle for a voluteer organization is for the volunteers to say "yes" to the other volunteers as much as possible.  So I really want us to say "yes" to Jim, and "yes" to you, JJ.

If it is more than you want to moderate, JJ, and if Jim doesn't want to moderate it himself, I will. 

Marilyn


> 
> On 1/25/07, jim stockford  wrote:
>>     what happened to baypiggies-admin?
>>     I'd like that--for behind-the-scenes coordination
>> (e.g. explanations of how to get speakers, can
>> someone provide a {microphone,cable,pointer,...}).
>>
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2007, at 5:43 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>>
>> > On 1/25/07, Marilyn Davis  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ----- On Thursday, January 25, 2007 ylchobe at gmail.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 1/25/07, Chad Harrington  wrote:
>> >>>>> I propose:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I think a separate baypiggies-jobs list would be the best solution
>> >>>> to the
>> >>>> jobs issue.  90+% of BayPiggies members aren't looking for jobs and
>> >>>> would be
>> >>>> annoyed by lots of job posts. The remaining 10% are looking for
>> >>>> work and
>> >>>> would likely welcome a large number of jobs.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you are looking for a job, you subscribe to the jobs list.  If
>> >>>> not, you
>> >>>> don't.  Seems like the simplest policy.  There is no value in
>> >>>> having job
>> >>>> listings go to the 90% who don't want them.
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >> Just to clarify, the proposed job list will not have discussion or
>> >> announcements, just jobs, right?
>> >>
>> >> Then, JJ will have to be very hard-nosed about job-postings, *no*
>> >> job-postings on this list, but he can send them to the job list.
>> >>
>> >> If this is ok with JJ, who will have to be the cop, then:
>> >>
>> >> +1
>> >>
>> >> from me.
>> >
>> > +1 from me
>> >
>> > This is a summary of what I'm hearing:
>> >
>> > baypiggies-announce would contain:
>> >   * Meeting announcements for *just* BayPiggies.
>> >   * Reminders that we need speakers if we get low.
>> >
>> > baypiggies would contain:
>> >   * All of the above.
>> >   * Plus general Python chatter.
>> >   * People organizing the talks can use this list or break into
>> > private email as they feel is appropriate.
>> >
>> > baypiggies-jobs would contain:
>> >   * Python job postings.  The requirements would be a bit looser.
>> > That is, recruiters would be allowed.  Jobs outside the Bay Area would
>> > be allowed if relocation expenses were included or if the work could
>> > be done from the Bay Area.
>> >
>> > Do we have rough consensus?
>> >
>> > Best Regards,
>> > -jj
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Baypiggies mailing list
>> > Baypiggies at python.org
>> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>> >
>>
>>
> 
> 
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/



From DennisR at dair.com  Sun Jan 28 20:38:17 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 11:38:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] website
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0701271119y52f2ec80he3ed1fb248c630d6@mail.gmail.co
 m>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070128113412.00be6800@localhost>

At 11:19 AM 1/27/2007, Donna Snow wrote:
>can..when I can.. but another Plonista or two would help get this
>Plone site live.. and once we do that.. many more people will have the
>ability to update the site.

All I know about Plone, I learned in Donna's presentation.  I do not think 
that qualifies me as a "Plonista".

I read here that Donna is asking for qualified help to get this website 
moving forward.  How 'bout it folks?  Do we have anyone qualified in 
setting up a Plone site who can help move this forward???

Regards, Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 23:31:47 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:31:47 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] website
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070128113412.00be6800@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070128113412.00be6800@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301431m4d85eb5ar7f8f6ce90d10d2ff@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/28/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 11:19 AM 1/27/2007, Donna Snow wrote:
> >can..when I can.. but another Plonista or two would help get this
> >Plone site live.. and once we do that.. many more people will have the
> >ability to update the site.
>
> All I know about Plone, I learned in Donna's presentation.  I do not think
> that qualifies me as a "Plonista".
>
> I read here that Donna is asking for qualified help to get this website
> moving forward.  How 'bout it folks?  Do we have anyone qualified in
> setting up a Plone site who can help move this forward???

I can do it, but I fear I'm overextended too, although I'm only
working on kid 4 ;)

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 23:46:58 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:46:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, I'm getting mixed messages on two topics:

* Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

* Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

Well, this is a mailing list, so of course we'll disagree.

If you want a separate admin list, speak now.  I'm personally against
it.  However, if I get four or more +1's and no more than half as many
-1's, I'll let myself be vetoed.

As for the separate jobs list, some are arguing for it and some are
arguing against it.  I'm really quite confused because the arguments
are pretty much sounding the same on both sides.  Hence, my default
decision is to drop it.  We can stick with a subject line prefix with
the existing list.  If you really want the new list, speak now.
Again, four or more +1's and no more than half as many -1's.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From DennisR at dair.com  Tue Jan 30 23:58:40 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:58:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.co
 m>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070130145712.00bf9148@localhost>

At 02:46 PM 1/30/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>Ok, I'm getting mixed messages on two topics:
>
>* Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

Could you clarify the concept here?  Is this the discussion list among 
people doing planning? +1  Is this the admin-posted announce list?  +1  ... 
or is this something else entirely?


>* Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)


-1

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From max at theslimmers.net  Wed Jan 31 00:05:43 2007
From: max at theslimmers.net (Max Slimmer)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:05:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200701302305.l0UN5m7S019056@b.mail.sonic.net>

I vote 
	admin list -1
	job list -1

Status quo is good for me. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org 
> [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Shannon 
> -jj Behrens
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:47 PM
> To: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
> 
> Ok, I'm getting mixed messages on two topics:
> 
> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> 
> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> 
> Well, this is a mailing list, so of course we'll disagree.
> 
> If you want a separate admin list, speak now.  I'm personally 
> against it.  However, if I get four or more +1's and no more 
> than half as many -1's, I'll let myself be vetoed.
> 
> As for the separate jobs list, some are arguing for it and 
> some are arguing against it.  I'm really quite confused 
> because the arguments are pretty much sounding the same on 
> both sides.  Hence, my default decision is to drop it.  We 
> can stick with a subject line prefix with the existing list.  
> If you really want the new list, speak now.
> Again, four or more +1's and no more than half as many -1's.
> 
> Best Regards,
> -jj
> 
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 


From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:10:33 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:10:33 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070130145712.00bf9148@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070130145712.00bf9148@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301510o7eaac8dbq6889e10056b4031d@mail.gmail.com>

> Could you clarify the concept here?  Is this the discussion list among
> people doing planning? +1  Is this the admin-posted announce list?  +1  ...
> or is this something else entirely?

Thanks for making me be more clear.  This would be a "meta" list.  On it:

* We would discuss BayPiggies policies, like this thread.
* We would plan for the next meeting.

This is *separate* of the announce list.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 23:57:13 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:57:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)

Instructions:
To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
To keep the existing name, vote -1.

Certain of our readers object to the term "baypiggies" due to the
negative connotation.  Clearly, a better term might have been
"baysmarties", but I digress ;)

As we come to conclusion about the direction of this mailing list, it
makes sense to bite the bullet and vote on whether to keep the name
baypiggies.  As a historical note (Aahz can correct me), baypiggies
stands for "Bay Area Python Interest Group", which makes sense.

If we change the name baypiggies, we may (arguably) gain a name with a
better connotation, but we risk irritating a lot of people who will
have to update their mail filters and learn a new email address to
send mail to.  Worst of all, there may be instances of this email
address in the wild, and I'm not sure if I can set it up as an alias
if we decide to go with a new name.

Because of the severe drawbacks of this change, I'd like to be
conservative and propose that we only change the name if we have 10 or
more +1s and no more than half as many -1s.  I think requiring a two
to one vote is fair given the advantages vs. the disadvantages of
making this change.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From mac at Wireless.Com  Wed Jan 31 00:28:42 2007
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:28:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0701301528250.718@S.culver.net>

Name change:  -10000



On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:57:13 -0800
> From: Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com>
> To: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
> Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
> 
> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
>
> Instructions:
> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.
>
> Certain of our readers object to the term "baypiggies" due to the
> negative connotation.  Clearly, a better term might have been
> "baysmarties", but I digress ;)
>
> As we come to conclusion about the direction of this mailing list, it
> makes sense to bite the bullet and vote on whether to keep the name
> baypiggies.  As a historical note (Aahz can correct me), baypiggies
> stands for "Bay Area Python Interest Group", which makes sense.
>
> If we change the name baypiggies, we may (arguably) gain a name with a
> better connotation, but we risk irritating a lot of people who will
> have to update their mail filters and learn a new email address to
> send mail to.  Worst of all, there may be instances of this email
> address in the wild, and I'm not sure if I can set it up as an alias
> if we decide to go with a new name.
>
> Because of the severe drawbacks of this change, I'd like to be
> conservative and propose that we only change the name if we have 10 or
> more +1s and no more than half as many -1s.  I think requiring a two
> to one vote is fair given the advantages vs. the disadvantages of
> making this change.
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
> -- 
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From annaraven at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:16:30 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:16:30 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301510o7eaac8dbq6889e10056b4031d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070130145712.00bf9148@localhost>
	<c41f67b90701301510o7eaac8dbq6889e10056b4031d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610701301516rfbe6934qceeee3f3019c105c@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Could you clarify the concept here?  Is this the discussion list among
> > people doing planning? +1  Is this the admin-posted announce
> list?  +1  ...
> > or is this something else entirely?
>
> Thanks for making me be more clear.  This would be a "meta" list.  On it:
>
> * We would discuss BayPiggies policies, like this thread.
> * We would plan for the next meeting.



In that case, -1 on both.

But please lets label things [Admin] or [Job] or somesuch, so people can
easily filter.


-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070130/70982bad/attachment.htm 

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jan 31 00:35:29 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:35:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070130233529.GA11597@panix.com>

On Tue, Jan 30, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> Ok, I'm getting mixed messages on two topics:
> 
> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> 
> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

-1, -1
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From DennisR at dair.com  Wed Jan 31 00:36:50 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:36:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.co
 m>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070130153051.00bf4070@localhost>

At 02:57 PM 1/30/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)


There is a better question to ask first: do we end up with:

         (1) this list just like it has always been
         (2) this list with subject tags
         (3) separate lists

In the case of (3), we *need* new names for the added list.  Maybe 
"BayPiggies" is part of those new names  or maybe but new names are 
required.  In the case of (1) or (2), a new name is an unforced decision.

I am more likely to vote for a name change in situation 3, rather than 1 or 
2.  Can we wait to see how the question of separate lists settles out first?

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jan 31 00:38:55 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:38:55 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070130233855.GB11597@panix.com>

On Tue, Jan 30, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.

-1 of course  ;-)

Incidentally, are you permitting private votes?  I think you should for
people who wish to avoid cluttering the list, though I recommend
publicizing the votes afterward (similar to Usenet votes).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:48:06 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:48:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070130153051.00bf4070@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070130153051.00bf4070@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301548o27247415w28d08552f57edb6f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 02:57 PM 1/30/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
>
> There is a better question to ask first: do we end up with:
>
>          (1) this list just like it has always been
>          (2) this list with subject tags
>          (3) separate lists
>
> In the case of (3), we *need* new names for the added list.  Maybe
> "BayPiggies" is part of those new names  or maybe but new names are
> required.  In the case of (1) or (2), a new name is an unforced decision.
>
> I am more likely to vote for a name change in situation 3, rather than 1 or
> 2.  Can we wait to see how the question of separate lists settles out first?

Your last point is taken.

However, no matter how many lists we end up with, they should have the
same suffix (e.g. baypiggies).  If we decide to change that name, it
will be by a two to one majority, so I think it's okay to continue
this vote.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:51:24 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:51:24 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <20070130233855.GB11597@panix.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070130233855.GB11597@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301551vfe2bd39ib5fbd081aa60fdf0@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >
> > To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> > To keep the existing name, vote -1.
>
> -1 of course  ;-)
>
> Incidentally, are you permitting private votes?  I think you should for
> people who wish to avoid cluttering the list, though I recommend
> publicizing the votes afterward (similar to Usenet votes).

Being a "young'in", I was unaware of the Usenet pratice.  I have
already accepted one private vote.  It seems reasonable to require
that I publicize the votes to prove that I've been fair.

To that one special person who asked me to keep their vote secret,
please be advised of this and either permit me to talk about your vote
or rescind it.

Thanks,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From krishna2 at krishna2.com  Wed Jan 31 00:41:19 2007
From: krishna2 at krishna2.com (Krishna Srinivasan)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:41:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45BFD79F.9070307@krishna2.com>




> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> 
> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> 

-1, -1

-krishna

From krishna2 at krishna2.com  Wed Jan 31 00:42:16 2007
From: krishna2 at krishna2.com (Krishna Srinivasan)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:42:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45BFD7D8.9040301@krishna2.com>




> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.
> 

-1

-krishna

From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:58:14 2007
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:58:14 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <45BFD7D8.9040301@krishna2.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45BFD7D8.9040301@krishna2.com>
Message-ID: <8540148a0701301558w3f9ea08em24e0d59c64ea454@mail.gmail.com>

-1

From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:59:52 2007
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:59:52 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8540148a0701301559j347fb385nac2cdf5aba4e574@mail.gmail.com>

-1,-1

But a question, can we have a list baypiggied-jobs at ... which forwards
into the baypiggies at python.org and modifies the subject to be [JOB]
rest of subject?

Then sending is easy and filtering is easy.

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:01:35 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:01:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] clogged by meta-list discussions -> was Re: Let's
	welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301501w14e19ed5w368f5b09d2c9700c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>
	<c41f67b90701261554o4bd34f3fudca718e8bee16403@mail.gmail.com>
	<e36b84ee0701261643i7650e076ua967000ee84c17f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070126165746.00bf8d80@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070126172307.00bf7340@localhost>
	<8EC0F903-4595-4A25-8BFF-BF2D916F8C34@picomobilenet.com>
	<c41f67b90701301501w14e19ed5w368f5b09d2c9700c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301501sbb17afax790c2ba128ced64e@mail.gmail.com>

>   2) quit clogging up what could be a useful mail list by these
> discussions of what should be in the list

Paul,

I apologize for spending so much time figuring out these policies.
There have been a lot of arguments on this list over the last couple
years, and it's my hope to deal with them now so that we can move on.
Remember, it's darkest before daybreak ;)

Best Regards,
-jj

--
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 00:59:44 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:59:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <20070130233529.GA11597@panix.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070130233529.GA11597@panix.com>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0701301559hc24632cmba1aaea8de7fdfae@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe it's because I'm a girlie (are you with me Anna?) but doesn't it
seem silly to be lamenting the amount of emails on this list.. by
adding more? "shrugs"

The way I see it is.. this group is a "user" group.. an "interest"
group.. a bunch of different-minded people who all have one thing in
common. Their interest in Python.. (at whatever stage they happen to
be).. There is no way we are going to be able to make all the people
happy.. absolutely no way (unless you fed them all "special"
brownies.. then maybe you could make them all happy).

To me it seems silly to be worried about meta-discussions.. I get
stuff like that all the time.. and I just hit delete if I'm either too
busy to follow.. or it doesn't concern me.. which is 99.9999% of the
time. Seems simple enough to me..

So I think we stay with the current setup (making sure admin and jobs
are labeled.. so we can sort)... and we utilize the website much, much
more.

I mean why not have some of our discussions via forum or blog on the
website? that way those that really want to participate.. can (note I
said some.. not all).


Best Regards,
Donna M. Snow, Owner
C Squared Enterprises
illuminate your web
http://www.csquaredtech.com

From richardk at adax.com  Wed Jan 31 00:48:19 2007
From: richardk at adax.com (Richard Knowles)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:48:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0701301547490.2462-100000@adax>


-1 No change.


On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
> 
> Instructions:
> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.
> 
> Certain of our readers object to the term "baypiggies" due to the
> negative connotation.  Clearly, a better term might have been
> "baysmarties", but I digress ;)
> 
> As we come to conclusion about the direction of this mailing list, it
> makes sense to bite the bullet and vote on whether to keep the name
> baypiggies.  As a historical note (Aahz can correct me), baypiggies
> stands for "Bay Area Python Interest Group", which makes sense.
> 
> If we change the name baypiggies, we may (arguably) gain a name with a
> better connotation, but we risk irritating a lot of people who will
> have to update their mail filters and learn a new email address to
> send mail to.  Worst of all, there may be instances of this email
> address in the wild, and I'm not sure if I can set it up as an alias
> if we decide to go with a new name.
> 
> Because of the severe drawbacks of this change, I'd like to be
> conservative and propose that we only change the name if we have 10 or
> more +1s and no more than half as many -1s.  I think requiring a two
> to one vote is fair given the advantages vs. the disadvantages of
> making this change.
> 
> Best Regards,
> -jj
> 
> 

-- 

Richard Knowles
Senior Network Support Engineer
Adax, Inc. 614 Bancroft Way
Berkeley, CA 94710
Tel: 1-(510)-548-7047 ext. 148
Fax: 1-(510)-548-5526
http://www.adax.com


From cturner at pattern.net  Wed Jan 31 01:33:27 2007
From: cturner at pattern.net (Chip Turner)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:33:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] clogged by meta-list discussions -> was Re: Let's
	welcome the new year!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301501sbb17afax790c2ba128ced64e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070126001914.4C1341E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90701251743y78c51deu3a1a771a57726ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<14465700a016202912e408749c4150ff@well.com>
	<c41f67b90701261554o4bd34f3fudca718e8bee16403@mail.gmail.com>
	<e36b84ee0701261643i7650e076ua967000ee84c17f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070126165746.00bf8d80@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070126172307.00bf7340@localhost>
	<8EC0F903-4595-4A25-8BFF-BF2D916F8C34@picomobilenet.com>
	<c41f67b90701301501w14e19ed5w368f5b09d2c9700c@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90701301501sbb17afax790c2ba128ced64e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ab624bd0701301633l231b99aave9aa6252155be425@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> >   2) quit clogging up what could be a useful mail list by these
> > discussions of what should be in the list
>
> Paul,
>
> I apologize for spending so much time figuring out these policies.
> There have been a lot of arguments on this list over the last couple
> years, and it's my hope to deal with them now so that we can move on.
> Remember, it's darkest before daybreak ;)

It seems to me there should be a baypiggies-announce list and a
baypiggies-meta list.  No need for just a baypiggies list since no one
seems to, you know, discuss python.  Sorry if that sounds harsh, but
in a few months of lurking, it sure seems to me that pretty much
everything is either an announcement, job post, or some long boring
meta thread.

Less bickering, more python.

Chip

-- 
Chip Turner                   cturner at pattern.net

From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 01:35:53 2007
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:35:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5538c19b0701301635t7f9e1813k4c9b97b3f04b500a@mail.gmail.com>

>> To keep the existing name, vote -1.

-1

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 01:37:16 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:37:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <8540148a0701301559j347fb385nac2cdf5aba4e574@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
	<8540148a0701301559j347fb385nac2cdf5aba4e574@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301637k40c67e3bm3454d04acbddaae8@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, William Deegan <bdbaddog at gmail.com> wrote:
> -1,-1
>
> But a question, can we have a list baypiggied-jobs at ... which forwards
> into the baypiggies at python.org and modifies the subject to be [JOB]
> rest of subject?
>
> Then sending is easy and filtering is easy.

I think your suggestion is interesting.  However, I fear that if
someone forgets to use the right subject prefix, he'd probably also
forget to use the right mailing list.

Still, I agree with your underlying argument:  an email subject prefix
is important.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 01:41:21 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:41:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0701301559hc24632cmba1aaea8de7fdfae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070130233529.GA11597@panix.com>
	<baf0d46b0701301559hc24632cmba1aaea8de7fdfae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301641k3d019171p205906ccd226f347@mail.gmail.com>

Your point is well taken, but perhaps, just for clarity, you wouldn't
mind sending an explicit -1 if that's how you feel.

Thanks,
-jj

On 1/30/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe it's because I'm a girlie (are you with me Anna?) but doesn't it
> seem silly to be lamenting the amount of emails on this list.. by
> adding more? "shrugs"
>
> The way I see it is.. this group is a "user" group.. an "interest"
> group.. a bunch of different-minded people who all have one thing in
> common. Their interest in Python.. (at whatever stage they happen to
> be).. There is no way we are going to be able to make all the people
> happy.. absolutely no way (unless you fed them all "special"
> brownies.. then maybe you could make them all happy).
>
> To me it seems silly to be worried about meta-discussions.. I get
> stuff like that all the time.. and I just hit delete if I'm either too
> busy to follow.. or it doesn't concern me.. which is 99.9999% of the
> time. Seems simple enough to me..
>
> So I think we stay with the current setup (making sure admin and jobs
> are labeled.. so we can sort)... and we utilize the website much, much
> more.
>
> I mean why not have some of our discussions via forum or blog on the
> website? that way those that really want to participate.. can (note I
> said some.. not all).
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Donna M. Snow, Owner
> C Squared Enterprises
> illuminate your web
> http://www.csquaredtech.com
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From annaraven at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 01:49:41 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:49:41 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0701301559hc24632cmba1aaea8de7fdfae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070130233529.GA11597@panix.com>
	<baf0d46b0701301559hc24632cmba1aaea8de7fdfae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610701301649u5aad017cid3109910aad1373b@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe it's because I'm a girlie (are you with me Anna?) but doesn't it
> seem silly to be lamenting the amount of emails on this list.. by
> adding more? "shrugs"



Giggle. Reminds me of usenet posts of auld complaining about off-topic
posts. ;-)

>
> To me it seems silly to be worried about meta-discussions.. I get
> stuff like that all the time.. and I just hit delete if I'm either too
> busy to follow.. or it doesn't concern me.. which is 99.9999% of the
> time. Seems simple enough to me..



As long as the subject lines are updated to reflect the subject, I agree.

So I think we stay with the current setup (making sure admin and jobs
> are labeled.. so we can sort)... and we utilize the website much, much
> more.
>
> I mean why not have some of our discussions via forum or blog on the
> website? that way those that really want to participate.. can (note I
> said some.. not all).



Hrmmm - interesting suggestion. Unfortunately, I don't need yet another
forum to keep track of, so I can't really be too enthusiastic about that...
but, if others prefer it, I'd certainly not get in the way.

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070130/49de2e43/attachment.htm 

From annaraven at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 01:59:46 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:46 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610701301659y2816f52ncb94c862b64d856f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
>
> Instructions:
> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.
>
> Certain of our readers object to the term "baypiggies" due to the
> negative connotation.  Clearly, a better term might have been
> "baysmarties", but I digress ;)
>
> As we come to conclusion about the direction of this mailing list, it
> makes sense to bite the bullet and vote on whether to keep the name
> baypiggies.  As a historical note (Aahz can correct me), baypiggies
> stands for "Bay Area Python Interest Group", which makes sense.
>
> If we change the name baypiggies, we may (arguably) gain a name with a
> better connotation,...


I never did see what the negative connotations were, frankly. And no, I'm
not really tempted to go look it up in the archive. I suppose we could call
it BayPG. (I suspect we keep a PG rating anyways.) Of course, some of us
might be tempted to corrupt that to BayPC... ahem. I'm a big fan of
Charlotte's Web. Piggies are smart (so I'm told).
And yummy. Reminds me to thaw the guanciale for dinner.

-0 on the name change. Unless someone comes up with some awesome name, I
don't see it being worth the trouble.

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070130/4639b28a/attachment.html 

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Wed Jan 31 02:09:49 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:09:49 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
Message-ID: <20070131010952.94A7D1E4003@bag.python.org>


----- On Tuesday, January 30, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:

> Ok, I'm getting mixed messages on two topics:
> 
> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

+1

Jim asked for an admin list to help him figure out the meetings.  Jim has sort of a cheering squad in a cc: list right now.  He likes it, as I understand it.

I think the vote is running against this.

Does this mean that the group wants Jim to keep his meeting administration work on this list, i.e., in public?  And we should abandon any private cc-lists?

Or, is it ok if I make a deliberate.com list for him if he wants?  It would be eVoted, Jim, if that's ever useful.

> 
> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

0

> 

Total name change?  

We know that we don't have 2 to 1 from the last vote so I won't put yet another silly email in people's boxes for that.

But, I'll say it here:

+1.  

Bay Area Python Enthusiasts: BAPE

There are some glaring flaws in the democratic process here.  Just because I am participating doesn't mean I'm fooled into thinking that these decisions aren't pre-ordained.

But, nice gesture,

Marilyn

> Well, this is a mailing list, so of course we'll disagree.
> 
> If you want a separate admin list, speak now.  I'm personally against
> it.  However, if I get four or more +1's and no more than half as many
> -1's, I'll let myself be vetoed.
> 
> As for the separate jobs list, some are arguing for it and some are
> arguing against it.  I'm really quite confused because the arguments
> are pretty much sounding the same on both sides.  Hence, my default
> decision is to drop it.  We can stick with a subject line prefix with
> the existing list.  If you really want the new list, speak now.
> Again, four or more +1's and no more than half as many -1's.
> 
> Best Regards,
> -jj
> 
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From daniel at brightfire.com  Wed Jan 31 02:12:35 2007
From: daniel at brightfire.com (Daniel Lord)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:12:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Unfortunate
Message-ID: <2ad40b840701301712p5bebbfafrc8bf6ebd972c0020@mail.gmail.com>

I have been a memeber of this mailing list for a little over a month or two.
I joined with great hope of hearing great discussions and insights on
everything 'pythonic' given that the SF Bay Area is home to Google
which uses a lot of Python (so I am told).

And yet, qualitatively, about a couple of percent (give or take a few)
of the traffic on this mailing list so far has been about Python since
I've joined. The rest is
whining/insulting/bickering/table-pounding/etc/etc about the list
logistics, the name (which I think is clever--SIGs are half-expected
to have droll puns for their names BTW) which all other lists I belong
to have settled ages ago.

I think it is a great opportunity missed. If you are wondering why the
readship is small, I think I know why now. It is a great missed
opportunity. I'll be moving off the list and on elsewhere.

I don't have time for negative people or lists:
http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/04/angrynegative_p.html

Daniel Lord

From webmaven at cox.net  Wed Jan 31 02:12:29 2007
From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:12:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1170205949.1152.77.camel@workshop>

On Tue, 2007-01-30 at 14:46 -0800, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> Ok, I'm getting mixed messages on two topics:
> 
> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

-1

> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

-1

- Michael R. Bernstein
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070130/d3f00a7f/attachment.pgp 

From webmaven at cox.net  Wed Jan 31 02:13:04 2007
From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:13:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1170205984.1152.79.camel@workshop>

On Tue, 2007-01-30 at 14:57 -0800, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
> 
> Instructions:
> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.

-1

- Michael R. Bernstein
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070130/cf8d5bac/attachment.pgp 

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jan 31 02:45:44 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:45:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Unfortunate
In-Reply-To: <2ad40b840701301712p5bebbfafrc8bf6ebd972c0020@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2ad40b840701301712p5bebbfafrc8bf6ebd972c0020@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070131014544.GA9498@panix.com>

On Tue, Jan 30, 2007, Daniel Lord wrote:
>
> I think it is a great opportunity missed. If you are wondering why
> the readship is small, I think I know why now. It is a great missed
> opportunity. I'll be moving off the list and on elsewhere.

Without going into all the history, BayPIGgies had a major upheaval
starting about a year ago.  Unfortunately, it's taking longer than usual
for things to settle down, but I assure you from the experience of nearly
a decade on this list that this isn't the norm.

Please consider using your DEL key for uninteresting posts and waiting a
while longer.

Incidentally, BayPIGgies readership currently runs about 400 people,
compared to around 250 the last time I checked a year ago.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From ds-bp at sidorof.com  Wed Jan 31 03:02:07 2007
From: ds-bp at sidorof.com (DS)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:02:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list, name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45BFF89F.4020009@sidorof.com>

admin: -1
jobs: -1

name change: -1





From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Wed Jan 31 00:32:13 2007
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:32:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45BFD57D.3090503@mvista.com>

Being that this isn't some entity out to make money, we don't 
necessarily need to sound appealing.  The people that want to be here 
will be here regardless of the name.

I vote -1.

-carl

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
>
> Instructions:
> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.
>
> Certain of our readers object to the term "baypiggies" due to the
> negative connotation.  Clearly, a better term might have been
> "baysmarties", but I digress ;)
>
> As we come to conclusion about the direction of this mailing list, it
> makes sense to bite the bullet and vote on whether to keep the name
> baypiggies.  As a historical note (Aahz can correct me), baypiggies
> stands for "Bay Area Python Interest Group", which makes sense.
>
> If we change the name baypiggies, we may (arguably) gain a name with a
> better connotation, but we risk irritating a lot of people who will
> have to update their mail filters and learn a new email address to
> send mail to.  Worst of all, there may be instances of this email
> address in the wild, and I'm not sure if I can set it up as an alias
> if we decide to go with a new name.
>
> Because of the severe drawbacks of this change, I'd like to be
> conservative and propose that we only change the name if we have 10 or
> more +1s and no more than half as many -1s.  I think requiring a two
> to one vote is fair given the advantages vs. the disadvantages of
> making this change.
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
>   


-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 03:21:57 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:21:57 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Unfortunate
In-Reply-To: <20070131014544.GA9498@panix.com>
References: <2ad40b840701301712p5bebbfafrc8bf6ebd972c0020@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070131014544.GA9498@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301821i3b253e63g24ce555b78fa8bb5@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2007, Daniel Lord wrote:
> >
> > I think it is a great opportunity missed. If you are wondering why
> > the readship is small, I think I know why now. It is a great missed
> > opportunity. I'll be moving off the list and on elsewhere.
>
> Without going into all the history, BayPIGgies had a major upheaval
> starting about a year ago.  Unfortunately, it's taking longer than usual
> for things to settle down, but I assure you from the experience of nearly
> a decade on this list that this isn't the norm.
>
> Please consider using your DEL key for uninteresting posts and waiting a
> while longer.
>
> Incidentally, BayPIGgies readership currently runs about 400 people,
> compared to around 250 the last time I checked a year ago.

I'll second that.  All of the current effort is positive action in
order to reduce discontent among various members.  It's easy to storm
off in anger, but many of us are really trying to make this a better
place.  The problem with dealing with problems is that you have to
talk about them before they'll get resolved.  I think a week's worth
of voting is better than several month's worth of complaining.

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From noel.yap at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 03:24:26 2007
From: noel.yap at gmail.com (Noel Yap)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:24:26 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Unfortunate
In-Reply-To: <20070131014544.GA9498@panix.com>
References: <2ad40b840701301712p5bebbfafrc8bf6ebd972c0020@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070131014544.GA9498@panix.com>
Message-ID: <70d0a1130701301824j1089e792wcbcf68d8102168c8@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> Please consider using your DEL key for uninteresting posts and waiting a
> while longer.

Or use GMail and use 'm' to mute the thread altogether.

Noel

From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Wed Jan 31 00:05:07 2007
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:05:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45BFCF23.4080005@mvista.com>

Eh, really, there isn't that much traffic on this email list.  I get a 
couple emails once in a while, a simple filter and I can read them at my 
leisure.  Yes, that's right, that's how I keep 5 messages a week from 
disrupting my ADD.

I don't see the point in a separate mailing list for admin stuff.  I 
mean, that's mostly what goes on this list anyhow.  Every once in a 
while there's a python related discussion, but I wouldn't say that the 
volume of both warrants maintaining two different lists.

As far as the jobs list, again, i don't know that it really needs a 
list.  How about a simple policy (a standard subject heading that I can 
parse with a regex or whatever), users who can't handle it should be 
well more than adept enough with their email client to setup a filter 
and let it delete what they don't want.  I see more discussion about 
jobs than actual jobs posted anyhow.  We're all python programmers (or 
should be) and should be technically advanced enough to deal with this 
such that our own individual needs are met.

I don't see an extra handful of emails a week being a problem for anyone 
that they couldn't rectify entirely on their own.  With that, see some 
of you at pycon!

Votes below.

-c

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> Ok, I'm getting mixed messages on two topics:
>
> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
>   
-1

> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
>
>   
-1
> Well, this is a mailing list, so of course we'll disagree.
>
> If you want a separate admin list, speak now.  I'm personally against
> it.  However, if I get four or more +1's and no more than half as many
> -1's, I'll let myself be vetoed.
>
> As for the separate jobs list, some are arguing for it and some are
> arguing against it.  I'm really quite confused because the arguments
> are pretty much sounding the same on both sides.  Hence, my default
> decision is to drop it.  We can stick with a subject line prefix with
> the existing list.  If you really want the new list, speak now.
> Again, four or more +1's and no more than half as many -1's.
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
>   


-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From eric at ericwalstad.com  Wed Jan 31 03:38:01 2007
From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:38:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45C00109.60202@ericwalstad.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
if admin_list.description == 'mostly announcements about group
meetings/annoucements':
    return '+1'
else:
    return '0'


> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
-1

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 03:39:33 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:39:33 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <45BFCF23.4080005@mvista.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
	<45BFCF23.4080005@mvista.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301839o10d52210yf9f3cca653cae8e7@mail.gmail.com>

I'll take that as a:

admin: -1
jobs: -1

Thanks :)
-jj

On 1/30/07, Carl J. Van Arsdall <cvanarsdall at mvista.com> wrote:
> Eh, really, there isn't that much traffic on this email list.  I get a
> couple emails once in a while, a simple filter and I can read them at my
> leisure.  Yes, that's right, that's how I keep 5 messages a week from
> disrupting my ADD.
>
> I don't see the point in a separate mailing list for admin stuff.  I
> mean, that's mostly what goes on this list anyhow.  Every once in a
> while there's a python related discussion, but I wouldn't say that the
> volume of both warrants maintaining two different lists.
>
> As far as the jobs list, again, i don't know that it really needs a
> list.  How about a simple policy (a standard subject heading that I can
> parse with a regex or whatever), users who can't handle it should be
> well more than adept enough with their email client to setup a filter
> and let it delete what they don't want.  I see more discussion about
> jobs than actual jobs posted anyhow.  We're all python programmers (or
> should be) and should be technically advanced enough to deal with this
> such that our own individual needs are met.
>
> I don't see an extra handful of emails a week being a problem for anyone
> that they couldn't rectify entirely on their own.  With that, see some
> of you at pycon!
>
> Votes below.
>
> -c
>
> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> > Ok, I'm getting mixed messages on two topics:
> >
> > * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> >
> -1
>
> > * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> >
> >
> -1
> > Well, this is a mailing list, so of course we'll disagree.
> >
> > If you want a separate admin list, speak now.  I'm personally against
> > it.  However, if I get four or more +1's and no more than half as many
> > -1's, I'll let myself be vetoed.
> >
> > As for the separate jobs list, some are arguing for it and some are
> > arguing against it.  I'm really quite confused because the arguments
> > are pretty much sounding the same on both sides.  Hence, my default
> > decision is to drop it.  We can stick with a subject line prefix with
> > the existing list.  If you really want the new list, speak now.
> > Again, four or more +1's and no more than half as many -1's.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > -jj
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Carl J. Van Arsdall
> cvanarsdall at mvista.com
> Build and Release
> MontaVista Software
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From eric at ericwalstad.com  Wed Jan 31 03:39:58 2007
From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:39:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45C0017E.3070806@ericwalstad.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.

-1

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 03:41:24 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:41:24 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <45C00109.60202@ericwalstad.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
	<45C00109.60202@ericwalstad.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90701301841h611933f7xfb2d18a87478f008@mail.gmail.com>

We've already agreed on an announce list (which the main list would
subscribe to implicitly).  The admin list would be meta discussion,
such as this thread.  Hence, I'm inferring:

admin: 0
jobs: -1

Thanks!
-jj

On 1/30/07, Eric Walstad <eric at ericwalstad.com> wrote:
> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> > * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> if admin_list.description == 'mostly announcements about group
> meetings/annoucements':
>     return '+1'
> else:
>     return '0'
>
>
> > * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> -1
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From kenobi at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 04:21:24 2007
From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:21:24 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0aa69930701301921k9d446c4k309f65542ca3ba@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
>
> Instructions:
> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.

-1.  I sorta think the current name has character. :-)

As for Usenet practice, I believe it was to send votes to a tellers
committee (or person).  At the end of the voting period, the teller
would publish the results, including lists of e-mail addresses of
those voting for and those voting against.  This allowed each voter to
verify that he/she was on the correct list, while saving Usenet (and
modem) bandwidth.  (I miss my 9600 baud compressing Trailblazer
modem.)

--Rick Kwan

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jan 31 05:55:22 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:55:22 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <f0aa69930701301921k9d446c4k309f65542ca3ba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0aa69930701301921k9d446c4k309f65542ca3ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070131045522.GA8779@panix.com>

On Tue, Jan 30, 2007, Rick Kwan wrote:
>
> (I miss my 9600 baud compressing Trailblazer modem.)

You had a 9600 baud modem?  Luxury!
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From eric at ericwalstad.com  Wed Jan 31 06:26:44 2007
From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:26:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] OT Snail Baud (was:  [vote] name change)
In-Reply-To: <20070131045522.GA8779@panix.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>	<f0aa69930701301921k9d446c4k309f65542ca3ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070131045522.GA8779@panix.com>
Message-ID: <45C02894.3010607@ericwalstad.com>

Aahz wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2007, Rick Kwan wrote:
>> (I miss my 9600 baud compressing Trailblazer modem.)
> 
> You had a 9600 baud modem?  Luxury!
I miss my rtty/hf/amateur radio rig.  I don't recall exactly what baud
rate I could do with my KAM (Kantronics All Mode), I think it was 300
baud on the 40 meter band where I would hang out.  Ah, the good old days
when I had room for an HF antenna and the time to tinker with cw, rtty
and packet radio.

--... ...--
kc6ntp

From pk1u at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 31 06:50:08 2007
From: pk1u at yahoo.com (Praveen Kumar)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:50:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
Message-ID: <154395.58407.qm@web36109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

Don't care. But how about a separate list just for final event announcements (
no discussions ) ?



 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up... 
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front

From harrington_chad at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 31 15:23:51 2007
From: harrington_chad at hotmail.com (Chad Harrington)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 06:23:51 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV113C6EC0D81C81324D59DF82A50@phx.gbl>

> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
-1

> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
+1

Chad
   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070131/9c57e590/attachment.htm 

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Wed Jan 31 18:54:09 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:54:09 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
Message-ID: <20070131175412.CCD951E4006@bag.python.org>


----- On Tuesday, January 30, 2007 cvanarsdall at mvista.com wrote:

> Being that this isn't some entity out to make money, we don't
> necessarily need to sound appealing.  The people that want to be here
> will be here regardless of the name.

I think your logic is backwards Carl:  what we call ourselves is much more important than what others call us.  It has much more power for shaping who we are and how we behave.

There are lots of great lists for disucssing Python itself.  So people who are looking for that should try the others.  My favorite is the tutor list.  The global lists have nothing else to do, except discuss Python.

This one is about knowing and meeting other Python enthusiasts.  It is special because it is connected to our geography.  It is about people and real connections.

So it makes sense to me that admin and meta discussions would dominate.

Respectfully,

Marilyn

> 
> I vote -1.
> 
> -carl
> 
> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
>>
>> Instructions:
>> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
>> To keep the existing name, vote -1.
>>
>> Certain of our readers object to the term "baypiggies" due to the
>> negative connotation.  Clearly, a better term might have been
>> "baysmarties", but I digress ;)
>>
>> As we come to conclusion about the direction of this mailing list, it
>> makes sense to bite the bullet and vote on whether to keep the name
>> baypiggies.  As a historical note (Aahz can correct me), baypiggies
>> stands for "Bay Area Python Interest Group", which makes sense.
>>
>> If we change the name baypiggies, we may (arguably) gain a name with a
>> better connotation, but we risk irritating a lot of people who will
>> have to update their mail filters and learn a new email address to
>> send mail to.  Worst of all, there may be instances of this email
>> address in the wild, and I'm not sure if I can set it up as an alias
>> if we decide to go with a new name.
>>
>> Because of the severe drawbacks of this change, I'd like to be
>> conservative and propose that we only change the name if we have 10 or
>> more +1s and no more than half as many -1s.  I think requiring a two
>> to one vote is fair given the advantages vs. the disadvantages of
>> making this change.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> -jj
>>
>>
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Carl J. Van Arsdall
> cvanarsdall at mvista.com
> Build and Release
> MontaVista Software
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From annaraven at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 19:03:20 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:03:20 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <20070131175412.CCD951E4006@bag.python.org>
References: <20070131175412.CCD951E4006@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <cb361a610701311003r776da938o7323c79829121e12@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:

Marilyn,

I just sent you an email. You might want to check for it in your spam
folder. And do whatever you need to add me to your white list that doesn't
involve me clicking on email links. Or not. ;-)

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070131/5394cd4c/attachment.htm 

From ylchobe at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 19:12:50 2007
From: ylchobe at gmail.com (Yogesh Chobe)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:12:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610701311003r776da938o7323c79829121e12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070131175412.CCD951E4006@bag.python.org>
	<cb361a610701311003r776da938o7323c79829121e12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a009dcab0701311012g11bbe2c8h9006513a9a06b53b@mail.gmail.com>

-1

From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Wed Jan 31 19:18:04 2007
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:18:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <20070131175412.CCD951E4006@bag.python.org>
References: <20070131175412.CCD951E4006@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <45C0DD5C.6010507@mvista.com>

Marilyn Davis wrote:
> ----- On Tuesday, January 30, 2007 cvanarsdall at mvista.com wrote:
> [snipdizzle...]
>
> I think your logic is backwards Carl:  what we call ourselves is much more important than what others call us.  It has much more power for shaping who we are and how we behave.
>   
I think I need a counter example as to how BayPiggies vs some other name 
will attract python enthusiasts differently.  I know that when I was 
looking for a python group here in the bay, I googled it, found it, I 
thought BayPiggies was a bit silly, but it didn't deter me in the 
slightest.  I knew what I want, and being that this was the only group 
in town, there it was.  I would think that a name that states "it is 
what it is" would be most appropriate (Bay Area Python Interest Group) 
which is what BayPiggies is, I just assumed it was shorted to 
BayPiggies.  So in my head (granted, this could come down to a simple 
philosophy, so we can agree to disagree too), it seems absolutely 
appropriate.

I think what's more important is the content of the group.  If the 
content is nothing short of amazing, then BayPiggies, BayLemurs, or 
"Guys who like to hang out at google cause they are just that cool" 
would suffice.  What attracts me to this group are presentations I find 
useful as well as insight into the Bay Area Python community.  If 
nothing else, the member who suggested "time management for system 
administrators" at the meet and greet, he changed my life.  Its those 
suggestions, new ideas, that keep me coming back.  A way to better 
myself and contribute to the betterment of the community in ways that I 
find I am able.

> There are lots of great lists for disucssing Python itself.  So people who are looking for that should try the others.  My favorite is the tutor list.  The global lists have nothing else to do, except discuss Python.
>   
Yep, plenty of lists, I'm on some of them.  They don't come with the 
family atmosphere that this one comes with, and that's why I like it 
over say, the general python list where a single mistake will result in 
15 flames from angry python developers all over the world.  I think this 
list is useful for discussing python within the context of the bay area 
in addition to connecting with other python developers.  As this place 
has a different culture all its own and its nice to approach things from 
this perspective.

> This one is about knowing and meeting other Python enthusiasts.  It is special because it is connected to our geography.  It is about people and real connections.
>   
Yep, I agree.  Maybe there's a miscommunication somewhere.  But I don't 
think that this list should be limited to meet and greet.  It should be 
a place where we can communicate technically as well, but within the 
context of the bay area and the industry that we are building here.

> So it makes sense to me that admin and meta discussions would dominate.
>   
And I am fine with that too.  But I dont' think there needs to be three 
separate mailing lists.  There really isn't *that* much going on here 
and those that *really* don't want to deal with those discussions could 
pretty easily setup some filters if we have a simple process for 
differentiating emails based on simple subject headers.  There are times 
where I may or may not be interested in those, but coming into the 
group, I don't necessarily want to think about three different lists. 

Sorry if my tone sounds harsh or something, people tell me I come off 
that way, but I'm just participating in the discussion, I promise 
there's no ill will here, I love you guys :)

-carl

-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From jjhartley at att.net  Wed Jan 31 19:41:19 2007
From: jjhartley at att.net (James Hartley)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:41:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <20070131175412.CCD951E4006@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <003901c74567$67b14f90$51a2480c@aluminum>

>> On Tuesday, January 30, 2007 cvanarsdall at mvista.com wrote:
>
>> Being that this isn't some entity out to make money, we don't
>> necessarily need to sound appealing.  The people that want to be here
>> will be here regardless of the name.
>
> I think your logic is backwards Carl:  what we call ourselves is much
more > important than what others call us.  It has much more power for
shaping 
> who we are and how we behave.

Given that you joined the group while its name is BayPIGgies indicates
that the name isn't important to you either.  This hasn't a matter of
logic as it is personal agenda.

Name change == -1



From rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu  Wed Jan 31 19:57:17 2007
From: rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu (Robert Stephenson)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:57:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1E9900E0-972F-4C09-973B-A74C0734AF85@sun.science.wayne.edu>

-1 for me.
- Rob

On Jan 30, 2007, at 2:57 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
>
> Instructions:
> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an  
> alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*  Dr. Robert S. Stephenson
*  E-learning Architect
*  rstephe at alumni.princeton.edu
*  (415) 341-3784
*  http://sun.science.wayne.edu/~rstephe
*
*  Community Manager
*  Global Education & Learning Community on Java.net
*  http://gelc.org
*
*  Chief Architect and Principal Investigator
*  http://OpenCourse.Org
*  Supporting virtual communities of e-learning developers.
*
*  Founder
*  The Harvey Project
*  Open Course Physiology on the Web
*  http://HarveyProject.org
*
*  Was I helpful?  Let others know:
*  http://rate.affero.net/rstephe
*
*  gpg key fingerprint:
*  4255 FB43 17C8 2B80 8074  7DB6 7DD7 939B F3F6 CB92
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jan 31 20:39:56 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:39:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <20070131175412.CCD951E4006@bag.python.org>
References: <20070131175412.CCD951E4006@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <20070131193956.GA19608@panix.com>

On Wed, Jan 31, 2007, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>
> So it makes sense to me that admin and meta discussions would dominate.

Except for one little detail: historically, aside from discussions about
meeting agenda and location, this list has had very little admin and meta
discussion.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 21:19:19 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:19:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Talk suggestions (Python WTF snippets, PEPs,
	collections)
Message-ID: <a14a87410701311219o581dd602yf908e774778edd5a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

   I had a few ideas for possible BayPIG talks, discussions, bull sessions, etc.

   I'm a reader of the The Daily WTF (thedailywtf.com), which is often
funny, and sometimes informative.  It is just a collection of
programming practices, stories, or code snippets that make you think
"WTF?"  It made me think of how perhaps I use Python precisely because
it seems harder to fall into certain WTF coding practices.  Still, I
think a talk with some representative examples (ie. anti-idioms,
beginner mistakes with Python, abuse of features, etc) might be fun.

   In that vein, if people are interested, and want to be on the
lookout for such things, I wouldn't mind collecting (w/ attributions,
credit, or denials if requested) examples of such Python WTF code in
hopes of presenting it at a future date. I know if I looked through my
old GUI code I'd find a few.  I see it ultimately as a learning
exercise, with hopefully some good laughs.  Any excited about the
idea, looking for such code, contributing, etc?

   Also, having been out the Python world for a bit over a year, and
working my way back into it, I am interested in possibly preparing or
following up on a PEP or two.  I'd be interested in a talk by anyone
who has written a PEP, and in the process involved (the kind of
feedback given, etc.) and maybe catching up on some of the recent and
active PEPs.

  Personally, I'm quite interested to find out more on any efforts to
(perhaps) get a multidimensional numeric type included with Python
(PEP 209 seems to be withdrawn, but work on the new numpy module is
proceeding).  I was thinking it would be useful to have a basic
statistics module included with Python (rather like the scipy addons),
and I especially think something like the dispatcher.py module would
be nice.  I'd be willing to work towards developing PEPs for both.
Anyway, a PEP talk (groan) could be cool; anyone else interested?

  Also, somewhat related to that, the 'collections' module now exists,
and I'd like to see a few collections added over the long run.  Python
now has maps, sets, lists builtin, and Queue, heapq, collections.deque
as standard additions.  What else should be standard?  Personally, I
think splay trees, and an additional heap type, would be beneficial.
Other ideas?

  So, there are a few of my random thoughts about both talk ideas, and
maybe list discussion topics (especially if anyone in the area wants
to collaborate on some of the coding of these things).

Chad

From wescpy at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 21:24:45 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:24:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] decision-making
Message-ID: <78b3a9580701311224v622eb97i6fee2a731d5dbab4@mail.gmail.com>

JJ,

thanks for taking the initiative and polling the membership with
regards to resolving our mailing list issues.  i applaud all members
who contribute to the list in a positive and constructive manner,
making our community a small microcosm of the general global Python
populus as a whole.  as a member since its early days in 1999, i feel
that i need to contribute my $0.02 here.

nameChange = -1

the name was admittedly awkward at first, but then again, so was
delimitation by indentation.  i took it FWIW and moved on.  i have no
opinions good or bad about the name.  all i can say is that it hasn't
really been a problem (except to those who despise it).  i use
"BayPIGgies" in a fun and lighthearted way, then switch to "the
Silicon Valley-San Francisco Bay Area Python users group" when more
appropriate in a professional setting.  most of the time, i introduce
the group with both titles since "BayPIGgies" is a conversation
starter, which inevitably leads to the names of the portland group
(PORPIGgies) and the mississippi group (the MS PIGgies).  the hint to
beginners is given that the community is technical, yet loose and
lighthearted, and that you won't get chewed out for asking questions
as a newbie.  it's the language that attracts new programmers to
Python, and it is the community that keeps them within the fold.  you
will know this if you've ever gone to a Python conference like
PyCon... if you go just once, you will find yourself always returning.

additional, admin, and jobs lists = -1 + -1 + -1

if we tone down the rhetoric and properly subject-line the content,
i.e. [JOB], [ANN], etc., it will suffice since these are not the
dominant threads on the mailing list, and they're not even close.   as
aahz mentioned previously, aside from the "what are we talking about
next month" and "where is the meeting" posts, there was very little to
no admin nor meta-discussions on the list at all.  if we get recruiter
msgs more than once per week on a regular basis, then perhaps it's
time to make another list, but not for now.

in fact, jim, we should also reserve one meeting during the year as
"recruiters" or "Python jobs" night.  this will let recruiters, hiring
managers, or engineers on teams that *are* hiring to present their
case in a "random access" kind of way, then let those interested
collate and co-mingle afterwards with discussion and
resume/business-card exchange.  we had one of these at ironport, and i
think it went pretty well.

that's it for now,
-wesley

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 21:29:51 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:29:51 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Some updates to the BayPiggies web page (and mention
	of the wiki)
Message-ID: <a14a87410701311229n1987267eo417b0a6876e6f6ac@mail.gmail.com>

  In some off-list correspondence a while back I mentioned that the
web site needs some updating, and was told to mention in on the list.
Mainly, in the "Navigation" sidebar (to the left), the directions link
is out of date (http://baypiggies.net/dir.html), still pointing to
IronPort.  Granted, the updated information is on the front page, but
I'd suggest that the directions link also be updated, or removed.

  Also, at the January meeting, I mentioned the BayPiggies meeting
Wiki, and many attendees said "what Wiki?".  It is linked to on the
website, but not prominently.  Perhaps it could be made more explicit
(the link is http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings), as
it is useful for "signing up" ahead of time.

Chad

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 21:58:17 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:58:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Some updates to the BayPiggies web page (and
	mention of the wiki)
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410701311229n1987267eo417b0a6876e6f6ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410701311229n1987267eo417b0a6876e6f6ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0701311258y12d1fc02rbfd5497500a8c064@mail.gmail.com>

I can adjust that for now.. but we are moving to a Plone site.. which
will alleviate much of the "old" information and delay in adding
content because change of content will be accessible to anyone (we
authorize) who is comfortable working with a browser based MS
Word-like WYSIWYG editor (say that 5 times fast)

So we need to put a drop-dead date on completion of this site.. I
think if we really push.. we can have the new site done.. by end of
next week.. it really isn't that large of a site..
I just need feedback and we need someone to change dns once we are
satisfied.. with the new site..

I'll put some time into it this weekend.. so let's plan on a vote
(usenet style) on Monday on whether the site is good, bad or
otherwise.

Mark Jaffe pointed out a join issue on the site.. (related to the mail
me a password) that I need to fix.. I'll do that today so anyone who
wants to help.. can join the site.. I will make you a manager so you
can add content and publish.

Look & feel will be simple to start.. and we can continue to improve
upon the design.

If we move to the new site soon.. all the "events" (like information
about OSCON) will be easy to add. I don't have to do it.. you can go
in and add an event.. publish and it'll show up.

Do we have a February talk planned? if'n we don't or if the talk
doesn't take up the entire time.. maybe we break up into groups
earlier than usual and I can do a little small group "training" on how
to use the system to add content? It won't be a presentation per se
(don't have to record) but I can just whip open the laptop and take
people through how to work with plone.. for those who'd like to
contribute to the baypiggies.net website.. like Tony or Jim (for
adding meetings)

Anyway..I have to get back to work.. i'll change out the directory
link for now.. (or at least comment the old info)...

I can link directly to the BayPiggies (google sign up) wiki..maybe
something like..

Planning on attending this meeting? SIGN UP HERE :-)

Donna


On 1/31/07, Chad Netzer <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:
>   In some off-list correspondence a while back I mentioned that the
> web site needs some updating, and was told to mention in on the list.
> Mainly, in the "Navigation" sidebar (to the left), the directions link
> is out of date (http://baypiggies.net/dir.html), still pointing to
> IronPort.  Granted, the updated information is on the front page, but
> I'd suggest that the directions link also be updated, or removed.
>
>   Also, at the January meeting, I mentioned the BayPiggies meeting
> Wiki, and many attendees said "what Wiki?".  It is linked to on the
> website, but not prominently.  Perhaps it could be made more explicit
> (the link is http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings), as
> it is useful for "signing up" ahead of time.
>
> Chad
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From kenobi at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 22:13:00 2007
From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:13:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] OT Snail Baud (was: [vote] name change)
In-Reply-To: <45C02894.3010607@ericwalstad.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0aa69930701301921k9d446c4k309f65542ca3ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070131045522.GA8779@panix.com> <45C02894.3010607@ericwalstad.com>
Message-ID: <f0aa69930701311313j1bdfe195s5b24b4d88642c396@mail.gmail.com>

I'm very amused.  My innocuous little comment has become its own
thread.  (I'll get back on topic ... sort of ... in a minute.)

I believe I started doing UUCP with a 2400 baud modem passing Netnews
and other traffic between a couple of research institutions in the
L.A. area.  (Don't think I had to do 1200.)  A lot of Usenet
conventions were based on minimizing bandwidth usage so that the
signal/noise ratio remained high, or at least decent.  (The first spam
in Usenet was a major offense just because the little message ate
bandwidth from so many news groups.  [Can't remember the business
name, but I remember they were immigration lawyers.]  Recall also that
the original ARPAnet ran on 56Kbps leased lines.)

However, given the increased traffic that human readers wade through,
many Usenet conventions seem to have  enduring usefulness (e.g., how
votes were conducted, editing down original messages in responses,
interleaved originals and responses), even in the days of broadband.
(And in some places, the top-posting that I'm doing here would be a
no-no.)

--Rick

On 1/30/07, Eric Walstad <eric at ericwalstad.com> wrote:
> Aahz wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 30, 2007, Rick Kwan wrote:
> >> (I miss my 9600 baud compressing Trailblazer modem.)
> >
> > You had a 9600 baud modem?  Luxury!
> I miss my rtty/hf/amateur radio rig.  I don't recall exactly what baud
> rate I could do with my KAM (Kantronics All Mode), I think it was 300
> baud on the 40 meter band where I would hang out.  Ah, the good old days
> when I had room for an HF antenna and the time to tinker with cw, rtty
> and packet radio.
>
> --... ...--
> kc6ntp
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jan 31 22:32:29 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:32:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] OT Snail Baud (was: [vote] name change)
In-Reply-To: <f0aa69930701311313j1bdfe195s5b24b4d88642c396@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0aa69930701301921k9d446c4k309f65542ca3ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070131045522.GA8779@panix.com>
	<45C02894.3010607@ericwalstad.com>
	<f0aa69930701311313j1bdfe195s5b24b4d88642c396@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070131213228.GA23982@panix.com>

On Wed, Jan 31, 2007, Rick Kwan wrote:
>
> I'm very amused.  My innocuous little comment has become its own
> thread.  (I'll get back on topic ... sort of ... in a minute.)

<grin>

> (The first spam
> in Usenet was a major offense just because the little message ate
> bandwidth from so many news groups.  [Can't remember the business
> name, but I remember they were immigration lawyers.]  Recall also that
> the original ARPAnet ran on 56Kbps leased lines.)

Canter & Siegel, the Green Card Lawyers.  That wasn't the first spam (and
it post-dated Serdar Argic), but it was the first widely multi-posted
business spam:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canter_&_Siegel
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From whitaker at google.com  Wed Jan 31 23:03:59 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:03:59 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] decision-making
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580701311224v622eb97i6fee2a731d5dbab4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78b3a9580701311224v622eb97i6fee2a731d5dbab4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <997a56990701311403v63188b92rea7e1ea318931e2c@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, wesley chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> in fact, jim, we should also reserve one meeting during the year as
> "recruiters" or "Python jobs" night.  this will let recruiters, hiring
> managers, or engineers on teams that *are* hiring to present their
> case in a "random access" kind of way, then let those interested
> collate and co-mingle afterwards with discussion and
> resume/business-card exchange.  we had one of these at ironport, and i
> think it went pretty well.
>

I would expect such an event to be _very_ well attended by jobseekers
(as well as by those of us trying to hire Python programmers...)

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Wed Jan 31 23:27:30 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:27:30 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
Message-ID: <20070131222732.E87CF1E4006@bag.python.org>


----- On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 cvanarsdall at mvista.com wrote:

> Marilyn Davis wrote:
>> ----- On Tuesday, January 30, 2007 cvanarsdall at mvista.com wrote:
>> [snipdizzle...]
>>
>> I think your logic is backwards Carl:  what we call ourselves is much more
> important than what others call us.  It has much more power for shaping who
> we are and how we behave.
>>
> I think I need a counter example as to how BayPiggies vs some other name
> will attract python enthusiasts differently.  I know that when I was

I guess I haven't made myself understood.

I spent some years in a spiritual school and was taught to be very careful about the labels I take on.  If, when I make a mistake, I call myself "stupid", it will cause me to be more stupid.  If, instead, I say "oops, I made a mistake", it will have no negative effect on my future performance.

If I call myself "piggy" I'll take on the negative characteristics that I associate with the word.  

I remember taking a class about defending yourself against your super-ego.  Your super-ego is that little voice that calls you names, usually the same names and same tone of voice as your parents.  It's a very destructive little voice for many people.

When I first brought up this subject, which I understand was not the first time it was brought up, I was flamed quite mercilessly.  If I was to accept for myself the label "piggy", I'd be inclined to flame back.  Instead, I live in rejection of the name, which limits my participation and causes me to think of the group as "them" more than "us".

So, my point about the name is not about attracting members, or even professional appearances.  It is about my own being, and the beings of the members of the group with whom I want to be friends and associates.

> looking for a python group here in the bay, I googled it, found it, I
> thought BayPiggies was a bit silly, but it didn't deter me in the
> slightest.  I knew what I want, and being that this was the only group
> in town, there it was.  I would think that a name that states "it is
> what it is" would be most appropriate (Bay Area Python Interest Group)
> which is what BayPiggies is, I just assumed it was shorted to
> BayPiggies.  So in my head (granted, this could come down to a simple
> philosophy, so we can agree to disagree too), it seems absolutely
> appropriate.

I agree to disagree.  That's how I'm able to cope with being in a group that has a name I can't say without making a face.

> 
> I think what's more important is the content of the group.  If the

I maintain that the label and the content are related.  Well, I shouldn't say 'I', but that psychologists know that labels are hugely responsible for our behaviors.  I know that, in general, technical people aren't necessarily on board with what psychologists tell us, but I am.  And, I enjoy talking about it.

> content is nothing short of amazing, then BayPiggies, BayLemurs, or
> "Guys who like to hang out at google cause they are just that cool"
> would suffice.  What attracts me to this group are presentations I find
> useful as well as insight into the Bay Area Python community.  If
> nothing else, the member who suggested "time management for system
> administrators" at the meet and greet, he changed my life.  Its those
> suggestions, new ideas, that keep me coming back.  A way to better
> myself and contribute to the betterment of the community in ways that I
> find I am able.

Yes, there are some great meetings.  I just wonder what it could be if we had a non-derogatory name.  We will probably never know.

> 
>> There are lots of great lists for disucssing Python itself.  So people who
> are looking for that should try the others.  My favorite is the tutor list.
> The global lists have nothing else to do, except discuss Python.
>>
> Yep, plenty of lists, I'm on some of them.  They don't come with the
> family atmosphere that this one comes with, and that's why I like it
> over say, the general python list where a single mistake will result in
> 15 flames from angry python developers all over the world.  I think this
> list is useful for discussing python within the context of the bay area
> in addition to connecting with other python developers.  As this place
> has a different culture all its own and its nice to approach things from
> this perspective.
> 
>> This one is about knowing and meeting other Python enthusiasts.  It is
> special because it is connected to our geography.  It is about people and
> real connections.
>>
> Yep, I agree.  Maybe there's a miscommunication somewhere.  But I don't
> think that this list should be limited to meet and greet.  It should be

Me either!  I like it all.  I was just defending the meta-discussions and the discussions about ourselves.

> a place where we can communicate technically as well, but within the
> context of the bay area and the industry that we are building here.

Yes, nice expression.

> 
>> So it makes sense to me that admin and meta discussions would dominate.
>>
> And I am fine with that too.  But I dont' think there needs to be three
> separate mailing lists.  There really isn't *that* much going on here
> and those that *really* don't want to deal with those discussions could
> pretty easily setup some filters if we have a simple process for
> differentiating emails based on simple subject headers.  There are times
> where I may or may not be interested in those, but coming into the
> group, I don't necessarily want to think about three different lists.
> 
> Sorry if my tone sounds harsh or something, people tell me I come off
> that way, but I'm just participating in the discussion, I promise
> there's no ill will here, I love you guys :)

You don't sound harsh at all to me, Carl.  And I hope I don't sound harsh either.  Thanks for the discussion.

Marilyn

> 
> -carl
> 
> --
> 
> Carl J. Van Arsdall
> cvanarsdall at mvista.com
> Build and Release
> MontaVista Software
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies