From mech422 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 01:58:43 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:58:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] OT: SCO vs. IBM round #99
Message-ID: <9a0545880606301658q60136a47ue640165069133ab6@mail.gmail.com>

Hadn't seen it mentioned here, and thought people might be interested.
 Big ruling in IBM's favor the other day - 190+ of SCO's
claims/complaints dropped from the IBM lawsuit.  full report here:
http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/IBM-718.pdf

Steve

From wescpy at gmail.com  Wed Jul  5 22:56:53 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:56:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ANN: Intro to Python course, Aug 16-18, San Francisco
Message-ID: <78b3a9580607051356k3a37941at8ebcb04330636c08@mail.gmail.com>

What:   (Intense) Intro to Python
When:  August 16-18, 2006
Where: San Francisco (SFO/San Bruno), CA, USA
Web:    http://cyberwebconsulting.com (click "Python Training" link)

Need to get up-to-speed with Python as quickly as possible?  Come join
us in beautiful Northern California for another one of our rigorous
Python training events! This is an intense introduction to Python
programming geared towards those who have some proficiency in another
high-level language. Topics include:

    * Syntax, Data Types, Operators, and Methods
    * Python's Objects and Memory Model
    * Errors and Exception Handling
    * Flow Control (Loops and Conditionals)
    * Writing Optimized Python
    * Files and Input/Output
    * Functions and Functional Programming Aspects
    * Modules and Packages
    * OOP: Classes, Methods, Instances, Class Customization, Inheritance
    * Execution Environment
    * Operating System Interface
    * Advanced Topics and Python Updates

This course will take place in San Bruno right near the San Francisco
International Airport at the:

Staybridge Suites
San Francisco Airport
1350 Huntington Ave
San Bruno, CA  94066 USA
+1-650-588-0770

LOCALS: easy freeway (101/280/380) and public transit (BART and
CalTrain) access: San Bruno stations

VISITORS: free shuttle to/from the airport, free high-speed internet
cxn, free breakfast and evening reception daily

The cost is $1095 per attendee.  Discounts are available for multiple
registrations as well as teachers/students and those with financial
hardship.  For more information and registration, go to the website
above.

Registration is also now open for our next Advanced Python course,
taking place at the same location in November 2006. See website for
more details.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From keith at kdart.com  Sat Jul  8 06:02:33 2006
From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 21:02:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] meeting agenda?
Message-ID: <20060707210233.7605e947@psyche.corp.google.com>

Is the meeting agent for the July meeting going to be up on the web
page any time soon? ;-)


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 06:19:00 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:19:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] meeting agenda?
In-Reply-To: <20060707210233.7605e947@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20060707210233.7605e947@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <44AF3234.6040700@gmail.com>

Keith Dart wrote:
> Is the meeting agent for the July meeting going to be up on the web
> page any time soon? ;-)
>
>
>   
That's my fault, guys. I'm swamped at the moment. I'll try and get it 
online by tomorrow afternoon..

Tony C if you could cover for this month..it'd be great..if not..I'll 
get to it tomorrow.

I can't tonight..I'm under the gun.

Donna M. Snow

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 18:30:47 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 09:30:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] meeting agenda?
In-Reply-To: <44AF3234.6040700@gmail.com>
References: <20060707210233.7605e947@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<44AF3234.6040700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0607080930n52156842v29a6c92ea6145ecc@mail.gmail.com>

I've just returned from being out of town for 10 days.
I haven't logged into the site in a long time- I don't even remember the
login id and pwd



On 7/7/06, Donna M. Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Keith Dart wrote:
> > Is the meeting agent for the July meeting going to be up on the web
> > page any time soon? ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> That's my fault, guys. I'm swamped at the moment. I'll try and get it
> online by tomorrow afternoon..
>
> Tony C if you could cover for this month..it'd be great..if not..I'll
> get to it tomorrow.
>
> I can't tonight..I'm under the gun.
>
> Donna M. Snow
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 19:12:45 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:12:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] meeting agenda?
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0607080930n52156842v29a6c92ea6145ecc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060707210233.7605e947@psyche.corp.google.com>	
	<44AF3234.6040700@gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0607080930n52156842v29a6c92ea6145ecc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44AFE78D.9070602@gmail.com>

No problem Tony..I'm planning on getting site updated today.

Donna

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Sat Jul  8 22:22:52 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 13:22:52 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] meeting agenda?
In-Reply-To: <44AF3234.6040700@gmail.com>
References: <20060707210233.7605e947@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<44AF3234.6040700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44B0141C.4000702@gmail.com>

Meeting info for July 13th is online :-) (sorry for delay guys..I'll do 
better next time)

Donna M. Sn ow

From b8sjidb02 at sneakemail.com  Sun Jul  9 00:09:47 2006
From: b8sjidb02 at sneakemail.com (Russ Paielli)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 15:09:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] suggested meeting topic
Message-ID: <44B02D2B.3070708@sneakemail.com>

Hello baypiggies,

I just joined your group a few days ago. I have been using Python for 
about three years for my work at NASA Ames in air traffic management. I 
have recently been using Python for a prototype of a conflict alerting 
system for air traffic controllers. If you are interested, I will be 
glad to give a briefing on it at one of your meetings in Mountain View.

I have also developed a nifty Python class/package for handling physical 
units. I am using it for the conflict alerting system. You can download 
it or read about it at

http://RussP.us/scalar.htm

I am always open to suggestions for improvement, of course.

I will be out of town for the July meeting, but I will plan to attend 
the September meeting. Let me know if you are interested in a briefing 
on my work.

Regards,

Russ Paielli
Aerospace Engineer
NASA Ames Research Center

From DennisR at dair.com  Sun Jul  9 00:25:10 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 15:25:10 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] suggested meeting topic
In-Reply-To: <44B02D2B.3070708@sneakemail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060708151556.00b91270@localhost>

At 03:09 PM 7/8/2006, Russ Paielli wrote:
>http://RussP.us/scalar.htm
>
>I will be out of town for the July meeting, but I will plan to attend
>the September meeting.

Hi Russ,

I am coordinating the meetings.  The next open Google meeting is in 
November.  I will be out of town for the July meeting myself and so I will 
be attending via video.

I would like to follow up with with you late in July, after the conference 
I am attending.  Please ping me if I fail.  We can work off the mailing 
list.  Here I have copied the list so everyone knows your offer has been 
taken up.

Thanks, Dennis



----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  9 01:35:49 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 16:35:49 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] suggested meeting topic
In-Reply-To: <44B02D2B.3070708@sneakemail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F2B94C7728E9AFBEB16932A0750@phx.gbl>

Russ,

Sounds very interesting.

This may be off-topic, but have or other folks there tried vPython? (for 
visualization, if you ever do that)
www.vpython.org

Regards,
Stephen



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Jul  9 05:51:34 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 20:51:34 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] suggested meeting topic
In-Reply-To: <44B02D2B.3070708@sneakemail.com>
References: <44B02D2B.3070708@sneakemail.com>
Message-ID: <20060709035134.GA27735@panix.com>

On Sat, Jul 08, 2006, Russ Paielli wrote:
>
> I have also developed a nifty Python class/package for handling physical 
> units. I am using it for the conflict alerting system. You can download 
> it or read about it at
> 
> http://RussP.us/scalar.htm

Sounds good!  Check out

http://starship.python.net/~hinsen/ScientificPython/

for comparison.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped
right there."  --Steve Gonedes

From b8sjidb02 at sneakemail.com  Sun Jul  9 21:47:22 2006
From: b8sjidb02 at sneakemail.com (Russ Paielli)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 12:47:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] suggested meeting topic
In-Reply-To: <20060709035134.GA27735@panix.com>
References: <44B02D2B.3070708@sneakemail.com>
	<20060709035134.GA27735@panix.com>
Message-ID: <44B15D4A.7040608@sneakemail.com>

Hello,

I saw ScientificPython a while back, and it looks very impressive but I 
have not used it. It is far more comprehensive than my scalar class, but 
let me briefly explain what I think is the unique contribution of my 
scalar class/package.

I started working on it basically as a training excercize. After I had 
it working, I decided to test it for efficiency. I was appalled at what 
I discovered. Operations on it were two orders of magnitude (~100x) 
slower than the same operations on float types! I considered that 
unacceptable.

I added an option to turn off the unit tracking and checks. However, 
this only sped it up by one order of magnitude, leaving it still an 
order of magnitude slower than built-in types. Apparently, just having 
it as a user-defined class slows it down considerably compared to 
built-in numeric types.

So I decided to try something more innovative. I wanted the user to be 
able to transparently switch from the scalar class to built-in types by 
changing only the import line. The user could then use the scalar class 
during development to catch unit errors, but then easily turn it off and 
revert back to built-in numeric types for efficient production runs.

I also wanted to be able to do it without the need to maintain two 
nearly identical files. This created a unique challenge that I 
eventually solved with a creative use of "execfile," but I won't go into 
the details here.

I welcome anyone to look at what I did and suggest a simpler alternative 
if there is one. All I ask is that you please try to understand the 
problem before you fire back.

Again, you can find the code at http://RussP.us/scalar.htm

Regards,
Russ


Aahz aahz-at-pythoncraft.com |Python Interest Group| wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 08, 2006, Russ Paielli wrote:
> 
>>I have also developed a nifty Python class/package for handling physical 
>>units. I am using it for the conflict alerting system. You can download 
>>it or read about it at
>>
>>http://RussP.us/scalar.htm
> 
> 
> Sounds good!  Check out
> 
> http://starship.python.net/~hinsen/ScientificPython/
> 
> for comparison.


From lhawthorn at google.com  Sun Jul  9 23:44:15 2006
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 14:44:15 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reminder: Please register for 7/13/05 Mtg.
Message-ID: <4869cee70607091444u7d214eb6l3c487e382f25de75@mail.google.com>

Hello everyone,

If you'll be attending the BayPIGgies Meeting at Google this Thursday,
July 13th, please add yourself to the attendee list on the wiki here:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings

Please sign up no later than end of day on Tuesday, July 11th.  I'll
be using the list on the wiki to pre-register you with security, thus
allowing you to avoid the dreaded visitor badge creation process in
the Lobby.

Look forward to seeing you on Thursday!

Best,
LH

-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Coordinator
Google Inc.

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 10 01:15:58 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 16:15:58 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reminder: Please register for 7/13/05 Mtg.
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70607091444u7d214eb6l3c487e382f25de75@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F20E5ACDCA829A9DEFB9A3DA06A0@phx.gbl>

Hi Leslie,

That page reveals all the attendee lists for upcoming mtgs.
I don't think you want this on the open web.
Some people may be sensitive to that.
http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings

Thanks for the organizing.

Rgds,
Stephen



From lhawthorn at google.com  Mon Jul 10 01:19:40 2006
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 16:19:40 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reminder: Please register for 7/13/05 Mtg.
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F20E5ACDCA829A9DEFB9A3DA06A0@phx.gbl>
References: <4869cee70607091444u7d214eb6l3c487e382f25de75@mail.google.com>
	<BAY103-F20E5ACDCA829A9DEFB9A3DA06A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4869cee70607091619g793140cck41e9bec78ee5c420@mail.google.com>

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for pointing that out - people can also email me directly if
they're concerned about their privacy.

Cheers,
LH

On 7/9/06, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Leslie,
>
> That page reveals all the attendee lists for upcoming mtgs.
> I don't think you want this on the open web.
> Some people may be sensitive to that.
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings
>
> Thanks for the organizing.
>
> Rgds,
> Stephen
>
>
>


-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Coordinator
Google Inc.

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 20:33:13 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:33:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reminder: Please register for 7/13/05 Mtg.
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F20E5ACDCA829A9DEFB9A3DA06A0@phx.gbl>
References: <4869cee70607091444u7d214eb6l3c487e382f25de75@mail.google.com>
	<BAY103-F20E5ACDCA829A9DEFB9A3DA06A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607101133w6af54d73p48dc0737ff8d3c26@mail.gmail.com>

(humor)
You know, personally, I think people are *far* too concerned about
privacy, although I've heard that Macs have increased privacy
controls.  Check it out!

(extreme viewer warning!)
http://ironorchid.com/jjinux/images/must_wear_shoes.jpg

-jj

On 7/9/06, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Leslie,
>
> That page reveals all the attendee lists for upcoming mtgs.
> I don't think you want this on the open web.
> Some people may be sensitive to that.
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings
>
> Thanks for the organizing.

From tpc247 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 21:11:01 2006
From: tpc247 at gmail.com (tpc247 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:11:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reminder: Please register for 7/13/05 Mtg.
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607101133w6af54d73p48dc0737ff8d3c26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4869cee70607091444u7d214eb6l3c487e382f25de75@mail.google.com>
	<BAY103-F20E5ACDCA829A9DEFB9A3DA06A0@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90607101133w6af54d73p48dc0737ff8d3c26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bae1efdf0607101211q3f1b491cn5f2a22296dba2eda@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/06, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> (humor)
> You know, personally, I think people are *far* too concerned about
> privacy, although I've heard that Macs have increased privacy
> controls.  Check it out!
>
> (extreme viewer warning!)
> http://ironorchid.com/jjinux/images/must_wear_shoes.jpg



you know, after seeing JJ in high heels and a red dress, and now in his
birthday suit, I'm eagerly anticipating the next installment: (clears
throat)

JJ's Python


-jj
>
>
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From bloomu.prof at gmail.com  Tue Jul 11 00:54:34 2006
From: bloomu.prof at gmail.com (R A Montante, Ph.D.)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 18:54:34 -0400
Subject: [Baypiggies] query about BayPIGgies Meeting
In-Reply-To: <mailman.41.1152525617.6507.baypiggies@python.org>
References: <mailman.41.1152525617.6507.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <44B2DAAA.6090109@gmail.com>

Hello, I'll be visiting San Francisco this weekend (arriving Thursday) 
and I have a couple of questions:

A) Are the BayPIGgies meetings open to the public? (I'm a python user 
from Pennsylvania.)

2) How can one get to the meeting from "downtown" San Francisco?
--- I'll be staying at the Ramada Plaza Downtown on Market Street, and 
I'd be very interested in using BART (or something) as opposed to 
renting a car for the night.

Thanks for any advice,
-bob,mon. (isolated python user in N.E. Pennsylvania)


>Subject: [Baypiggies] Reminder: Please register for 7/13/05 Mtg.
>Hello everyone,
>
>If you'll be attending the BayPIGgies Meeting at Google this Thursday,
>July 13th, please add yourself to the attendee list on the wiki here:
>
>http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings
>
>Please sign up no later than end of day on Tuesday, July 11th.  I'll
>be using the list on the wiki to pre-register you with security, thus
>allowing you to avoid the dreaded visitor badge creation process in
>the Lobby.
>
>Look forward to seeing you on Thursday!
>
>Best,
>LH
>
>  
>


-- 
-Robert Montante, Ph.D.
 Department of Mathematics, Computer Science and Statistics
 Bloomsburg University
 Bloomsburg, PA  17815    < bobmon[AT]acm[DOT]org >
 phone: 570-389-4624  	  < bobmon[AT]bloomu[DOT]edu >
--
"Ooh, drat these computers!  They're so naughty, and complex... I could *pinch* them!"


From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jul 11 01:10:15 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 16:10:15 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] query about BayPIGgies Meeting
In-Reply-To: <44B2DAAA.6090109@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.41.1152525617.6507.baypiggies@python.org>
	<44B2DAAA.6090109@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607101610j7a069c3aw23cd346d8557e7bc@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/06, R A Montante, Ph.D. <bloomu.prof at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello, I'll be visiting San Francisco this weekend (arriving Thursday)
> and I have a couple of questions:
>
> A) Are the BayPIGgies meetings open to the public? (I'm a python user
> from Pennsylvania.)

Absolutely.

> 2) How can one get to the meeting from "downtown" San Francisco?
> --- I'll be staying at the Ramada Plaza Downtown on Market Street, and
> I'd be very interested in using BART (or something) as opposed to
> renting a car for the night.

Take the BART down to San Bruno.  Then call me at (925) 209-6439.
I'll give you a ride the rest of the way.  I can drop you off in San
Francisco on my way home.

Naturally, you should call ahead to confirm ;)

> Thanks for any advice,
> -bob,mon. (isolated python user in N.E. Pennsylvania)

Best Regards,
-jj

From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Tue Jul 11 17:24:14 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:24:14 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Thursday, July 13, 6 pm
Message-ID: <5538c19b0607110824qd09986el5c3aa419ceed47db@mail.gmail.com>

For Thursday, July 13, I can coordinate a pre-meeting
dinner in Mountain View, before the BayPIGgies meeting
at Google ( Meeting details http://baypiggies.net/ )

Restaurant RVSPs may be sent to my email until
Thursday afternoon (earlier is better). We eat family-style,
there are vegetarian and non-vegetarian dishes.  Cost around
$10 per person, including tax and tip. Bring cash, please.

Start dinner at 6pm and I will keep things moving so that we
finish and get everyone headed towards Google to
complete sign-in before the 7:30 meeting start.
This worked out well and unhurried for the last Google
meeting.

The restaurant is Cafe Yulong in downtown Mountain View
(650) 960-1677
743 W Dana Street, 1/2 block from Castro where
Books, Inc is on the corner.
Parking lots all around, but downtown Mountain View
parking is still difficult.

It is a slightly out of the ordinary Chinese
restaurant.  This link has a downtown map and
additional information.
http://www.mountainviewca.net/restaurants/cafeyulong.html

I've made reservations under "Python" for 6pm
Thursday.

If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me
by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I may confirm
the headcount.

From bloomu.prof at gmail.com  Tue Jul 11 20:51:49 2006
From: bloomu.prof at gmail.com (R A Montante, Ph.D.)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 14:51:49 -0400
Subject: [Baypiggies] query about BayPIGgies Meeting
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607101610j7a069c3aw23cd346d8557e7bc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.41.1152525617.6507.baypiggies@python.org>
	<44B2DAAA.6090109@gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90607101610j7a069c3aw23cd346d8557e7bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44B3F345.6090204@gmail.com>

Wow, multiple ride offers!  You guys are really helpful.  Thank you!  
I've added my name to the attendee list on the wiki.

Tony, thank you very much, but JJ's offer sounds simpler for me.

JJ, I'd like to take you up on your offer.  Should I aim to be in San 
Bruno around 7pm, or earlier than that?


Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> On 7/10/06, R A Montante, Ph.D. <bloomu.prof at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 2) How can one get to the meeting from "downtown" San Francisco?
>
>
> Take the BART down to San Bruno.    ...
> I'll give you a ride the rest of the way.  I can drop you off in San
> Francisco on my way home.


thanks again,
-bob,mon.

From mech422 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 11 23:11:10 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 14:11:10 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Ater meeting drinks ?
Message-ID: <9a0545880607111411x500e84f1jc997709ad2daaa96@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

  Donna and I will prolly make a bit of a nite of it, maybe go have a
beer and shoot some pool after the meeting.  Any else interested ?

Steve

From mech422 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 11 23:16:02 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 14:16:02 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] OT: Email for Kids - ZooBuh
Message-ID: <9a0545880607111416r29d5cdaeke0910ea4931cceef@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

  Anyone with kids looking for a decent webmail for kids might want to
check zoobuh.com.  Its $1/month/child and has a 30 day free trial.  We
literally just signed up, but my son (14) found the interface easy to
use.  You can recieve copies of all messages to/from you children,
restrict correspondence to people in a white-list, block images, etc
etc.

Steve

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 12 02:15:18 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:15:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Ater meeting drinks ?
In-Reply-To: <9a0545880607111411x500e84f1jc997709ad2daaa96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F361A008E2FA0F934B65C54A0690@phx.gbl>


Shoreline Billiards (beside Rengstorff 101 onramp) around 10pm then?

Stephen


>From: "steve hindle" <mech422 at gmail.com>
>To: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
>Subject: [Baypiggies] Ater meeting drinks ?
>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 14:11:10 -0700
>
>Hi all,
>
>   Donna and I will prolly make a bit of a nite of it, maybe go have a
>beer and shoot some pool after the meeting.  Any else interested ?
>
>Steve
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>Baypiggies at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 12 03:52:19 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:52:19 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Ater meeting drinks ?
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F361A008E2FA0F934B65C54A0690@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F383F8DFDF326288DF971EEA0690@phx.gbl>


Correction - Shoreline Billiards  is at *Shoreline*/ 101 onramp (doh!), not 
Rengstorff.
So from Google, go left (east) on Charleston, then right(south) onto 
Shoreline, the mall is immediately on your right before 101 onramp.

Shoreline Billiards (http://www.shorelinebilliards.com/) is a large 
warehouse-like pool hall.
Yes it serves beer and has a jukebox.
Atmosphere is not very upscale but this is by far the closest pool hall to 
Google
that serves beer.
(If this sounds ok by you Steve?)

Regards,
Stephen

>From: "Stephen McInerney" <spmcinerney at hotmail.com>
>To: mech422 at gmail.com, baypiggies at python.org
>Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Ater meeting drinks ?
>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:15:18 -0700
>
>
>Shoreline Billiards (beside Rengstorff 101 onramp) around 10pm then?
>
>Stephen
>
>
> >From: "steve hindle" <mech422 at gmail.com>
> >To: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
> >Subject: [Baypiggies] Ater meeting drinks ?
> >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 14:11:10 -0700
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >   Donna and I will prolly make a bit of a nite of it, maybe go have a
> >beer and shoot some pool after the meeting.  Any else interested ?
> >
> >Steve
> >_______________________________________________
> >Baypiggies mailing list
> >Baypiggies at python.org
> >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>Baypiggies at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From mech422 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 04:47:09 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:47:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Ater meeting drinks ?
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F383F8DFDF326288DF971EEA0690@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F361A008E2FA0F934B65C54A0690@phx.gbl>
	<BAY103-F383F8DFDF326288DF971EEA0690@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607111947m41d1f4d4ve6106aa44154a2dd@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds good by me - looks like they have some good tables.  Hopefully
some good rock on the the jukebox... should be fun :-)

Steve

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Thu Jul 13 18:20:53 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:20:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] No Pythonwin demo tonight
Message-ID: <20060713162056.4E4BC1E400E@bag.python.org>

We regret to announce that Tony Cappellini won't be able to demo
Pythonwin tomorrow night due to a family situation.

However, we still have 4 demos lined up for you:

Wing IDE -- Mike Cheponis
XCode -- Mark Ivey
Vim -- Keith Dart
Emacs -- Marilyn Davis

See you tonight!

Marilyn Davis



From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Fri Jul 14 19:31:23 2006
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:31:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Last nights presentations
Message-ID: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com>

Hey everyone,

I unfortunately had to miss last nights presentations but I was still 
very much interested in the content.  Is there any chance that any 
information will be posted from last night? 

TIA!

-carl

-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jul 14 20:59:59 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 11:59:59 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wing IDE's License
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607141159j7d727ed1p822f527dd60bbc0b@mail.gmail.com>

Wing's license is <http://wingware.com/wingide/license>.  I'm an open
source zealot, but Wing is not open source.  However, they do give you
access to the source.  You can modify it and even distribute patches.
It reminds me of ATT UNIX.  I know Stallman would be disappointed with
me, but I'm thinking of trying it out.

I guess now is the time for some other free software fanatic to jump
in and rescue me from the evil clutches of proprietary software ;)

Best Regards,
-jj

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Jul 14 20:54:25 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 11:54:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Last nights presentations
In-Reply-To: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com>
References: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com>
Message-ID: <44B7E861.408@gmail.com>

Hi Carl,

Video of last nights presentations should be on video.google.com at some 
point. Leslie Hawthorne would know for sure when it'll go live.. I will 
post it to baypiggies.net as well..

Donna M. Snow

From zovirl1 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jul 14 21:04:10 2006
From: zovirl1 at sbcglobal.net (Mark Ivey)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 12:04:10 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Last nights presentations
In-Reply-To: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com>
References: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com>
Message-ID: <4FE266A6-0AAD-44A4-8F11-4F915B85A573@sbcglobal.net>


On Jul 14, 2006, at 10:31 AM, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> I unfortunately had to miss last nights presentations but I was still
> very much interested in the content.  Is there any chance that any
> information will be posted from last night?
>
> TIA!
>
> -carl

My information on XCode is here:
http://zovirl.com/2006/tags/xcode/

I understand Google also recorded the event and will put it on Google  
Video at some point.

-Mark Ivey-


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Jul 14 21:50:28 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 12:50:28 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Last nights presentations
Message-ID: <20060714195031.339861E400E@bag.python.org>


----- On Friday, July 14, 2006 cvanarsdall at mvista.com wrote:

> Hey everyone,
> 
> I unfortunately had to miss last nights presentations but I was still
> very much interested in the content.  Is there any chance that any
> information will be posted from last night?

The slides from the emacs demo are available:

http://maildance.com/python/emacs/

There's a pdf version and the odp.  odp is open office slideshow format.  If you can use that one, you get a few extra notes.

Marilyn

> 
> TIA!
> 
> -carl
> 
> --
> 
> Carl J. Van Arsdall
> cvanarsdall at mvista.com
> Build and Release
> MontaVista Software
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies





From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jul 14 22:09:45 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 13:09:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wing IDE's License
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607141159j7d727ed1p822f527dd60bbc0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90607141159j7d727ed1p822f527dd60bbc0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060714200945.GA17253@panix.com>

On Fri, Jul 14, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> Wing's license is <http://wingware.com/wingide/license>.  I'm an open
> source zealot, but Wing is not open source.  However, they do give you
> access to the source.  You can modify it and even distribute patches.
> It reminds me of ATT UNIX.  I know Stallman would be disappointed with
> me, but I'm thinking of trying it out.
> 
> I guess now is the time for some other free software fanatic to jump
> in and rescue me from the evil clutches of proprietary software ;)

My take is that I prefer Open Source, but since I'm happily running OSX,
obviously it's not a paramount consideration for me.  Why do you want to
use WingIDE?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan

From lhawthorn at google.com  Fri Jul 14 22:41:24 2006
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 13:41:24 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Last nights presentations
In-Reply-To: <44B7E861.408@gmail.com>
References: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com> <44B7E861.408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4869cee70607141341y490dd293n77559b8d07308687@mail.google.com>

Hi folks,

I'll ping the list when we get the videos up on video.google.com.

Cheers,
LH

On 7/14/06, Donna M. Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Carl,
>
> Video of last nights presentations should be on video.google.com at some
> point. Leslie Hawthorne would know for sure when it'll go live.. I will
> post it to baypiggies.net as well..
>
> Donna M. Snow
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Coordinator
Google Inc.

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jul 14 22:51:46 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 13:51:46 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wing IDE's License
In-Reply-To: <20060714200945.GA17253@panix.com>
References: <c41f67b90607141159j7d727ed1p822f527dd60bbc0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060714200945.GA17253@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607141351s5cb34c43wc8838fbc02900bef@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/14/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >
> > Wing's license is <http://wingware.com/wingide/license>.  I'm an open
> > source zealot, but Wing is not open source.  However, they do give you
> > access to the source.  You can modify it and even distribute patches.
> > It reminds me of ATT UNIX.  I know Stallman would be disappointed with
> > me, but I'm thinking of trying it out.
> >
> > I guess now is the time for some other free software fanatic to jump
> > in and rescue me from the evil clutches of proprietary software ;)
>
> My take is that I prefer Open Source, but since I'm happily running OSX,
> obviously it's not a paramount consideration for me.  Why do you want to
> use WingIDE?

The demo last night was quite impressive ;)

-jj

From mech422 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 14 23:16:39 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:16:39 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wing IDE's License
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607141159j7d727ed1p822f527dd60bbc0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90607141159j7d727ed1p822f527dd60bbc0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607141416t4cbbddj6fd9a6a2a18c4fb6@mail.gmail.com>

Zealotry aside - I'd check out Eclipse (w/pydev), and a couple of the
OSS offerings before shelling out $200....  For instance, wing reminds
me a lot of SPE - http://stani.be/python/spe/screenshots.

I'm NOT a big java fan - but Eclipse has good support for a wide
variety of languages, meaning I can learn just one toolset.  So thats
become my choice for 'production' use.

SPE has really nice 'interactive' features(pycrust shell, debugger,
etc.) that make it great for begginners, but it lacks 'project
management' features.

Anyway - I'd definitely recommend look at these before spending hard
currency :-)

Steve



On 7/14/06, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wing's license is <http://wingware.com/wingide/license>.  I'm an open
> source zealot, but Wing is not open source.  However, they do give you
> access to the source.  You can modify it and even distribute patches.
> It reminds me of ATT UNIX.  I know Stallman would be disappointed with
> me, but I'm thinking of trying it out.
>
> I guess now is the time for some other free software fanatic to jump
> in and rescue me from the evil clutches of proprietary software ;)
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jul 14 23:20:47 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:20:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wing IDE's License
In-Reply-To: <9a0545880607141416t4cbbddj6fd9a6a2a18c4fb6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90607141159j7d727ed1p822f527dd60bbc0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<9a0545880607141416t4cbbddj6fd9a6a2a18c4fb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607141420w206a8b2agceec48aed98c106e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/14/06, steve hindle <mech422 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Zealotry aside - I'd check out Eclipse (w/pydev), and a couple of the
> OSS offerings before shelling out $200....  For instance, wing reminds
> me a lot of SPE - http://stani.be/python/spe/screenshots.
>
> I'm NOT a big java fan - but Eclipse has good support for a wide
> variety of languages, meaning I can learn just one toolset.  So thats
> become my choice for 'production' use.
>
> SPE has really nice 'interactive' features(pycrust shell, debugger,
> etc.) that make it great for begginners, but it lacks 'project
> management' features.
>
> Anyway - I'd definitely recommend look at these before spending hard
> currency :-)

Ok, when are we going to see the demo for SPE and PyDev? ;)

-jj

From keith at kdart.com  Fri Jul 14 23:25:42 2006
From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:25:42 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Last nights presentations
In-Reply-To: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com>
References: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com>
Message-ID: <20060714142542.13f75884@psyche.corp.google.com>

Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote the following on 2006-07-14 at 10:31 PDT:
===
> I unfortunately had to miss last nights presentations but I was still 
> very much interested in the content.  Is there any chance that any 
> information will be posted from last night? 

===

I put my rather simple presentation up on my web site:

http://www.dartworks.biz/vim_ide/

However, most of it was a demonstration which is what you really need
to see. As others have noted, some videos (eek) of the presentations
will be on a Google site soon.


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Fri Jul 14 23:30:08 2006
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:30:08 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Last nights presentations
In-Reply-To: <20060714142542.13f75884@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com>
	<20060714142542.13f75884@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <44B80CE0.5040105@mvista.com>

Keith Dart wrote:
> Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote the following on 2006-07-14 at 10:31 PDT:
> ===
>   
>> I unfortunately had to miss last nights presentations but I was still 
>> very much interested in the content.  Is there any chance that any 
>> information will be posted from last night? 
>>     
>
> ===
>
> I put my rather simple presentation up on my web site:
>
> http://www.dartworks.biz/vim_ide/
>
> However, most of it was a demonstration which is what you really need
> to see. As others have noted, some videos (eek) of the presentations
> will be on a Google site soon.
>
>   
The fact that it will be on video is awesome.  Great idea and I hope 
that video is something that will happen at all future BayPiggies 
events.  Even better is that the video will allow me to more effectively 
relay information to my coworkers, so thanks very much to all that 
participated in setting that up.

Thanks!

-carl


-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From mech422 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 15 00:38:10 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 15:38:10 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Debian.org box rooted
Message-ID: <9a0545880607141538o3a690e15xab2b0de80ca96c77@mail.gmail.com>

Hey All,

  GMail just spit this up as a recent headline:
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009-6094335.html

If your running a linux box, you might want to check the vuln. and see
if your kernel needs updating.

Steve

From mech422 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 15 00:45:31 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 15:45:31 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Linux kernel vuln.
Message-ID: <9a0545880607141545o709fe2c2oe8ffcd163d6131a3@mail.gmail.com>

Ok - turns out its a local only exploit:
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/18874/info

it was actually discoved about a week ago, and patched kernels are
available.  It appears you can 'work around' this vuln. by
specificying the dump location if you can't upgrade kernel.

Steve

From wescpy at gmail.com  Sat Jul 15 01:12:03 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:12:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wing IDE's License
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607141420w206a8b2agceec48aed98c106e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90607141159j7d727ed1p822f527dd60bbc0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<9a0545880607141416t4cbbddj6fd9a6a2a18c4fb6@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90607141420w206a8b2agceec48aed98c106e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580607141612v503899ffra3cc70ac2235e03@mail.gmail.com>

> Ok, when are we going to see the demo for SPE and PyDev? ;)

so those along with PythonWin and Komodo are on the list for the next
IDE talk.  marilyn can update her running list.  :-)  i think we can
only afford to do 4 at a meeting anyway.  i felt we were already
crunched for time last nite.

-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Sat Jul 15 02:07:32 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:07:32 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Next demo night
Message-ID: <20060715000735.9A4C41E4009@bag.python.org>


----- On Friday, July 14, 2006 wescpy at gmail.com wrote:

>> Ok, when are we going to see the demo for SPE and PyDev? ;)
> 
> so those along with PythonWin and Komodo are on the list for the next
> IDE talk.  marilyn can update her running list.  :-)  i think we can
> only afford to do 4 at a meeting anyway.  i felt we were already
> crunched for time last nite.

Please remind me.  Our volunteers are:

PythonWin  -- Tony C.
Komodo 
SPE
PyDev    

Marilyn

> 
> -- wesley
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
> http://corepython.com
> 
> wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
> python training and technical consulting
> cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
> http://cyberwebconsulting.com
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Jul 15 02:37:35 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:37:35 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <20060715000735.9A4C41E4009@bag.python.org>
References: <20060715000735.9A4C41E4009@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607141737m647c013fic5e5bc6f4a7e950b@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/14/06, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
>
> ----- On Friday, July 14, 2006 wescpy at gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Ok, when are we going to see the demo for SPE and PyDev? ;)
> >
> > so those along with PythonWin and Komodo are on the list for the next
> > IDE talk.  marilyn can update her running list.  :-)  i think we can
> > only afford to do 4 at a meeting anyway.  i felt we were already
> > crunched for time last nite.
>
> Please remind me.  Our volunteers are:
>
> PythonWin  -- Tony C.
> Komodo
> SPE
> PyDev

By the way, there are some existing comparisons:

http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html

Nonetheless, I'm still in favor of having people talk about their favorite IDEs.

-jj

From mech422 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 15 02:45:06 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:45:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <20060715000735.9A4C41E4009@bag.python.org>
References: <20060715000735.9A4C41E4009@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607141745i2c7a2f4btc4baa0e4c0fd8186@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/14/06, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
>
> Please remind me.  Our volunteers are:
...
> PyDev

I can do PyDev at a Goggle meeting.  Although, I'd be surprised if we
didn't have some eclipse plug-in developers in the group.... They'd
probably be much more thorough.

Steve

From designmill at comcast.net  Sat Jul 15 06:23:15 2006
From: designmill at comcast.net (John Ivie)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:23:15 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wing IDE's License
In-Reply-To: AAAAACUlsoe0GnVOoR++zwzJrp/kyCUA
Message-ID: <20060715042252.6F6601E4004@bag.python.org>

Although I had to miss last night's meeting (working on an upcoming product
release deadline), I just wanted to mention that we are using the Wing IDE
integrated with our Python product at CiraNova. For what it is worth, it
seems to work well...

And of course, "hooks" have been provided in the product to allow it to work
with other available Python IDEs, besides Wing.


Thanks,
John Ivie


-----Original Message-----
From: baypiggies-bounces+designmill=comcast.net at python.org
[mailto:baypiggies-bounces+designmill=comcast.net at python.org] On Behalf Of
Shannon -jj Behrens
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 12:00 PM
To: Baypiggies
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wing IDE's License

Wing's license is <http://wingware.com/wingide/license>.  I'm an open
source zealot, but Wing is not open source.  However, they do give you
access to the source.  You can modify it and even distribute patches.
It reminds me of ATT UNIX.  I know Stallman would be disappointed with
me, but I'm thinking of trying it out.

I guess now is the time for some other free software fanatic to jump
in and rescue me from the evil clutches of proprietary software ;)

Best Regards,
-jj
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From ken at seehart.com  Sat Jul 15 20:42:01 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 11:42:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607141737m647c013fic5e5bc6f4a7e950b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060715000735.9A4C41E4009@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90607141737m647c013fic5e5bc6f4a7e950b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44B936F9.4010007@seehart.com>

I can do Komodo.  I can't commit to Ironport (may be possible though), but if
it's at Google I will commit to doing it.

- Ken Seehart


Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> On 7/14/06, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
>   
>> ----- On Friday, July 14, 2006 wescpy at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>     
>>>> Ok, when are we going to see the demo for SPE and PyDev? ;)
>>>>         
>>> so those along with PythonWin and Komodo are on the list for the next
>>> IDE talk.  marilyn can update her running list.  :-)  i think we can
>>> only afford to do 4 at a meeting anyway.  i felt we were already
>>> crunched for time last nite.
>>>       
>> Please remind me.  Our volunteers are:
>>
>> PythonWin  -- Tony C.
>> Komodo
>> SPE
>> PyDev
>>     
>
> By the way, there are some existing comparisons:
>
> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
>
> Nonetheless, I'm still in favor of having people talk about their favorite IDEs.
>
> -jj
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>   

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From andy_lists at bananabread.net  Sat Jul 15 08:03:11 2006
From: andy_lists at bananabread.net (Andrew Brown)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 23:03:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] GData and GCal
Message-ID: <44B8851F.7020100@bananabread.net>

I was looking into how to write to Google Calendar using GData and
Python. Google makes the API's available already for C# and Java, but
not Python, which suprised me slightly.

Has anyone else messed with this at all who would care to share notes
with me?


From brianomorchoe at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jul 16 13:21:19 2006
From: brianomorchoe at yahoo.co.uk (Brain Murphy)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 12:21:19 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python help
Message-ID: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hello,
  I am semi new to python, I bought a few books and am doing rather well, one of the books that I have is Beginning Python by Magnus Lie Hetland.In chapter 20, on page 395, he gives  "$ python simple_markup.py < test_input.txt > test_output.html"
  this is UNIX and I was wondering how to do this with cmd.
  Any help would be greatly appreciated.
  Brian

 		
---------------------------------
 The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider.
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Jul 16 15:11:16 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:11:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python help
In-Reply-To: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060716131115.GA8174@panix.com>

On Sun, Jul 16, 2006, Brain Murphy wrote:
>
>   I am semi new to python, I bought a few books and am doing rather
>   well, one of the books that I have is Beginning Python by Magnus
>   Lie Hetland.In chapter 20, on page 395, he gives "$ python
>   simple_markup.py < test_input.txt > test_output.html"
>   this is UNIX and I was wondering how to do this with cmd.

Tried doing it the same way?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan

From hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jul 16 19:35:39 2006
From: hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net (Laurence Clark)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 10:35:39 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python help
In-Reply-To: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44BA78EB.5090409@sbcglobal.net>

YEP, this works on Windows. If you want to send error messages to the 
output file it even work to tack
2>&1 on the end like this:

newcodewitherrors.py < input.txt > output.txt 2>&1


Brain Murphy wrote:

> Hello,
> I am semi new to python, I bought a few books and am doing rather 
> well, one of the books that I have is Beginning Python by Magnus Lie 
> Hetland.In chapter 20, on page 395, he gives  "$ python 
> simple_markup.py < test_input.txt > test_output.html"
> this is UNIX and I was wondering how to do this with cmd.
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> Brian
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The all-new Yahoo! Mail 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/nowyoucan/free_from_isp/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40565/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html> 
> goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet 
> provider.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>Baypiggies at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>  
>
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From ken at seehart.com  Mon Jul 17 06:21:11 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:21:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python help
In-Reply-To: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44BB1037.9040809@seehart.com>

I don't know exactly how much knowledge you have of unix and windows, so 
I will assume /almost zero/ knowledge.  That way I will have a good 
chance of filling in whatever detail is missing.  I am also assuming you 
are using Windows XP.

You will need to have python.exe in your execution path.  This allows 
you to run python from the command line.
To do this:
  Open your control panel (from the start menu)
  Select "System"
  Select the "Advanced" tab
  Select "Environment variables"
  Under the "System variables" list, select "Path"
  Edit the path: At the end of the path, add *"; C:\Python24"*, assuming 
you have installed python 2.4 to that location.
 (I think it would be nice if the Python installer would do this, since 
there is no reason to expect Windows users to know how to do this kind 
of configuration.)

Run cmd by selecting "Run" from the startup menu.

You should now have a command window.
  Change directory to where you want to play with python.
  Create and edit the test_input.txt file.
  Type "python simple_markup.py < test_input.txt > test_output.html"

The "$" at the beginning of your example is the Unix shell prompt, so 
you don't need to type it. 

Brain Murphy wrote:
> Hello,
> I am semi new to python, I bought a few books and am doing rather 
> well, one of the books that I have is Beginning Python by Magnus Lie 
> Hetland.In chapter 20, on page 395, he gives  "$ python 
> simple_markup.py < test_input.txt > test_output.html"
> this is UNIX and I was wondering how to do this with cmd.
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> Brian
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The all-new Yahoo! Mail 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/nowyoucan/free_from_isp/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40565/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html> 
> goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet 
> provider.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>   

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From DennisR at dair.com  Mon Jul 17 06:42:12 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:42:12 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python help
In-Reply-To: <44BB1037.9040809@seehart.com>
References: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060716213003.00bebc88@localhost>

At 09:21 PM 7/16/2006, Ken Seehart wrote:

>   Type "python simple_markup.py < test_input.txt > test_output.html"

Try

         simple_markup.py <test_input.txt >test_output.html

first, without specifying Python.  What I believe the installer already 
does is assign the .py to python.  Thus, I suspect the path setup steps can 
be dispensed with.

Also, I am unsure about the space between the ">" of "<" and following file 
spec so I closed the gap.

----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 17 06:48:24 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:48:24 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060716213003.00bebc88@localhost>
References: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<44BB1037.9040809@seehart.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060716213003.00bebc88@localhost>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0607162148m575ea8a8h6d69cd5f7d87f044@mail.gmail.com>

I've always had to manually add the C:\Program Files\Python2.x  directory to
my path, even after running the installer, with Admin priveledges, which I
find odd. But, I'm able to run my scripts in any directory afterwards.

>>does is assign the .py to python.  Thus, I suspect the path setup steps
> can
> >>be dispensed with.
>
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From mac at Wireless.Com  Wed Jul 19 03:23:04 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python-based wiki?
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0607162148m575ea8a8h6d69cd5f7d87f044@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<44BB1037.9040809@seehart.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060716213003.00bebc88@localhost>
	<8249c4ac0607162148m575ea8a8h6d69cd5f7d87f044@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0607181821190.849@S.culver.net>

Hi all,

I need to set up a simple wiki, and I figured, might as well make it Python-based.

I currently run Apache on NetBSD.

Any suggestions for a small, simple, easy-to-get-going Python wiki?

Thanks!

-Mike

From davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com  Wed Jul 19 04:37:34 2006
From: davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com (Monte Davidoff)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 19:37:34 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python-based wiki?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0607181821190.849@S.culver.net>
References: <20060716112119.52014.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<44BB1037.9040809@seehart.com>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060716213003.00bebc88@localhost>	<8249c4ac0607162148m575ea8a8h6d69cd5f7d87f044@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0607181821190.849@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <44BD9AEE.3050809@alluvialsw.com>

Mike Cheponis wrote:
> 
> I need to set up a simple wiki, and I figured, might as well make it Python-based.
> 
> I currently run Apache on NetBSD.
> 
> Any suggestions for a small, simple, easy-to-get-going Python wiki?

I am happy using MoinMoin <http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/> with Apache 
on Linux.  MoinMoin is the wiki engine behind the PythonInfo wiki at 
<http://wiki.python.org/moin/>.

Monte

From allison at shasta.stanford.edu  Wed Jul 19 04:59:38 2006
From: allison at shasta.stanford.edu (Dennis Allison)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 19:59:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python-based wiki?
In-Reply-To: <44BD9AEE.3050809@alluvialsw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0607181958470.15621-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>


MoinMoin with Twisted is nice and easy to configure.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, Monte Davidoff wrote:

> Mike Cheponis wrote:
> > 
> > I need to set up a simple wiki, and I figured, might as well make it Python-based.
> > 
> > I currently run Apache on NetBSD.
> > 
> > Any suggestions for a small, simple, easy-to-get-going Python wiki?
> 
> I am happy using MoinMoin <http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/> with Apache 
> on Linux.  MoinMoin is the wiki engine behind the PythonInfo wiki at 
> <http://wiki.python.org/moin/>.
> 
> Monte
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From Chris.Clark at ingres.com  Wed Jul 19 18:27:41 2006
From: Chris.Clark at ingres.com (Chris Clark)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:27:41 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python-based wiki?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0607181958470.15621-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0607181958470.15621-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <44BE5D7D.7010904@ingres.com>

Another recommendation for MoinMoin from me. If you just want to test 
drive it with out any hassle, just download the 
http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/DesktopEdition version. After extraction 
it runs in place with a built in web server (I've even run the personal 
edition from a USB drive) with zero setup. If you need to more 
scalability you can go with a proper web server later.

There are some great plug-ins/extensions and if you need to write one 
the plug-in architecture is easy to follow, e.g. check out 
http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MacroMarket/EventCalendar

Chris


From rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu  Wed Jul 19 17:44:01 2006
From: rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu (Robert Stephenson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:44:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Last presentations
In-Reply-To: <44B7E861.408@gmail.com>
References: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com> <44B7E861.408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A3D86D43-0006-47BD-ACB7-6B7C2999FF18@sun.science.wayne.edu>

The IDE presos are now posted on Google: http://video.google.com/ 
videoplay?docid=8158216898634409900&q=baypiggies (or just search  
Google video for Baypiggies).
- rob

On Jul 14, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Donna M. Snow wrote:

> Hi Carl,
>
> Video of last nights presentations should be on video.google.com at  
> some
> point. Leslie Hawthorne would know for sure when it'll go live.. I  
> will
> post it to baypiggies.net as well..
>
> Donna M. Snow
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*  Dr. Robert S. Stephenson
*  E-learning Architect
*  rstephe at alumni.princeton.edu
*  (415) 341-3784
*  http://sun.science.wayne.edu/~rstephe
*
*  Community Manager
*  Global Education & Learning Community on Java.net
*  http://gelc.org
*
*  Chief Architect and Principal Investigator
*  http://OpenCourse.Org
*  Supporting virtual communities of e-learning developers.
*
*  Founder
*  The Harvey Project
*  Open Course Physiology on the Web
*  http://HarveyProject.org
*
*  Was I helpful?  Let others know:
*  http://rate.affero.net/rstephe
*
*  gpg key fingerprint:
*  4255 FB43 17C8 2B80 8074  7DB6 7DD7 939B F3F6 CB92
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




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From nnorwitz at gmail.com  Wed Jul 19 23:57:48 2006
From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 14:57:48 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Last nights presentations
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70607141341y490dd293n77559b8d07308687@mail.google.com>
References: <44B7D4EB.3080508@mvista.com> <44B7E861.408@gmail.com>
	<4869cee70607141341y490dd293n77559b8d07308687@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <ee2a432c0607191457y4b98dd63ud4e63a68fa96c71d@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the video from the 7/13 meeting.

  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8158216898634409900

n
--
On 7/14/06, Leslie Hawthorn <lhawthorn at google.com> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I'll ping the list when we get the videos up on video.google.com.
>
> Cheers,
> LH
>
> On 7/14/06, Donna M. Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Carl,
> >
> > Video of last nights presentations should be on video.google.com at some
> > point. Leslie Hawthorne would know for sure when it'll go live.. I will
> > post it to baypiggies.net as well..
> >
> > Donna M. Snow
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>
> --
> Leslie Hawthorn
> Open Source Program Coordinator
> Google Inc.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 20 00:24:29 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:24:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Volunteer wanted for book review: New Book: Python in
	a Nutshell, Second Edition
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0607191524i69158399h6e60e216d85626ee@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Everyone,

If anyone would like to review this book, please email me privately.
(you can keep the book after the review is finished)

[image: O'Reilly - New from the store]
 [image: Python in a
Nutshell]<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pythonian2/?CMP=EMC-4TE388794403&ATT=pythonian2>
Python
in a Nutshell<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pythonian2/?CMP=EMC-6KL145039286&ATT=pythonian2>
By Alex Martelli <http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/catalog/view/au/918>
Second Edition: July 2006
ISBN: 0-596-10046-9
Pages: 712

*Price:* $39.99 USD, $51.99 CAD, ?28.50 GBP
*Buy two books, get the third FREE!* Use discount code "OPC10"
*This book qualifies for FREE SHIPPING.* See
details<http://www.oreilly.com/news/freeshipping_0703.html>.

[image: Learn More]<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pythonian2/?CMP=EMC-R2Z228499027&ATT=pythonian2>

Book Description
*Python in a Nutshell* provides a solid, no-nonsense quick reference to
information that programmers rely on the most. This book will immediately
earn its place in any Python programmer's library.
 [image: O'Reilly - New from the store]
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From brianomorchoe at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jul 20 23:10:22 2006
From: brianomorchoe at yahoo.co.uk (Brain Murphy)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 22:10:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <mailman.45.1153389611.23420.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <20060720211022.79425.qmail@web25706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

What is the easiest way to make a new program?
  for example, if I wanted to make a program that,  made html from a document,
  would it be easy to make an outline like,
  I want it to make an html document:
        it needs the html tags,
        blah blah blah,
  then just provide it with the information like fill in the blanks, or would it be easier to just type away,
  go over, retype, ect.
  Brian
  

baypiggies-request at python.org wrote:
  Send Baypiggies mailing list submissions to
baypiggies at python.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
baypiggies-request at python.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
baypiggies-owner at python.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Baypiggies digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: Python-based wiki? (Chris Clark)
2. Re: Last presentations (Robert Stephenson)
3. Re: Last nights presentations (Neal Norwitz)
4. Volunteer wanted for book review: New Book: Python in a
Nutshell, Second Edition (Tony Cappellini)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:27:41 -0700
From: Chris Clark 
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Python-based wiki?
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID: <44BE5D7D.7010904 at ingres.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Another recommendation for MoinMoin from me. If you just want to test 
drive it with out any hassle, just download the 
http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/DesktopEdition version. After extraction 
it runs in place with a built in web server (I've even run the personal 
edition from a USB drive) with zero setup. If you need to more 
scalability you can go with a proper web server later.

There are some great plug-ins/extensions and if you need to write one 
the plug-in architecture is easy to follow, e.g. check out 
http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MacroMarket/EventCalendar

Chris



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:44:01 -0700
From: Robert Stephenson 
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Last presentations
To: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The IDE presos are now posted on Google: http://video.google.com/ 
videoplay?docid=8158216898634409900&q=baypiggies (or just search 
Google video for Baypiggies).
- rob

On Jul 14, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Donna M. Snow wrote:

> Hi Carl,
>
> Video of last nights presentations should be on video.google.com at 
> some
> point. Leslie Hawthorne would know for sure when it'll go live.. I 
> will
> post it to baypiggies.net as well..
>
> Donna M. Snow
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Dr. Robert S. Stephenson
* E-learning Architect
* rstephe at alumni.princeton.edu
* (415) 341-3784
* http://sun.science.wayne.edu/~rstephe
*
* Community Manager
* Global Education & Learning Community on Java.net
* http://gelc.org
*
* Chief Architect and Principal Investigator
* http://OpenCourse.Org
* Supporting virtual communities of e-learning developers.
*
* Founder
* The Harvey Project
* Open Course Physiology on the Web
* http://HarveyProject.org
*
* Was I helpful? Let others know:
* http://rate.affero.net/rstephe
*
* gpg key fingerprint:
* 4255 FB43 17C8 2B80 8074 7DB6 7DD7 939B F3F6 CB92
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 14:57:48 -0700
From: "Neal Norwitz" 
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Last nights presentations
To: "Leslie Hawthorn" 
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Here's the video from the 7/13 meeting.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8158216898634409900

n
--
On 7/14/06, Leslie Hawthorn wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I'll ping the list when we get the videos up on video.google.com.
>
> Cheers,
> LH
>
> On 7/14/06, Donna M. Snow wrote:
> > Hi Carl,
> >
> > Video of last nights presentations should be on video.google.com at some
> > point. Leslie Hawthorne would know for sure when it'll go live.. I will
> > post it to baypiggies.net as well..
> >
> > Donna M. Snow
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>
> --
> Leslie Hawthorn
> Open Source Program Coordinator
> Google Inc.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:24:29 -0700
From: "Tony Cappellini" 
Subject: [Baypiggies] Volunteer wanted for book review: New Book:
Python in a Nutshell, Second Edition
To: Python 
Message-ID:
<8249c4ac0607191524i69158399h6e60e216d85626ee at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Everyone,

If anyone would like to review this book, please email me privately.
(you can keep the book after the review is finished)

[image: O'Reilly - New from the store]
[image: Python in a
Nutshell]
Python
in a Nutshell
By Alex Martelli 
Second Edition: July 2006
ISBN: 0-596-10046-9
Pages: 712

*Price:* $39.99 USD, $51.99 CAD, ?28.50 GBP
*Buy two books, get the third FREE!* Use discount code "OPC10"
*This book qualifies for FREE SHIPPING.* See
details.

[image: Learn More]

Book Description
*Python in a Nutshell* provides a solid, no-nonsense quick reference to
information that programmers rely on the most. This book will immediately
earn its place in any Python programmer's library.
[image: O'Reilly - New from the store]
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------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


End of Baypiggies Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
*****************************************


 		
---------------------------------
 All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine
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From ken at seehart.com  Fri Jul 21 02:25:03 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:25:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <20060720211022.79425.qmail@web25706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060720211022.79425.qmail@web25706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44C01EDF.6030607@seehart.com>

Hi Brian,

First read this tutorial: 
http://www.honors.montana.edu/~jjc/easytut/easytut/ 
<http://www.honors.montana.edu/%7Ejjc/easytut/easytut/>

Also lots of really good links for beginners here: 
http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide

I recommend this book: "Learning Python" by Mark Lutz and David Ascher
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lpython/

Happy hacking!
- Ken


Brain Murphy wrote:
> What is the easiest way to make a new program?
> for example, if I wanted to make a program that,  made html from a 
> document,
> would it be easy to make an outline like,
> I want it to make an html document:
>       it needs the html tags,
>       blah blah blah,
> then just provide it with the information like fill in the blanks, or 
> would it be easier to just type away,
> go over, retype, ect.
> Brian
>
>
> */baypiggies-request at python.org/* wrote:
>
>     Send Baypiggies mailing list submissions to
>     baypiggies at python.org
>
>     To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>     or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     baypiggies-request at python.org
>
>     You can reach the person managing the list at
>     baypiggies-owner at python.org
>
>     When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>     than "Re: Contents of Baypiggies digest..."
>
>
>     Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re: Python-based wiki? (Chris Clark)
>     2. Re: Last presentations (Robert Stephenson)
>     3. Re: Last nights presentations (Neal Norwitz)
>     4. Volunteer wanted for book review: New Book: Python in a
>     Nutshell, Second Edition (Tony Cappellini)
>
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Message: 1
>     Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:27:41 -0700
>     From: Chris Clark
>     Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Python-based wiki?
>     Cc: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID: <44BE5D7D.7010904 at ingres.com>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>     Another recommendation for MoinMoin from me. If you just want to test
>     drive it with out any hassle, just download the
>     http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/DesktopEdition version. After
>     extraction
>     it runs in place with a built in web server (I've even run the
>     personal
>     edition from a USB drive) with zero setup. If you need to more
>     scalability you can go with a proper web server later.
>
>     There are some great plug-ins/extensions and if you need to write one
>     the plug-in architecture is easy to follow, e.g. check out
>     http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MacroMarket/EventCalendar
>
>     Chris
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 2
>     Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:44:01 -0700
>     From: Robert Stephenson
>     Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Last presentations
>     To: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID:
>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>     The IDE presos are now posted on Google: http://video.google.com/
>     videoplay?docid=8158216898634409900&q=baypiggies (or just search
>     Google video for Baypiggies).
>     - rob
>
>     On Jul 14, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Donna M. Snow wrote:
>
>     > Hi Carl,
>     >
>     > Video of last nights presentations should be on video.google.com at
>     > some
>     > point. Leslie Hawthorne would know for sure when it'll go live.. I
>     > will
>     > post it to baypiggies.net as well..
>     >
>     > Donna M. Snow
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Baypiggies mailing list
>     > Baypiggies at python.org
>     > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>     >
>
>
>     * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>     * Dr. Robert S. Stephenson
>     * E-learning Architect
>     * rstephe at alumni.princeton.edu
>     * (415) 341-3784
>     * http://sun.science.wayne.edu/~rstephe
>     *
>     * Community Manager
>     * Global Education & Learning Community on Java.net
>     * http://gelc.org
>     *
>     * Chief Architect and Principal Investigator
>     * http://OpenCourse.Org
>     * Supporting virtual communities of e-learning developers.
>     *
>     * Founder
>     * The Harvey Project
>     * Open Course Physiology on the Web
>     * http://HarveyProject.org
>     *
>     * Was I helpful? Let others know:
>     * http://rate.affero.net/rstephe
>     *
>     * gpg key fingerprint:
>     * 4255 FB43 17C8 2B80 8074 7DB6 7DD7 939B F3F6 CB92
>     * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
>
>     -------------- next part --------------
>     An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>     URL:
>     http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060719/77206038/attachment-0001.html
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 3
>     Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 14:57:48 -0700
>     From: "Neal Norwitz"
>     Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Last nights presentations
>     To: "Leslie Hawthorn"
>     Cc: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID:
>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>     Here's the video from the 7/13 meeting.
>
>     http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8158216898634409900
>
>     n
>     --
>     On 7/14/06, Leslie Hawthorn wrote:
>     > Hi folks,
>     >
>     > I'll ping the list when we get the videos up on video.google.com.
>     >
>     > Cheers,
>     > LH
>     >
>     > On 7/14/06, Donna M. Snow wrote:
>     > > Hi Carl,
>     > >
>     > > Video of last nights presentations should be on
>     video.google.com at some
>     > > point. Leslie Hawthorne would know for sure when it'll go
>     live.. I will
>     > > post it to baypiggies.net as well..
>     > >
>     > > Donna M. Snow
>     > > _______________________________________________
>     > > Baypiggies mailing list
>     > > Baypiggies at python.org
>     > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>     > >
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > Leslie Hawthorn
>     > Open Source Program Coordinator
>     > Google Inc.
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Baypiggies mailing list
>     > Baypiggies at python.org
>     > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>     >
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 4
>     Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:24:29 -0700
>     From: "Tony Cappellini"
>     Subject: [Baypiggies] Volunteer wanted for book review: New Book:
>     Python in a Nutshell, Second Edition
>     To: Python
>     Message-ID:
>     <8249c4ac0607191524i69158399h6e60e216d85626ee at mail.gmail.com>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>     Hello Everyone,
>
>     If anyone would like to review this book, please email me privately.
>     (you can keep the book after the review is finished)
>
>     [image: O'Reilly - New from the store]
>     [image: Python in a
>     Nutshell]
>     Python
>     in a Nutshell
>     By Alex Martelli
>     Second Edition: July 2006
>     ISBN: 0-596-10046-9
>     Pages: 712
>
>     *Price:* $39.99 USD, $51.99 CAD, ?28.50 GBP
>     *Buy two books, get the third FREE!* Use discount code "OPC10"
>     *This book qualifies for FREE SHIPPING.* See
>     details.
>
>     [image: Learn More]
>
>     Book Description
>     *Python in a Nutshell* provides a solid, no-nonsense quick
>     reference to
>     information that programmers rely on the most. This book will
>     immediately
>     earn its place in any Python programmer's library.
>     [image: O'Reilly - New from the store]
>     -------------- next part --------------
>     An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>     URL:
>     http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060719/7294acd8/attachment.htm
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Baypiggies mailing list
>     Baypiggies at python.org
>     http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>     End of Baypiggies Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
>     *****************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> All new Yahoo! Mail 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/nowyoucan/pc_mag/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40565/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html> 
> "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - 
> PC Magazine
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>   

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From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Jul 21 18:35:07 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 09:35:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re:  Next demo night
Message-ID: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>

----- On Friday, July 14, 2006 mech422 at gmail.com wrote:

> On 7/14/06, Marilyn Davis  wrote:
>>
>> Please remind me.  Our volunteers are:
> ...
>> PyDev
> 
> I can do PyDev at a Goggle meeting.  Although, I'd be surprised if we
> didn't have some eclipse plug-in developers in the group.... They'd
> probably be much more thorough.
> 
> Steve

Thank you Steve.


----- On Saturday, July 15, 2006 ken at seehart.com wrote:

> I can do Komodo.  I can't commit to Ironport (may be possible though), but if
> it's at Google I will commit to doing it.
> 
> - Ken Seehart

Thank you Ken.

> 
> 
> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> 
>   On 7/14/06, Marilyn Davis  wrote:
> 
> 
>     ----- On Friday, July 14, 2006 wescpy at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>         Ok, when are we going to see the demo for SPE and PyDev? ;)
> 
> 
>       so those along with PythonWin and Komodo are on the list for the next
> IDE talk.  marilyn can update her running list.  :-)  i think we can
> only afford to do 4 at a meeting anyway.  i felt we were already
> crunched for time last nite.
> 
> 
>     Please remind me.  Our volunteers are:

So, so far we have:
 
 PythonWin  -- Tony C.
 Komodo -- Ken Seehart
 SPE
 PyDev -- Steve Hindle 

Both Ken and Steve have requested that it be at Google.

If someone has a different IDE to show us, that would be good too.

We only need one more to get on the schedule.

Marilyn
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, there are some existing comparisons:
> 
> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
> 
> Nonetheless, I'm still in favor of having people talk about their favorite IDEs.
> 
> -jj
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies









From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Jul 21 18:55:12 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 09:55:12 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re:  Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>


> > I can do PyDev at a Goggle meeting.
> > I can't commit to Ironport (may be possible though), but if
> > it's at Google I will commit to doing it.

At this point, I think our Google calendar is full:

         Sep: Plone (Donna Snow)
        Nov: Air Traffic (Russ Paielli -- waiting for me)

At IronPort, we have

         Aug: 1/2 Twisted.Web (David Reid)
              1/2 TBD (in discussion with David)
        Oct: open
         Dec: open

So far, speakers generally seem to prefer Google.  I saw the video of the 
meeting last night.  If we can have video at all our Google meetings, we 
may want to rebalance our schedule to have more/all meetings at 
Google.  Video broadcasts are definitely a way to serve the  entire bay 
area as well as the Python community world-wide.

Unless we re-balance, the earliest Google meeting for IDE is in Jan.

Dennis

----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jul 21 22:46:09 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 13:46:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/21/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>
> > > I can do PyDev at a Goggle meeting.
> > > I can't commit to Ironport (may be possible though), but if
> > > it's at Google I will commit to doing it.
>
> At this point, I think our Google calendar is full:
>
>          Sep: Plone (Donna Snow)
>         Nov: Air Traffic (Russ Paielli -- waiting for me)
>
> At IronPort, we have
>
>          Aug: 1/2 Twisted.Web (David Reid)
>               1/2 TBD (in discussion with David)
>         Oct: open
>          Dec: open
>
> So far, speakers generally seem to prefer Google.  I saw the video of the
> meeting last night.  If we can have video at all our Google meetings, we
> may want to rebalance our schedule to have more/all meetings at
> Google.  Video broadcasts are definitely a way to serve the  entire bay
> area as well as the Python community world-wide.
>
> Unless we re-balance, the earliest Google meeting for IDE is in Jan.

I just wish we all lived as close to Google as you do, Dennis ;)

-jj

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jul 21 23:18:56 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:18:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607211418q5569fed2n40d074b0a49ae70b@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/21/06, Krishna Srinivasan <krishna2 at krishna2.com> wrote:
>
>
> Dennis spoke :
> >> So far, speakers generally seem to prefer Google.  I saw the video of the
> >> meeting last night.  If we can have video at all our Google meetings, we
> >> may want to rebalance our schedule to have more/all meetings at
> >> Google.  Video broadcasts are definitely a way to serve the  entire bay
> >> area as well as the Python community world-wide.
> >>
> >> Unless we re-balance, the earliest Google meeting for IDE is in Jan.
>
> JJ  spoke :
> > I just wish we all lived as close to Google as you do, Dennis ;)
>
>
> Maybe it is time to rethink this.
>
> Long back when Danny was about to leave Stanford,
> I volunteered on behalf of IronPort for hosting
> Baypiggies there. Then Wesley and JJ joined in
> (and also helped convince the official powers
> at IronPort). At the same time, Alex who had joined
> Google pitched in for co-hosting.
>
> A year back, I quit IronPort. Wesley left
> IronPort by November. So now, it is just JJ at
> IronPort who is managing everything.
>
> So JJ, maybe it is time, you reconsider the
> whole thing.
>
> Just my 2c,

I am quite happy to relinquish responsibility, especially if it's not
benefiting anyone.  However, I was under the assumption that there
were at least a few people who preferred IronPort.  I'm happy to let
go if that's not the case.

I remember the results of the survey, but it seems that different
people interpreted it differently.  Can we setup a poll that simply
asks, "Should we drop IronPort and host all meetings at Google?  Yes
or No"?

Happy Hacking!
-jj

From krishna2 at krishna2.com  Fri Jul 21 23:12:04 2006
From: krishna2 at krishna2.com (Krishna Srinivasan)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:12:04 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>



Dennis spoke :
>> So far, speakers generally seem to prefer Google.  I saw the video of the
>> meeting last night.  If we can have video at all our Google meetings, we
>> may want to rebalance our schedule to have more/all meetings at
>> Google.  Video broadcasts are definitely a way to serve the  entire bay
>> area as well as the Python community world-wide.
>>
>> Unless we re-balance, the earliest Google meeting for IDE is in Jan.

JJ  spoke :
> I just wish we all lived as close to Google as you do, Dennis ;)


Maybe it is time to rethink this.

Long back when Danny was about to leave Stanford,
I volunteered on behalf of IronPort for hosting
Baypiggies there. Then Wesley and JJ joined in
(and also helped convince the official powers
at IronPort). At the same time, Alex who had joined
Google pitched in for co-hosting.

A year back, I quit IronPort. Wesley left
IronPort by November. So now, it is just JJ at
IronPort who is managing everything.

So JJ, maybe it is time, you reconsider the
whole thing.

Just my 2c,

Cheers,
Krishna.

From aleax at google.com  Fri Jul 21 23:34:27 2006
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:34:27 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607211418q5569fed2n40d074b0a49ae70b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<c41f67b90607211418q5569fed2n40d074b0a49ae70b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0607211434p34b2f06fo8d12286ac099a38b@mail.google.com>

On 7/21/06, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
   ...
> I am quite happy to relinquish responsibility, especially if it's not
> benefiting anyone.  However, I was under the assumption that there
> were at least a few people who preferred IronPort.  I'm happy to let
> go if that's not the case.
>
> I remember the results of the survey, but it seems that different
> people interpreted it differently.  Can we setup a poll that simply
> asks, "Should we drop IronPort and host all meetings at Google?  Yes
> or No"?

Personally, I remember the survey results as indicating a plurality
preferring the Google location, but far from unanimously; in
consequence, if the poll you suggest was setup, I would vote "no" --
it would seem unfair to the minority who DO prefer Ironport.  Maybe we
could rather vary the ratios, say 8/4 meetings at Google vs Ironport,
rather than 6 each, during each year...?


Alex

From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Jul 21 23:49:13 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:49:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607211418q5569fed2n40d074b0a49ae70b@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>

At 02:18 PM 7/21/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>Can we setup a poll that simply
>asks, "Should we drop IronPort and host all meetings at Google?  Yes
>or No"?


We need to establish that Google indeed wants to host us 12X or at least 
more than 6X/year.  Is there a room large enough for us on 2nd Thursday?

A critical new element here is the initiation of video for our 
meetings.  Video recording makes living near/far much less relevant.  Video 
allows us to serve a larger community.  We have an opportunity here but not 
enough info to decide.  Will Google continue video recording future 
meetings?  Hosting us is not entirely cost free for them and IMO, they have 
a lot to contribute to the discussion.

The last poll was flawed in many ways.  It weighted equally people who have 
not shown up for any recent meetings with people who do.  The survey was 
not cognoscent of where we actually meet.  We have the results of "votes" 
from people who do show up: attendance at Google is approximately 2:1 over 
Ironport.

The question is also where can we best put on high quality 
programs.  Generally, speakers are far more partial to Google than Ironport 
as are the attendee counts.  Another poll does not change that.

No, let's not set up "another" poll.  Yes, let's pursue whether Google will 
host our meetings.

Regards, Dennis


----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Sat Jul 22 00:05:08 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 15:05:08 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0607211434p34b2f06fo8d12286ac099a38b@mail.google.com>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>	<c41f67b90607211418q5569fed2n40d074b0a49ae70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<55dc209b0607211434p34b2f06fo8d12286ac099a38b@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <44C14F94.9070106@gmail.com>

Alex said>>
Personally, I remember the survey results as indicating a plurality
preferring the Google location, but far from unanimously; in
consequence, if the poll you suggest was setup, I would vote "no" --
it would seem unfair to the minority who DO prefer Ironport.  Maybe we
could rather vary the ratios, say 8/4 meetings at Google vs Ironport,
rather than 6 each, during each year...?>>

+1 on that idea.. I don't think it's fair to completely eliminate Ironport.

I think with the new Plone site (which allows membership and we'll be able to build more of a community around the site itself AND the awesome videos that are being produced at the meetings) that we can still reach those that are farther away.

I also think that we should offer those who do live closer to Ironport a few times a year to participate in Dennis's Mapping and Random Access.. so an 8/4 solution seems like a good way to do that.. jmho

Donna M. Snow


From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Jul 22 00:09:24 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 15:09:24 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]  Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0607211434p34b2f06fo8d12286ac099a38b@mail.google.c
 om>
References: <c41f67b90607211418q5569fed2n40d074b0a49ae70b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<c41f67b90607211418q5569fed2n40d074b0a49ae70b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060721145204.00c00e58@localhost>

At 02:34 PM 7/21/2006, Alex Martelli wrote:

>Personally, I remember the survey results as indicating a plurality
>preferring the Google location, but far from unanimously; in
>consequence,

The poll never came out and asked about Google/IronPort.  It defined the 
South/North Bay separation as the Palo Alto/Mountain view border.  Maybe 
the poll has some abstract value but requires layering on assumptions to 
understand its relevance to our present locations.

Further, the poll votes exceed the total of those actually attending either 
site combined.  I conclude some of those voting would not show up at either 
location.  Posting of video on a regular basis broadens our reach.

 > Maybe we could rather vary the ratios, say 8/4 meetings at
 > Google vs Ironport, rather than 6 each, during each year...?

Makes sense.  This is an option when I talked earlier today about 
"rebalancing".
----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 22 00:37:01 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 15:37:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]  Geographical location [was: Next demo night]
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060721145204.00c00e58@localhost>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F230BDA3A7E57E78FF963BBA0660@phx.gbl>

>From: Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com>
>At 02:34 PM 7/21/2006, Alex Martelli wrote:
>
> >Personally, I remember the survey results as indicating a plurality
> >preferring the Google location, but far from unanimously; in
> >consequence,
>
>The poll never came out and asked about Google/IronPort.  It defined the
>South/North Bay separation as the Palo Alto/Mountain view border.  Maybe
>the poll has some abstract value but requires layering on assumptions to
>understand its relevance to our present locations.

I will revise and post the survey by 7/31. (Apologies about the extreme
delay due to several circumstances outside my control.)
The video would have been available immediately, noone told me I was not 
going to be videoed.

I specifically withheld releasing it because of this question: I need to 
show the results
to iluminate rather than divide this ongoing discussion about location.
Such that we might reach agreement.

>Further, the poll votes exceed the total of those actually attending either
>site combined.  I conclude some of those voting would not show up at either
>location.  Posting of video on a regular basis broadens our reach.

I will include several analyses, one weighted by number of meetings that 
people attend.
The case can be made that that the weighted one is undemocratic since it 
will skew towards South Bay and Peninsula members, simply because that is 
where meetings are held.
But I will put the data up and we can discuss what works best.
Some people can never attend for legitimate reasons e.g. they live in 
Richmond/Berkeley and only take public transport. Whether their preferences 
should be taken with equal weight is a major source of disagreement.
With benefit of hindsight I might have divided up categories between people 
who live locally but have no interest in attending, and people who cannot 
attend but really want to.

So, results by 7/31.

Regards,
Stephen



From mech422 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 22 00:46:53 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 15:46:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Geographical location [was: Next demo night]
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F230BDA3A7E57E78FF963BBA0660@phx.gbl>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060721145204.00c00e58@localhost>
	<BAY103-F230BDA3A7E57E78FF963BBA0660@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607211546m51b91a94vb203f3ef940f41a5@mail.gmail.com>

Since this is all for fun - I can't say that I see this as an 'either
or' kind of thing...
If Ironport is gracious enough to host us, and there are people that
want to attend...
GREAT

However, that doesn't mean we can't ask Google about having more
meetings there either...  Perhaps have a 'new' google meeting a week
before/after the Ironport meeting?

As long as we have enough attendees to make it 'worthwhile' for our
hosts to go thru the trouble of setting up for us, more meetings just
mean more chances for people to get together.  I don't think that we
should really over analyze this.

Actually, I'd be more interested in figuring out how to video tape the
IronPort meetings so I can see what I've been missing :-)


Steve

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Sat Jul 22 00:53:06 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 15:53:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] OT: impromptu get together
Message-ID: <44C15AD2.5060602@gmail.com>

Steve and I are heading over to the Starbucks in Westgate..will probably 
be there til early evening (8 or 9).. anyone looking to get out of the 
house for a bit is welcome to join us.

(my house is like an oven right now.. so the air conditioning at 
Starbucks will be a welcome reprieve)

Westgate Shopping Center
1600 Saratoga Avenue
Suite 201
San Jose, California 95129
(408) 374-4295

Link to google map:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1600+Saratoga+Avenue,+San+Jose&ie=UTF8&ll=37.294096,-121.990042&spn=0.016149,0.042572&om=1

Donna M. Snow

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 22 01:27:25 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 16:27:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: CareerBuilder.com: Immediate Opening for a PYTHON
	Developer
In-Reply-To: <REBELSM3c781a8118a41446fadc71a8e8e2535d3@REBELSM3>
References: <REBELSM3c781a8118a41446fadc71a8e8e2535d3@REBELSM3>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0607211627m5867fa31hee21f66b71c0d598@mail.gmail.com>

Please respond to the meera at cytechs.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sundar Seth <CandidateEmail at site.careerbuilder.com>
Date: Jul 21, 2006 4:12 PM
Subject: CareerBuilder.com: Immediate Opening for a PYTHON Developer


[image: CareerBuilder.com] <http://www.careerbuilder.com>
[image: Message from Job Poster]       *Immediate Opening for a PYTHON
Developer*    Dear Candidate,

I came across your resume in the job board and would like to know if you
would be interested in this opportunity.

We have an immediate need for a "Python Developer" with our client in
Monterey, CA and the client of us is looking for a person with 3 years of
experience in Python.

This is a very urgent position. Please reply back to me with your updated
resume along with your contact details at the earliest.

Position: Python Developer
Location: Monterey, CA
Duration: 1+ year
Resources: 2 Positions open
Start Date: ASAP

Thank you,
Meera Shankar
(O): (302) 999-7172 x 203
(C): (302) 740-1347
Email: meera at cytechs.com

   If you have questions or comments for CareerBuilder.com, please use
our feedback
form <http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Help/Feedback.asp>.  This email
was sent from Account ID A8E6GZ6667C7GHTY63Q and by this logged in User
U8E4W96HDL1FGJV8GM4
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From lhawthorn at google.com  Sat Jul 22 05:27:21 2006
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 20:27:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
Message-ID: <4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>

Hi folks,

On 7/21/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>
> At 02:18 PM 7/21/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >Can we setup a poll that simply
> >asks, "Should we drop IronPort and host all meetings at Google?  Yes
> >or No"?
>
>
> We need to establish that Google indeed wants to host us 12X or at least
> more than 6X/year.  Is there a room large enough for us on 2nd Thursday?


I will check into this.

A critical new element here is the initiation of video for our
> meetings.  Video recording makes living near/far much less
> relevant.  Video
> allows us to serve a larger community.  We have an opportunity here but
> not
> enough info to decide.  Will Google continue video recording future
> meetings?  Hosting us is not entirely cost free for them and IMO, they
> have
> a lot to contribute to the discussion.


This is planned for all meetings currently scheduled at Google and I'm sure
I can make arrangements for taping at any other sessions scheduled at our
office.

The last poll was flawed in many ways.  It weighted equally people who have
> not shown up for any recent meetings with people who do.  The survey was
> not cognoscent of where we actually meet.  We have the results of "votes"
> from people who do show up: attendance at Google is approximately 2:1 over
> Ironport.


I will look into confirming room availability and all the other due
diligence required on Monday.  I will ping the list to let you know the
outcome.  While I wouldn't want to take anyone away from a different,
preferred location, Google is always happy to host you.

Best,
LH

-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Coordinator
Google Inc.
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From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 22 07:36:57 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 22:36:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Recording Google videos
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0607212236l1c1fa4abx7ec1d2881f4c39af@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know who recorded the video last week at Google?

Is it possible to get the camera facing the screen straight instead of
being at an angle, as well as getting much closer to the screen, for the
next meeting?
The text on the screen is pretty much impossible to read.


Thanks
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From ken at seehart.com  Sat Jul 22 10:52:32 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 01:52:32 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Recording Google videos
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0607212236l1c1fa4abx7ec1d2881f4c39af@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0607212236l1c1fa4abx7ec1d2881f4c39af@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44C1E750.2040704@seehart.com>

A real fancy approach would be to feed the screen to video capture.
- Ken

Tony Cappellini wrote:
>
> Does anyone know who recorded the video last week at Google?
>
> Is it possible to get the camera facing the screen straight instead 
> of  being at an angle, as well as getting much closer to the screen, 
> for the next meeting?
> The text on the screen is pretty much impossible to read.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>   

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From mech422 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 23 15:59:09 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 06:59:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Recording Google videos
In-Reply-To: <44C1E750.2040704@seehart.com>
References: <8249c4ac0607212236l1c1fa4abx7ec1d2881f4c39af@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C1E750.2040704@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607230659u7af50fecybc4574b3a5605a46@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/22/06, Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com> wrote:
>
>  A real fancy approach would be to feed the screen to video capture.
>  - Ken
>

Or perhaps run a 'screencast' program to capture everything to a file ...
I think there are some that can capture off a VNC connection.

Requires a lil more software setup, but less hardware (no video
capture board, no S-video out, etc.)

Or maybe we could get a 'dongle' like this: http://sewelldirect.com/pc-to-tv.asp
for $40 it will split a vga output to vga + s-video for taping..

Of course, our resident EDA guys could prolly build us a better one at
their first SIG meeting :-P

Happy Weekend Everyone...

Steve

From rdm at cfcl.com  Sun Jul 23 18:40:15 2006
From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 09:40:15 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beer and Scripting SIG (BASS) - reminder
Message-ID: <p0623090cc0e94b752271@[192.168.254.205]>

The Beer & Scripting SIG (http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass) will
take place Wednesday evening, 7/26.  Be there or be elsewhere!

In case you were wondering, the discussions at BASS gatherings
are not, erm, scripted.  Rather, they reflect the interests of
whatever scripters happen to show up that evening.  One recent
gathering focused on databases (especially PostgreSQL); other
gatherings have discussed the vagaries of doing scripting for
a living, which languages folks like (and why), etc.

Sometimes, folks bring in books that they have recently read,
software that they want to show off, etc.  The informal nature
of the gatherings allows this, as long as it doesn't conflict
with important things like ordering and eating food!


Also note that the calendar of Bay Area Scripting Events is
available and open to submissions (all your BASE are belong
to us :-).

  *  webcal://cfcl.com/pub_dav/BA_Scripting_Groups.ics
  *  http://cfcl.com/pub_dav/BA_Scripting_Groups.ics

and that the list of local scripting groups is online at

  SF Bay Area Scripting Groups
  http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass/groups.php

-r
-- 
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 23 19:03:56 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 10:03:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Recording Google videos
In-Reply-To: <9a0545880607230659u7af50fecybc4574b3a5605a46@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0607212236l1c1fa4abx7ec1d2881f4c39af@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C1E750.2040704@seehart.com>
	<9a0545880607230659u7af50fecybc4574b3a5605a46@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0607231003s7473a35dlddfd8213c75b4728@mail.gmail.com>

I think JJ told me about this one....
http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/vnc2swf/<http://www.unixuser.org/%7Eeuske/vnc2swf/>

It's actually a set python scripts, and works fairly well.
The only problem I had was getting the recorded session to record the
presentation at the saem screen resolution isze.


On 7/23/06, steve hindle <mech422 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/22/06, Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com> wrote:
> >
> >  A real fancy approach would be to feed the screen to video capture.
> >  - Ken
> >
>
> Or perhaps run a 'screencast' program to capture everything to a file ...
> I think there are some that can capture off a VNC connection.
>
> Requires a lil more software setup, but less hardware (no video
> capture board, no S-video out, etc.)
>
> Or maybe we could get a 'dongle' like this:
> http://sewelldirect.com/pc-to-tv.asp
> for $40 it will split a vga output to vga + s-video for taping..
>
> Of course, our resident EDA guys could prolly build us a better one at
> their first SIG meeting :-P
>
> Happy Weekend Everyone...
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From nnorwitz at gmail.com  Sun Jul 23 20:40:55 2006
From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 11:40:55 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Recording Google videos
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0607212236l1c1fa4abx7ec1d2881f4c39af@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0607212236l1c1fa4abx7ec1d2881f4c39af@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee2a432c0607231140qea943ffq4a1eafef414216aa@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/21/06, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know who recorded the video last week at Google?

Guilty as charged.

> Is it possible to get the camera facing the screen straight instead of
> being at an angle, as well as getting much closer to the screen, for the
> next meeting?
> The text on the screen is pretty much impossible to read.

Yeah, I wasn't sure whether to remove the speaker and just get the
screen or not.  I guess I know how to do it next time. :-)  I figured
the slides would be available online, so even if they weren't too
readable, they would still be available in source form which would
give most of the content and be much clearer than the video.

Moving the camera location is much harder.  It's position is the
standard position for all talks in Tunis.  It would require putting
the camera where there is no power and pretty much half the room would
not be usable as seating.  That means people would have to pack in
closer and sit farther from the screen.

n

From lhawthorn at google.com  Mon Jul 24 21:08:51 2006
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:08:51 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <4869cee70607241208w6a27e7eekd4c37788f1033cb3@mail.google.com>

Hello everyone,

>
> On 7/21/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>
> > At 02:18 PM 7/21/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> > >Can we setup a poll that simply
> > >asks, "Should we drop IronPort and host all meetings at Google?  Yes
> > >or No"?
> >
> >
> > We need to establish that Google indeed wants to host us 12X or at least
> >
> > more than 6X/year.  Is there a room large enough for us on 2nd Thursday?
>
>
I have made preliminary inquiries and it looks like there will be no problem
for us to provide a room and videotaping every 2nd Thursday until the end of
this year, and I don't forsee any problems with Google hosting these
meetings on the same schedule in the future.

I am temporarily holding the usual room until I hear back that the group
would like to remain with the current setup or move meetings to Google.
Please let me know when you have reached consensus.

Best,
LH


-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Coordinator
Google Inc.
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From DennisR at dair.com  Mon Jul 24 21:36:25 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:36:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Next demo night
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70607241208w6a27e7eekd4c37788f1033cb3@mail.google.c
 om>
References: <4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724121333.00bfaa10@localhost>

At 12:08 PM 7/24/2006, Leslie Hawthorn wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>Please let me know when you have reached consensus.

Thanks, Leslie.

I think we still need to get some basic facts:

         Is video available at IronPort?  Hosting of video?
         What has been the viewership of recorded Google meetings
                 among this mailing list?
                 in total to community-at-large?

It would also be nice to have a generally subscribed-to estimate for recent 
historical attendance at either site.  As a strawman, let me suggest 
60-Google and 30-IronPort.

Regards, Dennis


----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From mac at Wireless.Com  Mon Jul 24 21:37:10 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:37:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] More meetings!  (was Re:  Fw: Re: Next demo night)
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70607241208w6a27e7eekd4c37788f1033cb3@mail.google.com>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<4869cee70607241208w6a27e7eekd4c37788f1033cb3@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0607241231420.1405@S.culver.net>

I _definitely_ vote for a regular monthly Google meeting _and_ a regular monthly Ironport meeting.

There is no "rule" that states that we have to have only 12 meetings per year.

I say, since the people who attend Ironport don't intersect too much with the people who attend Google, having 24 meetings per year in the Bay Area seems appropriate, especially given Python's juggernaut growing popularity and Baypiggies' explosive membership growth.

-Mike



On Mon, 24 Jul 2006, Leslie Hawthorn wrote:

> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:08:51 -0700
> From: Leslie Hawthorn <lhawthorn at google.com>
> To: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Next demo night
> 
> Hello everyone,
>
>> 
>> On 7/21/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > At 02:18 PM 7/21/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>> > >Can we setup a poll that simply
>> > >asks, "Should we drop IronPort and host all meetings at Google?  Yes
>> > >or No"?
>> >
>> >
>> > We need to establish that Google indeed wants to host us 12X or at least
>> >
>> > more than 6X/year.  Is there a room large enough for us on 2nd Thursday?
>> 
>> 
> I have made preliminary inquiries and it looks like there will be no problem
> for us to provide a room and videotaping every 2nd Thursday until the end of
> this year, and I don't forsee any problems with Google hosting these
> meetings on the same schedule in the future.
>
> I am temporarily holding the usual room until I hear back that the group
> would like to remain with the current setup or move meetings to Google.
> Please let me know when you have reached consensus.
>
> Best,
> LH
>
>
> -- 
> Leslie Hawthorn
> Open Source Program Coordinator
> Google Inc.
>

From DennisR at dair.com  Mon Jul 24 22:45:32 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:45:32 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] More meetings!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0607241231420.1405@S.culver.net>
References: <4869cee70607241208w6a27e7eekd4c37788f1033cb3@mail.google.com>
	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<4869cee70607241208w6a27e7eekd4c37788f1033cb3@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724124314.00bf4e90@localhost>

At 12:37 PM 7/24/2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>I _definitely_ vote for a regular monthly Google meeting _and_ a regular 
>monthly Ironport meeting.
>
>There is no "rule" that states that we have to have only 12 meetings per year.

There is an issue here: our ability to put on quality programs at 
IronPort.  Our meeting about 3 weeks from now at IronPort is about 1/2 
booked and there is an inquiry open to fill the rest of the program.

In contrast to our IronPort program, our Google program is booked through 
the end of 2006 and we have an IDE proposal at the halfway point contending 
for Jan. 2007.  I see speakers expressing a preference for Google and 
refusing to speak at IronPort.

If we move to 12 meetings at IronPort and 12 at Google, I suspect 
considerable divergence in the character of the meetings.  I am confident 
we can support a full speaker calendar at Google.  IronPort meetings would 
then be more "event" oriented and "spontaneous" (this is the kind version).

Speaking personally, I have rather low interest in planning or attending 
the kinds of "spontaneous" events we have had in the past.  I regard them 
as "filler" (the less kind but still polite version).  This is not a 
location issue.  It is a program preference issue.  I would feel the same 
way if the locations were reversed and indeed dropped out of attending most 
close-at-home Stanford meetings unless there was an interesting speaker booked.

I am interested and willing to coordinate and plan monthly programs that 
are primarily speaker-driven.  In a 12-12 expansion, we would need a 
volunteer to step forward to coordinate (what I am guessing are largely 
non-speaker meetings at) IronPort.

Doubling the number of meetings might increase the load on our webmaster 
and we should hear from her about mitigating this impact.

If we go to a 12-12 split, one of the venues needs to change meeting 
night.  Perhaps the best plan is one site move to 4th Thursday.  That way, 
there is a BayPiggies meeting every two weeks somewhere.  Room availability 
at both hosts would loom large in implementing this choice.

Regards, Dennis



----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From jdooley at savi.com  Mon Jul 24 22:57:45 2006
From: jdooley at savi.com (John Dooley)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:57:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] More meetings!
Message-ID: <32A06D6CF63ABF4A978590387317D3162A6D54@us01-xchg3.savi.com>

I remember attending classes at a remote location with a push to speak
microphone. With all these great Python programmers available is there
any way that we could hack Iron Port as a remote meeting site to the
main presentation site at Google.

Of course, the poor man's version is to have the video recorded
presentations available to the meeting at IronPort's separately
scheduled meeting (and vice versa). But it is no clear how that is any
better than just pulling the video down yourself.

-----Original Message-----
From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org
[mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Reinhardt
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 1:46 PM
To: baypiggies at python.org
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] More meetings!

At 12:37 PM 7/24/2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>I _definitely_ vote for a regular monthly Google meeting _and_ a
regular 
>monthly Ironport meeting.
>
>There is no "rule" that states that we have to have only 12 meetings
per year.

There is an issue here: our ability to put on quality programs at 
IronPort.  Our meeting about 3 weeks from now at IronPort is about 1/2 
booked and there is an inquiry open to fill the rest of the program.

In contrast to our IronPort program, our Google program is booked
through 
the end of 2006 and we have an IDE proposal at the halfway point
contending 
for Jan. 2007.  I see speakers expressing a preference for Google and 
refusing to speak at IronPort.

If we move to 12 meetings at IronPort and 12 at Google, I suspect 
considerable divergence in the character of the meetings.  I am
confident 
we can support a full speaker calendar at Google.  IronPort meetings
would 
then be more "event" oriented and "spontaneous" (this is the kind
version).

Speaking personally, I have rather low interest in planning or attending

the kinds of "spontaneous" events we have had in the past.  I regard
them 
as "filler" (the less kind but still polite version).  This is not a 
location issue.  It is a program preference issue.  I would feel the
same 
way if the locations were reversed and indeed dropped out of attending
most 
close-at-home Stanford meetings unless there was an interesting speaker
booked.

I am interested and willing to coordinate and plan monthly programs that

are primarily speaker-driven.  In a 12-12 expansion, we would need a 
volunteer to step forward to coordinate (what I am guessing are largely 
non-speaker meetings at) IronPort.

Doubling the number of meetings might increase the load on our webmaster

and we should hear from her about mitigating this impact.

If we go to a 12-12 split, one of the venues needs to change meeting 
night.  Perhaps the best plan is one site move to 4th Thursday.  That
way, 
there is a BayPiggies meeting every two weeks somewhere.  Room
availability 
at both hosts would loom large in implementing this choice.

Regards, Dennis



----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

From DennisR at dair.com  Tue Jul 25 00:57:45 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:57:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] More meetings!
In-Reply-To: <32A06D6CF63ABF4A978590387317D3162A6D54@us01-xchg3.savi.com
 >
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>

At 01:57 PM 7/24/2006, John Dooley wrote:
>I remember attending classes at a remote location with a push to speak
>microphone. With all these great Python programmers available is there
>any way that we could hack Iron Port as a remote meeting site to the
>main presentation site at Google.

I am not optimistic about this being easy to do.  It is an imposition on 
our hosts to ask them to do this.  Navigating the security policy at both 
sites for live outside internet connections with at least one 
internet-visible (not NAT) IP server address could make this painful or a 
non-starter.  A voice connection (not necessarily push-to-talk) should be 
straight-forward.  It is the video feed which is a problem.

>Of course, the poor man's version is to have the video recorded
>presentations available to the meeting at IronPort's separately
>scheduled meeting (and vice versa). But it is no clear how that is any
>better than just pulling the video down yourself.

Right now, we do not have vice versa as an option.  Yeah, pulling delayed 
video down yourself is likely how Google meetings will be attended away 
from Google.

Regards, Dennis
----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From ken at seehart.com  Tue Jul 25 14:09:50 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:09:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>
Message-ID: <44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>

I am writing a linux embedded application that writes to a FLASH disk.  
It needs to reliably recover from a power down at any time.  So I have 
implemented a tandem file writing scheme to ensure that an uncorrupted 
version of the data file exists.  I am using shelve for my pair of 
tandem data files because it is sufficient for my needs.  I use a pair 
of single byte binary files to record the status of the data files.

My question is this: If I write a single byte to a file that contains 
exactly one byte, can I be sure that a power outage during the write 
will not render the file unreadable?

f = open("valid", "w")
f.write('\1');
f.close();
...
f = open("valid", "w")
f.write('\0');
f.close();

In other words, if the file initially contains a 0 or 1, and the above 
code is executed repeatedly, can I be sure that my file will contain a 0 
or 1 if the power is shut off at a random time during execution?

- Ken



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Jul 25 14:55:16 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:55:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>
	<44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <20060725125516.GA15527@panix.com>

On Tue, Jul 25, 2006, Ken Seehart wrote:
> 
> My question is this: If I write a single byte to a file that contains
> exactly one byte, can I be sure that a power outage during the write
> will not render the file unreadable?

No, you cannot be sure.  What I would do is keep the data in two
different directories; that makes it more likely that you'll be able to
recover your data.  Also, what OS are you using?  (Yes, I saw that it was
Linux, not all Linux is alike.)  You may be able to format the flash disk
with a filesystem that allows journaling.

Another point: I would use \x00 and \xFF for the byte.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan

From kenobi at gmail.com  Tue Jul 25 15:56:19 2006
From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 06:56:19 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>
	<44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <f0aa69930607250656h3a01244cy5b74631b0affb4c4@mail.gmail.com>

Is this on top of JFFS2 sitting on top of an MTD-style device?

I believe JFFS2 writes a new copy of the file somewhere, in many cases
the end of the file system, not on top of the previous incarnation.
But I would also like to hear a more authoritative answer.  (I'm also
doing embedded Linux and writing to flash, but building on someone
else's work.)

--Rick Kwan

On 7/25/06, Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com> wrote:
> I am writing a linux embedded application that writes to a FLASH disk.
> It needs to reliably recover from a power down at any time.  So I have
> implemented a tandem file writing scheme to ensure that an uncorrupted
> version of the data file exists.  I am using shelve for my pair of
> tandem data files because it is sufficient for my needs.  I use a pair
> of single byte binary files to record the status of the data files.
>
> My question is this: If I write a single byte to a file that contains
> exactly one byte, can I be sure that a power outage during the write
> will not render the file unreadable?
>
> f = open("valid", "w")
> f.write('\1');
> f.close();
> ...
> f = open("valid", "w")
> f.write('\0');
> f.close();
>
> In other words, if the file initially contains a 0 or 1, and the above
> code is executed repeatedly, can I be sure that my file will contain a 0
> or 1 if the power is shut off at a random time during execution?
>
> - Ken
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From mech422 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 25 17:51:18 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 08:51:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <f0aa69930607250656h3a01244cy5b74631b0affb4c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>
	<44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>
	<f0aa69930607250656h3a01244cy5b74631b0affb4c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607250851m9160e41v1d43722f61ecece@mail.gmail.com>

> On 7/25/06, Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com> wrote:
> >
> > My question is this: If I write a single byte to a file that contains
> > exactly one byte, can I be sure that a power outage during the write
> > will not render the file unreadable?
> >

Given its a binary switch - the file contents are immaterial.
You could simply use the (non-)existance of the file as the status indicator.

Also,  in these situations, its common to write the indicator LAST, after all
updates have completed normally.  So if the power fails, etc - you can
still boot
the original known-good copy.

Steve

From davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com  Tue Jul 25 19:32:11 2006
From: davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com (Monte Davidoff)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:32:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>
	<44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <44C6559B.7090702@alluvialsw.com>

Ken Seehart wrote:
> 
> In other words, if the file initially contains a 0 or 1, and the above 
> code is executed repeatedly, can I be sure that my file will contain a 0 
> or 1 if the power is shut off at a random time during execution?

You need to ensure that the OS file buffers are written to disk -- 
closing the file is not sufficient.  I suggest something along these lines:

1. Write new data file.
2. Invoke /bin/sync to ensure the new data file is written to disk, if 
shelve did not take care of this already.
3. Using Steve Hindle's suggestion, update the status indicator in the 
file system.
4. Invoke /bin/sync again to ensure that the status indicator changes 
are written to disk.

I'm also working on an embedded Linux application that writes to a flash 
drive.  To get journaling, I've used XFS on the flash drive, although I 
have not tried JFFS2.

Monte

From bos at serpentine.com  Tue Jul 25 19:53:21 2006
From: bos at serpentine.com (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:53:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <44C6559B.7090702@alluvialsw.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>
	<44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>  <44C6559B.7090702@alluvialsw.com>
Message-ID: <1153850001.32036.40.camel@sardonyx>

On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 10:32 -0700, Monte Davidoff wrote:

> 1. Write new data file.
> 2. Invoke /bin/sync to ensure the new data file is written to disk, if 
> shelve did not take care of this already.

Just use os.fsync(fp.fileno()).

> I'm also working on an embedded Linux application that writes to a flash 
> drive.  To get journaling, I've used XFS on the flash drive, although I 
> have not tried JFFS2.

This is not a very good idea.  Linux's flash filesystems are designed
specifically to limit the number of write cycles they make to any given
region of memory ("wear leveling"), which disk-oriented filesystems do
not need to worry about.  You'll significantly reduce the usable
lifetimes of your flash devices if you use an inappropriate filesystem.
Also, XFS is enormous, hardly a good fit for a presumably
resource-constrained embedded system.

	<b


From cindy.arthur at efrontier.com  Tue Jul 25 19:36:07 2006
From: cindy.arthur at efrontier.com (Cindy Arthur)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:36:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Job Opportunity
Message-ID: <8458FFF74D27714ABFD6A8F185FC0E6F1F336B@efexch00.corp.efrontier.com>

Hi All,
 
Efficient Frontier (www.efrontier.com) is looking for exceptional
software engineers who have the ability to excel in a fast-paced
environment where action and initiative are required. 

Responsibilities:

 *<outbind://165/PicExportError>        You will work with other
engineers to build a large-scale distributed application using
open-source components that accesses, processes, and updates real-time
data across the Internet. 

 *<outbind://165/PicExportError>        You will develop algorithms,
systems and operations of the technology. 

Requirements:

 *<outbind://165/PicExportError>        Strong command of C/C++, perl,
Python, FreeBSD, and Unix/Linux. 

 *<outbind://165/PicExportError>        BSCS degree or equivalent and 2+
years of experience working through an entire life cycle of a web-based
service from concept, implementation, testing to maintenance. 

 *<outbind://165/PicExportError>        Ability to work closely with
customers, provide technical support in understanding customers'
requirements and translate these requirements into technically viable
end-to-end solutions including implementation details. 

 *<outbind://165/PicExportError>        Experience with databases such
as Oracle, Postgres, Sybase, mySQL, Ingres and/or Informix. 

 *<outbind://165/PicExportError>        Familiarity with application
level network protocols (e.g., HTTP and/or SSL). 

 *<outbind://165/PicExportError>        Excellent communication and
relationship skills along with being a strong team player. 

 *<outbind://165/PicExportError>        Demonstrable analytical
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 *<outbind://165/PicExportError>        Ability to thrive in a
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If interested, please send your resume to: jobs at efrontier.com

 

Efficient Frontier is an equal opportunity employer.

 
Regards,
Cindy Arthur
Efficient Frontier
www.efrontier.com
 
-------------- next part --------------
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From mac at Wireless.Com  Tue Jul 25 20:46:42 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 11:46:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <1153850001.32036.40.camel@sardonyx>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>
	<44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>
	<44C6559B.7090702@alluvialsw.com> <1153850001.32036.40.camel@sardonyx>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0607251135290.1405@S.culver.net>

Bryan is right.

I suggest you glue on a piece of battery-backed (or super-cap-backed) SRAM for your semaphore, or maybe use FRAM:
http://www.fujitsu.com/emea/services/microelectronics/fram/
http://www.ramtron.com/

You definitely don't want to beat on the flash FS too much...

-Mike


On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Bryan O'Sullivan wrote:

> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:53:21 -0700
> From: Bryan O'Sullivan <bos at serpentine.com>
> To: davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com
> Cc: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] File IO question
> 
> On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 10:32 -0700, Monte Davidoff wrote:
>
>> 1. Write new data file.
>> 2. Invoke /bin/sync to ensure the new data file is written to disk, if
>> shelve did not take care of this already.
>
> Just use os.fsync(fp.fileno()).
>
>> I'm also working on an embedded Linux application that writes to a flash
>> drive.  To get journaling, I've used XFS on the flash drive, although I
>> have not tried JFFS2.
>
> This is not a very good idea.  Linux's flash filesystems are designed
> specifically to limit the number of write cycles they make to any given
> region of memory ("wear leveling"), which disk-oriented filesystems do
> not need to worry about.  You'll significantly reduce the usable
> lifetimes of your flash devices if you use an inappropriate filesystem.
> Also, XFS is enormous, hardly a good fit for a presumably
> resource-constrained embedded system.
>
> 	<b

From mech422 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 25 23:25:12 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:25:12 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <1153850001.32036.40.camel@sardonyx>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>
	<44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com> <44C6559B.7090702@alluvialsw.com>
	<1153850001.32036.40.camel@sardonyx>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607251425t7adb65e8w580b3e7384eb498b@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/25/06, Bryan O'Sullivan <bos at serpentine.com> wrote:
>
> This is not a very good idea.  Linux's flash filesystems are designed
> specifically to limit the number of write cycles they make to any given
> region of memory ("wear leveling"), which disk-oriented filesystems do
> not need to worry about.  You'll significantly reduce the usable

>From what an EE told me, USB flash dongles at least, do wear leveling
internally on the key.  Raw flash chips probably require more care
though...  I just used ext2 on the 128 and 256MB keys we used ....

Steve

From prasanna at futuredial.com  Tue Jul 25 23:32:23 2006
From: prasanna at futuredial.com (Prasanna Rajagopal)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:32:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reading file and inserting BLOB in oracle database.
Message-ID: <431F3AA252FCC246A85DE904CB15CB3F3AF398@fdmail.digitchat.int>

Hi,
I am trying to read a file, create a BLOB object and insert that BLOB
object into an Oracle column.  Then retrieve the BLOB from Oracle and
write it to a file again.  I was wondering if I could get any help on
this.  If there is any code snippet, that would be very useful.  
Thanks
-Prasanna
 
  
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From ken at seehart.com  Wed Jul 26 03:54:00 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:54:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <9a0545880607250851m9160e41v1d43722f61ecece@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>	<44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>	<f0aa69930607250656h3a01244cy5b74631b0affb4c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<9a0545880607250851m9160e41v1d43722f61ecece@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44C6CB38.8000703@seehart.com>

steve hindle wrote:
>> On 7/25/06, Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com> wrote:
>>     
>>> My question is this: If I write a single byte to a file that contains
>>> exactly one byte, can I be sure that a power outage during the write
>>> will not render the file unreadable?
>>>
>>>       
>
> Given its a binary switch - the file contents are immaterial.
> You could simply use the (non-)existance of the file as the status indicator.
>   
That was my original plan, but I was worried that it would be easier to 
corrupt a directory by interrupting file creation/deletion than it would 
be to interrupt writing a byte to a file.  I'm not certain about this 
though.
> Also,  in these situations, its common to write the indicator LAST, after all
> updates have completed normally.  So if the power fails, etc - you can
> still boot
> the original known-good copy.
>
> Steve
>   
Yes, that's the basic idea.  The pseudocode is something like this:

set indicator 1 to false
write to file 1
set indicator 1 to true
set indicator 2 to false
write to file 2
set indicator 2 to true

At boot up, the indicators tell me which file is valid, and the 
appropriate file copy is performed.

- Ken



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From ken at seehart.com  Wed Jul 26 04:06:21 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:06:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0607251135290.1405@S.culver.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>	<44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>	<44C6559B.7090702@alluvialsw.com>
	<1153850001.32036.40.camel@sardonyx>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0607251135290.1405@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <44C6CE1D.5030801@seehart.com>

Ouch.  I had not considered that.  I didn't know FLASH was so fragile.

Mike Cheponis wrote:
> Bryan is right.
>
> I suggest you glue on a piece of battery-backed (or super-cap-backed) SRAM for your semaphore, or maybe use FRAM:
> http://www.fujitsu.com/emea/services/microelectronics/fram/
> http://www.ramtron.com/
>
> You definitely don't want to beat on the flash FS too much...
>
> -Mike
>
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Bryan O'Sullivan wrote:
>
>   
>> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:53:21 -0700
>> From: Bryan O'Sullivan <bos at serpentine.com>
>> To: davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com
>> Cc: baypiggies at python.org
>> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] File IO question
>>
>> On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 10:32 -0700, Monte Davidoff wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> 1. Write new data file.
>>> 2. Invoke /bin/sync to ensure the new data file is written to disk, if
>>> shelve did not take care of this already.
>>>       
>> Just use os.fsync(fp.fileno()).
>>
>>     
>>> I'm also working on an embedded Linux application that writes to a flash
>>> drive.  To get journaling, I've used XFS on the flash drive, although I
>>> have not tried JFFS2.
>>>       
>> This is not a very good idea.  Linux's flash filesystems are designed
>> specifically to limit the number of write cycles they make to any given
>> region of memory ("wear leveling"), which disk-oriented filesystems do
>> not need to worry about.  You'll significantly reduce the usable
>> lifetimes of your flash devices if you use an inappropriate filesystem.
>> Also, XFS is enormous, hardly a good fit for a presumably
>> resource-constrained embedded system.
>>
>> 	<b
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>   

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From bibha at adobe.com  Wed Jul 26 12:30:11 2006
From: bibha at adobe.com (Bibha Tripathi)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:00:11 +0530
Subject: [Baypiggies] Control-D to exit
Message-ID: <6EDF3FB32D141949A80915FB09CD7FA79524E7@INDIAMAIL.corp.adobe.com>

Hi,

 

Does CTRL-D not take me out of the Python interpreter anymore? Has
something changed about Python in 2.4.3 on Win32?

Now I have to do ^z and then press enter to come out of the
interpreter...I have Win32 extensions recently installed on my machine -
just so someone looks for a correlation here :-)

 

Thanks,

Bibha

 

 

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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jul 26 14:48:50 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 05:48:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Control-D to exit
In-Reply-To: <6EDF3FB32D141949A80915FB09CD7FA79524E7@INDIAMAIL.corp.adobe.com>
References: <6EDF3FB32D141949A80915FB09CD7FA79524E7@INDIAMAIL.corp.adobe.com>
Message-ID: <20060726124850.GA23677@panix.com>

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Bibha Tripathi wrote:
> 
> Does CTRL-D not take me out of the Python interpreter anymore? Has
> something changed about Python in 2.4.3 on Win32?
> 
> Now I have to do ^z and then press enter to come out of the
> interpreter...I have Win32 extensions recently installed on my machine -
> just so someone looks for a correlation here :-)

ctrl-Z has always been the way to exit on Windows because that's the
historic end-of-file marker for Windows.  Python 2.5 fixes this schism:
quit() and exit() now work.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan

From Chris.Clark at ingres.com  Wed Jul 26 18:46:48 2006
From: Chris.Clark at ingres.com (Chris Clark)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 09:46:48 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Control-D to exit
In-Reply-To: <20060726124850.GA23677@panix.com>
References: <6EDF3FB32D141949A80915FB09CD7FA79524E7@INDIAMAIL.corp.adobe.com>
	<20060726124850.GA23677@panix.com>
Message-ID: <44C79C78.2040808@ingres.com>

Aahz wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Bibha Tripathi wrote:
>   
>> Does CTRL-D not take me out of the Python interpreter anymore? Has
>> something changed about Python in 2.4.3 on Win32?
>>
>> Now I have to do ^z and then press enter to come out of the
>> interpreter...I have Win32 extensions recently installed on my machine -
>> just so someone looks for a correlation here :-)
>>     
>
> ctrl-Z has always been the way to exit on Windows because that's the
> historic end-of-file marker for Windows.  Python 2.5 fixes this schism:
> quit() and exit() now work.
>   

Just another confirmation that ctrl-z was the only "control key 
sequence" you could use to quit using the normal win32 builds. If you 
have used the cygwin package(s) they do use ctrl-d as it tries to 
emulate Unix (and unix terminals) and that may be the source of 
confusion if you remember using ctrl-d on a Windows box.


From bibha at adobe.com  Wed Jul 26 19:16:23 2006
From: bibha at adobe.com (bibha)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 22:46:23 +0530
Subject: [Baypiggies] Control-D to exit
In-Reply-To: <44C79C78.2040808@ingres.com>
Message-ID: <C0EDA13F.70%bibha@adobe.com>

Yep...that's the confusion actually...I have worked on Unix based systems as
far as Python goes and working on Windows seems confusing now :) ...thank
you!

Thanks
Bibha


On 7/26/06 10:16 PM, "Chris Clark" <Chris.Clark at ingres.com> wrote:

> Aahz wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Bibha Tripathi wrote:
>>   
>>> Does CTRL-D not take me out of the Python interpreter anymore? Has
>>> something changed about Python in 2.4.3 on Win32?
>>> 
>>> Now I have to do ^z and then press enter to come out of the
>>> interpreter...I have Win32 extensions recently installed on my machine -
>>> just so someone looks for a correlation here :-)
>>>     
>> 
>> ctrl-Z has always been the way to exit on Windows because that's the
>> historic end-of-file marker for Windows.  Python 2.5 fixes this schism:
>> quit() and exit() now work.
>>   
> 
> Just another confirmation that ctrl-z was the only "control key
> sequence" you could use to quit using the normal win32 builds. If you
> have used the cygwin package(s) they do use ctrl-d as it tries to
> emulate Unix (and unix terminals) and that may be the source of
> confusion if you remember using ctrl-d on a Windows box.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From Chris.Clark at ingres.com  Wed Jul 26 19:25:40 2006
From: Chris.Clark at ingres.com (Chris Clark)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:25:40 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reading file and inserting BLOB in oracle database.
In-Reply-To: <431F3AA252FCC246A85DE904CB15CB3F3AF398@fdmail.digitchat.int>
References: <431F3AA252FCC246A85DE904CB15CB3F3AF398@fdmail.digitchat.int>
Message-ID: <44C7A594.4030004@ingres.com>

Prasanna Rajagopal wrote:
>
> I am trying to read a file, create a BLOB object and insert that BLOB 
> object into an Oracle column.  Then retrieve the BLOB from Oracle and 
> write it to a file again.  I was wondering if I could get any help on 
> this.  If there is any code snippet, that would be very useful. 
>

I don't have any code for Oracle but I do for Ingres ;-)

In theory the code below should be enough to get you going with Oracle, 
and if not (prepare for shameless plug) Ingres is under the GPL so give 
it a download http://www.ingres.com/products/Prod_Download_Portal.html 
(the DBMS and driver are near the bottom of the page). Please don't use 
this as a model of good style, it is is short as possible to demo DBI 
concepts.

# simple lob demo
import ingresdbi, sys

# Trivial command line args, no real checks performed
if len(sys.argv) != 3:
    print("Usage: blob.py dsn file_name")
    sys.exit()
dsn_str = sys.argv[1]
filename = sys.argv[2]
out_filename = filename+"_out"

# lob read
f = open(filename, "r")
blob = f.read()
f.close()

conn = ingresdbi.connect(dsn=dsn_str)
curs = conn.cursor()

#curs.execute("create table myBlob(blobCol long varchar)")
curs.execute("create table myBlob(blobCol long byte)")
curs.execute("insert into myBlob values(?)",(blob,))
curs.execute("select * from myBlob")
all_rows = curs.fetchall()
#print "all_rows", all_rows

# lob write
f = open(out_filename, "w")
f.write(all_rows[0][0])
f.close()
print "created out lob file", out_filename

curs.execute("drop myBlob")
curs.close()
conn.close()


From prasanna at futuredial.com  Wed Jul 26 19:48:30 2006
From: prasanna at futuredial.com (Prasanna Rajagopal)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:48:30 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reading file and inserting BLOB in oracle database.
Message-ID: <431F3AA252FCC246A85DE904CB15CB3F3AF39F@fdmail.digitchat.int>

Hi
Thank you for your reply.  Is there something similar to "ingresdbi" for
Oracle database, in other words, which python oracle driver I should
use?  I tried ADODB for python, but I felt it does not offer much
support for BLOB handling.  I am new to Python, so I might be wrong.  

I tried the following:

file_object = open('C:\insertUpdateSelectBLOB\CoffeeBean.bmp','rb')

data = file_object.read()
 
sql = "insert into blob_test (blobtestid, blob_field) values
(101,empty_blob())"

oraCur = oraConn.Execute(sql)

oraConn.UpdateBlob('BLOB_TEST','BLOB_FIELD', data, 'BLOBTESTID = 101')

This does not work.

-Prasanna

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Clark [mailto:Chris.Clark at ingres.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 10:26 AM
To: Prasanna Rajagopal
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Reading file and inserting BLOB in oracle
database.

Prasanna Rajagopal wrote:
>
> I am trying to read a file, create a BLOB object and insert that BLOB 
> object into an Oracle column.  Then retrieve the BLOB from Oracle and 
> write it to a file again.  I was wondering if I could get any help on 
> this.  If there is any code snippet, that would be very useful. 
>

I don't have any code for Oracle but I do for Ingres ;-)

In theory the code below should be enough to get you going with Oracle, 
and if not (prepare for shameless plug) Ingres is under the GPL so give 
it a download http://www.ingres.com/products/Prod_Download_Portal.html 
(the DBMS and driver are near the bottom of the page). Please don't use 
this as a model of good style, it is is short as possible to demo DBI 
concepts.

# simple lob demo
import ingresdbi, sys

# Trivial command line args, no real checks performed
if len(sys.argv) != 3:
    print("Usage: blob.py dsn file_name")
    sys.exit()
dsn_str = sys.argv[1]
filename = sys.argv[2]
out_filename = filename+"_out"

# lob read
f = open(filename, "r")
blob = f.read()
f.close()

conn = ingresdbi.connect(dsn=dsn_str)
curs = conn.cursor()

#curs.execute("create table myBlob(blobCol long varchar)")
curs.execute("create table myBlob(blobCol long byte)")
curs.execute("insert into myBlob values(?)",(blob,))
curs.execute("select * from myBlob")
all_rows = curs.fetchall()
#print "all_rows", all_rows

# lob write
f = open(out_filename, "w")
f.write(all_rows[0][0])
f.close()
print "created out lob file", out_filename

curs.execute("drop myBlob")
curs.close()
conn.close()


From asheesh at asheesh.org  Wed Jul 26 19:53:50 2006
From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reading file and inserting BLOB in oracle database.
In-Reply-To: <431F3AA252FCC246A85DE904CB15CB3F3AF39F@fdmail.digitchat.int>
References: <431F3AA252FCC246A85DE904CB15CB3F3AF39F@fdmail.digitchat.int>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0607261051090.15467@alchemy>

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, Prasanna Rajagopal wrote:

> Thank you for your reply.  Is there something similar to "ingresdbi" for 
> Oracle database, in other words, which python oracle driver I should 
> use?

I have no Oracle experience whatsoever, but I love SQLAlchemy and would 
like to take this chance to note that it supports Oracle: 
http://www.sqlalchemy.org/

SQLObject can be good, too, but I find that SQLAlchemy has more database 
support.

http://www.sqlalchemy.org/docs/dbengine.myt covers SQLAlchemy's DB 
support.  http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/04/introducing-sqlsoup.html is a 
demo of drop-dead-easy DB usage from Python with a SQLAlchemy wrapper 
known as SqlSoup.

-- Asheesh.

-- 
FORTUNE PROVIDES QUESTIONS FOR THE GREAT ANSWERS: #31
A:	Chicken Teriyaki.
Q:	What is the name of the world's oldest kamikaze pilot?

From Chris.Clark at ingres.com  Wed Jul 26 20:03:26 2006
From: Chris.Clark at ingres.com (Chris Clark)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 11:03:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reading file and inserting BLOB in oracle database.
In-Reply-To: <431F3AA252FCC246A85DE904CB15CB3F3AF39F@fdmail.digitchat.int>
References: <431F3AA252FCC246A85DE904CB15CB3F3AF39F@fdmail.digitchat.int>
Message-ID: <44C7AE6E.2020407@ingres.com>

Prasanna Rajagopal wrote:
> Hi
> Thank you for your reply.  Is there something similar to "ingresdbi" for
> Oracle database, in other words, which python oracle driver I should
> use?

I have no idea, I've seen at least one Oracle specific driver in my 
travels but don't recall the name. I suspect google is your best friend 
for that.

There are a couple of ODBC based ones, one with a dual license (mxODBC) 
and there is a free (MIT license) one called PyODBC 
http://pyodbc.sourceforge.net/, I know they have lob support as we've 
had some discussions with them.

One slightly odd option would be to use the ingresdbi driver against 
Oracle :-S ingresdbi is based on ODBC (written in C), it probably won't 
work out of the box but it wouldn't take much work to get it to work 
with multiple back ends (we accept code contributions :-)).

>   I tried ADODB for python, but I felt it does not offer much
> support for BLOB handling.  I am new to Python, so I might be wrong.  
>   

I've never used it (I've heard good things) and I don't know about the 
lob support it has.

> I tried the following:
> ..... snip'ed 
> sql = "insert into blob_test (blobtestid, blob_field) values
> (101,empty_blob())"
>
> oraCur = oraConn.Execute(sql)
>
> oraConn.UpdateBlob('BLOB_TEST','BLOB_FIELD', data, 'BLOBTESTID = 101')
>
> This does not work.
>   
This isn't following the DBI spec (it is an extension) so whilst can 
guess what it is doing I don't _know_ what this is doing, the method 
name certainly does imply there is lob support. You may want to try 
emailing the author of the driver you are using, or even google for the 
method name.

Good luck,

Chris


From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Jul 26 20:45:56 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 11:45:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reading file and inserting BLOB in oracle database.
In-Reply-To: <44C7AE6E.2020407@ingres.com>
References: <431F3AA252FCC246A85DE904CB15CB3F3AF39F@fdmail.digitchat.int>
	<44C7AE6E.2020407@ingres.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607261145m7638adf4kea96de4c646b45a7@mail.gmail.com>

I've used mxODBC with good results.

Prasanna, I assume you've already checked out
<http://www.python.org/topics/database/>.

Best Regards,
-jj

On 7/26/06, Chris Clark <Chris.Clark at ingres.com> wrote:
> Prasanna Rajagopal wrote:
> > Hi
> > Thank you for your reply.  Is there something similar to "ingresdbi" for
> > Oracle database, in other words, which python oracle driver I should
> > use?
>
> I have no idea, I've seen at least one Oracle specific driver in my
> travels but don't recall the name. I suspect google is your best friend
> for that.
>
> There are a couple of ODBC based ones, one with a dual license (mxODBC)
> and there is a free (MIT license) one called PyODBC
> http://pyodbc.sourceforge.net/, I know they have lob support as we've
> had some discussions with them.
>
> One slightly odd option would be to use the ingresdbi driver against
> Oracle :-S ingresdbi is based on ODBC (written in C), it probably won't
> work out of the box but it wouldn't take much work to get it to work
> with multiple back ends (we accept code contributions :-)).
>
> >   I tried ADODB for python, but I felt it does not offer much
> > support for BLOB handling.  I am new to Python, so I might be wrong.
> >
>
> I've never used it (I've heard good things) and I don't know about the
> lob support it has.
>
> > I tried the following:
> > ..... snip'ed
> > sql = "insert into blob_test (blobtestid, blob_field) values
> > (101,empty_blob())"
> >
> > oraCur = oraConn.Execute(sql)
> >
> > oraConn.UpdateBlob('BLOB_TEST','BLOB_FIELD', data, 'BLOBTESTID = 101')
> >
> > This does not work.
> >
> This isn't following the DBI spec (it is an extension) so whilst can
> guess what it is doing I don't _know_ what this is doing, the method
> name certainly does imply there is lob support. You may want to try
> emailing the author of the driver you are using, or even google for the
> method name.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From DennisR at dair.com  Wed Jul 26 20:44:33 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 11:44:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70607241208w6a27e7eekd4c37788f1033cb3@mail.google.c
 om>
References: <4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>

At 12:08 PM 7/24/2006, Leslie Hawthorn wrote:
>I am temporarily holding the usual room until I hear back ...


Folks,

Here are where we have talks lined-up for 2006:

         Aug.  1/2 full    IronPort
         Sep.  filled-1    Google
         Oct.  open        IronPort
         Nov.  filled-2    Google
         Dec.  open        IronPort

I suggest we revise this to

         Aug.  1/2 full    IronPort
         Sep.  filled-1    Google
         Oct.  filled-2    Google
         Nov.  tentative-3 Google
         Dec.  open        TBD (speaker input needed)

This more nearly balances speakers and venues.  Let's get this decided.

Having 2 meetings/month is a possibility.  There is a caveat to my previous 
suggestion of 2nd and 4th Thursday.  There is going to be low attendance in 
4th Thursday meetings in both Nov. and Dec.

IMO, what is more doable in the short term is 1 meeting per month.  With 
planning and preparation we can go to 2.

----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From mech422 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 26 21:04:28 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 12:04:28 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607261204g42ded4d2j68d3a9830387cf0a@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> Having 2 meetings/month is a possibility.  There is a caveat to my previous
> suggestion of 2nd and 4th Thursday.  There is going to be low attendance in
> 4th Thursday meetings in both Nov. and Dec.
>
+1 (Assuming Ironport doesn't mind the extra meetings)

> IMO, what is more doable in the short term is 1 meeting per month.  With
> planning and preparation we can go to 2.
>
-1

Personally, I can see no reason to cancel the Ironport meetings to add
more google meetings.    I figure if there's not enough interest (in
any meeting location) - it will fade out on it's own.  No need to
'uproot' the people that do attend those meetings...

Steve

From DennisR at dair.com  Wed Jul 26 21:41:26 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 12:41:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <9a0545880607261204g42ded4d2j68d3a9830387cf0a@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>

At 12:04 PM 7/26/2006, steve hindle wrote:
>Personally, I can see no reason to cancel the Ironport meetings

Lack of planning volunteers, for one.  Without speakers, we end up with 
unfocused meetings.  I am not interested in organizing "let's see who shows 
up and shoot from the hip once people arrive" meetings (or attending, for 
that matter).

I am fine continuing to coordinate speakers at both locations.  But the 
honest truth is that Google is flat out a more attractive venue to the 
speakers.  I would rather concentrate on Google.  There is an opening for 
an IronPort planning coordinator.


>I figure if there's not enough interest (in
>any meeting location) - it will fade out on it's own.  No need to
>'uproot' the people that do attend those meetings...

The speakers have already "faded out" IronPort.  Most speaker prefer and 
will only speak at Google.  Most volunteers are already much closer to 
Google.

What I am hearing so far is no one objects to increasing Google 
meetings.  Any disagreement is in cutting back on IronPort meetings.  Fair 
summary?

To hold 12-12 or 6-12 meetings (IronPort-Google), we need to decide if they 
are both on the same 2nd Thursday night or one of them moves to some other 
night.  The easiest (not best) move is simply have both sites meet on 2nd 
Thur. I think it easiest to move the IronPort meetings.  Deciding whether 
and where to move IronPort meeting night can be the first task of the 
mythical IronPort meeting coordinator.

Regards, Dennis

----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Wed Jul 26 22:07:31 2006
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:07:31 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
Message-ID: <44C7CB83.1050700@mvista.com>

Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> At 12:04 PM 7/26/2006, steve hindle wrote:
>   
>> Personally, I can see no reason to cancel the Ironport meetings
>>     
>
> Lack of planning volunteers, for one.  Without speakers, we end up with 
> unfocused meetings.  I am not interested in organizing "let's see who shows 
> up and shoot from the hip once people arrive" meetings (or attending, for 
> that matter).
>   
Well, I will volunteer for both planning and presenting (although it 
might be a while before I have a project that i'm willing to subject to 
the scrutiny of the python elite).  I really like these meetings  and 
would hate for those that truely don't own vehicles and can't make it to 
google to miss them (granted I've only been to one and watched another 
on video, I think they are important).

> I am fine continuing to coordinate speakers at both locations.  But the 
> honest truth is that Google is flat out a more attractive venue to the 
> speakers.  I would rather concentrate on Google.  There is an opening for 
> an IronPort planning coordinator.
>
>
>   
>> I figure if there's not enough interest (in
>> any meeting location) - it will fade out on it's own.  No need to
>> 'uproot' the people that do attend those meetings...
>>     
>
> The speakers have already "faded out" IronPort.  Most speaker prefer and 
> will only speak at Google.  Most volunteers are already much closer to 
> Google.
>
> What I am hearing so far is no one objects to increasing Google 
> meetings.  Any disagreement is in cutting back on IronPort meetings.  Fair 
> summary?
>   
Getting to San Bruno in traffic (coming from the south) is more of an 
issue than the fact that its 20 miles away. That's the reason I'd like 
to see more google meetings


> To hold 12-12 or 6-12 meetings (IronPort-Google), we need to decide if they 
> are both on the same 2nd Thursday night or one of them moves to some other 
> night.  The easiest (not best) move is simply have both sites meet on 2nd 
> Thur. I think it easiest to move the IronPort meetings.  Deciding whether 
> and where to move IronPort meeting night can be the first task of the 
> mythical IronPort meeting coordinator.
>
> Regards, Dennis
>
> ----------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
> | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
> ----------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>   


-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From DennisR at dair.com  Wed Jul 26 22:34:22 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:34:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <44C7CB83.1050700@mvista.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726131419.00bfcd68@localhost>

At 01:07 PM 7/26/2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>Well, I will volunteer for both planning and presenting

Excellent.  Let's wait a day or two to finalize.  However, my experience 
here is that once someone says "I do", generally everyone else "forever 
holds their peace..." <grin>

I see that MonteVista has an office in Santa Clara.  I think one of the 
duties of a meeting coordinator is to attend most/all meetings.  Will you 
be at most/all the IronPort meetings?

I am working on the August 10 IronPort meeting now.  I am happy to share 
planning for this meeting to whatever extent (or non-extent) leads to a 
smooth transition.

>Getting to San Bruno in traffic (coming from the south) is more of an
>issue than the fact that its 20 miles away. That's the reason I'd like
>to see more google meetings

I take this to mean that you would not favor holding the IronPort and 
Google meetings on the same night, given the expectation you show up for 
IronPort meetings you plan.  Let's let the volunteer situation settle out 
and then move on to meeting schedules.

My inclination is to have the Google meetings on 2nd Thur every month 
starting with the September 2006 meeting.  Let's get the IronPort meetings 
settled and we can finalize.

Thanks for stepping forward, Dennis
----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From mech422 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 26 23:58:36 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:58:36 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607261458i3c411dedm14d41b08b391557e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>
> unfocused meetings.  I am not interested in organizing "let's see who shows
> up and shoot from the hip once people arrive" meetings (or attending, for
> that matter).
>
Understandable.  However, are the people that attend the IronPort
meetings willing to book their own speakers.  For that matter, are
they really concerned if there is a speaker or not (Perhaps they are
more interested in the 'social' aspects like the 'random access' ?)

> speakers.  I would rather concentrate on Google.  There is an opening for
> an IronPort planning coordinator.
>
Fair enough - if there is interest, someone that attends the IronPort
meetings should step up :-)

> meetings.  Any disagreement is in cutting back on IronPort meetings.  Fair
> summary?

Perfect summary, as far as I'm concerned :-)

Steve

From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Thu Jul 27 00:13:53 2006
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 15:13:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726131419.00bfcd68@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726131419.00bfcd68@localhost>
Message-ID: <44C7E921.4080509@mvista.com>

Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> At 01:07 PM 7/26/2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>   
>> Well, I will volunteer for both planning and presenting
>>     
>
> Excellent.  Let's wait a day or two to finalize.  However, my experience 
> here is that once someone says "I do", generally everyone else "forever 
> holds their peace..." <grin>
>
> I see that MonteVista has an office in Santa Clara.  I think one of the 
> duties of a meeting coordinator is to attend most/all meetings.  Will you 
> be at most/all the IronPort meetings?
>   
Well, I do what I can.  Last time I went I ended up getting there late.  
Despite my best efforts traffic got the better of me and unfortunately 
they haven't made me CEO yet so it will be a while before I get my own 
helicopter.  Anyhow, I'm always willing to help out if there's enough 
interest.  I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in 
defense of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the 
effort.  But should people want it and there be a need, I'd definitely 
like to help out.


> I am working on the August 10 IronPort meeting now.  I am happy to share 
> planning for this meeting to whatever extent (or non-extent) leads to a 
> smooth transition.
>
>   
>> Getting to San Bruno in traffic (coming from the south) is more of an
>> issue than the fact that its 20 miles away. That's the reason I'd like
>> to see more google meetings
>>     
>
> I take this to mean that you would not favor holding the IronPort and 
> Google meetings on the same night, given the expectation you show up for 
> IronPort meetings you plan.  Let's let the volunteer situation settle out 
> and then move on to meeting schedules.
>   
Agreed, seems like there are a few things floating around in the air 
that need to settle.  So I'll hold tight while I can ;)


> My inclination is to have the Google meetings on 2nd Thur every month 
> starting with the September 2006 meeting.  Let's get the IronPort meetings 
> settled and we can finalize.
>
> Thanks for stepping forward, Dennis
> ----------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
> | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
> ----------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>   


-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From ramkarthik at gmail.com  Thu Jul 27 00:28:15 2006
From: ramkarthik at gmail.com (ramk)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 15:28:15 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Reading file and inserting BLOB in oracle database.
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607261145m7638adf4kea96de4c646b45a7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <431F3AA252FCC246A85DE904CB15CB3F3AF39F@fdmail.digitchat.int>
	<44C7AE6E.2020407@ingres.com>
	<c41f67b90607261145m7638adf4kea96de4c646b45a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <531c2d850607261528u7552f5d2k2f3beca68aa6df41@mail.gmail.com>

I've used cx_Oracle before and it seemed to be do the job well for me
(haven't done anything with LOBs). Documentation seems to suggest that it is
supported.

Regards,
RamK.

http://starship.python.net/crew/atuining/cx_Oracle/index.html

On 7/26/06, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've used mxODBC with good results.
>
> Prasanna, I assume you've already checked out
> <http://www.python.org/topics/database/>.
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
> On 7/26/06, Chris Clark <Chris.Clark at ingres.com> wrote:
> > Prasanna Rajagopal wrote:
> > > Hi
> > > Thank you for your reply.  Is there something similar to "ingresdbi"
> for
> > > Oracle database, in other words, which python oracle driver I should
> > > use?
> >
> > I have no idea, I've seen at least one Oracle specific driver in my
> > travels but don't recall the name. I suspect google is your best friend
> > for that.
> >
> > There are a couple of ODBC based ones, one with a dual license (mxODBC)
> > and there is a free (MIT license) one called PyODBC
> > http://pyodbc.sourceforge.net/, I know they have lob support as we've
> > had some discussions with them.
> >
> > One slightly odd option would be to use the ingresdbi driver against
> > Oracle :-S ingresdbi is based on ODBC (written in C), it probably won't
> > work out of the box but it wouldn't take much work to get it to work
> > with multiple back ends (we accept code contributions :-)).
> >
> > >   I tried ADODB for python, but I felt it does not offer much
> > > support for BLOB handling.  I am new to Python, so I might be wrong.
> > >
> >
> > I've never used it (I've heard good things) and I don't know about the
> > lob support it has.
> >
> > > I tried the following:
> > > ..... snip'ed
> > > sql = "insert into blob_test (blobtestid, blob_field) values
> > > (101,empty_blob())"
> > >
> > > oraCur = oraConn.Execute(sql)
> > >
> > > oraConn.UpdateBlob('BLOB_TEST','BLOB_FIELD', data, 'BLOBTESTID = 101')
> > >
> > > This does not work.
> > >
> > This isn't following the DBI spec (it is an extension) so whilst can
> > guess what it is doing I don't _know_ what this is doing, the method
> > name certainly does imply there is lob support. You may want to try
> > emailing the author of the driver you are using, or even google for the
> > method name.
> >
> > Good luck,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
RamK
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Jul 27 01:28:02 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:28:02 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]  Wither IronPort?
In-Reply-To: <44C7E921.4080509@mvista.com>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726131419.00bfcd68@localhost>
	<44C7E921.4080509@mvista.com>
Message-ID: <20060726232802.GA25425@panix.com>

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>
> I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in defense  
> of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the effort.  

Maybe it's not worth the effort.  What I wonder is why IronPort needs to
be constantly defended.  The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close to just
leaving BayPIGgies.

I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is nothing that
needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more people), and
I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a location
despite never going there.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Jul 27 01:45:25 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:45:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
In-Reply-To: <20060726232802.GA25425@panix.com>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726131419.00bfcd68@localhost>
	<44C7E921.4080509@mvista.com> <20060726232802.GA25425@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607261645q77dc9775h3af9161ee026059c@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't spoken up to defend IronPort because I was wondering if
other people were going to do so.  It definitely seems that the most
anti-IronPort people are simply very vocal.  It's strange that Alex
who *works* at Google wasn't nearly as biased.  It doesn't matter to
me; I'm happy to be free of additional responsibilities.

Best Regards,
-jj

On 7/26/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
> >
> > I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in defense
> > of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the effort.
>
> Maybe it's not worth the effort.  What I wonder is why IronPort needs to
> be constantly defended.  The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
> mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close to just
> leaving BayPIGgies.
>
> I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is nothing that
> needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more people), and
> I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a location
> despite never going there.
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
> Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
> definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Thu Jul 27 02:01:47 2006
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:01:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607261645q77dc9775h3af9161ee026059c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726131419.00bfcd68@localhost>	<44C7E921.4080509@mvista.com>
	<20060726232802.GA25425@panix.com>
	<c41f67b90607261645q77dc9775h3af9161ee026059c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44C8026B.8000900@mvista.com>

Maybe the vocalness of the list users was throwing me off.  I definitely 
don't think its worth leaving the group over.  I think two things have 
come out of this, one is that people would like more google meetings, 
the other is that IronPort meetings need some help staffing. 

Does that sound about right?

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> I haven't spoken up to defend IronPort because I was wondering if
> other people were going to do so.  It definitely seems that the most
> anti-IronPort people are simply very vocal.  It's strange that Alex
> who *works* at Google wasn't nearly as biased.  It doesn't matter to
> me; I'm happy to be free of additional responsibilities.
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
> On 7/26/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>   
>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>>     
>>> I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in defense
>>> of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the effort.
>>>       
>> Maybe it's not worth the effort.  What I wonder is why IronPort needs to
>> be constantly defended.  The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
>> mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close to just
>> leaving BayPIGgies.
>>
>> I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is nothing that
>> needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more people), and
>> I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a location
>> despite never going there.
>> --
>> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>>
>> "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
>> Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
>> definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>   


-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From mac at Wireless.Com  Thu Jul 27 02:09:15 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:09:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <9a0545880607261458i3c411dedm14d41b08b391557e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<9a0545880607261458i3c411dedm14d41b08b391557e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0607261702520.1405@S.culver.net>

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, steve hindle wrote:

> On 7/26/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>>
>> unfocused meetings.  I am not interested in organizing "let's see who shows
>> up and shoot from the hip once people arrive" meetings (or attending, for
>> that matter).
>>
> Understandable.  However, are the people that attend the IronPort
> meetings willing to book their own speakers.  For that matter, are
> they really concerned if there is a speaker or not (Perhaps they are
> more interested in the 'social' aspects like the 'random access' ?)

I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings.  There is _never_ an agenda!  That would be far too organized for us.  We have pizza and chat about some aspect of NetBSD that is relevant to each of us, as we wish.  It's pure "random access".  Since several NetBSD developers show up, it's a great place to have questions answered, or to have other smart folks critique an idea or to have them suggest some ways of solving a problem.


>> speakers.  I would rather concentrate on Google.  There is an opening for
>> an IronPort planning coordinator.
>>
> Fair enough - if there is interest, someone that attends the IronPort
> meetings should step up :-)
>
>> meetings.  Any disagreement is in cutting back on IronPort meetings.  Fair
>> summary?
>
> Perfect summary, as far as I'm concerned :-)

Well, I suggested 12+12...

As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a reason to attend.  But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's gonna be interesting, program or not.

-Mike

From mech422 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 27 02:36:46 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:36:46 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0607261702520.1405@S.culver.net>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<9a0545880607261458i3c411dedm14d41b08b391557e@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0607261702520.1405@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607261736s119d2182u56ad3c52dbe7c6cc@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/06, Mike Cheponis <mac at wireless.com> wrote:
>
> I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings.  There is _never_ an agenda!  That would be far too organized for us.  We have pizza and chat about some aspect of NetBSD that is relevant to each of us, as we wish.  It's pure "random access".  Since several NetBSD developers show up, it's a great place to have questions answered, or to have other smart folks critique an idea or to have them suggest some ways of solving a problem.
>
Sounds like fun!  It's kind of funny - but once a meeting topic has
been posted, 50% of the fun goes out of the presentation for me.
Either its something that really gets me interested, and I can't wait
till the meeting to start playing with it, reading up on it, etc.  Or
its a topic that holds no interest for me.  Either way, its like a kid
that opens his xmas presents early :-P

However, I consistently get lots of cool ideas from just chatting with
other geeks.  Hearing what they're playing with, what they like/don't
like, etc.  Generally stuff I never would have thought of/investigated
...  All sorts of wierd and wonderful ideas just sort of bubble out.


>
> As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a reason to attend.  But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's gonna be interesting, program or not.
>
Yep - I really think its the people that make the meetings.  And we
have a nice wide variety of people to talk with/learn from in this
group....

Steve

From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Jul 27 02:24:36 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:24:36 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
In-Reply-To: <44C8026B.8000900@mvista.com>
References: <c41f67b90607261645q77dc9775h3af9161ee026059c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726131419.00bfcd68@localhost>
	<44C7E921.4080509@mvista.com> <20060726232802.GA25425@panix.com>
	<c41f67b90607261645q77dc9775h3af9161ee026059c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726170602.00c15250@localhost>

At 05:01 PM 7/26/2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>Maybe the vocalness of the list users was throwing me off.  I definitely
>don't think its worth leaving the group over.  I think two things have
>come out of this, one is that people would like more google meetings,
>the other is that IronPort meetings need some help staffing.
>
>Does that sound about right?

Yes, with the addition of an added item: we need a schedule where the two 
sites are not in contention with each other.  I think this is best done by 
moving the night of IronPort so it is not 2nd Thursday.  This is not, 
however, the only solution.

I believe the decision makers to decide IronPort future schedule are the 
people who attend the IronPort meetings or would attend if held on a 
different night.

Regards, Dennis
----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Jul 27 02:40:20 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:40:20 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607261645q77dc9775h3af9161ee026059c@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20060726232802.GA25425@panix.com>
	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726131419.00bfcd68@localhost>
	<44C7E921.4080509@mvista.com> <20060726232802.GA25425@panix.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726164910.00c02c08@localhost>


The lock-step alternating locations plan is not working for us.  In the 
lock-step plan, any increase at Google, of necessity, is a diminishment at 
IronPort.  We need to get out of lock-step so that each site can find its 
natural schedule.

                 pro(google) != anti(IronPort)

I suggest the natural schedule at Google is 12X/year.  The present schedule 
for IronPort is 6X/year.  If we do nothing else, both meetings are on the 
2nd Thursday.  I submit the most reasonable way to proceed is schedule 15 
minutes at next IronPort meeting for those attending at IronPort to decide 
what the ongoing IronPort schedule is.  A future Google meeting can set the 
ongoing schedule at Google, likely for 2007 and beyond.

Regards, Dennis


>I haven't spoken up to defend IronPort because I was wondering if
>other people were going to do so.  It definitely seems that the most
>anti-IronPort people are simply very vocal.  It's strange that Alex
>who *works* at Google wasn't nearly as biased.  It doesn't matter to
>me; I'm happy to be free of additional responsibilities.
>
>Best Regards,
>-jj
>
>On 7/26/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
> > >
> > > I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in defense
> > > of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the effort.
> >
> > Maybe it's not worth the effort.  What I wonder is why IronPort needs to
> > be constantly defended.  The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
> > mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close to just
> > leaving BayPIGgies.
> >
> > I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is nothing that
> > needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more people), and
> > I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a location
> > despite never going there.
> > --
> > Aahz 
> (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Jul 27 02:39:27 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:39:27 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0607261702520.1405@S.culver.net>
References: <9a0545880607261458i3c411dedm14d41b08b391557e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721094156.00becb58@localhost>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<9a0545880607261458i3c411dedm14d41b08b391557e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726172449.00c13a30@localhost>

At 05:09 PM 7/26/2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:

>SH>  For that matter, are
> > they really concerned if there is a speaker or not (Perhaps they are
> > more interested in the 'social' aspects like the 'random access' ?)
>
>MC>I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings.
>There is _never_ an agenda!  ... It's pure "random access".

I have seen multiple models work. IMO, video taping and broadcasting 
supports a speaker model.  We are not having difficulty filling out a solid 
speaker schedule at Google and are having difficulty at 
IronPort.  Fine.  So, let's adapt.

>Well, I suggested 12+12...
>As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a reason 
>to attend.  But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's gonna be 
>interesting, program or not.

Having meetings at two locations with quite different characters sounds 
great.  It would be nice if they were held on different nights, but not at 
all mandatory.  Many conferences have 2 or more tracks, where the attendee 
must chose one session to attend and attending both is not physically possible.


----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Jul 27 03:10:05 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:10:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726172449.00c13a30@localhost>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90607211346w7230c199vcea123e34a05866a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<9a0545880607261458i3c411dedm14d41b08b391557e@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0607261702520.1405@S.culver.net>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726172449.00c13a30@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607261810n2f068c90g765e5c206a28e99f@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 05:09 PM 7/26/2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>
> >SH>  For that matter, are
> > > they really concerned if there is a speaker or not (Perhaps they are
> > > more interested in the 'social' aspects like the 'random access' ?)
> >
> >MC>I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings.
> >There is _never_ an agenda!  ... It's pure "random access".
>
> I have seen multiple models work. IMO, video taping and broadcasting
> supports a speaker model.  We are not having difficulty filling out a solid
> speaker schedule at Google and are having difficulty at
> IronPort.  Fine.  So, let's adapt.
>
> >Well, I suggested 12+12...
> >As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a reason
> >to attend.  But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's gonna be
> >interesting, program or not.
>
> Having meetings at two locations with quite different characters sounds
> great.  It would be nice if they were held on different nights, but not at
> all mandatory.  Many conferences have 2 or more tracks, where the attendee
> must chose one session to attend and attending both is not physically possible.

Wow, I really dislike this "us vs. them" mentality.  I'm sorry, but
you've made it clear that you would not attend the IronPort meetings.
Hence, I feel like you're just getting rid of me by making it
impossible for me to attend the Google meetings.  I'm sure your intent
is friendly and not malicious, but I don't like this turn of events at
all.

Best Regards,
-jj

From mech422 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 27 03:19:17 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:19:17 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726164910.00c02c08@localhost>
References: <20060721163510.EE76E1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<44C14324.7040706@krishna2.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060721142352.00bed228@localhost>
	<4869cee70607212027qbcc6911m48acf43b403dd715@mail.google.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726112436.00bed260@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726121809.00bf9420@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726131419.00bfcd68@localhost>
	<44C7E921.4080509@mvista.com> <20060726232802.GA25425@panix.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060726164910.00c02c08@localhost>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607261819m13c500ahfcb322d097d41d25@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>
> 2nd Thursday.  I submit the most reasonable way to proceed is schedule 15
> minutes at next IronPort meeting for those attending at IronPort to decide
> what the ongoing IronPort schedule is.  A future Google meeting can set the
> ongoing schedule at Google, likely for 2007 and beyond.
>

That sounds like a good plan to me...

Steve

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Thu Jul 27 18:37:41 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:37:41 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re:  2006 Meeting Schedule
Message-ID: <20060727163744.71DFE1E4004@bag.python.org>


----- On Wednesday, July 26, 2006 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:

> On 7/26/06, Dennis Reinhardt  wrote:
>> At 05:09 PM 7/26/2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>>
>> >SH>  For that matter, are
>> > > they really concerned if there is a speaker or not (Perhaps they are
>> > > more interested in the 'social' aspects like the 'random access' ?)
>> >
>> >MC>I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings.
>> >There is _never_ an agenda!  ... It's pure "random access".
>>
>> I have seen multiple models work. IMO, video taping and broadcasting
>> supports a speaker model.  We are not having difficulty filling out a solid
>> speaker schedule at Google and are having difficulty at
>> IronPort.  Fine.  So, let's adapt.
>>
>> >Well, I suggested 12+12...
>> >As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a reason
>> >to attend.  But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's gonna be
>> >interesting, program or not.
>>
>> Having meetings at two locations with quite different characters sounds
>> great.  It would be nice if they were held on different nights, but not at
>> all mandatory.  Many conferences have 2 or more tracks, where the attendee
>> must chose one session to attend and attending both is not physically possible.
> 
> Wow, I really dislike this "us vs. them" mentality.  I'm sorry, but
> you've made it clear that you would not attend the IronPort meetings.
> Hence, I feel like you're just getting rid of me by making it
> impossible for me to attend the Google meetings.  I'm sure your intent
> is friendly and not malicious, but I don't like this turn of events at
> all.

I'm totally sure that Dennis was just throwing out ideas, and this was a silly one.  It surprised me too. My guess is that it was motivated by the desire to not restrict the Ironport meetings from happening when the Google meetings happen, if that's the time the Ironport people want to meet.  

If the Ironport meetings want to meet in that time slot, then we have to shift the Google meetings, or flip a coin or something.

No one would want to get rid of you!  You are a big asset to the group.  It's always nice to see you and you always share an impressive amount of good info.

The meetings simply cannot be simultaneous. 

Marilyn

> 
> Best Regards,
> -jj
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies





From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Jul 27 19:39:26 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:39:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re:  2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <20060727163744.71DFE1E4004@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060727094917.00bf1bc0@localhost>

At 09:37 AM 7/27/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:

>I'm totally sure that Dennis was just throwing out ideas, and this was a 
>silly one.  It surprised me too. My guess is that it was motivated by the 
>desire to not restrict the Ironport meetings from happening when the 
>Google meetings happen, if that's the time the Ironport people want to meet.

I was simply exploring how bad it would be if we failed to set up a 
no-conflict schedule.  Eliminating conflict is the desired outcome.

>The meetings simply cannot be simultaneous.

Without addressing which site actually moves, lets try to find desirable 
alternate times.  This is necessary because our hosts may (probably will) 
encounter room booking conflicts.  Here is a list of alternatives, in what 
I perceive to be ranking order, for comment:

         1. 2nd Thur   0 days from present meeting time
         2. 1st Thur   -7 days
         3. 3rd Thur   +7 days
         4. 1st Tue    -9 days
         5. 1st Wed    -8 days
         6. 3rd Wed    +6 days
         7. 3rd Tue    +5 days


There is no 4th week as there is contention with Thanksgiving and 
Christmas.  The other 4 days of the week have problems and I have avoided 
listing them as alternatives.

One possibility here is that in 2007 *both* sites change days so we meet on 
1st Thur at one location and 3rd Thur at the other.  Flip a coin who gets 
which date.  For now, lets get through 2006 with the least booking impact.

Regards, Dennis

----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Jul 27 22:44:53 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:44:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <20060727163744.71DFE1E4004@bag.python.org>
References: <20060727163744.71DFE1E4004@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607271344y62604d4cx2c99586d4ba7f7b7@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/06, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> ----- On Wednesday, July 26, 2006 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:
> > On 7/26/06, Dennis Reinhardt  wrote:
> >> At 05:09 PM 7/26/2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
> >>
> >> >SH>  For that matter, are
> >> > > they really concerned if there is a speaker or not (Perhaps they are
> >> > > more interested in the 'social' aspects like the 'random access' ?)
> >> >
> >> >MC>I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings.
> >> >There is _never_ an agenda!  ... It's pure "random access".
> >>
> >> I have seen multiple models work. IMO, video taping and broadcasting
> >> supports a speaker model.  We are not having difficulty filling out a solid
> >> speaker schedule at Google and are having difficulty at
> >> IronPort.  Fine.  So, let's adapt.
> >>
> >> >Well, I suggested 12+12...
> >> >As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a reason
> >> >to attend.  But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's gonna be
> >> >interesting, program or not.
> >>
> >> Having meetings at two locations with quite different characters sounds
> >> great.  It would be nice if they were held on different nights, but not at
> >> all mandatory.  Many conferences have 2 or more tracks, where the attendee
> >> must chose one session to attend and attending both is not physically possible.
> >
> > Wow, I really dislike this "us vs. them" mentality.  I'm sorry, but
> > you've made it clear that you would not attend the IronPort meetings.
> > Hence, I feel like you're just getting rid of me by making it
> > impossible for me to attend the Google meetings.  I'm sure your intent
> > is friendly and not malicious, but I don't like this turn of events at
> > all.
>
> I'm totally sure that Dennis was just throwing out ideas, and this was a silly one.  It surprised me too. My guess is that it was motivated by the desire to not restrict the Ironport meetings from happening when the Google meetings happen, if that's the time the Ironport people want to meet.
>
> If the Ironport meetings want to meet in that time slot, then we have to shift the Google meetings, or flip a coin or something.
>
> No one would want to get rid of you!  You are a big asset to the group.  It's always nice to see you and you always share an impressive amount of good info.

Thanks, Marilyn.

> The meetings simply cannot be simultaneous.

100% agreed.  Let's move on ;)

-jj

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Jul 27 23:06:03 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:06:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060727094917.00bf1bc0@localhost>
References: <20060727163744.71DFE1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060727094917.00bf1bc0@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607271406y31c1e854w704786e6388949f@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 09:37 AM 7/27/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>
> >I'm totally sure that Dennis was just throwing out ideas, and this was a
> >silly one.  It surprised me too. My guess is that it was motivated by the
> >desire to not restrict the Ironport meetings from happening when the
> >Google meetings happen, if that's the time the Ironport people want to meet.
>
> I was simply exploring how bad it would be if we failed to set up a
> no-conflict schedule.  Eliminating conflict is the desired outcome.
>
> >The meetings simply cannot be simultaneous.
>
> Without addressing which site actually moves, lets try to find desirable
> alternate times.  This is necessary because our hosts may (probably will)
> encounter room booking conflicts.  Here is a list of alternatives, in what
> I perceive to be ranking order, for comment:
>
>          1. 2nd Thur   0 days from present meeting time
>          2. 1st Thur   -7 days
>          3. 3rd Thur   +7 days
>          4. 1st Tue    -9 days
>          5. 1st Wed    -8 days
>          6. 3rd Wed    +6 days
>          7. 3rd Tue    +5 days
>
>
> There is no 4th week as there is contention with Thanksgiving and
> Christmas.  The other 4 days of the week have problems and I have avoided
> listing them as alternatives.
>
> One possibility here is that in 2007 *both* sites change days so we meet on
> 1st Thur at one location and 3rd Thur at the other.  Flip a coin who gets
> which date.  For now, lets get through 2006 with the least booking impact.

Well, before we keep spinning more cycles, perhaps I can kill this
conversation quickly; Is anyone going to be *upset* if I suggest we
just drop IronPort and hold all meetings at Google?  Google is a nice
place.  I don't mind the drive to Google all that much.

IronPort can probably step up at another time if we need a room again.
 Remember, IronPort and Google both stepped up at the same time
because we were afraid of having *no* room when we lost Stanford.
It's not all that important to have more than one room.

So, if you're going to be upset if we drop IronPort, speak now or
forever hold your peace.

(By the way, if you're only hesitation is lack of public transit, I'm
sure many of us, myself included, will offer you a ride given you can
get to a nearby BART station.)

Best Regards,
-jj

From brianomorchoe at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jul 28 02:05:17 2006
From: brianomorchoe at yahoo.co.uk (Brain Murphy)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 01:05:17 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 9, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <mailman.32083.1153961014.27774.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <20060728000517.81713.qmail@web25711.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Is it possible with wxpython to make a screen saver?
  I would like to make one of the Dark Mark were the snake is waving left to right and back.
  what would I need to do this, pygame?
  Brian

baypiggies-request at python.org wrote:  Send Baypiggies mailing list submissions to
 baypiggies at python.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
 baypiggies-request at python.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
 baypiggies-owner at python.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Baypiggies digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1.   Wither IronPort? (Aahz)
   2. Re:  Wither IronPort? (Shannon -jj Behrens)
   3. Re:  Wither IronPort? (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
   4. Re:  2006 Meeting Schedule (Mike Cheponis)
   5. Re:  2006 Meeting Schedule (steve hindle)
   6. Re:  Wither IronPort? (Dennis Reinhardt)
   7. Re:  Wither IronPort? (Dennis Reinhardt)
   8. Re:  2006 Meeting Schedule (Dennis Reinhardt)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:28:02 -0700
From: Aahz 
Subject: [Baypiggies]  Wither IronPort?
To: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID: <20060726232802.GA25425 at panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>
> I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in defense  
> of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the effort.  

Maybe it's not worth the effort.  What I wonder is why IronPort needs to
be constantly defended.  The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close to just
leaving BayPIGgies.

I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is nothing that
needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more people), and
I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a location
despite never going there.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:45:25 -0700
From: "Shannon -jj Behrens" 
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
To: Aahz 
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID:
 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I haven't spoken up to defend IronPort because I was wondering if
other people were going to do so.  It definitely seems that the most
anti-IronPort people are simply very vocal.  It's strange that Alex
who *works* at Google wasn't nearly as biased.  It doesn't matter to
me; I'm happy to be free of additional responsibilities.

Best Regards,
-jj

On 7/26/06, Aahz  wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
> >
> > I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in defense
> > of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the effort.
>
> Maybe it's not worth the effort.  What I wonder is why IronPort needs to
> be constantly defended.  The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
> mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close to just
> leaving BayPIGgies.
>
> I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is nothing that
> needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more people), and
> I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a location
> despite never going there.
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
> Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
> definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:01:47 -0700
From: "Carl J. Van Arsdall" 
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
To: Shannon -jj Behrens 
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID: <44C8026B.8000900 at mvista.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Maybe the vocalness of the list users was throwing me off.  I definitely 
don't think its worth leaving the group over.  I think two things have 
come out of this, one is that people would like more google meetings, 
the other is that IronPort meetings need some help staffing. 

Does that sound about right?

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> I haven't spoken up to defend IronPort because I was wondering if
> other people were going to do so.  It definitely seems that the most
> anti-IronPort people are simply very vocal.  It's strange that Alex
> who *works* at Google wasn't nearly as biased.  It doesn't matter to
> me; I'm happy to be free of additional responsibilities.
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
> On 7/26/06, Aahz  wrote:
>   
>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>>     
>>> I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in defense
>>> of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the effort.
>>>       
>> Maybe it's not worth the effort.  What I wonder is why IronPort needs to
>> be constantly defended.  The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
>> mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close to just
>> leaving BayPIGgies.
>>
>> I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is nothing that
>> needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more people), and
>> I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a location
>> despite never going there.
>> --
>> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>>
>> "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
>> Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
>> definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>   


-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:09:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mike Cheponis 
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
To: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID: 

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, steve hindle wrote:

> On 7/26/06, Dennis Reinhardt  wrote:
>>
>> unfocused meetings.  I am not interested in organizing "let's see who shows
>> up and shoot from the hip once people arrive" meetings (or attending, for
>> that matter).
>>
> Understandable.  However, are the people that attend the IronPort
> meetings willing to book their own speakers.  For that matter, are
> they really concerned if there is a speaker or not (Perhaps they are
> more interested in the 'social' aspects like the 'random access' ?)

I  regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings. There is  _never_ an agenda! That would be far too organized for us. We have  pizza and chat about some aspect of NetBSD that is relevant to each of  us, as we wish. It's pure "random access". Since several NetBSD  developers show up, it's a great place to have questions answered, or  to have other smart folks critique an idea or to have them suggest some  ways of solving a problem.


>> speakers.  I would rather concentrate on Google.  There is an opening for
>> an IronPort planning coordinator.
>>
> Fair enough - if there is interest, someone that attends the IronPort
> meetings should step up :-)
>
>> meetings.  Any disagreement is in cutting back on IronPort meetings.  Fair
>> summary?
>
> Perfect summary, as far as I'm concerned :-)

Well, I suggested 12+12...

As  I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a reason  to attend. But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's gonna be  interesting, program or not.

-Mike


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:36:46 -0700
From: "steve hindle" 
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
To: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID:
 <9a0545880607261736s119d2182u56ad3c52dbe7c6cc at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 7/26/06, Mike Cheponis  wrote:
>
>  I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings. There is  _never_ an agenda! That would be far too organized for us. We have  pizza and chat about some aspect of NetBSD that is relevant to each of  us, as we wish. It's pure "random access". Since several NetBSD  developers show up, it's a great place to have questions answered, or  to have other smart folks critique an idea or to have them suggest some  ways of solving a problem.
>
Sounds like fun!  It's kind of funny - but once a meeting topic has
been posted, 50% of the fun goes out of the presentation for me.
Either its something that really gets me interested, and I can't wait
till the meeting to start playing with it, reading up on it, etc.  Or
its a topic that holds no interest for me.  Either way, its like a kid
that opens his xmas presents early :-P

However, I consistently get lots of cool ideas from just chatting with
other geeks.  Hearing what they're playing with, what they like/don't
like, etc.  Generally stuff I never would have thought of/investigated
...  All sorts of wierd and wonderful ideas just sort of bubble out.


>
>  As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a  reason to attend. But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's gonna be  interesting, program or not.
>
Yep - I really think its the people that make the meetings.  And we
have a nice wide variety of people to talk with/learn from in this
group....

Steve


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:24:36 -0700
From: Dennis Reinhardt 
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
To: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726170602.00c15250 at localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 05:01 PM 7/26/2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>Maybe the vocalness of the list users was throwing me off.  I definitely
>don't think its worth leaving the group over.  I think two things have
>come out of this, one is that people would like more google meetings,
>the other is that IronPort meetings need some help staffing.
>
>Does that sound about right?

Yes, with the addition of an added item: we need a schedule where the two 
sites are not in contention with each other.  I think this is best done by 
moving the night of IronPort so it is not 2nd Thursday.  This is not, 
however, the only solution.

I believe the decision makers to decide IronPort future schedule are the 
people who attend the IronPort meetings or would attend if held on a 
different night.

Regards, Dennis
----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:40:20 -0700
From: Dennis Reinhardt 
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
To: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726164910.00c02c08 at localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


The lock-step alternating locations plan is not working for us.  In the 
lock-step plan, any increase at Google, of necessity, is a diminishment at 
IronPort.  We need to get out of lock-step so that each site can find its 
natural schedule.

                 pro(google) != anti(IronPort)

I suggest the natural schedule at Google is 12X/year.  The present schedule 
for IronPort is 6X/year.  If we do nothing else, both meetings are on the 
2nd Thursday.  I submit the most reasonable way to proceed is schedule 15 
minutes at next IronPort meeting for those attending at IronPort to decide 
what the ongoing IronPort schedule is.  A future Google meeting can set the 
ongoing schedule at Google, likely for 2007 and beyond.

Regards, Dennis


>I haven't spoken up to defend IronPort because I was wondering if
>other people were going to do so.  It definitely seems that the most
>anti-IronPort people are simply very vocal.  It's strange that Alex
>who *works* at Google wasn't nearly as biased.  It doesn't matter to
>me; I'm happy to be free of additional responsibilities.
>
>Best Regards,
>-jj
>
>On 7/26/06, Aahz  wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
> > >
> > > I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in defense
> > > of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the effort.
> >
> > Maybe it's not worth the effort.  What I wonder is why IronPort needs to
> > be constantly defended.  The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
> > mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close to just
> > leaving BayPIGgies.
> >
> > I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is nothing that
> > needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more people), and
> > I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a location
> > despite never going there.
> > --
> > Aahz 
> (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:39:27 -0700
From: Dennis Reinhardt 
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
To: baypiggies at python.org
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726172449.00c13a30 at localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 05:09 PM 7/26/2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:

>SH>  For that matter, are
> > they really concerned if there is a speaker or not (Perhaps they are
> > more interested in the 'social' aspects like the 'random access' ?)
>
>MC>I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings.
>There is _never_ an agenda!  ... It's pure "random access".

I have seen multiple models work. IMO, video taping and broadcasting 
supports a speaker model.  We are not having difficulty filling out a solid 
speaker schedule at Google and are having difficulty at 
IronPort.  Fine.  So, let's adapt.

>Well, I suggested 12+12...
>As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a reason 
>to attend.  But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's gonna be 
>interesting, program or not.

Having meetings at two locations with quite different characters sounds 
great.  It would be nice if they were held on different nights, but not at 
all mandatory.  Many conferences have 2 or more tracks, where the attendee 
must chose one session to attend and attending both is not physically possible.


----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


End of Baypiggies Digest, Vol 9, Issue 24
*****************************************



 		
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From mech422 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 02:39:43 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 17:39:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 9, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <20060728000517.81713.qmail@web25711.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.32083.1153961014.27774.baypiggies@python.org>
	<20060728000517.81713.qmail@web25711.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9a0545880607271739u532bddd6jb8961bb9b0313029@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/27/06, Brain Murphy <brianomorchoe at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Is it possible with wxpython to make a screen saver?
>  I would like to make one of the Dark Mark were the snake is waving left to
> right and back.
>  what would I need to do this, pygame?
>  Brian
>

I believe that would be a good start - I'd design a 'pure' script
first ( for instance, an object with a display() method).  Then add in
the screensaver specific code, which will be different depending on
whether your using X or windows

Steve

From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Jul 28 04:33:09 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 19:33:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] PY 3000 Oscon keynote preview
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060727094917.00bf1bc0@localhost>
References: <20060727163744.71DFE1E4004@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060727193139.00c01d68@localhost>

Guido previews his Oscon keynote.  About 1 hr 15 min.  Video dated July 26, 
2006:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6459339159268485356
----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From ken at seehart.com  Fri Jul 28 09:31:56 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 00:31:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 9, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <20060728000517.81713.qmail@web25711.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060728000517.81713.qmail@web25711.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44C9BD6C.5030500@seehart.com>

PyGame would be a better choice than wxPython for that.

check this out:
http://homepage.hispeed.ch/py430/python/
- Ken Seehart

Brain Murphy wrote:
> Is it possible with wxpython to make a screen saver?
> I would like to make one of the Dark Mark were the snake is waving 
> left to right and back.
> what would I need to do this, pygame?
> Brian
>
> */baypiggies-request at python.org/* wrote:
>
>     Send Baypiggies mailing list submissions to
>     baypiggies at python.org
>
>     To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>     or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     baypiggies-request at python.org
>
>     You can reach the person managing the list at
>     baypiggies-owner at python.org
>
>     When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>     than "Re: Contents of Baypiggies digest..."
>
>
>     Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Wither IronPort? (Aahz)
>     2. Re: Wither IronPort? (Shannon -jj Behrens)
>     3. Re: Wither IronPort? (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
>     4. Re: 2006 Meeting Schedule (Mike Cheponis)
>     5. Re: 2006 Meeting Schedule (steve hindle)
>     6. Re: Wither IronPort? (Dennis Reinhardt)
>     7. Re: Wither IronPort? (Dennis Reinhardt)
>     8. Re: 2006 Meeting Schedule (Dennis Reinhardt)
>
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Message: 1
>     Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:28:02 -0700
>     From: Aahz
>     Subject: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
>     To: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID: <20060726232802.GA25425 at panix.com>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>     On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>     >
>     > I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in
>     defense
>     > of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the
>     effort.
>
>     Maybe it's not worth the effort. What I wonder is why IronPort
>     needs to
>     be constantly defended. The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
>     mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close to
>     just
>     leaving BayPIGgies.
>
>     I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is nothing that
>     needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more
>     people), and
>     I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a location
>     despite never going there.
>     -- 
>     Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
>     "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
>     Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
>     definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian W. Kernighan
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 2
>     Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:45:25 -0700
>     From: "Shannon -jj Behrens"
>     Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
>     To: Aahz
>     Cc: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID:
>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>     I haven't spoken up to defend IronPort because I was wondering if
>     other people were going to do so. It definitely seems that the most
>     anti-IronPort people are simply very vocal. It's strange that Alex
>     who *works* at Google wasn't nearly as biased. It doesn't matter to
>     me; I'm happy to be free of additional responsibilities.
>
>     Best Regards,
>     -jj
>
>     On 7/26/06, Aahz wrote:
>     > On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>     > >
>     > > I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in
>     defense
>     > > of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the
>     effort.
>     >
>     > Maybe it's not worth the effort. What I wonder is why IronPort
>     needs to
>     > be constantly defended. The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
>     > mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close
>     to just
>     > leaving BayPIGgies.
>     >
>     > I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is nothing
>     that
>     > needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more
>     people), and
>     > I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a
>     location
>     > despite never going there.
>     > --
>     > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>     >
>     > "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
>     > Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
>     are, by
>     > definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian W. Kernighan
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Baypiggies mailing list
>     > Baypiggies at python.org
>     > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>     >
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 3
>     Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:01:47 -0700
>     From: "Carl J. Van Arsdall"
>     Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
>     To: Shannon -jj Behrens
>     Cc: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID: <44C8026B.8000900 at mvista.com>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>     Maybe the vocalness of the list users was throwing me off. I
>     definitely
>     don't think its worth leaving the group over. I think two things have
>     come out of this, one is that people would like more google meetings,
>     the other is that IronPort meetings need some help staffing.
>
>     Does that sound about right?
>
>     Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>     > I haven't spoken up to defend IronPort because I was wondering if
>     > other people were going to do so. It definitely seems that the most
>     > anti-IronPort people are simply very vocal. It's strange that Alex
>     > who *works* at Google wasn't nearly as biased. It doesn't matter to
>     > me; I'm happy to be free of additional responsibilities.
>     >
>     > Best Regards,
>     > -jj
>     >
>     > On 7/26/06, Aahz wrote:
>     >
>     >> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>     >>
>     >>> I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in
>     defense
>     >>> of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the
>     effort.
>     >>>
>     >> Maybe it's not worth the effort. What I wonder is why IronPort
>     needs to
>     >> be constantly defended. The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
>     >> mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this close
>     to just
>     >> leaving BayPIGgies.
>     >>
>     >> I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is
>     nothing that
>     >> needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more
>     people), and
>     >> I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a
>     location
>     >> despite never going there.
>     >> --
>     >> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>     >>
>     >> "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
>     >> Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
>     are, by
>     >> definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian W. Kernighan
>     >> _______________________________________________
>     >> Baypiggies mailing list
>     >> Baypiggies at python.org
>     >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>     >>
>     >>
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Baypiggies mailing list
>     > Baypiggies at python.org
>     > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>     >
>
>
>     -- 
>
>     Carl J. Van Arsdall
>     cvanarsdall at mvista.com
>     Build and Release
>     MontaVista Software
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 4
>     Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:09:15 -0700 (PDT)
>     From: Mike Cheponis
>     Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
>     To: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID:
>     Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>     On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, steve hindle wrote:
>
>     > On 7/26/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>     >>
>     >> unfocused meetings. I am not interested in organizing "let's
>     see who shows
>     >> up and shoot from the hip once people arrive" meetings (or
>     attending, for
>     >> that matter).
>     >>
>     > Understandable. However, are the people that attend the IronPort
>     > meetings willing to book their own speakers. For that matter, are
>     > they really concerned if there is a speaker or not (Perhaps they are
>     > more interested in the 'social' aspects like the 'random access' ?)
>
>     I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings. There is
>     _never_ an agenda! That would be far too organized for us. We have
>     pizza and chat about some aspect of NetBSD that is relevant to
>     each of us, as we wish. It's pure "random access". Since several
>     NetBSD developers show up, it's a great place to have questions
>     answered, or to have other smart folks critique an idea or to have
>     them suggest some ways of solving a problem.
>
>
>     >> speakers. I would rather concentrate on Google. There is an
>     opening for
>     >> an IronPort planning coordinator.
>     >>
>     > Fair enough - if there is interest, someone that attends the
>     IronPort
>     > meetings should step up :-)
>     >
>     >> meetings. Any disagreement is in cutting back on IronPort
>     meetings. Fair
>     >> summary?
>     >
>     > Perfect summary, as far as I'm concerned :-)
>
>     Well, I suggested 12+12...
>
>     As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a
>     reason to attend. But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's
>     gonna be interesting, program or not.
>
>     -Mike
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 5
>     Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:36:46 -0700
>     From: "steve hindle"
>     Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
>     To: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID:
>     <9a0545880607261736s119d2182u56ad3c52dbe7c6cc at mail.gmail.com>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>     On 7/26/06, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>     >
>     > I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings. There
>     is _never_ an agenda! That would be far too organized for us. We
>     have pizza and chat about some aspect of NetBSD that is relevant
>     to each of us, as we wish. It's pure "random access". Since
>     several NetBSD developers show up, it's a great place to have
>     questions answered, or to have other smart folks critique an idea
>     or to have them suggest some ways of solving a problem.
>     >
>     Sounds like fun! It's kind of funny - but once a meeting topic has
>     been posted, 50% of the fun goes out of the presentation for me.
>     Either its something that really gets me interested, and I can't wait
>     till the meeting to start playing with it, reading up on it, etc. Or
>     its a topic that holds no interest for me. Either way, its like a kid
>     that opens his xmas presents early :-P
>
>     However, I consistently get lots of cool ideas from just chatting with
>     other geeks. Hearing what they're playing with, what they like/don't
>     like, etc. Generally stuff I never would have thought of/investigated
>     ... All sorts of wierd and wonderful ideas just sort of bubble out.
>
>
>     >
>     > As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people
>     a reason to attend. But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's
>     gonna be interesting, program or not.
>     >
>     Yep - I really think its the people that make the meetings. And we
>     have a nice wide variety of people to talk with/learn from in this
>     group....
>
>     Steve
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 6
>     Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:24:36 -0700
>     From: Dennis Reinhardt
>     Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
>     To: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726170602.00c15250 at localhost>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>     At 05:01 PM 7/26/2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>     >Maybe the vocalness of the list users was throwing me off. I
>     definitely
>     >don't think its worth leaving the group over. I think two things have
>     >come out of this, one is that people would like more google meetings,
>     >the other is that IronPort meetings need some help staffing.
>     >
>     >Does that sound about right?
>
>     Yes, with the addition of an added item: we need a schedule where
>     the two
>     sites are not in contention with each other. I think this is best
>     done by
>     moving the night of IronPort so it is not 2nd Thursday. This is not,
>     however, the only solution.
>
>     I believe the decision makers to decide IronPort future schedule
>     are the
>     people who attend the IronPort meetings or would attend if held on a
>     different night.
>
>     Regards, Dennis
>     ----------------------------------
>     | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com |
>     | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
>     ----------------------------------
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 7
>     Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:40:20 -0700
>     From: Dennis Reinhardt
>     Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Wither IronPort?
>     To: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726164910.00c02c08 at localhost>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>
>     The lock-step alternating locations plan is not working for us. In
>     the
>     lock-step plan, any increase at Google, of necessity, is a
>     diminishment at
>     IronPort. We need to get out of lock-step so that each site can
>     find its
>     natural schedule.
>
>     pro(google) != anti(IronPort)
>
>     I suggest the natural schedule at Google is 12X/year. The present
>     schedule
>     for IronPort is 6X/year. If we do nothing else, both meetings are
>     on the
>     2nd Thursday. I submit the most reasonable way to proceed is
>     schedule 15
>     minutes at next IronPort meeting for those attending at IronPort
>     to decide
>     what the ongoing IronPort schedule is. A future Google meeting can
>     set the
>     ongoing schedule at Google, likely for 2007 and beyond.
>
>     Regards, Dennis
>
>
>     >I haven't spoken up to defend IronPort because I was wondering if
>     >other people were going to do so. It definitely seems that the most
>     >anti-IronPort people are simply very vocal. It's strange that Alex
>     >who *works* at Google wasn't nearly as biased. It doesn't matter to
>     >me; I'm happy to be free of additional responsibilities.
>     >
>     >Best Regards,
>     >-jj
>     >
>     >On 7/26/06, Aahz wrote:
>     > > On Wed, Jul 26, 2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
>     > > >
>     > > > I honestly haven't seen too many people actually speak up in
>     defense
>     > > > of Iron Port yet, so I'm starting to wonder if its worth the
>     effort.
>     > >
>     > > Maybe it's not worth the effort. What I wonder is why IronPort
>     needs to
>     > > be constantly defended. The whole thing has left a bad taste in my
>     > > mouth, I'm sick and tired, and quite frankly, I'm >< this
>     close to just
>     > > leaving BayPIGgies.
>     > >
>     > > I'll just note one more time that IronPort attendance is
>     nothing that
>     > > needs defending (IIRC, it consistently gets fifteen or more
>     people), and
>     > > I'm certainly not the only person who supports IronPort as a
>     location
>     > > despite never going there.
>     > > --
>     > > Aahz
>     > (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
>     ----------------------------------
>     | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com |
>     | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
>     ----------------------------------
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 8
>     Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:39:27 -0700
>     From: Dennis Reinhardt
>     Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
>     To: baypiggies at python.org
>     Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060726172449.00c13a30 at localhost>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>     At 05:09 PM 7/26/2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>
>     >SH> For that matter, are
>     > > they really concerned if there is a speaker or not (Perhaps
>     they are
>     > > more interested in the 'social' aspects like the 'random
>     access' ?)
>     >
>     >MC>I regularly attend the South Bay NetBSD monthly meetings.
>     >There is _never_ an agenda! ... It's pure "random access".
>
>     I have seen multiple models work. IMO, video taping and broadcasting
>     supports a speaker model. We are not having difficulty filling out
>     a solid
>     speaker schedule at Google and are having difficulty at
>     IronPort. Fine. So, let's adapt.
>
>     >Well, I suggested 12+12...
>     >As I see it, the meeting topics are a "draw" - they give people a
>     reason
>     >to attend. But once a bunch of pythonistas gather, it's gonna be
>     >interesting, program or not.
>
>     Having meetings at two locations with quite different characters
>     sounds
>     great. It would be nice if they were held on different nights, but
>     not at
>     all mandatory. Many conferences have 2 or more tracks, where the
>     attendee
>     must chose one session to attend and attending both is not
>     physically possible.
>
>
>     ----------------------------------
>     | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com |
>     | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
>     ----------------------------------
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Baypiggies mailing list
>     Baypiggies at python.org
>     http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>     End of Baypiggies Digest, Vol 9, Issue 24
>     *****************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/nowyoucan/reading_pane/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40565/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html>. 
> Get the new Yahoo! Mail 
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>   

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From p at ulmcnett.com  Fri Jul 28 17:36:41 2006
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 08:36:41 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Trip-up
Message-ID: <44CA2F09.4050707@ulmcnett.com>

I keep reaching the point where I feel like I understand Python and 
could even teach it, but then:

 >>> a = 123456
 >>> b = 123456
 >>> a is b
False
 >>> 123456 is 123456
True

I think this is really just an implementation detail rearing its head:

 >>> id(123456)
135732936
 >>> id(123456)
135732936
 >>> id(a)
135732948
 >>> id(b)
135732960

So Python is reusing the same id for the unbound 123456 value each time. 
Fair enough, but it still startled me at first. I guess my new mantra is 
"never work with unbound objects..."

-- 
Paul McNett
http://paulmcnett.com
http://dabodev.com


From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Jul 28 17:51:06 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 08:51:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Trip-up
In-Reply-To: <44CA2F09.4050707@ulmcnett.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060728084824.00bf6e68@localhost>

At 08:36 AM 7/28/2006, Paul McNett wrote:
>  >>> a = 123456
>  >>> b = 123456
>  >>> a is b
>False

But ...
 >>> a == b
True

>I guess my new mantra is
>"never work with unbound objects..."

A better mantra might be "use == to compare values"
----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From p at ulmcnett.com  Fri Jul 28 19:49:09 2006
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 10:49:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Trip-up
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060728084824.00bf6e68@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060728084824.00bf6e68@localhost>
Message-ID: <44CA4E15.5070304@ulmcnett.com>

(Oops, I guess I hit 'reply' and not 'reply-all' followed by removing 
all but BayPiggies. I kind of miss KMail - it had a reply-list option. 
Other lists I'm on mangle the reply-to so that all replies go to the 
list instead of the individual. I'm used to that, but I don't know what 
the best solution is.)

Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> At 08:36 AM 7/28/2006, Paul McNett wrote:
>>  >>> a = 123456
>>  >>> b = 123456
>>  >>> a is b
>> False
> 
> But ...
>  >>> a == b
> True
> 
>> I guess my new mantra is
>> "never work with unbound objects..."
> 
> A better mantra might be "use == to compare values"

This was simply a reduced-to-bitesize example. For value comparison, use
value comparison operators, yes I know. :)

I have a situation I've inherited where mutable objects saved in a ZODB
are actually referring to mutable objects elsewhere in the db, where
that definitely wasn't the intent (the list in object AA IS the same
list in object ZZ... ouch!) I was coming up with strategies to fix this
and other problems when I tripped myself up with the example I posted.

Time for another cup of tea!

-- 
Paul McNett
http://paulmcnett.com
http://dabodev.com



From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 22:09:05 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:09:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Trip-up
In-Reply-To: <44CA2F09.4050707@ulmcnett.com>
References: <44CA2F09.4050707@ulmcnett.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607281309q3794db84n88d2925f844301e2@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/28/06, Paul McNett <p at ulmcnett.com> wrote:
> I keep reaching the point where I feel like I understand Python and
> could even teach it, but then:
>
>  >>> a = 123456
>  >>> b = 123456
>  >>> a is b
> False
>  >>> 123456 is 123456
> True
>
> I think this is really just an implementation detail rearing its head:
>
>  >>> id(123456)
> 135732936
>  >>> id(123456)
> 135732936
>  >>> id(a)
> 135732948
>  >>> id(b)
> 135732960
>
> So Python is reusing the same id for the unbound 123456 value each time.
> Fair enough, but it still startled me at first. I guess my new mantra is
> "never work with unbound objects..."

"Learning Python" has a really great section covering just this topic
(i.e. "is" with respect to ints).  I agree with Dennis--I rarely use
"is" instead of "==".  I think "is None" and "is not None" are useful,
but I almost always use "==" for everything else.

Best Regards,
-jj

From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Fri Jul 28 23:22:03 2006
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:22:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Trip-up
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607281309q3794db84n88d2925f844301e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44CA2F09.4050707@ulmcnett.com>
	<c41f67b90607281309q3794db84n88d2925f844301e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0607281409010.13099@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>


>> I keep reaching the point where I feel like I understand Python and
>> could even teach it, but then:
>>
>> >>> a = 123456
>> >>> b = 123456
>> >>> a is b
>> False
>> >>> 123456 is 123456
>> True


The confusion has to do with the misconception of numbers as somehow more 
special than other objects.  Numbers are objects in Python, just like 
anything else.

Just as list literals allocate new object instances:

############
>>> [] is []
False
############

we should expect the same behavior from the other literals.


It's only accidental (from the implementation) that the second case here 
that deals with numbers:

#######################
>>> 123456 is 123456
True
#######################

returns a true value.  If we change it to something else, we'll see 
something different:

################################
>>> 123000 + 456 is 123000 + 456
False
################################


If we wish to explicitely keep only one instance of a number at a time, we 
can intern these values in a cache:

############################################################
>>> cache = {}
>>> def internNumber(n):
...     if n not in cache:
...         cache[n] = n
...     return cache[n]
...
>>> internNumber(123000 + 456) is internNumber(123000 + 456)
True
############################################################


But this seems a bit of overkill to do this for numbers.  *grin* It might 
make more sense to take this effort for strings if we wanted to simulate 
the behavior that Lisp's symbols guarantee.

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Jul 29 01:25:33 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 16:25:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2006 Meeting Schedule
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060728161505.00c33170@localhost>

At 01:07 PM 7/26/2006, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
 >Well, I will volunteer for both planning and presenting
DR> Excellent.  Let's wait a day or two to finalize.

Carl,

It appears the position of IronPort planning may no longer need a volunteer 
as there appear to be no scheduled IronPort meetings past Aug. 10.

I have you down in my notes for both volunteering and presenting at some 
future time.  I look forward to meeting you at a future meeting and will 
keep you in mind.  For that matter, if/as you attend meetings, you may well 
see something that needs doing and just jump right in!

Regards, Dennis
----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Jul 29 01:27:57 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 16:27:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90607271406y31c1e854w704786e6388949f@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060727094917.00bf1bc0@localhost>
	<20060727163744.71DFE1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060727094917.00bf1bc0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060728155709.00bfb1d8@localhost>

At 02:06 PM 7/27/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>...  perhaps I can kill this conversation quickly; Is anyone going
>to be *upset* if I suggest we just drop IronPort and hold all
>meetings at Google?


Well, that certainly killed the conversation all right....

I would like to ask and confirm that we still meet at IronPort Aug. 
10.  This permits us to have face to face followup among those most affected.

It is late to switch the Aug. 10 meeting to Google but perhaps 
possible.  JJ, I think where we meet Aug. 10 is your call.  My vote is lets 
meet Aug. 10 at IronPort.

Regards, Dennis
----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Jul 29 02:22:22 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 17:22:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: 2006 Meeting Schedule
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060728155709.00bfb1d8@localhost>
References: <20060727163744.71DFE1E4004@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060727094917.00bf1bc0@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060728155709.00bfb1d8@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90607281722l6d96e6ev9eb6da020530bf65@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/28/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 02:06 PM 7/27/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >...  perhaps I can kill this conversation quickly; Is anyone going
> >to be *upset* if I suggest we just drop IronPort and hold all
> >meetings at Google?
>
>
> Well, that certainly killed the conversation all right....
>
> I would like to ask and confirm that we still meet at IronPort Aug.
> 10.  This permits us to have face to face followup among those most affected.
>
> It is late to switch the Aug. 10 meeting to Google but perhaps
> possible.  JJ, I think where we meet Aug. 10 is your call.  My vote is lets
> meet Aug. 10 at IronPort.

I absolutely agree.  We should continue with the August 10th meeting
at IronPort.

-jj

From ken at seehart.com  Sat Jul 29 07:27:13 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:27:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] File IO question
In-Reply-To: <f0aa69930607250656h3a01244cy5b74631b0affb4c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060724154222.00bffc30@localhost>	
	<44C60A0E.3050600@seehart.com>
	<f0aa69930607250656h3a01244cy5b74631b0affb4c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44CAF1B1.70007@seehart.com>

Thanks everyone for your helpful comments.  A couple of you were asking 
about the hardware
configuration and OS.  I got a response from our hardware vendor that 
answers these questions
and sheds some light on the beating up on FLASH issue.

- Ken Seehart
> Ken,
>
> The Intel specification gives guarantied 100000 write cycle of the FLASH
> memory.  The JFFS2 itself does have "wear leveling" built-in.  According to
> the JFFS2 documentation it actually moves data around for each write to
> achieve that.  It uses CRC check-sum to make sure data written is correct.
> The reason we set up the RAM disk as the root file system instead of using
> the JFFS2 straight as root file system is to minimize the write operation of
> the OS to the FLASH memory. You need to calculate exactly how many writes
> you need to do each hour and try to minimize the write operation as much as
> possible to get best use of the FLASH memory.  You can find more information
> about the JFFS2 at http://sourceware.org/jffs2/jffs2-html/
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Zhong

Aahz wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 25, 2006, Ken Seehart wrote:
>   
>> My question is this: If I write a single byte to a file that contains
>> exactly one byte, can I be sure that a power outage during the write
>> will not render the file unreadable?
>>     
>
> No, you cannot be sure.  What I would do is keep the data in two
> different directories; that makes it more likely that you'll be able to
> recover your data.  Also, what OS are you using?  (Yes, I saw that it was
> Linux, not all Linux is alike.)  You may be able to format the flash disk
> with a filesystem that allows journaling.
>
> Another point: I would use \x00 and \xFF for the byte.
>   
Rick Kwan wrote:
> Is this on top of JFFS2 sitting on top of an MTD-style device?
>
> I believe JFFS2 writes a new copy of the file somewhere, in many cases
> the end of the file system, not on top of the previous incarnation.
> But I would also like to hear a more authoritative answer.  (I'm also
> doing embedded Linux and writing to flash, but building on someone
> else's work.)
>
> --Rick Kwan

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From brianomorchoe at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jul 31 20:13:00 2006
From: brianomorchoe at yahoo.co.uk (Brain Murphy)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:13:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] help with pygame
In-Reply-To: <mailman.41.1154167246.29913.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <20060731181300.47743.qmail@web25710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

I have downloaded pygame, and am trying to work with it, but the tutorials do not help me much. are there more tutorials out there? can some one help me? i have a picture of the dar mark an I would like it so that when I start the program a green thing(like a light) swirls around the screen and when it hits the centre it explodes and a skull appears then the snake comes out and around  and stops some were. That's what I am trying to make but I have not found anything that has come close to helping.
  any Ideas?
  Hope you can help.
  Brian



 		
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From andywiggin at gmail.com  Mon Jul 31 23:03:02 2006
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 14:03:02 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] help with pygame
In-Reply-To: <20060731181300.47743.qmail@web25710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.41.1154167246.29913.baypiggies@python.org>
	<20060731181300.47743.qmail@web25710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0607311403r624497efp102dff302b37c139@mail.gmail.com>

Brian,
can't say I've seen anything quite like that. But, I've found the
little games form the pygame site to be instructive to read
(http://www.pygame.org/gamelets/). For example, bombers has aliens and
bullets flying around, and when the aliens explode there's an
explosion animation sequence. That's some of what you're talking
about, I think.

Most of the pygame examples I've seen revolve around moving
pre-created images (sprites) around the screen, fading them in and
out, rotating them, etc. So, if you can frame the effect you're
looking for in those terms, you can probably do it pretty easily with
pygame.

-Andy