From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  3 21:32:48 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 12:32:48 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python tutorials
Message-ID: <BAY108-F15A458826217F6C9FEE1CF8FEA0@phx.gbl>

Currently, I am going thru the Nevow examples for my own education. This is 
that simple index.html file that allows the example to be run and the source 
displayed in a browser. For me this is a very effective way of learning.

If anyone knows of any Python related package that has adopted the Nevow 
example scheme I would appreciate knowing about it.

A customer of mine (develops in java and C#) is a mobile system integrator 
and would benefit greatly by using Python support in many areas. I am 
thinking about preparing tutorials in the Nevow example format for some key 
areas (network testing, log scraping, blah, ...) but could use more examples 
than I could write from scratch.

The Nevow examples is probably pushing the complexity tolerance 
(Introspection, interfaces, etc.) for the customer. Don't exclude anything 
you may think is too simple. Include games (this is a sell job), strange 
products(RS-485, LonWorks,..), Windows, Unisys interfaces, blah,.. - nothing 
is too strange or specialized.

Thanks



From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Sat Mar  4 22:01:23 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 13:01:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python tutorials
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F15A458826217F6C9FEE1CF8FEA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F15A458826217F6C9FEE1CF8FEA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5538c19b0603041301y456a6092i3a819a30fadc3bf1@mail.gmail.com>

The wxPython Demo uses a tabbed pane for the wxPython
feature selected from a tree of features. There is a tab for
Overview, and if there is any code, a tab for any Demo Code,
and a tab for running the Demo code, sometimes with
output in that tab or else in additional launched windows.
The selections in "Using Images" and "Miscellaneous" have some
attention getting demos.

I don't know of anything at the wxPython Wiki or any document
that describes these demos, just select a demo and read the
"Overview" tab.

The wxPython 2.6 Docs and Demos are in a package with some
form of the name "demo". They are no longer in the binary for
wxPython, which works out better in the long run.
At http://www.wxpython.org/download.php

Also, wxPython widgets are incorporated,  or may possibly be
added (YMMV) to PythonCard.

On 3/3/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Currently, I am going thru the Nevow examples for my own education. This is
> that simple index.html file that allows the example to be run and the source
> displayed in a browser. For me this is a very effective way of learning.
>
> If anyone knows of any Python related package that has adopted the Nevow
> example scheme I would appreciate knowing about it.
>
> A customer of mine (develops in java and C#) is a mobile system integrator
> and would benefit greatly by using Python support in many areas. I am
> thinking about preparing tutorials in the Nevow example format for some key
> areas (network testing, log scraping, blah, ...) but could use more examples
> than I could write from scratch.
>
> The Nevow examples is probably pushing the complexity tolerance
> (Introspection, interfaces, etc.) for the customer. Don't exclude anything
> you may think is too simple. Include games (this is a sell job), strange
> products(RS-485, LonWorks,..), Windows, Unisys interfaces, blah,.. - nothing
> is too strange or specialized.
>
> Thanks
>
>

From jjabson at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  6 17:01:03 2006
From: jjabson at yahoo.com (Jerome Jabson)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 08:01:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] python newbie
Message-ID: <20060306160103.1791.qmail@web53706.mail.yahoo.com>

I'm having problems trying to parse a text file and
separating it's contents into a dictionary. The file
as something like:

name
This is the description of the name.

another_name
Another description of this name.

The dictionary should look like:

dict = {name: This is the description of the name.,
another_name: Another discription of this name}

I tried doing something like:

dict = {}
f = open("text-file", "r)
for line in f:
   items = line
    dict[items[0]] = items[1:]
print dict

but the dictionary comes out all wrong! :-( Can
someone give me some pointers on how to do this.

Help is much appreciated!
Jeff

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From jjabson at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  6 17:31:54 2006
From: jjabson at yahoo.com (Jerome Jabson)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 08:31:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] python newbie
In-Reply-To: <20060306160103.1791.qmail@web53706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060306163154.96242.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com>

oops typo: 
f = open("text-file", "r)

should be:
f = open("text-file", "r")

--- Jerome Jabson <jjabson at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm having problems trying to parse a text file and
> separating it's contents into a dictionary. The file
> as something like:
> 
> name
> This is the description of the name.
> 
> another_name
> Another description of this name.
> 
> The dictionary should look like:
> 
> dict = {name: This is the description of the name.,
> another_name: Another discription of this name}
> 
> I tried doing something like:
> 
> dict = {}
> f = open("text-file", "r)
> for line in f:
>    items = line
>     dict[items[0]] = items[1:]
> print dict
> 
> but the dictionary comes out all wrong! :-( Can
> someone give me some pointers on how to do this.
> 
> Help is much appreciated!
> Jeff
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From shaleh at speakeasy.net  Mon Mar  6 17:43:44 2006
From: shaleh at speakeasy.net (Sean Perry)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 08:43:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] python newbie
In-Reply-To: <20060306160103.1791.qmail@web53706.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20060306160103.1791.qmail@web53706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <440C66C0.1080002@speakeasy.net>

Jerome Jabson wrote:
> I'm having problems trying to parse a text file and
> separating it's contents into a dictionary. The file
> as something like:
> 

there is a fabulous list hosted by python.org called 'tutor'. It is 
meant for those new to programming, Python or both. Check it out.

From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Mon Mar  6 17:42:11 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 08:42:11 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] python newbie
In-Reply-To: <20060306163154.96242.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20060306160103.1791.qmail@web53706.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20060306163154.96242.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5538c19b0603060842w2b751e8fy5c480699877d7a51@mail.gmail.com>

Typos like that are why it is usually better to post the
actual code.  For coding problems like this, a
recommended resource is
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-help>

On 3/6/06, Jerome Jabson <jjabson at yahoo.com> wrote:
> oops typo:
> f = open("text-file", "r)
>
> should be:
> f = open("text-file", "r")
>
> --- Jerome Jabson <jjabson at yahoo.com> wrote:

From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Mon Mar  6 17:50:13 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 08:50:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - March 9 - Mountain View Meeting
Message-ID: <5538c19b0603060850s9c2877fu143a36c5ed9e6c59@mail.gmail.com>

I can coordinate the pre-meeting Baypiggies dinner
this Thursday in Mountain View, before the
Baypiggies meeting of PyCon Reviews at Google

The restaurant is Cafe Yulong in downtown Mountain View.
743 W Dana Street, 1/2 block from Castro where
Books, Inc is on the corner.
Parking lots all around, but downtown Mountain View
parking is still difficult.

It is a slightly out of the ordinary Chinese
restaurant.  This link has a downtown map and
additional information.
http://www.mountainviewca.net/restaurants/cafeyulong.html

I've made reservations under "Python" for 6pm
Thursday. We will probably be in the back room.

If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me
by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I confirm
the headcount. We've had very good turnouts
recently.

From annaraven at gmail.com  Mon Mar  6 18:05:07 2006
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 09:05:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] python newbie
In-Reply-To: <20060306160103.1791.qmail@web53706.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20060306160103.1791.qmail@web53706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610603060905n1991a021y67f4ceb731d22f44@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/6/06, Jerome Jabson <jjabson at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I'm having problems trying to parse a text file and
> separating it's contents into a dictionary. The file
> as something like:
>
> name
> This is the description of the name.
>
> another_name
> Another description of this name.
>
> The dictionary should look like:
>
> dict = {name: This is the description of the name.,
> another_name: Another discription of this name}
>
> I tried doing something like:
>
> dict = {}


don't ever use builtin names for variable names. It'll bite you.
mydict = {}


f = open("text-file", "r)
> for line in f:
>    items = line
>     dict[items[0]] = items[1:]
> print dict




but the dictionary comes out all wrong! :-(



Describe "all wrong"? From your code above, I suspect you get the first
letter of the name as the key, rather than the whole name. You need to split
the line into separate words then rejoin them with ' '.join() for the value.


Can
> someone give me some pointers on how to do this.



f = open("namer.txt", "r")

mydict = {}

for line in f:
   l = line.split()
   mydict[l[0]] = ' '.join(l[1:])

print mydict


HTH
Anna
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From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  6 18:05:20 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 09:05:20 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - March 9 - Mountain View
	Meeting
In-Reply-To: <5538c19b0603060850s9c2877fu143a36c5ed9e6c59@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5538c19b0603060850s9c2877fu143a36c5ed9e6c59@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0603060905m9f109f3oca60e4f931478978@mail.gmail.com>

Was the list down at all?
 do we have speakers for this months meeting?
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From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  6 18:15:18 2006
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 09:15:18 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] python newbie
In-Reply-To: <20060306160103.1791.qmail@web53706.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20060306160103.1791.qmail@web53706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <op.s5z4vsktoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

I'd introduce the zen of Python programming, the "print" statement.

dict = {}
f = open("text-file", "r)
for line in f:
    items = line

    # add this an temp working aid
    print 'line - ', items[0], ',', items[1:]

    dict[items[0]] = items[1:]
print dict


It helps you visualize what "item" really looks like. It is not what you  
think.

In this case you should build a little state machine to handle the sequence

   NAME, VALUE, SEPARATOR, NAME, VALUE, SEPARATOR, ... and so on.

There you also have a chance to decide how flexiable you want to allow the  
separators, EOF condition, etc.

Wai Yip


> I'm having problems trying to parse a text file and
> separating it's contents into a dictionary. The file
> as something like:
>
> name
> This is the description of the name.
>
> another_name
> Another description of this name.
>
> The dictionary should look like:
>
> dict = {name: This is the description of the name.,
> another_name: Another discription of this name}
>
> I tried doing something like:
>
> dict = {}
> f = open("text-file", "r)
> for line in f:
>    items = line
>     dict[items[0]] = items[1:]
> print dict
>
> but the dictionary comes out all wrong! :-( Can
> someone give me some pointers on how to do this.
>
> Help is much appreciated!
> Jeff
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From wescpy at gmail.com  Mon Mar  6 19:37:42 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 10:37:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon review volunteers?
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603061037p408cba0ic2fdeb305a6fa497@mail.gmail.com>

Those who went to PyCon in Dallas have had time to dry out now, and
that is the topic of this month's talk.  If you went to PyCon and
would like to give a brief overview of the talk(s) you went to, please
be prepared to tell everyone about your experience(s).

We'll solicit volunteers live during the meeting but if you'd like to
tell us ahead of time which one(s) you're reviewing, send a msg to
Baypiggies-owners at python.org

there have already been some writeups as well as blogged details online:

http://linuxgazette.net/124/orr.html
http://codeslinger.com/summary.html
http://www.sauria.com/blog/computers/programming/python/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uhop/sets/72057594070445239/

see you at Google thursday... those at Google: pls reserve a room for us!  :-)

-wesley

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Mar  6 20:41:19 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:41:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Agenda - March 9 - Mountain View Meeting
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0603060905m9f109f3oca60e4f931478978@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5538c19b0603060850s9c2877fu143a36c5ed9e6c59@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0603060905m9f109f3oca60e4f931478978@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060306194119.GA19382@panix.com>

On Mon, Mar 06, 2006, Tony C wrote:
>
> Was the list down at all? do we have speakers for this months meeting?

The theory is that this month we get PyCon reports from whoever wants to
deliver them.  Because PyCon just ended, we probably won't get too
formal about scheduling.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From guido at python.org  Mon Mar  6 21:56:44 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 12:56:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Agenda - March 9 - Mountain View Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20060306194119.GA19382@panix.com>
References: <5538c19b0603060850s9c2877fu143a36c5ed9e6c59@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0603060905m9f109f3oca60e4f931478978@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060306194119.GA19382@panix.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20603061256v6af271a6x34b22ecebefcd77a@mail.gmail.com>

Who's in charge of updating baypiggies.net? The Feb meeting is still
listed prominently; for the March meeting you have to scroll way down.

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From nnorwitz at gmail.com  Mon Mar  6 22:13:03 2006
From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 13:13:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon review volunteers?
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580603061037p408cba0ic2fdeb305a6fa497@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78b3a9580603061037p408cba0ic2fdeb305a6fa497@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee2a432c0603061313n699b10e8ia722497939f49b92@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/6/06, w chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> see you at Google thursday... those at Google: pls reserve a room for us!  :-)

Tunis is reserved.  That's the room on the second floor of Building 43
up the big steps and to the left from the main lobby.  We'll meet in
the lobby of Building 43 starting at 7.15 pm.

n

From wescpy at gmail.com  Mon Mar  6 22:19:42 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 13:19:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Agenda - March 9 - Mountain View Meeting
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20603061256v6af271a6x34b22ecebefcd77a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5538c19b0603060850s9c2877fu143a36c5ed9e6c59@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0603060905m9f109f3oca60e4f931478978@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060306194119.GA19382@panix.com>
	<ca471dc20603061256v6af271a6x34b22ecebefcd77a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603061319o43a58a53ub477194ea71a75d6@mail.gmail.com>

website updated, and neal has confirmed the room.  -wesley


On 3/6/06, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> Who's in charge of updating baypiggies.net? The Feb meeting is still
> listed prominently; for the March meeting you have to scroll way down.

From scottyg at CSUA.Berkeley.EDU  Tue Mar  7 17:16:25 2006
From: scottyg at CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Garrison)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 08:16:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting
In-Reply-To: <mailman.69.1141729221.24273.baypiggies@python.org>
References: <mailman.69.1141729221.24273.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <20060307081150.E92038@soda.csua.berkeley.edu>

Hi All,

Is anyone going to the Python meeting from the East Bay (Oakland or 
Berkeley) with whom I can share a ride?  I've been lurking on this list 
for awhile and would like to finally go to a meeting.

Please drop me a line.  scottyg at csua.berkeley.edu

Thanks,
Scott


From wescpy at gmail.com  Tue Mar  7 19:20:58 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 10:20:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ANN: 2006 Python training courses, San Francisco
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603071020k59e65356rc8f9279181a826d2@mail.gmail.com>

WE are giving 4 more Python training sessions (held near the San
Francisco airport) for the remainder of this year.

For the first time, there will be an "advanced" Python course
available to the public.  In fact, we've added the March intro course
date for those prepping to take the advanced class in May.  You may
register for any of the 4 courses/dates below.

(Intensive) Introduction to Python
March 29-31, 2006
August 16-18, 2006

Advanced Python Programming
May 17-19, 2006
November 8-10, 2006

LOCALS: it'll be at a hotel with BART and CalTrain access (San Bruno stations)

VISITORS: free shuttle directly from the San Francisco airport, lots
of free food and wireless

DISCOUNTS available. for more info and details, go to
http://cyberwebconsulting.com and click "Python training."

cheers,
-wesley

ps. a great big public THANKS to Rob Stephenson for putting together
the short PodCast clip of one of our training sessions for your
viewing pleasure on a video iPod or iTunes on your Mac!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2006,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Mar  7 20:55:32 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 11:55:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: March 9, 7:30pm (Google)
Message-ID: <20060307195532.GA1751@panix.com>

The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, March 9 at 7:30pm at
Google.

This meeting features a PyCon report from Guido van Rossum and possibly
others.


BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California)
and Google (Mountain View, California).  For more information and
directions, see http://baypiggies.net/


Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner.  Discussion of
dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list.  

Advance notice:  We need a speaker for April.  Please e-mail
baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to
give a presentation).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Tue Mar  7 22:12:28 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 13:12:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] python newbie
In-Reply-To: <440C66C0.1080002@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603071309190.1758-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 6 Mar 2006, Sean Perry wrote:

> Jerome Jabson wrote:
> > I'm having problems trying to parse a text file and
> > separating it's contents into a dictionary. The file
> > as something like:
> > 
> 
> there is a fabulous list hosted by python.org called 'tutor'. It is 
> meant for those new to programming, Python or both. Check it out.

Yes!  The tutor list is a collection of the most patient, generous and
knowledgeable teachers of Python imaginable.

I you want a short class, there's an economical and efficient one this
weekend: $495 in a nice lab in Cupertino.  

The class is motivated by a series of lab exercises.  It's fun.

http://www.ucsc-extension.edu/ucsc/public/category/courseDetails.do?method=load&courseId=3007541&selectedCategoryId=1000075&selectedProgramAreaId=1000171&selectedProgramStreamId=1528553

Marilyn Davis
http://www.deliberate.com/marilyn


> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From wescpy at gmail.com  Wed Mar  8 00:22:10 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 15:22:10 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python opening for kids in Seattle
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603071522k7dcbfeb0xa7372ae64caa60b2@mail.gmail.com>

Tired of the real estate prices around here and want to move up to the
Pacific Northwest to help kids out and program full-time in Python?!? 
:-)

The hiring manager from Seattle Public Schools asked me to post this
job-listing on her behalf.  If you're interested in the position, her
contact info is at the bottom.

cheers,
-wesley


Programmer / Analyst III

Seattle Public Schools has an opening in our Department of Technology
Services for a Programmer / Analyst III ). We are seeking a Programmer
Analyst who has 3+ years experience, 2 or more with Microsoft
development tools. You will work in a collaborative team environment and
be responsible for evaluating, analyzing, and designing programs and
small systems. Must be able to create detailed system and program
specifications from written and verbal functional requirements. Write
and maintain complex programs, develop and use test plans for programs
and applications.

We offer challenging work on a variety of platforms, and a work life
style that recognizes the need to balance work with family and other
activities.

The starting salary is $3674 - $4376 (mid-step)/month depending on
qualifications and experience. This is a full-year position. The
benefits package includes medical, dental, vision, and long-term
disability insurance. In addition, this position is eligible for 12 paid
holidays, 2 personal days, 12 sick days per year, and 18 vacation days.
We are located just South of Safeco Field and have free parking.

Qualifications

Must possess:
* AA Degree in mathematics, computer science, or a related field
* Three (3) or more years of relevant work experience
* Comprehensive understanding of and experience in developing
application systems in an internet or web-based environment
* Software support and maintenance experience

Skill in:
* Microsoft Visual Studio, ASP.Net, C#, VB.Net
* SQL Server 2000, Oracle 9i/10g
* Dreamweaver, HTML, XML, XSLT
* Java
* Microsoft SharePoint Server

Ability to:
* Develop and maintain complex programs
* Develop and use test plans to test programs and applications
* Perform related duties consistent with the scope and intent of the
position

Licenses/Special Requirements:
* Valid Washington State Driver's License or evidence of equivalent
mobility



Ramona Pierson

Project Manager; SOURCE
Technology Services
Seattle Public Schools
206-252-0316
rjpierson at seattleschools.org

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Mar  8 00:40:45 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 15:40:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python opening for kids in Seattle
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580603071522k7dcbfeb0xa7372ae64caa60b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78b3a9580603071522k7dcbfeb0xa7372ae64caa60b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060307234045.GA1683@panix.com>

On Tue, Mar 07, 2006, w chun wrote:
>
> Tired of the real estate prices around here and want to move up to the
> Pacific Northwest to help kids out and program full-time in Python?!? 
> :-)
> 
> The hiring manager from Seattle Public Schools asked me to post this
> job-listing on her behalf.  If you're interested in the position, her
> contact info is at the bottom.

Uhhhhh....  Where's the Python job requirement?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From grasshopperwisdom at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  8 01:43:11 2006
From: grasshopperwisdom at yahoo.com (cindy mason)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 16:43:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Trade python lessons for chinese massage
In-Reply-To: <D42A482A-7DA5-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>
Message-ID: <20060308004311.80275.qmail@web35612.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

HI,

I'm a massuese and am interested in trading lessons in
python for
chinese bodywork.   This is a serious request, I am 
very interested
in learning, I have worked as a masseuse in a hospital
for 3 years
and am state certified.  I also do a Japanese form of
bodywork known
as Jin Shin Jyutsu, and also teach self care japanese
acupressure if you
are intersted, you can check me out on
www.21stcenturymed.org

I would like to have references and will provide
references on my end
as well. 

I live in Palo Alto, but can bring my laptop...    I
have a g5 at the house,
or a win2000 laptop.   I have a table.

Cheers,
Grasshopper

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From wescpy at gmail.com  Wed Mar  8 02:27:46 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 17:27:46 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python opening for kids in Seattle
In-Reply-To: <20060307234045.GA1683@panix.com>
References: <78b3a9580603071522k7dcbfeb0xa7372ae64caa60b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060307234045.GA1683@panix.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603071727v3682ec28q1cfeeac063e0ffb3@mail.gmail.com>

Updated job description below.  Sorry for the confusion and delete the
previous desecription.  If you have further questions about the
position, pls contact Ramona directly.

thanks,
-wesley

Programmer / Analyst III

Seattle Public Schools has an opening in our Department of Technology
Services for a Programmer / Analyst III ). We are seeking a Programmer
Analyst who has 3+ years experience, 2 or more with Python development
experience. You will work in a collaborative team environment and be
responsible for evaluating, analyzing, and designing programs and small
systems. Must be able to create detailed system and program
specifications from written and verbal functional requirements. Write
and maintain complex programs, develop and use test plans for programs
and applications.

We offer challenging work on a variety of platforms, and a work life
style that recognizes the need to balance work with family and other
activities.

The starting salary is $3674 - $4376 (mid-step)/month depending on
qualifications and experience. This is a full-year position. The
benefits package includes medical, dental, vision, and long-term
disability insurance. In addition, this position is eligible for 12 paid
holidays, 2 personal days, 12 sick days per year, and 18 vacation days.
We are located just South of Safeco Field and have free parking.

Qualifications

Must possess:
* AA Degree in mathematics, computer science, or a related field
* Three (3) or more years of relevant work experience
* Comprehensive understanding of and experience in developing
application systems in an internet or web-based environment
* Software support and maintenance experience

Skill in:
* Python; mod_python
* SQL Server 2005, MySQL
* Dreamweaver, HTML, XML, CSS
* Java

Ability to:
* Develop and maintain complex programs
* Develop and use test plans to test programs and applications
* Perform related duties consistent with the scope and intent of the
position

Licenses/Special Requirements:
* Valid Washington State Driver's License or evidence of equivalent
mobility


Ramona Pierson
Project Manager; SOURCE
Technology Services
Seattle Public Schools
206-252-0316
rjpierson at seattleschools.org

From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  8 03:44:46 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 18:44:46 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley 3rd edition heads up
Message-ID: <BAY108-F61CE1508464048F7CEE598FEF0@phx.gbl>

When I walked in a bookstore and saw the 3rd edition of David Beazley's 
Python Essential Reference I was surprised that no one had mentioned it at 
the previous Python meeting. Its on the python.org web site under books - 
not something I often look at. I bought my copy at digital guru and have 
seen it in B&N in case you can't wait for amazon.



From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Wed Mar  8 06:32:04 2006
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 21:32:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley 3rd edition heads up
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F61CE1508464048F7CEE598FEF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603072130410.30009-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>



On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, John J. Dooley wrote:

> When I walked in a bookstore and saw the 3rd edition of David Beazley's
> Python Essential Reference I was surprised that no one had mentioned it
> at the previous Python meeting. Its on the python.org web site under
> books - not something I often look at. I bought my copy at digital guru
> and have seen it in B&N in case you can't wait for amazon.

I had very fond memories of the 2nd edition; thanks for the heads up!  I
will definitely take a look at this.


From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  8 08:06:02 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 23:06:02 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley 3rd edition heads up
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F61CE1508464048F7CEE598FEF0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F61CE1508464048F7CEE598FEF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0603072306k1acda008xb0c99b3b1c6320@mail.gmail.com>

Amazon & Half.com have it for $22 New

On 3/7/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> When I walked in a bookstore and saw the 3rd edition of David Beazley's
> Python Essential Reference I was surprised that no one had mentioned it at
> the previous Python meeting. Its on the python.org web site under books -
> not something I often look at. I bought my copy at digital guru and have
> seen it in B&N in case you can't wait for amazon.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  8 08:07:13 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 23:07:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley 3rd edition heads up
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603072130410.30009-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
References: <BAY108-F61CE1508464048F7CEE598FEF0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0603072130410.30009-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0603072307p4c10ff96h6249b7d5eff9aa66@mail.gmail.com>

Amazon & Half.com have it listed for $22 (new)

On 3/7/06, Danny Yoo <dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, John J. Dooley wrote:
>
> > When I walked in a bookstore and saw the 3rd edition of David Beazley's
> > Python Essential Reference I was surprised that no one had mentioned it
> > at the previous Python meeting. Its on the python.org web site under
> > books - not something I often look at. I bought my copy at digital guru
> > and have seen it in B&N in case you can't wait for amazon.
>
> I had very fond memories of the 2nd edition; thanks for the heads up!  I
> will definitely take a look at this.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  8 12:28:49 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 03:28:49 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies]  Beazley 3rd edition heads up
Message-ID: <BAY103-F99F9C57710A2FFCE739EAA0EF0@phx.gbl>


John, I've actually recommended this book but twice at previous Python mtgs.
In my opinion it's the clearest and most concise Python reference.

When I mentioned it last November at Google, Guido said that the book was 
dormant and that Beazley had no plans to issue a 3rd issue to supersede the 
2nd issue/ Python 2.2 version.
(It is true that Beazley never replies to email because I sent him a 4-page 
list of corrections/suggestions way back for his 1st ed, and never heard 
anything.)

I guess the best thing is to set an Amazon author alert on David Beazley.

http://wiki.python.org/moin/ReferenceBooks?highlight=%28beazley%29

Regards,
Stephen

    On 3/7/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com > wrote:

When I walked in a bookstore and saw the 3rd edition of David Beazley's 
Python Essential Reference I was surprised that no one had mentioned it at
the previous Python meeting. Its on the python.org web site under books -
not something I often look at. I bought my copy at digital guru and have 
seen it in B&N in case you can't wait for amazon.

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From: "Stephen McInerney" <spmcinerney at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley 3rd edition heads up 
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 01:17:57 -0800
Size: 2550
Url: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060308/4204201e/attachment.mht 

From wescpy at gmail.com  Wed Mar  8 19:21:40 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 10:21:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley 3rd edition heads up
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F99F9C57710A2FFCE739EAA0EF0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F99F9C57710A2FFCE739EAA0EF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603081021x5db6719la8e743bf61cabce@mail.gmail.com>

PER was the 1st "real" reference for Python.  he basically condensed
volumes of the Python library reference into something manageable that
could be taken with oneself for your commute to work. since then, Alex
has come out with the long-anticipated O'Reilly Nutshell book,
probably a little late to capture the market, but still, it's an ORA
Nutshell title.

The 3rd ed of PER hasn't been mentioned before because it was just
released the week of PyCon.  It would've probly gotten some mention at
tomorrow nite's meeting for those who went to PyCon saw the book. 
FWIW, the booksigning on saturday nite, the bookstore had to special
order the book to be direct-shipped from the printer (bypassing normal
distribution channels) to get 40 copies available for David to sign
that evening.  It sold out in 30min.

I had a chance to catch up with David in the halls.  He's a great guy,
and it's true that he hadn't had plans to rev the book for the longest
time, but recent changes in his career have given him the opportunity
to work on and finish this long-anticipated update.  Be aware,
however, that altho the artwork resembles the previous two editions,
NewRiders has actually been acquired by PeachPit and merged into the
massive Pearson family, which also includes imprints such as Prentice
Hall and Addison Wesley.  The 3rd ed of PER is published by Sams, an
imprint whose editorial staff I haven't been very fond of over the
years.  Still, the source material is probably very good, and they
couldn't have "messed it up *that* badly."

cheers,
-wesley

From sesquile at gmail.com  Wed Mar  8 19:39:59 2006
From: sesquile at gmail.com (m h)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 10:39:59 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley 3rd edition heads up
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580603081021x5db6719la8e743bf61cabce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY103-F99F9C57710A2FFCE739EAA0EF0@phx.gbl>
	<78b3a9580603081021x5db6719la8e743bf61cabce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e36b84ee0603081039o2839d11as94c7f5fbc4504182@mail.gmail.com>

I was one of the lucky few who got a copy at PyCon.  I'll try to
remember to bring it tomorrow night if anyone is interested in looking
at it.

I have a pretty hammered 1st edition.  Since I have more of a
photographic memory, I prefer physical books, rather than online
references.  But recently the staleness of the old version was getting
to me and I was hitting docs.python.org quite a bit.  I make notes in
my reference books, and use them instead of memorizing stuff (try not
to clutter my brain).

Some initial thoughts:
* The book is about twice as thick.  (I consider this bad, since I
like the K&R like size of the old version)
* The new index is about 75 pages vs 45 for the old
* The margins on the pages are a bit smaller (bad for people who like
to markup their book).
* Even with the increased size, some libraries recieve very little
treatment.  (One example is distutils/setup.py)

-matt

On 3/8/06, w chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> PER was the 1st "real" reference for Python.  he basically condensed
> volumes of the Python library reference into something manageable that
> could be taken with oneself for your commute to work. since then, Alex
> has come out with the long-anticipated O'Reilly Nutshell book,
> probably a little late to capture the market, but still, it's an ORA
> Nutshell title.
>
> The 3rd ed of PER hasn't been mentioned before because it was just
> released the week of PyCon.  It would've probly gotten some mention at
> tomorrow nite's meeting for those who went to PyCon saw the book.
> FWIW, the booksigning on saturday nite, the bookstore had to special
> order the book to be direct-shipped from the printer (bypassing normal
> distribution channels) to get 40 copies available for David to sign
> that evening.  It sold out in 30min.
>
> I had a chance to catch up with David in the halls.  He's a great guy,
> and it's true that he hadn't had plans to rev the book for the longest
> time, but recent changes in his career have given him the opportunity
> to work on and finish this long-anticipated update.  Be aware,
> however, that altho the artwork resembles the previous two editions,
> NewRiders has actually been acquired by PeachPit and merged into the
> massive Pearson family, which also includes imprints such as Prentice
> Hall and Addison Wesley.  The 3rd ed of PER is published by Sams, an
> imprint whose editorial staff I haven't been very fond of over the
> years.  Still, the source material is probably very good, and they
> couldn't have "messed it up *that* badly."
>
> cheers,
> -wesley
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From Steve at aMadMan.com  Wed Mar  8 21:03:29 2006
From: Steve at aMadMan.com (Steve V.)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:03:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New to python - Printing
Message-ID: <005301c642eb$5ec38ee0$7f01a8c0@apf.com>

I am new to python and really like what ive seen so far.  i am trying
to get a good feel for it and see where it is usefull and where it
isnt.  my question is in regards to python and printing (physically
printing to a printer through unix).  ive read up on gnome-print,
libgnomeprint(ui), cups and just about everything else i can think of
but find little results. also, i tried looking through this list
archive but didnt find a search option (am i looking in the wrong
spot?) so this has landed me here.  your help and suggestions would be
greatly appreciated.   the only thing ive found is that python(or
pygtk) does have bindings for gnome-print but i have yet to find any
examples.

so my newb question is this:

Is printing through python do-able or am i barking up the wrong tree
with the wrong tool.

if it is something worthwhile to look into, any idears or points in
the right direction you could show me?

~Steve
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From allison at shasta.stanford.edu  Wed Mar  8 21:10:29 2006
From: allison at shasta.stanford.edu (Dennis Allison)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:10:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] New to python - Printing
In-Reply-To: <005301c642eb$5ec38ee0$7f01a8c0@apf.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603081206110.5436-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>


It's not clear what you mean.

Python reads and writes and manipulates files.

Python can "print" to std.out and to any file object.  Print has slightly 
different semantics than write.

Python can interface to most utilities both in the Linux/Uniz world and 
also in the Windows world.  

There are specialized packages written for and/or written in Python which 
do specialized "printing like" functions.  See, for example, 
http://www.Reportlab.com for a PDF generation system.




On Wed, 8 Mar 2006, Steve V. wrote:

> I am new to python and really like what ive seen so far.  i am trying
> to get a good feel for it and see where it is usefull and where it
> isnt.  my question is in regards to python and printing (physically
> printing to a printer through unix).  ive read up on gnome-print,
> libgnomeprint(ui), cups and just about everything else i can think of
> but find little results. also, i tried looking through this list
> archive but didnt find a search option (am i looking in the wrong
> spot?) so this has landed me here.  your help and suggestions would be
> greatly appreciated.   the only thing ive found is that python(or
> pygtk) does have bindings for gnome-print but i have yet to find any
> examples.
> 
> so my newb question is this:
> 
> Is printing through python do-able or am i barking up the wrong tree
> with the wrong tool.
> 
> if it is something worthwhile to look into, any idears or points in
> the right direction you could show me?
> 
> ~Steve
> 

-- 


From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Mar  8 22:41:32 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 13:41:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New to python - Printing
In-Reply-To: <005301c642eb$5ec38ee0$7f01a8c0@apf.com>
References: <005301c642eb$5ec38ee0$7f01a8c0@apf.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603081341p85f67f0h69e3e8971c3ab23a@mail.gmail.com>

Steve,

I think you'll need to read about gnome-print--i.e. how to print under
GNOME in C.  There's probably more information on that.  Once you
understand it in C, it's usually easy to figure out how to use the
bindings.  It's very often the case that the documentation for how to
use the bindings is far smaller than the documentation for how to use
the library itself.  Alternatively, find a program that uses the
Python bindings for gnome-print and see how they do it.

I think it's fair to say that most Python programmers have never used
gnome-print.

Best of Luck,
-jj

On 3/8/06, Steve V. <Steve at amadman.com> wrote:
>
> I am new to python and really like what ive seen so far.  i am trying to get
> a good feel for it and see where it is usefull and where it isnt.  my
> question is in regards to python and printing (physically printing to a
> printer through unix).  ive read up on gnome-print, libgnomeprint(ui), cups
> and just about everything else i can think of but find little results. also,
> i tried looking through this list archive but didnt find a search option (am
> i looking in the wrong spot?) so this has landed me here.  your help and
> suggestions would be greatly appreciated.   the only thing ive found is that
> python(or pygtk) does have bindings for gnome-print but i have yet to find
> any examples.
>
> so my newb question is this:
>
> Is printing through python do-able or am i barking up the wrong tree with
> the wrong tool.
>
> if it is something worthwhile to look into, any idears or points in the
> right direction you could show me?
>
>
> ~Steve
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>

From kbyanc at posi.net  Thu Mar  9 00:13:56 2006
From: kbyanc at posi.net (Kelly Yancey)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 15:13:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Software engineer wanted for Python + wxPython(MSW)
 development in Palo Alto
Message-ID: <20060308151255.F92174@gateway.posi.net>


   NTTMCL, a small research and development subsidiary of one Japan's
NTT, is looking for a software engineer to join a project developing
Windows client software implemented in python.  When the project is
completed, the software will be distributed to hundreds of thousands of
people in Japan.  We have already delivered an initial working version
to our Japanese parent company, but additional features must be
implemented before they will distribute it to the public.
   The product consists of client and server components, both
implemented in python.  In addition, we are using wxPython for the
client's user interface, sqlite (via pysqlite) for the client-side
database, and postgresql (via pyPgSQL) for the server-side database.  In
addition to extending the existing product, we'll also be porting the
client to more flavors of Windows including Windows Mobile 5.  You would
be working in a small team of two or three people, including myself;
feel free to e-mail me directly if you have any questions.

http://www.nttmcl.com/careers_opps_details.php?jobNumber=3WIN06

  Thanks,

  Kelly
-- 
Kelly Yancey  -  kbyanc@{posi.net,FreeBSD.org}  -  kelly at nttmcl.com

From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  9 06:35:59 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 21:35:59 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley's PER high rank on Amazon
Message-ID: <BAY108-F5B6BC488B55E0CFFDDAE38FEC0@phx.gbl>

The last Python meeting we were all in the dark ;) about the PER 3rd 
edition. In fact the entire meeting was held in the dark. The power failed 
and was out for the entire meeting for those of you that didn't make it to 
IronPort.

I just checked amazon and it was 1821th best seller of all books and 89th of 
all computer books. Pretty impressive. I wonder how that translates into # 
of copies?



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  9 06:41:30 2006
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 21:41:30 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley 3rd edition heads up
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F99F9C57710A2FFCE739EAA0EF0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F99F9C57710A2FFCE739EAA0EF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5E7788D9-7A66-4807-8FB2-FF9A67BDEBB2@yahoo.com>


On Mar 8, 2006, at 3:28 AM, Stephen McInerney wrote:

> John, I've actually recommended this book but twice at previous  
> Python mtgs.
> In my opinion it's the clearest and most concise Python reference.

True, it's 625 pages in the current edition vs the Nutshell's 636, so  
it still IS "most concise";-).

(OTOH, it's thicker than the Nutshell, the difference no doubt being  
due to paper-choice issues;-).


Alex


From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Mar  9 16:29:10 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:29:10 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - March 9 - Mountain View
 Meeting
In-Reply-To: <5538c19b0603060850s9c2877fu143a36c5ed9e6c59@mail.gmail.com
 >
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060309072755.00bf5cd8@localhost>

At 08:50 AM 3/6/2006, Brian Mahoney wrote:
>I can coordinate the pre-meeting Baypiggies dinner
>
>The restaurant is Cafe Yulong in downtown Mountain View.
>743 W Dana Street, 1/2 block from Castro where
>Books, Inc is on the corner.

What time should we meet?


----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  9 21:32:50 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 12:32:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley 3rd edition heads up
In-Reply-To: <5E7788D9-7A66-4807-8FB2-FF9A67BDEBB2@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F27A97C607AA1F40AC5363FA0EC0@phx.gbl>


"Concise" in the sense of "fastest introduction to someone who can already
program say PERL, Tcl, C" which is content of the first ~100 pages.

Regards,
Stephen

>From: Alex Martelli <aleaxit at yahoo.com>
>To: "Stephen McInerney" <spmcinerney at hotmail.com>
>CC: jxd6 at hotmail.com, baypiggies at python.org
>Subject: Re: [Baypiggies]  Beazley 3rd edition heads up
>Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 21:41:30 -0800
>
>
>On Mar 8, 2006, at 3:28 AM, Stephen McInerney wrote:
>
>>John, I've actually recommended this book but twice at previous  Python 
>>mtgs.
>>In my opinion it's the clearest and most concise Python reference.
>
>True, it's 625 pages in the current edition vs the Nutshell's 636, so  it 
>still IS "most concise";-).
>
>(OTOH, it's thicker than the Nutshell, the difference no doubt being  due 
>to paper-choice issues;-).
>
>
>Alex
>



From aleax at google.com  Thu Mar  9 22:57:53 2006
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 13:57:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley 3rd edition heads up
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F27A97C607AA1F40AC5363FA0EC0@phx.gbl>
References: <5E7788D9-7A66-4807-8FB2-FF9A67BDEBB2@yahoo.com>
	<BAY103-F27A97C607AA1F40AC5363FA0EC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0603091357x43a580c7v8a6984dfec3521f5@mail.google.com>

On 3/9/06, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Concise" in the sense of "fastest introduction to someone who can already
> program say PERL, Tcl, C" which is content of the first ~100 pages.

I am, of course, biased, but I believe that pages 29-104 of the
Nutshell (chapters 4 and 5) are in the running for this "fastest"
title -- admittedly, it does then take me almost as much space to
cover exceptions, modules/packages, core built-ins, strings, and REs
-- but, funny enough, I had never before seen this "kernel" of the
Nutshell criticized as too slow (or non-concise).


Alex

From dennisobrien.net at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 23:51:08 2006
From: dennisobrien.net at gmail.com (Dennis O'Brien)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 14:51:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20060307081150.E92038@soda.csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <mailman.69.1141729221.24273.baypiggies@python.org>
	<20060307081150.E92038@soda.csua.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <8f6f2d7e0603091451s976698foddf2375e7119a1b0@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm looking for a ride from Emeryville to the meeting tonight.  I've also
been lurking for a while and the thought of hearing reports from PyCon
sounds like a great reason to make the trip.  If anyone is driving from the
East Bay and doesn't mind another passenger, please get in touch.
dennisobrien.net _at_ gmail.com

Thanks,
     Dennis


On 3/7/06, Scott Garrison <scottyg at csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Is anyone going to the Python meeting from the East Bay (Oakland or
> Berkeley) with whom I can share a ride?  I've been lurking on this list
> for awhile and would like to finally go to a meeting.
>
> Please drop me a line.  scottyg at csua.berkeley.edu
>
> Thanks,
> Scott
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From guido at python.org  Thu Mar  9 23:58:56 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 14:58:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley's PER high rank on Amazon
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F5B6BC488B55E0CFFDDAE38FEC0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F5B6BC488B55E0CFFDDAE38FEC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20603091458t55331830l28e2271190dffbd4@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/8/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> The last Python meeting we were all in the dark ;) about the PER 3rd
> edition. In fact the entire meeting was held in the dark. The power failed
> and was out for the entire meeting for those of you that didn't make it to
> IronPort.

Is this somehow a sign about IronPort?

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 23:59:40 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 14:59:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting in the EB sometime?
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603091459r76bccefct32beecee82e29a11@mail.gmail.com>

hi everyone,

i'm seeing more and more folks having to come over from the east bay,
and i *know* there is a good size Python crew out there.  does ANYONE
in the east bay have or know of a place that we could meet if we
wanted to hosting a BayPIGgies gathering over there?

requirements (am i missing any?):

- seating for 30-70 ppl
- SVGA/XGA projector
- (unsecured hopefully) access to bathrooms and water
- working power (*snickers*)
- nearby food (hopefully walking distance)

please send private e-mail to us at baypiggies-owner at python.org if you
think you may be able to help your fellow EB Pythoneers.

best,
-wesley


On 3/9/06, Dennis O'Brien <dennisobrien.net at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking for a ride from Emeryville to the meeting tonight.  I've also
> been lurking for a while and the thought of hearing reports from PyCon
> sounds like a great reason to make the trip.  If anyone is driving from the
> East Bay and doesn't mind another passenger, please get in touch.
> dennisobrien.net _at_ gmail.com
>
> Thanks,
>      Dennis
>
>
> On 3/7/06, Scott Garrison <scottyg at csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Is anyone going to the Python meeting from the East Bay (Oakland or
> > Berkeley) with whom I can share a ride?  I've been lurking on this list
> > for awhile and would like to finally go to a meeting.
> >
> > Please drop me a line.  scottyg at csua.berkeley.edu
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Scott

From wescpy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 00:04:27 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:04:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beazley's PER high rank on Amazon
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20603091458t55331830l28e2271190dffbd4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY108-F5B6BC488B55E0CFFDDAE38FEC0@phx.gbl>
	<ca471dc20603091458t55331830l28e2271190dffbd4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603091504q3b559924gdd01f4e71ed4d7e1@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/9/06, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> On 3/8/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The last Python meeting we were all in the dark ;) about the PER 3rd
> > edition. In fact the entire meeting was held in the dark. The power failed
> > and was out for the entire meeting for those of you that didn't make it to
> > IronPort.
>
> Is this somehow a sign about IronPort?


hopefully not... i'm still a shareholder! :-)  BUT, i will have to say
that the power going out is a cronic problem.  there have been days
when upon arriving to the office, one finds that the power is gone
with no estimated time of return, and security sends us home for the
day.  that happens more than 4 times a year.  i don't know how that
power grid works, but it sure doesn't work well, which is slightly
scary since it's so close to SFO.  i can't imagine how much it costs
the company in business when we can't help anyone, esp. since the
phones are digital and can't run without power.

regards,
-wesley

ps. it was a 1st time for me participating in a BayPIGgies meeting
completely in the dark.  you sure had to use your imagination!  ;-)

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 00:41:37 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:41:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting in the EB sometime?
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580603091459r76bccefct32beecee82e29a11@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78b3a9580603091459r76bccefct32beecee82e29a11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603091541y7469acd1r4695e370ba78267@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/9/06, w chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> hi everyone,
>
> i'm seeing more and more folks having to come over from the east bay,
> and i *know* there is a good size Python crew out there.  does ANYONE
> in the east bay have or know of a place that we could meet if we
> wanted to hosting a BayPIGgies gathering over there?
>
> requirements (am i missing any?):
>
> - seating for 30-70 ppl
> - SVGA/XGA projector
> - (unsecured hopefully) access to bathrooms and water
> - working power (*snickers*)

Oh gees, you want access to bathrooms *and* working power?  What, do
you want to have someone take notes for you as well? ;-)  Next you'll
tell me you want access to that thar interweb thingie.

Happy Hacking!
-jj

From craigwharris at comcast.net  Fri Mar 10 01:40:37 2006
From: craigwharris at comcast.net (craig harris)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:40:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Qt with Python-based API strategy?
Message-ID: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>

I'm using Qt as a GUI for a C++ application and would like to use Python to
support an API from inside the app. In this case I'll have to embed (call)
python from Qt to invoke API commands, and then call the C++ engine from
Python to execute most application functions.  Is this scheme even
possible,..or wise?

 

I have read a bit about trying to do this and have gotten the impression
that simultaneously calling python from Qt and vice-verse is very
problematic.  I have also heard about PyQt, and some recommend against this.

 

Any suggestions for a strategy to use Python as an API inside a Qt/C++
application?

 

I was hoping to attend tonight's Bay Piggies meeting but have terrible cold.

 

Thanks,

-Craig

 

 

 

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From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Mar 10 02:04:14 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:04:14 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Qt with Python-based API strategy?
In-Reply-To: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>
References: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603091704o714fd2dfga755883343ab17fd@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/9/06, craig harris <craigwharris at comcast.net> wrote:
> I'm using Qt as a GUI for a C++ application and would like to use Python to
> support an API from inside the app. In this case I'll have to embed (call)
> python from Qt to invoke API commands, and then call the C++ engine from
> Python to execute most application functions.  Is this scheme even
> possible,..or wise?
>
> I have read a bit about trying to do this and have gotten the impression
> that simultaneously calling python from Qt and vice-verse is very
> problematic.  I have also heard about PyQt, and some recommend against this.
>
> Any suggestions for a strategy to use Python as an API inside a Qt/C++
> application?
>
> I was hoping to attend tonight's Bay Piggies meeting but have terrible cold.

As far as embedding Python into C++, I'm guessing that the Boost
library may be helpful.  If you were going the other way, you would
use Swig, of course.  Forgive me if I'm wrong--I'm just remembering a
former BayPiggies talk.

As far as mixing Python, C++, and QT, I think it's good practice with
most widget libraries to, in effect, have a single point of contact
between your code and the widget library.  What I mean is that you
don't want multiple threads talking to the widget library at the same
time, of course.  Just expand on that thinking.  Just imagine that you
don't want QT to know what you're doing behind it's back, and perhaps
you'll be safe.

Of course, like I said, I haven't mixed C++, QT, and Python, although
I have written C++ apps using QT.

I assume your embedding in order to do scripting of your application. 
That makes sense.  When this isn't the case, I've occassionally split
the C++ and Python into separate processes and used a thin RPC
mechanism between them.  That doesn't sound like what you want though.

Happy Hacking!
-jj

From guido at python.org  Fri Mar 10 05:13:50 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 20:13:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon keynote up on Google Video
Message-ID: <ca471dc20603092013v11bf25ccp7b39af0a01af44bd@mail.gmail.com>

Someone put my PyCon keynote up on Google Video. I don't remember
signing a release, but okay, I hereby give my permission. Enjoy!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=60331183357868340

At some point the slides will go up on python.org/essays/ppt/ but they
aren't there yet (I mailed them to Tim Parkin already).

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From dp at ulaluma.com  Fri Mar 10 19:33:52 2006
From: dp at ulaluma.com (Donovan Preston)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 10:33:52 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon keynote up on Google Video
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20603092013v11bf25ccp7b39af0a01af44bd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca471dc20603092013v11bf25ccp7b39af0a01af44bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E10300-A515-483F-AC71-A761ADABC364@ulaluma.com>


On Mar 9, 2006, at 8:13 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> Someone put my PyCon keynote up on Google Video. I don't remember
> signing a release, but okay, I hereby give my permission. Enjoy!
>
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=60331183357868340

Thank you. I enjoyed watching this very much. I have been obscenely  
busy (thought it wasn't possible to be any more busy -- I was wrong!)  
and haven't been following 2.5's development, but now I am very much  
looking forward to it's release. Especially AST branch, which I have  
been waiting for for years.

> At some point the slides will go up on python.org/essays/ppt/ but they
> aren't there yet (I mailed them to Tim Parkin already).

The correct url is http://www.python.org/doc/essays/ppt/

The /essays/ppt/ url is 404, and the 404 page on python.org has the  
old design. Ahh, nostalgia :-)

dp


From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Mar 10 20:11:04 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:11:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon keynote up on Google Video
In-Reply-To: <56E10300-A515-483F-AC71-A761ADABC364@ulaluma.com>
References: <ca471dc20603092013v11bf25ccp7b39af0a01af44bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20603092013v11bf25ccp7b39af0a01af44bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060310110229.00be4400@localhost>

At 10:33 AM 3/10/2006, Donovan Preston wrote:
> > Someone put my PyCon keynote up on Google Video. I don't remember
> > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=60331183357868340
>
>The correct url is http://www.python.org/doc/essays/ppt/

If these are the same material, I have a recommendation which may save 
others time.  Wait until the slides are posted.

The video shows the slides briefly ... too briefly.  Then the video cuts to 
Guido talking about them.  Indeed, in the release schedule slide, the video 
cuts away so fast that I could not read it.  ... and then Guido's comments 
are along the lines that you can read what it says and he will not 
repeat.  Sigh.

This video would be much improved by having the slides available separately 
to compensate for the lack of content focus in the camera work.  Further, 
the video is low enough resolution to make some text difficult to read.

Dennis



----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From mac at Wireless.Com  Fri Mar 10 21:23:07 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:23:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon keynote up on Google Video
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060310110229.00be4400@localhost>
References: <ca471dc20603092013v11bf25ccp7b39af0a01af44bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20603092013v11bf25ccp7b39af0a01af44bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060310110229.00be4400@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0603101220100.567@S.culver.net>

Gee, I had no trouble at all.

You simply bring up two copies of the presentation, and pause the video on one of them when the appropriate slide comes up.

Looks fine on my monitors here.

-Mike



On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:

> At 10:33 AM 3/10/2006, Donovan Preston wrote:
>>> Someone put my PyCon keynote up on Google Video. I don't remember
>>> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=60331183357868340
>>
>> The correct url is http://www.python.org/doc/essays/ppt/

> are along the lines that you can read what it says and he will not
> repeat.  Sigh.


> This video would be much improved by having the slides available separately
> to compensate for the lack of content focus in the camera work.  Further,
> the video is low enough resolution to make some text difficult to read.
>
> Dennis

From hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 11 18:57:06 2006
From: hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net (Laurence Clark)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 09:57:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Qt with Python-based API strategy?
In-Reply-To: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>
References: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>

I am really impressed with PyQt.  I'd really like to hear if there are 
problems with it before I sink a lot more effort into my PyQt coding.  
The drawbacks may or may not apply to me as I am mostly interested in 
doing rapid prototypes.  If I come up with a really compelling app, I 
can always port it back to C++ as needed.

Mostly I am impressed with QT.  I don't believe in hand-coding GUIs and 
the QT Designer works great without locking me into a huge IDE like MS 
Visual Studio or even Eclipse.  I tried Boa Constructor but it seemed 
very rough compared to the QT Designer.

I hope to become more active with Python and BayPiggies starting this 
summer -- currently finishing up some College classes and working full 
time. Maybe we could start a little PyQT sub-group.  I found setting up 
for PyQt development with all the prerequisites was a bit tricky - 
particularly on my old Redhat-9 system. Maybe a Virtual (or real) PyQt 
install-fest would be in order this summer.

PS
Has anyone had problems installing new versions of Python on Redhat 
systems?  Touching the Python setup is scary for me as a beginner since 
many of the Redhat system configuration utilities depend on Python.


craig harris wrote:

> I have also heard about PyQt, and some recommend against this.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>Baypiggies at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>  
>
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From paul at picomobilenet.com  Sat Mar 11 23:02:28 2006
From: paul at picomobilenet.com (Paul A. Lambert)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 14:02:28 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Qt with Python-based API strategy?
In-Reply-To: <44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>
References: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <302C0736-AB20-4F8C-A4AF-40B30EF5B635@picomobilenet.com>


>
> PS
> Has anyone had problems installing new versions of Python on Redhat  
> systems?  Touching the Python setup is scary for me as a beginner  
> since many of the Redhat system configuration utilities depend on  
> Python.


Should be no problem as long as you do not delete the initial Redhat  
installation and libraries.    I have messed up a Redhat system once  
by attempting to clean-up my system and have only the new installation.

Paul


>
>
> craig harris wrote:
>> I have also heard about PyQt, and some recommend against this.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

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From davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com  Sat Mar 11 22:18:49 2006
From: davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com (Monte Davidoff)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 13:18:49 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Qt with Python-based API strategy?
In-Reply-To: <44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>
References: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <44133EB9.2000409@alluvialsw.com>

Laurence Clark wrote:
> 
> Has anyone had problems installing new versions of Python on Redhat [9]
> systems?  Touching the Python setup is scary for me as a beginner since 
> many of the Redhat system configuration utilities depend on Python.

I am successfully using Python 2.4.* on Red Hat Linux 9.  The trick is 
to rebuild the new Python from scratch and install it into /usr/local -- 
don't touch the Red Hat Linux 9 installation of Python 2.2.2 in /usr/bin.

Monte

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sun Mar 12 03:23:05 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 18:23:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Qt with Python-based API strategy?
In-Reply-To: <44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>
References: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603111823gd638befl2e9852f4f435b76@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/11/06, Laurence Clark <hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>  I am really impressed with PyQt.  I'd really like to hear if there are
> problems with it before I sink a lot more effort into my PyQt coding.  The
> drawbacks may or may not apply to me as I am mostly interested in doing
> rapid prototypes.  If I come up with a really compelling app, I can always
> port it back to C++ as needed.
>
>  Mostly I am impressed with QT.  I don't believe in hand-coding GUIs and the
> QT Designer works great without locking me into a huge IDE like MS Visual
> Studio or even Eclipse.  I tried Boa Constructor but it seemed very rough
> compared to the QT Designer.
>
>  I hope to become more active with Python and BayPiggies starting this
> summer -- currently finishing up some College classes and working full time.
> Maybe we could start a little PyQT sub-group.  I found setting up for PyQt
> development with all the prerequisites was a bit tricky - particularly on my
> old Redhat-9 system. Maybe a Virtual (or real) PyQt install-fest would be in
> order this summer.
>
>  PS
>  Has anyone had problems installing new versions of Python on Redhat
> systems?  Touching the Python setup is scary for me as a beginner since many
> of the Redhat system configuration utilities depend on Python.

Perhaps you'd like to do a talk on it.  I did a talk on PyGTK in
December.  A talk on PythonCard / wxPython would also be nice.

By the way, why are you still using RedHat 9?  It's ancient!  I
thought everyone using RedHat had switched to Fedora by now :-/

Best Regards,
-jj

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 12 03:56:02 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 18:56:02 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] How to invite and attract speakers?
Message-ID: <BAY103-F13142B4BEC0011E8A401ECA0E30@phx.gbl>

Hi all,

Seems like now is a good time to make a call for speakers for Baypiggies:
graduating PhD candidates, people in Pythonic startups, government
researchers (e.g. NOAA), recruiters, consultants, shareware authors...
I have my eye on several interesting companies that I've noticed.

So my question is: how do we invite and attract people?
We don't do travel costs, honoraria and membership fees, so that limits us
to people who really want to spread the word.
Also, would need to schedule many months in advance to coincide with their 
travel schedules.
(Aahz - can we list the location, date and time of future scheduled meetings 
on the webpage?)

Anyway I will personally send some invitations to people I know to get the 
ball rolling.
Based on talking to Wes it would be great if several of us did this and see 
who we can turn up.

Regards,
Stephen



From allison at shasta.stanford.edu  Sun Mar 12 04:08:17 2006
From: allison at shasta.stanford.edu (Dennis Allison)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:08:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] How to invite and attract speakers?
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F13142B4BEC0011E8A401ECA0E30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603111858380.5436-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>


I have organized the EE380 Computer Systems Colloquium at Stanford for
years.  I have always found that the best approach is to identify people
who you think will have something interesting to say and invite them
directly.  Because there is no honorarium and no travel support, out of
town speakers need to be scheduled when they are in the Bay Area for other
reasons--and that means contacting them from time to time.  Local speakers
are easier but only because the logistical factors are simpler.



On Sat, 11 Mar 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Seems like now is a good time to make a call for speakers for Baypiggies:
> graduating PhD candidates, people in Pythonic startups, government
> researchers (e.g. NOAA), recruiters, consultants, shareware authors...
> I have my eye on several interesting companies that I've noticed.
> 
> So my question is: how do we invite and attract people?
> We don't do travel costs, honoraria and membership fees, so that limits us
> to people who really want to spread the word.
> Also, would need to schedule many months in advance to coincide with their 
> travel schedules.
> (Aahz - can we list the location, date and time of future scheduled meetings 
> on the webpage?)
> 
> Anyway I will personally send some invitations to people I know to get the 
> ball rolling.
> Based on talking to Wes it would be great if several of us did this and see 
> who we can turn up.
> 
> Regards,
> Stephen
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 12 05:46:58 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:46:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] How to invite and attract speakers?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603111858380.5436-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F18DEB206D8B5005AA90316A0E30@phx.gbl>

Dennis,

That's fine and I agree, that's the basis I am working on.

Just pointing out we are unlikely to get people from, say,
Japan or WETA New Zealand - but maybe someday, who knows.

(WETA use Python for their crowd AI and rendering, among other things:
http://blenderwars.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=27519&sid=defc3e942a4e1809950b2639b7542d29
Fire rendering: http://ninjadodo.zeepost.nl/tutorials/firetut.html)

Anyway, no need to reply on this subject.

Best,
Stephen



From hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 12 07:29:42 2006
From: hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net (Laurence Clark)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:29:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Qt with Python-based API strategy?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90603111823gd638befl2e9852f4f435b76@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>	
	<44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>
	<c41f67b90603111823gd638befl2e9852f4f435b76@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4413BFD6.7090701@sbcglobal.net>


>Perhaps you'd like to do a talk on it.  I did a talk on PyGTK in
>December.  A talk on PythonCard / wxPython would also be nice.
>  
>
As I said, I expect to be a lot more active with Python and other new
software this summer.  Maybe I'll feel competent enough to prepare a
talk on something then. I collected a lot of great advice from an earlier
posting asking about Python ORM solutions. This could be the basis for a 
nice
little Python vs. Java technology talk since I actually get to do some 
Hibernate
programming at my day job.

>By the way, why are you still using RedHat 9?  It's ancient!  I
>thought everyone using RedHat had switched to Fedora by now :-/
>
>  
>
Thats just at home.  It gets worse.  At work we have dozens of servers 
running RHEL3 -- basically Redhat 9 at $1000 dollars per license. 
Seriously, some of us are not rock stars (or CTOs) and these are the 
realities we live with. The best advice for the legacy systems seems to 
be -- build and install Python from source code.  Thanks to Monte 
Davidoff for the earlier email on this. From my own experience, using 
RPMs from Redhat does not work for Python upgrades.


"you say your desktop is older than a week
throw the thing away man its an antique
I know Bill Gates, Call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and make im do ma tech support"

Weird Al Yankovitch From "Its all about the Pentiums"



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Mar 12 15:46:09 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 06:46:09 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Qt with Python-based API strategy?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90603111823gd638befl2e9852f4f435b76@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>
	<c41f67b90603111823gd638befl2e9852f4f435b76@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060312144609.GA3383@panix.com>

On Sat, Mar 11, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> By the way, why are you still using RedHat 9?  It's ancient!  I
> thought everyone using RedHat had switched to Fedora by now :-/

My company has a "central" server that we can't afford the time (both our
time and downtime) to upgrade -- we plan to get a whole new machine in
that we can switch to, but that's a time/money problem.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 13 02:44:40 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 17:44:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Audience survey
Message-ID: <BAY108-F3427F7E573366B55AFC0C08FE00@phx.gbl>

I attended Baypiggies meetings for about 6 months but never got a sense of 
the audience's interests and experience. There were the obvious, Very 
Important People but then there was also the "silent majority". There was 
talk of a survey. Attached is a survey of the questions that I would have 
asked.

Since I have a new job and my Python interests are focused on twisted/nevow, 
my plate is full and won't be attending Baypiggies in the future.

This is not a real survey - just a parting giveaway.

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From walterv at gbbservices.com  Mon Mar 13 06:19:27 2006
From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 21:19:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU info
Message-ID: <441500DF.7070202@gbbservices.com>

As requested at Thursday's meeting, I'm posting information
about the upcoming ACCU meetings. It can also be found at
<http://www.accu-usa.org/Future-Meetings.html>.

March 15, 2006 - Kevlin Henney - A Critical View of C++ Practices
April, 2006 - Guido van Rossum - Python
May 10, 2006 - Scott Atwood - A Gentle Introduction to Unicode
June 14, 2006 - Greg Stein - Python at Google

Guido will probably be talking on April 5, but we haven't
confirmed that we have the room yet. The website will be
updated once it's settled.

Finally, here's the information for this month's talk
(also available at <http://www.accu-usa.org/>) for those
who might be interested

When:      Wednesday, March 15, 2006
Topic:     A Critical View of C++ Practices
Speaker:   Kevlin Henney
Time:      7:00pm
Where:     eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay)
              2161 North First St
              San Jose, CA 95131
Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/cdg5u/>
Cost:      Free
More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>

There are some C++ practices that are often recommended but
often deserve a more critical eye. Sometimes the apparent
need for a practice actually arises from a deeper cause,
and it is this cause that needs to be addressed rather than
the practice employed. In other cases the practice introduces
unnecessary complexity into a design, and may unnecessarily
restrict design options or cause problems itself.

This talk takes a look at a number of these practices and
examines what their issues are and what solutions and
practices C++ programmers should be considering as their
first port of call. The practices explored range from
Singleton to NVI (Non-Virtual Interface), from the default
assumption of virtual destructors in a base class to the
default use of reference-counted smart pointers, from
defensive programming to assertion abuse, from jumpy control
flow to exception abstinence, and from template
metaprogramming to overriding already implemented virtual
functions.

Kevlin is an independent consultant and trainer based in
the UK. He has developed and delivered training courses,
consultancy and software across a number of domains ever
since getting involved in professional software development
in the late 1980s. Kevlin is a regular speaker at conferences,
a contributor to the Boost libraries, and a past and present
columnist for various treeware and online magazines, including
C++ Report, CUJ and Reg Developer. Kevlin is also coauthoring,
with Frank Buschmann and Doug Schmidt, further volumes in
Wiley's Pattern-Oriented Software Architecture series.

Kevlin's consulting company is Curbralan Limited, which he
founded in 2000. Its url is <http://www.curbralan.com/>

The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers please
email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com

Walter Vannini
President, Silicon Valley ACCU
<http://www.accu-usa.org/>
<http://www.gbbservices.com/>



From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 13 14:04:00 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 05:04:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Audience survey 2006?
Message-ID: <BAY103-F34982F893B47BAAD5C9D47A0E00@phx.gbl>

John, and everyone,

Firstly there was a member interest survey in March 2003, I'm the guy who 
compiled it:
If you googled you would find the results at:
http://deirdre.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2003-March/000080.html
and the survey was at: 
http://deirdre.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2003-March/000067.html

Your proposal was fine but we had already planned to reask those questions 
anyway + more.
(geographical location, experience level, amount of Python in job function, 
primary programming language, OS, preferred IDE, preferred GUI, are you 
willing to speak? if so on what topics? etc.)
Wes suggested surveymonkey.com which allows asking up to 20 questions.
Please suggest anything else that you think would be useful to ask.

You can find plenty of historical discussion from mid-2003 about interests 
and what sort of talks:
  http://deirdre.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2003-March
  http://deirdre.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2003-April
  ...
  http://deirdre.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2003-August

Also Chad Netzer's many good suggestions and talks he presented:
http://deirdre.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2003-July/000144.html
You can see from the archives that Chad, Drew, Wes, Aahz, Danny, Jimmy and 
others have made many suggestions.

You are correct that the range of topics presented has been getting more 
narrow;
and in my opinion neglecting some more generic topics. (A few thoughts of 
mine: * databases * scientific computing and visualization * how to make a 
career out of Python (in areas outside web development and testing) * 
recruiter evening * IDE demonstrations * how to author and sell Pythonic 
shareware * other languages and paradigms (Ruby, Cocoa, Eiffel, Haskell) * 
Zope + Plone overview * Pythonic startups )
What has been presented is mainly a function of who is willing to speak.
Everyone is free to speak, or invite, or suggest a speaker. Feel free to get 
involved.

One positive way to interpret the recent narrowing of focus is as a 
side-effect of the fact that so many people who used to do Python mainly as 
a garage hobby now do it as a day-job, so their interests are now dictated 
by their bosses :)

Regards,
Stephen



From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 13 14:14:21 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 05:14:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Audience survey 2006? / topics
Message-ID: <BAY103-F101B70D214805D2102FA80A0E00@phx.gbl>

Addendum - I forgot to reiterate these two suggestions John made:

1) Newbie nights
I had already suggested to Wes we should clearly label a meeting in advance 
as 'Beginner','Intermediate' or 'Expert'. And we should try to make sure 
there are beginner meetings regularly. Which requires volunteers. And 
suggested topics to cover (what's new in 2.4? snippets? design patterns?).

2) Survey of how Python projects make money (Zope, Plone, consultants, etc.)
Yes this would be a great topic. The discussion about how to monetize Python 
is pretty open.
To my mind there have been as many failures as successes.

Over to everyone else now...
Stephen



From Chris.Clark at ingres.com  Mon Mar 13 23:07:51 2006
From: Chris.Clark at ingres.com (Chris Clark)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:07:51 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Qt with Python-based API strategy?
In-Reply-To: <44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>
References: <20060310004042.E48EE1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<44130F72.7050609@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <4415ED37.9010606@ingres.com>

Laurence Clark wrote:
> I am really impressed with PyQt.  I'd really like to hear if there are 
> problems with it before I sink a lot more effort into my PyQt coding.  
> The drawbacks may or may not apply to me as I am mostly interested in 
> doing rapid prototypes.
I have to confess in my brief fling with QT I liked it, but the 
licensing worried me slightly for Windows (a few years ago you couldn't 
use the QT designer under Windows under GPL, it was commercial or 
education only - I ended up using qtdesigner under Linux). Also QT 
portability was an issue for me so I ended up switching to wx a while back.

IMHO the gui designers for wx are not as polished as QT (spacers 
[/sizers] are not available in Boa, XRCed does have them but the 
properties for them are non-obvious, the last time I checked wxGlade 
didn't support them, even if I imported an xrc file from XRCed). I 
almost always use XRCed these days.

It sounds like my concerns for QT aren't yours (and you are already a QT 
user so I'd say stick with it), the big one will be getting pre-built 
bindings - you will probably end up building your own from src with 
older RedHat installations, as JJ mentioned FC should address that if 
you don't mind moving (Ubuntu, which is a debian derivative has 
up-to-date pre-built deb's available too).

Chris


From wescpy at gmail.com  Tue Mar 14 08:57:22 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 23:57:22 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon follow-up
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603132357l59392bdbweb2114239390b3bb@mail.gmail.com>

thanks to everyone for "making the talk happen" last thursday... i was
afraid that we weren't gonna be able to pull it off, but once we you
all going, then i think we'll always be ok.

i briefly mentioned that there were about 10-12 tutorial compendia
remaining from PyCon.  3 of you have expressed interest in purchasing
them for the original cost of $25.  if anyone else is interested, let
me know, as we can pull them out of storage in dallas.  if you want to
know what the tutorials were at this year's PyCon:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2006/Tutorials

every tutorial has a separate description page, and i was able to get
slides or notes from all of the presenters for the compendia... 250
pages total.

also, the feedback/evaluation forms from PyCon have been tabulated,
and the results are here:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2006/Feedback

notice the geographic locations of where people want future PyCon
events held... the Bay Area ranks at the top (if you add all the Bay
Area cities [SF, SJ, "Bay Area"] together). tony might just get his
wish yet.  :-)

cheers,
-wesley

From guido at python.org  Tue Mar 14 16:43:25 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 07:43:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon follow-up
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580603132357l59392bdbweb2114239390b3bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78b3a9580603132357l59392bdbweb2114239390b3bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20603140743p359ee83jb3d215e0b51e99e7@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/13/06, w chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> notice the geographic locations of where people want future PyCon
> events held... the Bay Area ranks at the top (if you add all the Bay
> Area cities [SF, SJ, "Bay Area"] together). tony might just get his
> wish yet.  :-)

The only way this is going to happen is if the bay area Python users,
in "get the Olympics to our city" style (but without the corruption
:-), put together a realistic proposal to host it. The PSF doesn't
have the resources to review many different location options; a strong
proposal has a great likelihood to "win". That's how Dallas got the
conference in 2006 and 2007 -- there were only three proposals to
begin with and two of those evaporated before being fully worked out.
There's time -- the PSF has a two-year contract with the Dallas hotel
so the first time that's open is 2008. If people are interested I'd be
happy to provide more input on what makes a good proposal (IMO).

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From rdm at cfcl.com  Sat Mar 18 19:58:43 2006
From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 10:58:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] BASS reminder
Message-ID: <p0623091cc04208d0287c@[192.168.254.205]>

The Beer & Scripting SIG (http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass)
will convene on Wed., 3/22.  Be there or be elsewhere!

-r

P.S.  I maintain a list of scripting-related groups:

        SF Bay Area Scripting Groups
        http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass/groups.php

      Pointers to any missing groups would be welcomed!
-- 
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

From beau at open-source-staffing.com  Tue Mar 21 22:18:04 2006
From: beau at open-source-staffing.com (Beau Gould)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:18:04 -0500
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
	CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
Message-ID: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>

Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich, CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK

Client will pay full relocation expenses. 

My Greenwich, CT client is looking for programmers fluent in Python and C++ to build and improve systems in a variety of areas, including mathematical programming, parallel computing, network servers, and user interfaces. They are a relatively small, but rapidly growing company offering opportunity for growth and creativity in a resource-rich environment.

Requirements:
* Strong experience in Python and C++
* Financial programming experience a plus

All candidates will be considered (H1, H1B, Canadian, etc) but you must currently be residing in the USA or Canada.  No oversea relocations. 

If you are interested in this position and are 100% ready to move to Greenwich, CT, please submit your resume, a paragraph or cover letter highlighting your C++ and Python experience and your salary requirements to beau at open-source-staffing.com


Thank you,
Beau J. Gould

Open Source Staffing
beau at open-source-staffing.com
www.open-source-staffing.com


Other Python and/or Zope positions posted here: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pythonzopejobs 

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.6/286 - Release Date: 3/20/2006
 


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Mar 21 22:55:01 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:55:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
	CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
Message-ID: <20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006, Beau Gould wrote:
>
> Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich, CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK

Jobs posted to BayPIGgies must be located in the Greater SF Bay Area.
Please follow the directions on
http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From Landrum at RationalDiscovery.com  Tue Mar 21 23:06:53 2006
From: Landrum at RationalDiscovery.com (Greg Landrum)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:06:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
 CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
Message-ID: <442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>

Aahz wrote:
> 
> Jobs posted to BayPIGgies must be located in the Greater SF Bay Area.
> Please follow the directions on
> http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html

What's the reason for this policy? The company clearly states that 
they'll pay for relocation, so this announcement is certainly applicable 
to bay area python programmers.

-greg

From deirdre at deirdre.net  Tue Mar 21 23:16:41 2006
From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:16:41 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
	CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
Message-ID: <D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>


On Mar 21, 2006, at 2:06 PM, Greg Landrum wrote:

> Aahz wrote:
>>
>> Jobs posted to BayPIGgies must be located in the Greater SF Bay Area.
>> Please follow the directions on
>> http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html
>
> What's the reason for this policy? The company clearly states that
> they'll pay for relocation, so this announcement is certainly  
> applicable
> to bay area python programmers.

Any place where jobs get posted tends to become a cesspool of off- 
topic job posts unless there's a strong focus -- while I don't set  
the policy on this list any more, the original intent was to keep it  
focused to Python programmers looking for jobs WITHIN the bay area  
(or people looking to relocate TO the bay area).

I suggest that any Python programmers in the bay area looking to  
relocate find other appropriate avenues for same.

-- 
_Deirdre                                             http://deirdre.net



From mac at Wireless.Com  Tue Mar 21 23:39:37 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:39:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
 CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>

I think Deirdre is wrong.

If an offer is for out-of-bay w/relo and is for Python developer, then it should be OK to post here.

-Mike


On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote:

> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:16:41 -0800
> From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen <deirdre at deirdre.net>
> To: Greg Landrum <Landrum at RationalDiscovery.com>
> Cc: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
>     CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
> 
>
> On Mar 21, 2006, at 2:06 PM, Greg Landrum wrote:
>
>> Aahz wrote:
>>>
>>> Jobs posted to BayPIGgies must be located in the Greater SF Bay Area.
>>> Please follow the directions on
>>> http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html
>>
>> What's the reason for this policy? The company clearly states that
>> they'll pay for relocation, so this announcement is certainly
>> applicable
>> to bay area python programmers.
>
> Any place where jobs get posted tends to become a cesspool of off-
> topic job posts unless there's a strong focus -- while I don't set
> the policy on this list any more, the original intent was to keep it
> focused to Python programmers looking for jobs WITHIN the bay area
> (or people looking to relocate TO the bay area).
>
> I suggest that any Python programmers in the bay area looking to
> relocate find other appropriate avenues for same.
>
> -- 
> _Deirdre                                             http://deirdre.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 21 23:43:35 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:43:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] FWD:(Job) Compiler Engineer - Berkeley,
	N. CA - 6 Months Contract (some python/pyrex experience preferred)
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0603211443i7bd48710re8e0cc18316d3fb@mail.gmail.com>

Message: 15
  Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:41:08 -0800
  From: Naren <naren at cgt-consult.com>
Subject: (Job) Compiler Engineer - Berkeley, N. CA - 6 Months Contract

This is my direct client opening - Compiler Engineer - Berkeley, N. CA -
6 Months Contract

My client is looking for a Compiler Engineer as follows:
- IR and backend optimizations, VLIW/DSP/loop optimizations, integrated
scheduling and register allocation for clustered register file
architectures, power optimization, Unix/C++/Python Siemens.  Our client
seeks an experienced Compiler Engineer to develop a GCC/LLVM based
backend for an advanced embedded VLIW processor.
- This is a challenging position in a startup environment where the
successful candidate will lay down the foundations for the compiler
infrastructure that will form a critical part of a new product. Success
in this crucial task will lead to the candidate becoming the de-facto
lead of software for a start-up company and therefore requires
substantial effort and dedication upfront.
- Main responsibilities will be to rapidly produce a VLIW backend as
well as assist with complex systems programming tasks. For this
position, C++/assembly language wizardry will be taken for granted,
experience with simulators is required, and familiarity with EDA design
flows is a plus.
- What will set the successful candidate apart from the crowd will be
breadth of knowledge, familiarity with Python, Pyrex and Swig bindings
and the ability to solve challenging problems independently.
- MS/PhD or 5+ years of relevant experience required.

This position is for a Compiler Engineer with our client in Berkeley,
Northern California.  The duration of this project is for 6 months and
the rate is D.O.E.

Please complete and copy/paste this completed skills-matrix to me with
your response:
Full name:
Degree major:
Total IT exp:
Total IR exp:
Total Backend Optimizations exp:
Total VLIW exp:
Total DSP exp:
Total Loop Optimizations exp:
Total Power Optimization exp:
Total Integrated Scheduling exp:
Total Register Allocation exp:
Total Clustered Register File Architectures exp:
Total Unix exp:
Total C++ exp:
Total Python exp:
Total Siemens exp:
Total GCC/LLVM Based Backend exp:
Total Embedded VLIW Processor exp:
Total Simulators exp:
Total EDA Design Flows exp:
Total Swig Bindings exp:
Total Pyrex exp:
Your work status - Are you a US Citizen/H1/GC holder/Other?:
Specify:
Hourly rate:
Is this in W2 or Corp rate?
Day Tel#:
Eve Tel#:
Cell number:
Availability:
Your current City / State:
If you qualify for this position, are available immediately and are
interested, please send your resume, rate and contact information to
mailto:resume at cgt-consulting.com?subject=Compiler-Eng-N-CA Please ensure
you complete and copy/paste the above completed matrix with your
response.
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From Landrum at RationalDiscovery.com  Tue Mar 21 23:50:24 2006
From: Landrum at RationalDiscovery.com (Greg Landrum)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:50:24 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
 CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
Message-ID: <44208330.6030600@RationalDiscovery.com>

Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote:
> 
> Any place where jobs get posted tends to become a cesspool of off- 
> topic job posts unless there's a strong focus -- while I don't set  
> the policy on this list any more, the original intent was to keep it  
> focused to Python programmers looking for jobs WITHIN the bay area  
> (or people looking to relocate TO the bay area).
> 
> I suggest that any Python programmers in the bay area looking to  
> relocate find other appropriate avenues for same.

Clearly those who run the list get to make the rules, but I do not agree 
with this policy.

-greg




From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Mar 21 23:53:49 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:53:49 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: Re:  Job posting policy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <20060321225349.GB3976@panix.com>

<admin hat on>

Just making it rilly rilly clear that I'm speaking in my list admin role
here:

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote:
>> On Mar 21, 2006, at 2:06 PM, Greg Landrum wrote:
>>> Aahz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jobs posted to BayPIGgies must be located in the Greater SF Bay Area.
>>>> Please follow the directions on
>>>> http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html
>>>
>>> What's the reason for this policy? The company clearly states that
>>> they'll pay for relocation, so this announcement is certainly
>>> applicable to bay area python programmers.
>>
>> Any place where jobs get posted tends to become a cesspool of off-
>> topic job posts unless there's a strong focus -- while I don't set
>> the policy on this list any more, the original intent was to keep it
>> focused to Python programmers looking for jobs WITHIN the bay area
>> (or people looking to relocate TO the bay area).
>>
>> I suggest that any Python programmers in the bay area looking to
>> relocate find other appropriate avenues for same.
>
> I think Deirdre is wrong.
>
> If an offer is for out-of-bay w/relo and is for Python developer, then
> it should be OK to post here.

Sorry, more than a decade of experience with Usenet and mailing lists
says that Deirdre is precisely correct.  This is primarily a discussion
and announcement list; we permit job ads as a courtesy to list
subscribers.  The rules that we have are designed to ensure that we get
a minimum of job ads that are maximally applicable to the list.  There
are plenty of other places to look for jobs if that is your focus; please
use them.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Tue Mar 21 23:56:04 2006
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:56:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
 CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603211447090.7066-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>


> If an offer is for out-of-bay w/relo and is for Python developer, then
> it should be OK to post here.

Hi Mike,

I know this is going to sound obvious and silly, but: the idea behind
BayPIGgies is that it's the Bay Area Python Interest Group.  If people are
posting messages about jobs outside of the Bay Area, even though
relocation is an option, then it really makes more sense to do it on a
more general board like the Python Job Board:

    http://www.python.org/community/jobs/

as well as the user group that's geographically closest to the job in
question.


Let's play with a thought experiment: the alternative to this is for an
employer to hit every Python-related community message board in the world
with the same job posting.  By the reasoning in the previous messages,
this boorish behavior should be acceptable because the job offers to pay
for the relocation fees.

I think you know which way I'm swinging on this.  *grin*


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Mar 22 00:01:16 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:01:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
	CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <44208330.6030600@RationalDiscovery.com>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
	<44208330.6030600@RationalDiscovery.com>
Message-ID: <20060321230116.GC3976@panix.com>

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006, Greg Landrum wrote:
> Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote:
>> 
>> Any place where jobs get posted tends to become a cesspool of off- 
>> topic job posts unless there's a strong focus -- while I don't set  
>> the policy on this list any more, the original intent was to keep it  
>> focused to Python programmers looking for jobs WITHIN the bay area  
>> (or people looking to relocate TO the bay area).
>> 
>> I suggest that any Python programmers in the bay area looking to  
>> relocate find other appropriate avenues for same.
> 
> Clearly those who run the list get to make the rules, but I do not agree 
> with this policy.

Without checking with the other admins, I think I can comfortably declare
that our goal is to serve the community.  However, it can be difficult to
determine the will of the community, and in the absence of a clear
consensus to the contrary, we have to use our best judgment based on
experience.  If it becomes the case that more people object to the
policy (and nobody objected to the policy when we created about a year
ago), we will likely run a straw poll to find out the will of the group.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Mar 22 00:05:01 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:05:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
	CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603211447090.7066-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0603211447090.7066-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603211505k15c6fe0g99a48193ac03bbd9@mail.gmail.com>

I second Danny's sentiment.  Use python.org.  Good luck finding a candidate!

Best Regards,
-jj

On 3/21/06, Danny Yoo <dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> > If an offer is for out-of-bay w/relo and is for Python developer, then
> > it should be OK to post here.
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I know this is going to sound obvious and silly, but: the idea behind
> BayPIGgies is that it's the Bay Area Python Interest Group.  If people are
> posting messages about jobs outside of the Bay Area, even though
> relocation is an option, then it really makes more sense to do it on a
> more general board like the Python Job Board:
>
>     http://www.python.org/community/jobs/
>
> as well as the user group that's geographically closest to the job in
> question.
>
>
> Let's play with a thought experiment: the alternative to this is for an
> employer to hit every Python-related community message board in the world
> with the same job posting.  By the reasoning in the previous messages,
> this boorish behavior should be acceptable because the job offers to pay
> for the relocation fees.
>
> I think you know which way I'm swinging on this.  *grin*
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From DennisR at dair.com  Wed Mar 22 00:06:24 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:06:24 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: Re:  Job posting policy
In-Reply-To: <20060321225349.GB3976@panix.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>
	<007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060321145909.00bf2040@localhost>

At 02:53 PM 3/21/2006, Aahz wrote:
>we permit job ads as a courtesy to list
>subscribers.  The rules that we have are designed to ensure that we get
>a minimum of job ads that are maximally applicable to the list.

While we are maximizing here, maybe we can control these announcements in 
the meetings themselves.

In the last meeting, I think there were 4-some job announcements taking 
about 15 minutes at the start.  ... hard to say how much time exactly 
because job announcements were mixed with about 30 minutes of announcements 
to get started.

There were about 50 people in the meeting.  When I noted who was talking to 
people making job announcements after the meeting, there seemed to be 1-2, 
a poor use for 15 minutes of everyone's time.

Dennis

----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From seanl at chaosring.org  Wed Mar 22 00:08:28 2006
From: seanl at chaosring.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:08:28 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
 CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <20060321230116.GC3976@panix.com>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>	<44208330.6030600@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<20060321230116.GC3976@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4420876C.1030100@chaosring.org>

Aahz wrote:
> Without checking with the other admins, I think I can comfortably declare
> that our goal is to serve the community.  However, it can be difficult to
> determine the will of the community, and in the absence of a clear
> consensus to the contrary, we have to use our best judgment based on
> experience.  If it becomes the case that more people object to the
> policy (and nobody objected to the policy when we created about a year
> ago), we will likely run a straw poll to find out the will of the group.
>   

As someone who is not currently looking for a job, who knows how to look
for a job (i.e. I don't subscribe to Python SIGs to get job postings),
and who has unsubscribed from many a mailing list because it became
nothing more than a job posting list for jobs all over the country
because of all the greedy/lazy headhunters out there, allow me to cast
my vote for "no job postings at all." I will accept the compromise that
only local Python job postings are allowed, but people should be aware
that this policy is already a compromise and doesn't represent the
opposite extreme from "any jobs that are willing to pay for relocation."

That said, you couldn't pay me enough to live in Connecticut, and anyone
desperate enough to relocate there from the Bay Area is already looking
at many, many job boards.


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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Mar 22 01:45:33 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:45:33 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting job policy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060321145909.00bf2040@localhost>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>
	<007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060321145909.00bf2040@localhost>
Message-ID: <20060322004533.GA14238@panix.com>

[taking off ADMIN tag -- there's a relationship between the list and the
meetings, of course, but I feel less appropriate declaring meeting
policy by fiat, especially given that I haven't been to one in months!]

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>
> While we are maximizing here, maybe we can control these announcements in 
> the meetings themselves.

That sounds like a good idea.  Perhaps the simplest approach is to have
job announcements after the meeting, so that anyone who wants to ignore
them can leave?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From wescpy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 22 17:19:47 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:19:47 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
	CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <4420876C.1030100@chaosring.org>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
	<44208330.6030600@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<20060321230116.GC3976@panix.com> <4420876C.1030100@chaosring.org>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603220819t2d02662cmad4e5c7faf72ef7e@mail.gmail.com>

my vote is to do something similar to python.org... have a separate
wiki-ish job posting page for BayPIGgies hung off of baypiggies.net.

if ppl are interested in Python jobs that have some sort of Bay Area
cxn, i.e., the job is here, or its elsewhere but relo is a MUST, then
they should be able to cast there.  the wiki-ish ctrls must have
moderator approval before it's uploaded to the page.

ppl can then click the link if they're interested in jobs, so those
who aren't don't have to see unwanted job announcement traffic.

my $0.02,
-wesley

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Wed Mar 22 18:17:38 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 09:17:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: Re:  Job posting policy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060321145909.00bf2040@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603220914220.1758-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:

> At 02:53 PM 3/21/2006, Aahz wrote:
> >we permit job ads as a courtesy to list
> >subscribers.  The rules that we have are designed to ensure that we get
> >a minimum of job ads that are maximally applicable to the list.
> 
> While we are maximizing here, maybe we can control these announcements in 
> the meetings themselves.
> 
> In the last meeting, I think there were 4-some job announcements taking 
> about 15 minutes at the start.  ... hard to say how much time exactly 
> because job announcements were mixed with about 30 minutes of announcements 
> to get started.
> 
> There were about 50 people in the meeting.  When I noted who was talking to 
> people making job announcements after the meeting, there seemed to be 1-2, 
> a poor use for 15 minutes of everyone's time.

While we are complaining about a poor use of time at the meeting, I
gently suggest that meticulously starting on time would be a polite
and constructive thing.

I went to the meeting, knowing I'd have to leave at 8:30, but it
wasn't really worth it when it started so late.

Thanks for listening.

Marilyn Davis

> 
> Dennis
> 
> ----------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
> | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
> ----------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 22 18:39:42 2006
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 09:39:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting job policy
In-Reply-To: <20060322004533.GA14238@panix.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>
	<007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060321145909.00bf2040@localhost>
	<20060322004533.GA14238@panix.com>
Message-ID: <op.s6tsogl6oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

I won't recommend we being too strict to ban pre-meeting announcement.  
After meeting is not the time to get people's attention. Maybe a founder  
have something cool to say. Maybe someone want to recruit volunteers for  
some OSS projects or some functions. We don't want to miss out entirely.

I suggest the host should have discretion for some 5 minutes of  
pre-meeting announcements. If there are 5 recruiters in line give them 1  
minute each (or maybe just 45 seconds each). This is actually a good thing  
because it will force them to cut the crap and give the best line if it  
worths our attention.

Wai Yip


> [taking off ADMIN tag -- there's a relationship between the list and the
> meetings, of course, but I feel less appropriate declaring meeting
> policy by fiat, especially given that I haven't been to one in months!]
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>>
>> While we are maximizing here, maybe we can control these announcements  
>> in
>> the meetings themselves.
>
> That sounds like a good idea.  Perhaps the simplest approach is to have
> job announcements after the meeting, so that anyone who wants to ignore
> them can leave?



From harrington_chad at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 22 20:13:05 2006
From: harrington_chad at hotmail.com (Chad Harrington)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:13:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Separate Job List?
In-Reply-To: <op.s6tsogl6oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F37FAF791FB98C15699D5FF82D90@phx.gbl>

Given that the list traffic about the job posting policy has become almost 
more than the actual job posting traffic, I propose the following:

Let's create a separate list - baypiggiesjobs at python.org and let all job 
postings be sent there.  Interested parties can subscribe and the 
non-interested majority can be saved from the traffic.  The posting policy 
could be more liberal than the policies being proposed for the core 
baypiggies list, suiting all interested parties.

Thoughts?

Chad Harrington
harrington_chad at hotmail.com



From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Mar 22 22:58:08 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 13:58:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
	CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580603220819t2d02662cmad4e5c7faf72ef7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
	<44208330.6030600@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<20060321230116.GC3976@panix.com> <4420876C.1030100@chaosring.org>
	<78b3a9580603220819t2d02662cmad4e5c7faf72ef7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603221358w3aa1386bo95c86120a4e19315@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, we are so lucky!  I remember a time when it was *damn hard* to
get a job coding in Python.  Complaints aside, I'm just happy I get to
code in my favorite language instead of having to settle for a Java
job.

-jj

On 3/22/06, w chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> my vote is to do something similar to python.org... have a separate
> wiki-ish job posting page for BayPIGgies hung off of baypiggies.net.
>
> if ppl are interested in Python jobs that have some sort of Bay Area
> cxn, i.e., the job is here, or its elsewhere but relo is a MUST, then
> they should be able to cast there.  the wiki-ish ctrls must have
> moderator approval before it's uploaded to the page.
>
> ppl can then click the link if they're interested in jobs, so those
> who aren't don't have to see unwanted job announcement traffic.
>
> my $0.02,
> -wesley
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From pahowe at gmail.com  Thu Mar 23 07:31:26 2006
From: pahowe at gmail.com (Paul Howe)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 22:31:26 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python/C++ Developer, Greenwich,
	CT | 80-160k | Relo/H1B OK
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90603221358w3aa1386bo95c86120a4e19315@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>
	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>
	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>
	<44208330.6030600@RationalDiscovery.com>
	<20060321230116.GC3976@panix.com> <4420876C.1030100@chaosring.org>
	<78b3a9580603220819t2d02662cmad4e5c7faf72ef7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90603221358w3aa1386bo95c86120a4e19315@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CF34175D-A5D3-41FD-9EB7-3174C3267C98@gmail.com>

Im kind of a lurker on this list, but just to add another data point,  
I've just started a job in which one of my primary functions will be  
to output python.  I feel like Im living in the future.  Getting paid  
to write code in the same language I'd write my own applications.  
Life is good.

PH

On Mar 22, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Wow, we are so lucky!  I remember a time when it was *damn hard* to
> get a job coding in Python.  Complaints aside, I'm just happy I get to
> code in my favorite language instead of having to settle for a Java
> job.
>
> -jj
>
> On 3/22/06, w chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> my vote is to do something similar to python.org... have a separate
>> wiki-ish job posting page for BayPIGgies hung off of baypiggies.net.
>>
>> if ppl are interested in Python jobs that have some sort of Bay Area
>> cxn, i.e., the job is here, or its elsewhere but relo is a MUST, then
>> they should be able to cast there.  the wiki-ish ctrls must have
>> moderator approval before it's uploaded to the page.
>>
>> ppl can then click the link if they're interested in jobs, so those
>> who aren't don't have to see unwanted job announcement traffic.
>>
>> my $0.02,
>> -wesley
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From kenichi.ueda at gmail.com  Fri Mar 24 00:37:12 2006
From: kenichi.ueda at gmail.com (Ken-ichi)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:37:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie troubles with dbapi parameter formatting
Message-ID: <44233128.2070605@gmail.com>

Hi all,

I'm new, live up in Berkeley, and am trying to learn Python.  I'm 
currently struggling with database interaction, specifically with 
PostgreSQL and the Psycopg2 module, which implements the Python DB API 
spec.  I'm trying to do something like

cursor.execute('SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)', (a_list,))

where a_list is a list of strings.  I've tried something like this:

cursor.execute('SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)', (', 
'.join(a_list),))

and

cursor.execute('SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)', ("', 
'".join(a_list),))

but they don't single-quote the strings properly (it thinks the comma is 
a separate string, and so encloses it in single-quote again for 
something like ('val1'',''val2'',''val3').

My working solution is to just format the query before feeding it to the 
cursor, but I feel like the execute() method should support arbitrary 
lists of parameters.  I just can't find any docs on it.  Does anyone 
know how to do this?  Am I thinking about this in completely the wrong way?

Thanks.

-Ken-ichi

From jimmy at retzlaff.com  Fri Mar 24 10:26:32 2006
From: jimmy at retzlaff.com (Jimmy Retzlaff)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 01:26:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie troubles with dbapi parameter formatting
Message-ID: <A7B5C22F20EE3C4E95744E2F03F1887F4562B0@MAYOR.retzlaff.com>

Ken-ichi wrote:
> I'm new, live up in Berkeley, and am trying to learn Python.

Welcome!

> I'm currently struggling with database interaction, specifically with
> PostgreSQL and the Psycopg2 module, which implements the Python DB API
> spec.  I'm trying to do something like
> 
> cursor.execute('SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)', (a_list,))
> 
> where a_list is a list of strings.  I've tried something like this:
> 
> cursor.execute('SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)', (',
> '.join(a_list),))
> 
> and
> 
> cursor.execute('SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)', ("',
> '".join(a_list),))
> 
> but they don't single-quote the strings properly (it thinks the comma
is
> a separate string, and so encloses it in single-quote again for
> something like ('val1'',''val2'',''val3').
> 
> My working solution is to just format the query before feeding it to
the
> cursor, but I feel like the execute() method should support arbitrary
> lists of parameters.  I just can't find any docs on it.  Does anyone
> know how to do this?  Am I thinking about this in completely the wrong
> way?

I haven't seen a dbapi module that will help with your particular case
directly. The parameter support in execute looks at the query template
to determine how many SQL values to generate, not the value(s) you
supply. In your case the answer is 1 so it tries to turn whatever you
pass in into 1 SQL value. It works great for things like "SELECT * FROM
table WHERE column IN (%s, %s, %s)" when you supply a tuple of 3
parameters, but not for your case. What I do in this case is generate
the SQL template dynamically:

listTemplate = ','.join(['%s']*len(a_list))
sqlTemplate = 'SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)' % listTemplate
cursor.execute(sqlTemplate, a_list)

Those 3 lines are untested, but hopefully it's close enough to get you
moving forward.

Jimmy

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Mar 24 16:27:58 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:27:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie troubles with dbapi parameter formatting
In-Reply-To: <A7B5C22F20EE3C4E95744E2F03F1887F4562B0@MAYOR.retzlaff.com>
References: <A7B5C22F20EE3C4E95744E2F03F1887F4562B0@MAYOR.retzlaff.com>
Message-ID: <20060324152758.GB425@panix.com>

On Fri, Mar 24, 2006, Jimmy Retzlaff wrote:
>
> I haven't seen a dbapi module that will help with your particular case
> directly. The parameter support in execute looks at the query template
> to determine how many SQL values to generate, not the value(s) you
> supply. In your case the answer is 1 so it tries to turn whatever you
> pass in into 1 SQL value. It works great for things like "SELECT * FROM
> table WHERE column IN (%s, %s, %s)" when you supply a tuple of 3
> parameters, but not for your case. What I do in this case is generate
> the SQL template dynamically:
> 
> listTemplate = ','.join(['%s']*len(a_list))
> sqlTemplate = 'SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)' % listTemplate
> cursor.execute(sqlTemplate, a_list)

My preference is to spell out the list explicitly rather than relying on
execute() to handle the interpolation:

in_clause = ','.join(["'%s'" for x in a_list)
sql = "SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)" % in_clause
cursor.execute(sql)

Note that I'm always careful to surround SQL queries in double-quotes or
triple-quotes in case I add a manual parameter with a string later...
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't
go calling it doubles."  --John Cleese anticipates Usenet

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Mar 24 20:36:42 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:36:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie troubles with dbapi parameter formatting
In-Reply-To: <20060324152758.GB425@panix.com>
References: <A7B5C22F20EE3C4E95744E2F03F1887F4562B0@MAYOR.retzlaff.com>
	<20060324152758.GB425@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603241136h7231662eq8357285c7bf99646@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/24/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 24, 2006, Jimmy Retzlaff wrote:
> >
> > I haven't seen a dbapi module that will help with your particular case
> > directly. The parameter support in execute looks at the query template
> > to determine how many SQL values to generate, not the value(s) you
> > supply. In your case the answer is 1 so it tries to turn whatever you
> > pass in into 1 SQL value. It works great for things like "SELECT * FROM
> > table WHERE column IN (%s, %s, %s)" when you supply a tuple of 3
> > parameters, but not for your case. What I do in this case is generate
> > the SQL template dynamically:
> >
> > listTemplate = ','.join(['%s']*len(a_list))
> > sqlTemplate = 'SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)' % listTemplate
> > cursor.execute(sqlTemplate, a_list)
>
> My preference is to spell out the list explicitly rather than relying on
> execute() to handle the interpolation:
>
> in_clause = ','.join(["'%s'" for x in a_list)
> sql = "SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)" % in_clause
> cursor.execute(sql)
>
> Note that I'm always careful to surround SQL queries in double-quotes or
> triple-quotes in case I add a manual parameter with a string later...

Also be sure to protect yourself against SQL injection attacks using
whatever is appropriate to escape stuff in the a_list.

-jj

From Chris.Clark at ingres.com  Fri Mar 24 21:12:22 2006
From: Chris.Clark at ingres.com (Chris Clark)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:12:22 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie troubles with dbapi parameter formatting
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90603241136h7231662eq8357285c7bf99646@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A7B5C22F20EE3C4E95744E2F03F1887F4562B0@MAYOR.retzlaff.com>	<20060324152758.GB425@panix.com>
	<c41f67b90603241136h7231662eq8357285c7bf99646@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <442452A6.6080208@ingres.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> On 3/24/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>   
>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2006, Jimmy Retzlaff wrote:
>>     
>>> I haven't seen a dbapi module that will help with your particular case
>>> directly. The parameter support in execute looks at the query template
>>> to determine how many SQL values to generate, not the value(s) you
>>> supply.
..snip
>> My preference is to spell out the list explicitly rather than relying on
>> execute() to handle the interpolation:
>>
>> in_clause = ','.join(["'%s'" for x in a_list)
>> sql = "SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)" % in_clause
>> cursor.execute(sql)
>>
>> Note that I'm always careful to surround SQL queries in double-quotes or
>> triple-quotes in case I add a manual parameter with a string later...
>>     
>
> Also be sure to protect yourself against SQL injection attacks using
> whatever is appropriate to escape stuff in the a_list.
>
>   
Excellent advice from jj, I would go with a hybrid approach (note 
untested!) to create a parameter marker list and let the database driver 
deal with escape stuff:

    ...
    a_list=(1,2,3) ##etc.
   
    var_marker = r'%s'
    #var_marker = '?'
    #var_marker = r'%s'
    # etc.based on whatever driver.paramstyle defines
   
    # not very pythonic, hopefully this is easy to read
    # albeit not efficient
    in_clause = var_marker
    for x in a_list[1:]:
        in_clause = in_clause + ',%s'%(var_marker)
  
    sql = "SELECT * FROM table WHERE column IN (%s)" % in_clause
    cursor.execute(sql, a_list)
    ..

Regards,

Chris



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Mar 27 17:21:53 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:21:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
Message-ID: <20060327152153.GA23013@panix.com>

Anyone have a presentation they want to make for April 13?

If nobody does, I have an idea: let's have people bring their laptops for
sprinting.  Does IronPort have enough network connectivity in the room to
support that?  This would be a good way for people who don't have
experience with pair programming to try it out.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't
go calling it doubles."  --John Cleese anticipates Usenet

From epalmore at pixar.com  Tue Mar 28 22:40:07 2006
From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:40:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Software Development Engineer in Test (Perl or Python)
	@ Pixar Animation Studios!
Message-ID: <E9728B9D-0E34-4461-837F-8CBA339B4FC0@pixar.com>

We are seeking an experienced QA Engineer with a passion for quality  
to participate in the software quality assurance efforts for our  
proprietary in house toolset.

This position requires close collaboration with the engineering staff  
to define, develop, execute, and automate API level test plans and  
test cases. Identify and communicate a strategy for API and other  
testing methodologies, review and report on test progress, status,  
and coverage, and meet test completion and delivery milestones that  
you help define. Work closely with development, project management  
and documentation to coordinate testing responsibilities.

Responsibilities:

? Develop and execute an API testing strategy, using API testing  
methodology and programming language knowledge
? Develop and implement API tests
? Contribute to setting and evaluating milestone criteria such that  
product is released on schedule with high quality
? Design and implement quality processes for a small team of senior  
software developers
? Work closely with the core development teams during all phases of  
the product life cycle
? Evaluate completeness and effectiveness of developer's unit tests

Qualifications:

? 5+ years of experience in QA or software development
? Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or equivalent
? 3+ years of experience testing APIs and complex data structures
? Excellent design and coding skills ( C/C++ or  and a scripting  
language such as Python or Perl)
? Knowledge of QA methodology, processes, and tools
? Direct experience testing software under Unix (e.g., Linux or OSX)
? Cross platform development experience is preferred (Macintosh, Linux)
? Experience with 3D graphics applications is a plus

Pixar Animation Studios
Emeryville, CA
Full - Time
(Sorry, new visa sponsorship is not available.  Must be currently  
authorized to work in the US)

About Pixar Animation Studios:

Pixar Animation Studios combines creative and technical artistry to  
create original stories in the medium of computer animation.  Pixar  
has created six of the most successful and beloved animated films of  
all time: Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc.,  
Finding Nemo and The Incredibles.  Pixar has won 18 Academy Awards?  
and its six films have grossed more than $3.2 billion at the  
worldwide box office to date.  The Northern California studio will  
release its next film, Cars, on June 9, 2006.  JOIN OUR TEAM!


To apply please go to www.pixar.com. Click on "Company Info" then  
"Jobs" the "Sofware Development Engineer in Test." Or send resume AND  
cover letter to epalmore at pixar.com.

From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Mar 28 23:25:56 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:25:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <20060327152153.GA23013@panix.com>
References: <20060327152153.GA23013@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603281325q55fe06d5v2dd6a9906696a3ce@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/27/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> Anyone have a presentation they want to make for April 13?
>
> If nobody does, I have an idea: let's have people bring their laptops for
> sprinting.  Does IronPort have enough network connectivity in the room to
> support that?  This would be a good way for people who don't have
> experience with pair programming to try it out.

By the way, I wrote an exhaustive summary of the book "Professional
Software Development"
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321193679/002-8332939-1557638?v=glance&n=283155>
because I thought it was interesting.  If people are interested, I
could give it as a talk and answer questions from the point of view of
the author.  Alternatively, I could just blog it and save meeting time
for something more Pythonic.

-jj

From kseehof at neuralintegrator.com  Wed Mar 29 07:56:43 2006
From: kseehof at neuralintegrator.com (Ken Seehof)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:56:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Job announcement: Santa Cruz / Bay Area
In-Reply-To: <op.s6tsogl6oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0603211438420.760@S.culver.net>	<007b01c64d2c$f188c510$0a02a8c0@superioss.com>	<20060321215501.GA26436@panix.com>	<442078FD.6050104@RationalDiscovery.com>	<D72971AD-FAFC-47D2-9507-3C7DD1D0E82A@deirdre.net>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060321145909.00bf2040@localhost>	<20060322004533.GA14238@panix.com>
	<op.s6tsogl6oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <442A219B.3050101@neuralintegrator.com>

Zope/python contract programmer needed for small job.  Mostly work at home.

Requirements: Zope, familiarity with page templates, dtml, and script 
objects.
A link to a sample your previous work would also be helpful.

To get a rough idea of what we need, take a look at mock-ups at 
http://www.olscontrols.com
I have already implemented most of the infrustructure (database, 
setpoint calendar UI, and some charting tools).  I'm busy with other 
stuff, so I need someone to help wrap it up.

Ken Seehart
ken at seehart.com
(831) 479-7684



From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Mar 29 21:18:23 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:18:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <20060327152153.GA23013@panix.com>
References: <20060327152153.GA23013@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603291118y7b3b5d2fk1717ed8517ebca20@mail.gmail.com>

I have checked, and IronPort can provide wireless access.

-jj

On 3/27/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> Anyone have a presentation they want to make for April 13?
>
> If nobody does, I have an idea: let's have people bring their laptops for
> sprinting.  Does IronPort have enough network connectivity in the room to
> support that?  This would be a good way for people who don't have
> experience with pair programming to try it out.

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 30 18:33:22 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:33:22 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
Message-ID: <BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>

Hi JJ,

Your proposal sounds great. Two comments: 1) IDEs 2) Newbies

1) IDES. The (oft-repeated) suggestion for an head-to-head feature 
comparison of IDEs was good.
Seeing as you've asked everyone to bring their laptops anyway, how about we 
get people to demo their favorite IDE each for 3 minutes? from laptop hooked 
up to projector?

Jonathan Ellis PyCon 2006 IDE review of PyDev(Eclipse)/ SPE/ ActiveState
Komodo/ Wing with useful feature table:
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html

Jonathan Ellis Utah PyUG 2005 review of PyDev/Eric3/Boa 
Constructor/BlackAdder/Komodo 3.1/Wing IDE 2.0
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html

David Mertz 2003 IDE review of jEdit/IDLE/Leo/ (MacOS) PythonIDE/emacs:
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-cpyide/


2) Newbies: As commented previously, we haven't had a newbie presentation
or snippets evening for yonks (Jan 2005 in fact).
For Apr or May, is there any newbie burning to present something? have a 
neat snippet?
(I don't have anything to present, sorry)
It would be good to keep the balance and have a Beginner-level presentation
every 3-4 mths like in the old days.

PS What do UPS's for projectors cost? :) Seriously.
PPS do you have enough outlets or multiplugs?

Regards,
Stephen



From walterv at gbbservices.com  Thu Mar 30 21:02:23 2006
From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 11:02:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido van Rossum talk on Python's Future
Message-ID: <442C2B3F.1050907@gbbservices.com>

When:      Wednesday, April 5, 2006
Topic:     A Look At Python's Future
Speaker:   Guido van Rossum
Time:      7:00pm
Where:     eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay)
              2161 North First St
              San Jose, CA 95131
Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/cdg5u/>
Cost:      Free
More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>

Guido van Rossum is the creator of Python, one of the
major free scripting languages. He created Python in
the early 1990s at CWI in Amsterdam, and is still
actively involved in the development of the language.

In 1995 he moved to the US; first to work for CNRI in
Reston, VA as a researcher, then for Zope Corporation
as Director of PythonLabs, then, after a move to the
SF bay area, for Elemental Security, and then, since
December 2005, Google.

His home on the web is <http://www.python.org/~guido/>.

Upcoming ACCU talks:

- May 10, 2006: "A Gentle Introduction to Unicode" by Scott
Atwood

- June 14, 2006: "Python at Google" by Greg Stein

The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers please
email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com

Walter Vannini
President, Silicon Valley ACCU
<http://www.accu-usa.org/>
<http://www.gbbservices.com/>





From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Mar 31 07:28:12 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:28:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060331052811.GB28158@panix.com>

On Thu, Mar 30, 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote:
>
> 2) Newbies: As commented previously, we haven't had a newbie presentation
> or snippets evening for yonks (Jan 2005 in fact).

According to http://baypiggies.net/previous.html
the last newbie night was Jan 2006.  I don't know what "yonks" is,
though.  I personally think that having a live sprint is an appropriate
newbie activity, allowing newbies to pair up with experienced
programmers one-on-one.  If people want something else for April, that's
fine, but I haven't seen any other suggestion posted to the list.

(There has been some off-list traffic, which I think is inappropriate;
the entire community should be involved in making decisions about the
direction of BayPIGgies meetings.)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't
go calling it doubles."  --John Cleese anticipates Usenet

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 07:31:34 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:31:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <20060331052811.GB28158@panix.com>
References: <BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>
	<20060331052811.GB28158@panix.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>

>>a live sprint
Would someone describe what a sprint is ?

On 3/30/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote:
> >
> > 2) Newbies: As commented previously, we haven't had a newbie presentation
> > or snippets evening for yonks (Jan 2005 in fact).
>
> According to http://baypiggies.net/previous.html
> the last newbie night was Jan 2006.  I don't know what "yonks" is,
> though.  I personally think that having a live sprint is an appropriate
> newbie activity, allowing newbies to pair up with experienced
> programmers one-on-one.  If people want something else for April, that's
> fine, but I haven't seen any other suggestion posted to the list.
>
> (There has been some off-list traffic, which I think is inappropriate;
> the entire community should be involved in making decisions about the
> direction of BayPIGgies meetings.)
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't
> go calling it doubles."  --John Cleese anticipates Usenet
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From nnorwitz at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 07:46:11 2006
From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:46:11 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>
	<20060331052811.GB28158@panix.com>
	<8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee2a432c0603302146n7c9ebd4ev3ac1b766744c712b@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/30/06, Tony C <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>a live sprint
> Would someone describe what a sprint is ?

>From http://us.pycon.org/TX2006/Sprinting

A sprint is a focused development session, in which developers pair in
a room and focus on building a particular subsystem. A sprint is
organized with a coach leading the session. The coach sets the agenda,
tracks activities, and keeps the development moving. The developers
will sometimes work in pairs using the Extreme Programming (XP) pair
programming approach.

The sprint approach works best when the first few hours are spent
getting oriented -- presenting a tutorial for the development
material, laying out the stories to tackle for the day, getting
everyone a CVS or SVN checkout to work with.

n

From ben at groovie.org  Fri Mar 31 08:05:12 2006
From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:05:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <20060327152153.GA23013@panix.com>
References: <20060327152153.GA23013@panix.com>
Message-ID: <5E391BA8-9000-4DCA-9F0B-3B198BCF2D6D@groovie.org>

On Mar 27, 2006, at 7:21 AM, Aahz wrote:

> Anyone have a presentation they want to make for April 13?

I have a presentation on "WSGI, WSGI Middleware, and the Future of  
Python Web Development" I've been working on. Not sure I can have it  
ready for April 13th though, if anyone is interested.

- Ben

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Mar 31 09:26:51 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 23:26:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for presenters on your IDEs for Apr 13th
 mtg? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603302323550.17078-100000@localhost.localdomain>


Here's what happened off line.  I don't know why, maybe to save
bandwidth for the rest of the community?

I'm not attached to the IDE presentation idea, but I am willing.

Marilyn

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:18:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com>
To: Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com>
Cc: drewp at bigasterisk.com, jimmy at averdevelopment.com, aahz at pythoncraft.com,
     harrington_chad at hotmail.com, DennisR at dair.com, walterv at gbbservices.com,
     keith at kdart.com, iiourov at yahoo.com, annaraven at gmail.com, jjinux at gmail.com,
     nnorwitz at gmail.com, cappy2112 at gmail.com, ben at groovie.org,
     scottyg at CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, jjabson at yahoo.com, mrbmahoney at gmail.com,
     tungwaiyip at yahoo.com, jxd6 at hotmail.com, dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Looking for presenters on your IDEs for Apr 13th
    mtg?

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote:

> Hi Drew, Jimmy, Aahz, Neal, Tony, Ben, Chad, Marilyn, Dennis, Walter, Keith, 
> Ilia, Anna, JJ, Neal, Scott, Jerome, Brian, Wai Yip, Danny, John,
> 
> I am suggesting covering IDEs at Ironport Apr 13 mtg (among other things); I 
> had sent out a mail today (I should have addressed it to "Aahz+everyone" not 
> to JJ, my mistake).
> Anyway please take a look at my email suggestion at:
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-March/000321.html
> - it has links to Jonathan Ellis's excellent reviews and feature matrix, 
> also David Mertz's
> 
> (JJ points out that I can't "volunteer" other people (and shouldn't try 
> to).)
> Anyway, would a couple of you be able to volunteer to do a *brief 3-minute 
> presentation* on your pet IDE from your laptop to projector at Apr mtg (I 
> would but I do not have a usable laptop currently)
> - can we get a person at least for the 5/6 major ones:
> 
> ActiveState -> ?
> Komodo -> ?
> Wing IDE -> ?
> jEdit -> Ilia?
> Boa Constructor -> anyone? (Drew maybe?)
> BlackAdder -> ?
> PyDev(Eclipse) -> ?
> SPE -> ?
> PyDev -> ?
> Eric3 -> ?
> plain old IDLE -> ?
> plain old emacs -> ?
> plain old vi (+ctags) -> Keith or Aahz?
> Jimmy you use Scite + enhancements don't you?

I can do plain ole emacs, which I love.

But, I have to leave by 8:30 and I'd love to see some other
presentations.  I'm happy to give mine first and at the advertised
start time, even if I'm the only person there.

Marilyn Davis


> 
> (If you want to know what I'm volunteering to do, I decided to bite the 
> bullet and do the survey. Not guaranteed for April though. Probably survey 
> by May.)
> 
> Regards,
> Stephen
> 
> 
> 

-- 



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Mar 31 16:22:53 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 06:22:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: reposting private e-mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603302323550.17078-100000@localhost.localdomain>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603302323550.17078-100000@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20060331142253.GC1676@panix.com>

<admin hat on>

On Thu, Mar 30, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
> 
> Here's what happened off line.  I don't know why, maybe to save
> bandwidth for the rest of the community?

Even with that widely spread a To: list, please do not re-post private
e-mail without permission.  You never know when someone might have e.g.
included a phone number they don't want broadcast.  It's almost
impossible to remove a list post from the python.org archives.

(It's not a big deal this time, I just want to clarify the list rules.)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't
go calling it doubles."  --John Cleese anticipates Usenet

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Mar 31 16:36:54 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 06:36:54 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>
	<20060331052811.GB28158@panix.com>
	<8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060331143654.GD1676@panix.com>

READ THIS FIRST: two weeks is a relatively short setup time for what I'm
proposing.  If someone is prepared to do a presentation or has a better
idea for the meeting, please post NOW.


On Thu, Mar 30, 2006, Tony C wrote:
>
>>>a live sprint
>
> Would someone describe what a sprint is ?

Neal gave a good technical response; my thought for the April meeting
would be to do something a good deal more casual.  Basically people would
pair up [1] for extreme programming [2] on a small piece of a live
project.  Either an experienced programmer would help a newbie with zir
work or the newbie would work on something with the experienced
programmer.  I'd expect that each group of two people would be working on
something different from the other groups; the primary goal here would be
to practice pair programming and test-driven development [3], not to
actually get lots of work done.

(As Neal pointed out, real sprints work best when there's a substantial
tutorial for newbies; sprints usually last three or four full days.  It's
not at all clear to me whether what I'm proposing would work, but if it
does, it would be a good model for other groups training newbies.  Worth
a shot, I think.)

[1] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/pair.html
[2] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/
[3] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/testfirst.html
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't
go calling it doubles."  --John Cleese anticipates Usenet

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Mar 31 18:07:16 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:07:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: reposting private e-mail
In-Reply-To: <20060331142253.GC1676@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603310743280.17078-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006, Aahz wrote:

> <admin hat on>
> 
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
> > 
> > Here's what happened off line.  I don't know why, maybe to save
> > bandwidth for the rest of the community?
> 
> Even with that widely spread a To: list, please do not re-post private
> e-mail without permission.  You never know when someone might have e.g.
> included a phone number they don't want broadcast.  It's almost
> impossible to remove a list post from the python.org archives.
> 
> (It's not a big deal this time, I just want to clarify the list rules.)

Thank you Aahz.  I didn't know that old rule still existed here.

Baypiggies list people, please don't send me private mail about
baypiggies business.  That puts me between a rock and hard place
because I have a rule *not* to respect the privacy of email sent to me
because of my participation in an email list -- unless there is a
prior agreement.

Agreed that there is no issue this time, but if unpleasant private
mail comes to a person because of her participation in an email list,
I think it is her right and duty to post it to the list so that
everyone is aware of the behavior, and so that she doesn't have to
bear the pain of it alone.  A rule like baypiggies', although it is
the traditional ole internet rule, invites private abuse.

And as a rule, I don't participate in secrecy so please don't ask me
-- unless we are making plans for a surprise party.

I do have a sense of what is appropriate, I think.  So if you invite
me to lunch, I won't post that.

And as a rule, I don't have rules.  ;^)

Thank you for listening.

Marilyn



> 

-- 


From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 18:24:23 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:24:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for presenters on your IDEs for Apr 13th
	mtg?
In-Reply-To: <20060331071024.Q30294@soda.csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <BAY103-F25A3773C06EAF28CC1395A0D60@phx.gbl>
	<8249c4ac0603302119p4d2fadfdkc4c1c4f09657a364@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060331071024.Q30294@soda.csua.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603310824i1bf8f0a8t5fb33214745c944c@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/31/06, Scott Garrison <scottyg at csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm still looking to carpool with someone.  I live in Oakland, but would
> meet someone anywhere BART goes.
>
> thanks,
> Scott
>
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2006, Tony C wrote:
>
> > I like the IDE review.
> > I used Black Adder for a very,very short time, but probably not long
> > enough to give a decent review of it.
> >
> > Stepehn- I'm up for Carpooling agian- send me a priavte email if your
> > interested.
> > There's another new BP member whom I told about the commute to
> > Ironport who may be interested too.
> >
> > On 3/30/06, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi Drew, Jimmy, Aahz, Neal, Tony, Ben, Chad, Marilyn, Dennis, Walter, Keith,
> >> Ilia, Anna, JJ, Neal, Scott, Jerome, Brian, Wai Yip, Danny, John,
> >>
> >> I am suggesting covering IDEs at Ironport Apr 13 mtg (among other things); I
> >> had sent out a mail today (I should have addressed it to "Aahz+everyone" not
> >> to JJ, my mistake).
> >> Anyway please take a look at my email suggestion at:
> >> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-March/000321.html
> >> - it has links to Jonathan Ellis's excellent reviews and feature matrix,
> >> also David Mertz's
> >>
> >> (JJ points out that I can't "volunteer" other people (and shouldn't try
> >> to).)
> >> Anyway, would a couple of you be able to volunteer to do a *brief 3-minute
> >> presentation* on your pet IDE from your laptop to projector at Apr mtg (I
> >> would but I do not have a usable laptop currently)
> >> - can we get a person at least for the 5/6 major ones:
> >>
> >> ActiveState -> ?
> >> Komodo -> ?
> >> Wing IDE -> ?
> >> jEdit -> Ilia?
> >> Boa Constructor -> anyone? (Drew maybe?)
> >> BlackAdder -> ?
> >> PyDev(Eclipse) -> ?
> >> SPE -> ?
> >> PyDev -> ?
> >> Eric3 -> ?
> >> plain old IDLE -> ?
> >> plain old emacs -> ?
> >> plain old vi (+ctags) -> Keith or Aahz?
> >> Jimmy you use Scite + enhancements don't you?
> >>
> >> (If you want to know what I'm volunteering to do, I decided to bite the
> >> bullet and do the survey. Not guaranteed for April though. Probably survey
> >> by May.)
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Stephen

I'm happy to talk about Vim + ctags.

As for being off list, I'll take the blame for that ;)  I felt it was
best to send email to specific people to see if they wanted to talk
about their IDEs rather than send a blanket email to everyone.  I know
that we're all so busy that it's easy to ignore the general requests
for volunteers, but it's harder to ignore an email addressed directly
to you.  I don't have any privacy issues--feel free to post the email
wherever you want ;)

-jj

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Mar 31 18:31:01 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:31:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for presenters on your IDEs for Apr 13th
 mtg?y
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90603310824i1bf8f0a8t5fb33214745c944c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603310829020.17078-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> On 3/31/06, Scott Garrison <scottyg at csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm still looking to carpool with someone.  I live in Oakland, but would
> > meet someone anywhere BART goes.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Scott
> >
> > On Thu, 30 Mar 2006, Tony C wrote:
> >
> > > I like the IDE review.
> > > I used Black Adder for a very,very short time, but probably not long
> > > enough to give a decent review of it.
> > >
> > > Stepehn- I'm up for Carpooling agian- send me a priavte email if your
> > > interested.
> > > There's another new BP member whom I told about the commute to
> > > Ironport who may be interested too.
> > >
> > > On 3/30/06, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Hi Drew, Jimmy, Aahz, Neal, Tony, Ben, Chad, Marilyn, Dennis, Walter, Keith,
> > >> Ilia, Anna, JJ, Neal, Scott, Jerome, Brian, Wai Yip, Danny, John,
> > >>
> > >> I am suggesting covering IDEs at Ironport Apr 13 mtg (among other things); I
> > >> had sent out a mail today (I should have addressed it to "Aahz+everyone" not
> > >> to JJ, my mistake).
> > >> Anyway please take a look at my email suggestion at:
> > >> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-March/000321.html
> > >> - it has links to Jonathan Ellis's excellent reviews and feature matrix,
> > >> also David Mertz's
> > >>
> > >> (JJ points out that I can't "volunteer" other people (and shouldn't try
> > >> to).)
> > >> Anyway, would a couple of you be able to volunteer to do a *brief 3-minute
> > >> presentation* on your pet IDE from your laptop to projector at Apr mtg (I
> > >> would but I do not have a usable laptop currently)
> > >> - can we get a person at least for the 5/6 major ones:
> > >>
> > >> ActiveState -> ?
> > >> Komodo -> ?
> > >> Wing IDE -> ?
> > >> jEdit -> Ilia?
> > >> Boa Constructor -> anyone? (Drew maybe?)
> > >> BlackAdder -> ?
> > >> PyDev(Eclipse) -> ?
> > >> SPE -> ?
> > >> PyDev -> ?
> > >> Eric3 -> ?
> > >> plain old IDLE -> ?
> > >> plain old emacs -> ?
> > >> plain old vi (+ctags) -> Keith or Aahz?
> > >> Jimmy you use Scite + enhancements don't you?
> > >>
> > >> (If you want to know what I'm volunteering to do, I decided to bite the
> > >> bullet and do the survey. Not guaranteed for April though. Probably survey
> > >> by May.)
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Stephen
> 
> I'm happy to talk about Vim + ctags.

I'd be very interested hearing about that, and other ide's.  If it
doesn't happen in April, I hope it happens soon.

> 
> As for being off list, I'll take the blame for that ;)  I felt it was
> best to send email to specific people to see if they wanted to talk
> about their IDEs rather than send a blanket email to everyone.  I know
> that we're all so busy that it's easy to ignore the general requests
> for volunteers, but it's harder to ignore an email addressed directly
> to you.  I don't have any privacy issues--feel free to post the email
> wherever you want ;)

Thank you.  I hope I didn't embarrass anyone, except myself.  And I'm
used to that.  :^)

Marilyn

> 
> -jj
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 18:25:13 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:25:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <5E391BA8-9000-4DCA-9F0B-3B198BCF2D6D@groovie.org>
References: <20060327152153.GA23013@panix.com>
	<5E391BA8-9000-4DCA-9F0B-3B198BCF2D6D@groovie.org>
Message-ID: <5538c19b0603310825p7123b33do67d4e0c80e69c2de@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I would be interested in a presentation about Python and the Web.

On 3/30/06, Ben Bangert <ben at groovie.org> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 2006, at 7:21 AM, Aahz wrote:
>
> > Anyone have a presentation they want to make for April 13?
>
> I have a presentation on "WSGI, WSGI Middleware, and the Future of
> Python Web Development" I've been working on. Not sure I can have it
> ready for April 13th though, if anyone is interested.
>
> - Ben
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 18:33:24 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:33:24 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <20060331143654.GD1676@panix.com>
References: <BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>
	<20060331052811.GB28158@panix.com>
	<8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060331143654.GD1676@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90603310833x1dcc86d5l5bf52fc815d84466@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/31/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> READ THIS FIRST: two weeks is a relatively short setup time for what I'm
> proposing.  If someone is prepared to do a presentation or has a better
> idea for the meeting, please post NOW.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2006, Tony C wrote:
> >
> >>>a live sprint
> >
> > Would someone describe what a sprint is ?
>
> Neal gave a good technical response; my thought for the April meeting
> would be to do something a good deal more casual.  Basically people would
> pair up [1] for extreme programming [2] on a small piece of a live
> project.  Either an experienced programmer would help a newbie with zir
> work or the newbie would work on something with the experienced
> programmer.  I'd expect that each group of two people would be working on
> something different from the other groups; the primary goal here would be
> to practice pair programming and test-driven development [3], not to
> actually get lots of work done.
>
> (As Neal pointed out, real sprints work best when there's a substantial
> tutorial for newbies; sprints usually last three or four full days.  It's
> not at all clear to me whether what I'm proposing would work, but if it
> does, it would be a good model for other groups training newbies.  Worth
> a shot, I think.)
>
> [1] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/pair.html
> [2] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/
> [3] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/testfirst.html

Aahz, I like your proposal!  Perhaps we can consider killing three
birds with one stone.  If we break the meeting up into three sections,
we can have:

30 minutes for talking about IDEs.  Hopefully we can get multiple
people to give 5-10 minute overviews.

30 minutes for answering random newbie questions.  Hopefully we can
inspire some real-life newbies to come ;)

30 minutes for random hacking.  This can include helping newbies with
specific problems, sharing editor configurations (my .vimrc is *da
bomb*), etc.

I think structuring the meeting this way might lead to a energizing experience.

Does everyone else like (+1) or dislike (-1) this idea?

Thanks,
-jj

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Mar 31 18:39:11 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:39:11 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: reposting private e-mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603310743280.17078-100000@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20060331142253.GC1676@panix.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0603310743280.17078-100000@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20060331163911.GA19031@panix.com>

On Fri, Mar 31, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>
> Agreed that there is no issue this time, but if unpleasant private
> mail comes to a person because of her participation in an email list,
> I think it is her right and duty to post it to the list so that
> everyone is aware of the behavior, and so that she doesn't have to
> bear the pain of it alone.  A rule like baypiggies', although it is
> the traditional ole internet rule, invites private abuse.

Well, I certainly encourage people to respond publicly to harassment and
abuse -- with the caveat that I also encourage people to think carefully
before assuming that something is indeed harassment and abuse.  Geeks are
well-known for, er, lacking social skills, and I've seen a few tempests
in a teapot due to being too quick on the trigger.

I encourage people to take an in-between route as a first step and talk
with the list admins by sending e-mail to baypiggies-owner at python.org

In any case, the bottom line is that the base rule is never to post
private e-mail publicly unless overridden by some specific other
appropriate reason.  I think people should feel generally comfortable
sending private e-mail to keep off-topic clutter away from the list.

(Let me close by noting that I do understand where you're coming from;
there certainly have been "privacy fetishists" who have attempted to use
"no posting of private e-mail" as cover for their harassment and abuse.
That's not going to happen on the BayPIGgies list if I have any say.)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't
go calling it doubles."  --John Cleese anticipates Usenet

From ju.1996 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 18:47:27 2006
From: ju.1996 at gmail.com (Julio Santos)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:47:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90603310833x1dcc86d5l5bf52fc815d84466@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>
	<20060331052811.GB28158@panix.com>
	<8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060331143654.GD1676@panix.com>
	<c41f67b90603310833x1dcc86d5l5bf52fc815d84466@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d20fa9f90603310847s5fadf826rb882240d3521e9a4@mail.gmail.com>

> 30 minutes for talking about IDEs.  Hopefully we can get multiple
> people to give 5-10 minute overviews.
>
> 30 minutes for answering random newbie questions.  Hopefully we can
> inspire some real-life newbies to come ;)
>
> 30 minutes for random hacking.  This can include helping newbies with
> specific problems, sharing editor configurations (my .vimrc is *da
> bomb*), etc.

I'm a real-life newbie planning on coming. I like the format :)

+1

--
Julio
blog: http://morgane.com

From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Mar 31 18:50:37 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:50:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <20060331143654.GD1676@panix.com>
References: <8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>
	<20060331052811.GB28158@panix.com>
	<8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060331072959.00c1eea8@localhost>

At 06:36 AM 3/31/2006, Aahz wrote:
>Either an experienced programmer would help a newbie with zir
>work or the newbie would work on something with the experienced
>programmer.

Either/or?  I think I have some understanding of some aspects of Python 
programming (Regular expressions, various internet standards, Windows 
interface).  But I would have to be walked through pair programming rules 
and commonly used source control (I rolled my own).  Since I am using 
Windows and work on my own, I am expert/novice at different things than 
some others.

Bringing my notebook for live experimentation would be a barrier. I 
normally do a backup before I travel and usually need to change TCP/IP and 
security settings if I connect outside my own network.  Ironport is a long 
drive to just show up and see what happens so I am likely to pass on this 
meeting topic.

>[1] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/pair.html
>[2] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/
>[3] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/testfirst.html

I have not read this but it sounds like there is enough material here for a 
standard presentation.  I would like to see a real presentation.

Aahz, I would be willing to split the meeting with you/someone.  I could 
put together a 45 minute regular expression tutorial.  I could include 
interfacing to Windows via ctypes material to fill out an entire 
meeting.  Later this year, I may have something interesting to say on 
http/https programming (especially https debug) but it is too early now ...

Regards, Dennis

----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 20:04:53 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:04:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90603310833x1dcc86d5l5bf52fc815d84466@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>
	<20060331052811.GB28158@panix.com>
	<8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060331143654.GD1676@panix.com>
	<c41f67b90603310833x1dcc86d5l5bf52fc815d84466@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0603311004i252e54fagb640ff6f2beb1909@mail.gmail.com>

I think trying to cover too much ground in one evening makes for haste.

A possible alternative is to have the sprint session for the entire meeting.

Then at an upcoming meeting, go in depth into ID'Es instead of 5 minutes.
Some IDE's will require more in-depth coverage than is usefull in 5 minutes.
I'm sure each one will invoke many questions, which makes that
presentation run longer.
(consider discussing out-of-process debugging with an IDE, as well as
other signifcant features of that same IDE in 5 minutes. Why bother?)


On 3/31/06, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/31/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> > READ THIS FIRST: two weeks is a relatively short setup time for what I'm
> > proposing.  If someone is prepared to do a presentation or has a better
> > idea for the meeting, please post NOW.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 30, 2006, Tony C wrote:
> > >
> > >>>a live sprint
> > >
> > > Would someone describe what a sprint is ?
> >
> > Neal gave a good technical response; my thought for the April meeting
> > would be to do something a good deal more casual.  Basically people would
> > pair up [1] for extreme programming [2] on a small piece of a live
> > project.  Either an experienced programmer would help a newbie with zir
> > work or the newbie would work on something with the experienced
> > programmer.  I'd expect that each group of two people would be working on
> > something different from the other groups; the primary goal here would be
> > to practice pair programming and test-driven development [3], not to
> > actually get lots of work done.
> >
> > (As Neal pointed out, real sprints work best when there's a substantial
> > tutorial for newbies; sprints usually last three or four full days.  It's
> > not at all clear to me whether what I'm proposing would work, but if it
> > does, it would be a good model for other groups training newbies.  Worth
> > a shot, I think.)
> >
> > [1] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/pair.html
> > [2] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/
> > [3] http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/testfirst.html
>
> Aahz, I like your proposal!  Perhaps we can consider killing three
> birds with one stone.  If we break the meeting up into three sections,
> we can have:
>
> 30 minutes for talking about IDEs.  Hopefully we can get multiple
> people to give 5-10 minute overviews.
>
> 30 minutes for answering random newbie questions.  Hopefully we can
> inspire some real-life newbies to come ;)
>
> 30 minutes for random hacking.  This can include helping newbies with
> specific problems, sharing editor configurations (my .vimrc is *da
> bomb*), etc.
>
> I think structuring the meeting this way might lead to a energizing experience.
>
> Does everyone else like (+1) or dislike (-1) this idea?
>
> Thanks,
> -jj
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Mar 31 20:30:37 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:30:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0603311004i252e54fagb640ff6f2beb1909@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0603311008570.17078-100000@localhost.localdomain>


On Fri, 31 Mar 2006, Tony C wrote:

> I think trying to cover too much ground in one evening makes for haste.

I agree.  

A sprint experience sounds fun.  I've never done one.  But, if people
are collaborating over laptops over a network, and collaborating over
specs and code, I can't imagine that a half hour could be a satisfying
experience.  But, like I said, I've never done one so I don't know.

> 
> A possible alternative is to have the sprint session for the entire meeting.
> 
> Then at an upcoming meeting, go in depth into ID'Es instead of 5 minutes.
> Some IDE's will require more in-depth coverage than is usefull in 5 minutes.
> I'm sure each one will invoke many questions, which makes that
> presentation run longer.
> (consider discussing out-of-process debugging with an IDE, as well as
> other signifcant features of that same IDE in 5 minutes. Why bother?)

This sounds like a good plan to me.  I'd like to see some slightly
deep info about some IDE's.

> On 3/31/06, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 3/31/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> > > READ THIS FIRST: two weeks is a relatively short setup time for what I'm
> > > proposing.  If someone is prepared to do a presentation or has a better
> > > idea for the meeting, please post NOW.

Re-reading this "READ THIS FIRST", in depth IDE's could come first *if*
we find enough people to give presentations by then: 6?

Here was the original IDE list, (from private mail!) and, as as far as
I can remember, the list of solid volunteers:
                                                     Volunteer
> >> ActiveState -> ?
> >> Komodo -> ?
> >> Wing IDE -> ?
> >> jEdit -> Ilia?
> >> Boa Constructor -> anyone? (Drew maybe?)
> >> BlackAdder -> ?
> >> PyDev(Eclipse) -> ?
> >> SPE -> ?
> >> PyDev -> ?
> >> Eric3 -> ?
> >> plain old IDLE -> ?
> >> plain old emacs -> ?                            Marilyn
> >> plain old vi (+ctags) -> Keith or Aahz?         JJ
> >> Jimmy you use Scite + enhancements don't you?

Newbie questions could fall out of either activity.

Marilyn



From wescpy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 22:25:37 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:25:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90603310833x1dcc86d5l5bf52fc815d84466@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY103-F8801BCD0E2EAF4718012AA0D10@phx.gbl>
	<20060331052811.GB28158@panix.com>
	<8249c4ac0603302131y7e7ca978scd79f7fecc96a49f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060331143654.GD1676@panix.com>
	<c41f67b90603310833x1dcc86d5l5bf52fc815d84466@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580603311225m3467f8ddv151a972a6f7f9d51@mail.gmail.com>

> talking about IDEs.  Hopefully we can get multiple
> people to give 5-10 minute overviews.

April 13


> answering random newbie questions.  Hopefully we can
> inspire some real-life newbies to come ;)

May 11


> random hacking.  This can include helping newbies with
> specific problems, sharing editor configurations (my .vimrc is *da
> bomb*), etc.

June 8

+1 +1 +1 for each.  :-)

-wesley