From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 1 02:28:38 2005 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:28:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Ok, web server reestablished; we'll get the domain transferred later this week Message-ID: Hi everyone, Ok, thanks for the hosting recommendations. We've moved over the web content to python-hosting.com. At the moment, the baypiggies web page should be accessible from here: http://baypiggies.python-hosted.com and we'll transfer the 'baypiggies.net' domain name sometime later this week. Best of wishes! From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Dec 1 03:29:48 2005 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:29:48 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ok, web server reestablished; we'll get the domain transferred later this week In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051201022948.GA29105@panix.com> On Wed, Nov 30, 2005, Danny Yoo wrote: > > Ok, thanks for the hosting recommendations. We've moved over the web > content to python-hosting.com. At the moment, the baypiggies web page > should be accessible from here: > > http://baypiggies.python-hosted.com > > and we'll transfer the 'baypiggies.net' domain name sometime later this > week. Yay! Thanks for the work Danny! (The info for the December meeting is already up there, so there are no urgent updates.) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire yourself a competent schmuck." --USENET schmuck (aka Robert Kern) From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Dec 1 04:52:46 2005 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:52:46 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving Message-ID: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> The Baypiggies.net domain is moving. I'll be updating the DNS and transferring the domain. Until the DNS finishes propagating, it can be reached here: http:// baypiggies.python-hosted.com For historical interest, here are the events that transpired: 0) I founded the group in 1999. Like Guido, I really relish that crowded group we had one night at the CoffeeNet. That was great. 1) I turned over the keys to the web site. 2) When I got the web standards bug and re-did the web site in 2004, turning it over with the understanding that WEB STANDARDS WOULD BE FOLLOWED. 3) During a job interview a few months ago, I was dissed for the non- standard markup on the BayPiggies page, because my name was on it and I was interviewing for a web design position. Isn't that special? I didn't get the job. I was pissed off, thought I sent a note at the time, but I can't find it in my outbox. 4) In early November, I bumped up my hosting plan at TextDrive, which would allow for Django or TurboGears to be used for the site (or pretty much anything else). I wrote the four people (Wes, Tony, Aahz, and Danny) to see if they were okay with moving it. Aahz wanted to change the site using emacs, didn't want anything fancy -- but this wouldn't work because I could only offer an sftp-only account. 5) I looked at the markup and freaked (45 validation errors for an index page, including markup that was NEVER valid). I wrote a note giving them 48 hours to fix it (which I would have extended HAD ANYONE BOTHERED TO EMAIL AND ASK). 6) I checked the front page on the w3's validator, saw the same number of email errors, and took the site down and locked out the four logins. 7) Danny contacted me offlist. I told him more (than I'm going to write here) about what's happened, why I left BayPiggies, and why in particular, there are some members (Aahz in particular) whom I'd never care to see again. 8) I was offered a job, but I'd have to move out of the bay area, meaning my ability to host the domain and/or DNS under the current setup is going away entirely (it's currently hosted from my living room). All my existing domains will be hosted on my hosting account, which typically hasn't been the case in the past. 9) I offered to transfer the domain. I refused offers to purchase the domain by non-members. I put a tarball of the old website on my strongspace.com account so that it could be retrieved. I gave the information to Danny. 10) It's now in the process of being transferred. And Giles, yes, I make my living doing Ruby development (specifically Ruby on Rails), but that's not really why this happened.... -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Dec 1 05:29:03 2005 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:29:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > And Giles, yes, I make my living doing Ruby development (specifically > Ruby on Rails) I'm curious, why don't you use TurboGears? ( I'd rather have my fingernails pulled out with pliers than use Ruby. ) -Mike From ben at groovie.org Thu Dec 1 05:40:45 2005 From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:40:45 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> Message-ID: <0A72AD1B-B9EB-448E-84EF-C89B061A386C@groovie.org> On Nov 30, 2005, at 8:29 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote: > On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > >> And Giles, yes, I make my living doing Ruby development (specifically >> Ruby on Rails) > > I'm curious, why don't you use TurboGears? > > ( I'd rather have my fingernails pulled out with pliers than use > Ruby. ) Oh come on, be nice. We might not have had TurboGears without a project like Rails. ;) Seriously, in the Python web world, making so many decisions for a user, instead of giving them 'ultimate flexibility to choose their tools' would have been enough to get you lynched. Now that there's a project that shows the obvious advantages of making all the 'tough' decisions for you, the benefits are fairly obvious. Though I've forgotten what they are at the moment.... Cheers, Ben From whit at kalistra.com Thu Dec 1 06:01:32 2005 From: whit at kalistra.com (whit morriss) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:01:32 -0600 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: <0A72AD1B-B9EB-448E-84EF-C89B061A386C@groovie.org> References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <0A72AD1B-B9EB-448E-84EF-C89B061A386C@groovie.org> Message-ID: <438E83AC.9000006@kalistra.com> if nothing else, ruby-on-rails has given hope to hundreds of long-suffering zope2 developers who now can consider that there might be a world with less pain that does not require sitting through the zope3 tutorial. -w Ben Bangert wrote: >On Nov 30, 2005, at 8:29 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > > >>On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: >> >> >> >>>And Giles, yes, I make my living doing Ruby development (specifically >>>Ruby on Rails) >>> >>> >>I'm curious, why don't you use TurboGears? >> >>( I'd rather have my fingernails pulled out with pliers than use >>Ruby. ) >> >> > >Oh come on, be nice. We might not have had TurboGears without a >project like Rails. ;) > >Seriously, in the Python web world, making so many decisions for a >user, instead of giving them 'ultimate flexibility to choose their >tools' would have been enough to get you lynched. Now that there's a >project that shows the obvious advantages of making all the 'tough' >decisions for you, the benefits are fairly obvious. Though I've >forgotten what they are at the moment.... > >Cheers, >Ben >_______________________________________________ >Baypiggies mailing list >Baypiggies at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > -- | david "whit" morriss | | contact :: http://public.xdi.org/=whit "If you don't know where you are, you don't know anything at all" Dr. Edgar Spencer, Ph.D., 1995 "I like to write code like other ppl like to tune their cars or 10kW hifi equipment..." Christian Heimes, 2004 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: whit.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20051130/604606b4/whit.vcf From nnorwitz at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 06:19:12 2005 From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:19:12 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: <0A72AD1B-B9EB-448E-84EF-C89B061A386C@groovie.org> References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <0A72AD1B-B9EB-448E-84EF-C89B061A386C@groovie.org> Message-ID: On 11/30/05, Ben Bangert wrote: > > Oh come on, be nice. We might not have had TurboGears without a > project like Rails. ;) > > Seriously, in the Python web world, making so many decisions for a > user, instead of giving them 'ultimate flexibility to choose their > tools' would have been enough to get you lynched. Now that there's a > project that shows the obvious advantages of making all the 'tough' > decisions for you, the benefits are fairly obvious. Though I've > forgotten what they are at the moment.... This is an interesting thread given something I just read at work this evening. There is a Java group that needed something that allowed them to move faster than Java allowed. They chose rails over a python solution. One reason was they claimed there were 15 python web/templating solutions and 50 java ones. Rails was an easy choice because there was no need to figure out which was the best. I understand this argument cuts both ways (I've used both sides in the past). I'm curious what people here think. Someone else mentioned that rails is the killer app for ruby that python still doesn't have. n From gilesb at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 06:30:32 2005 From: gilesb at gmail.com (Giles Bowkett) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:30:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <0A72AD1B-B9EB-448E-84EF-C89B061A386C@groovie.org> Message-ID: <2d81dedb0511302130q3ca433a3oce9230758453e4e1@mail.gmail.com> > Someone else mentioned that rails is the killer app for ruby that > python still doesn't have. Python has Blender, which is pretty awesome, even though Blender obviously doesn't have the hype Rails has. -- Giles Bowkett = Giles Goat Boy http://www.gilesgoatboy.org/ From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Dec 1 06:49:31 2005 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:49:31 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> Message-ID: <4CAA0AD1-3592-4240-8148-E560DEAA45F6@deirdre.net> On Nov 30, 2005, at 8:29 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote: > On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > >> And Giles, yes, I make my living doing Ruby development (specifically >> Ruby on Rails) > > I'm curious, why don't you use TurboGears? > > ( I'd rather have my fingernails pulled out with pliers than use > Ruby. ) While I like Python (and still use it), I prefer Ruby. Anyhow, I didn't re-join the list for a language war, just an announcement. :) -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From gilesb at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 07:52:22 2005 From: gilesb at gmail.com (Giles Bowkett) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:52:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] python killer apps Message-ID: <2d81dedb0511302252g610e14c5k5b1560fa38fcfbf2@mail.gmail.com> Twisted is pretty cool, too. -- Giles Bowkett = Giles Goat Boy http://www.gilesgoatboy.org/ From ben at groovie.org Thu Dec 1 08:42:51 2005 From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:42:51 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <0A72AD1B-B9EB-448E-84EF-C89B061A386C@groovie.org> Message-ID: <2FB6421F-13FB-4DB6-8FBC-222AC2CF214B@groovie.org> On Nov 30, 2005, at 9:19 PM, Neal Norwitz wrote: > This is an interesting thread given something I just read at work > this evening. There is a Java group that needed something that > allowed them to move faster than Java allowed. They chose rails over > a python solution. One reason was they claimed there were 15 python > web/templating solutions and 50 java ones. Rails was an easy choice > because there was no need to figure out which was the best. I > understand this argument cuts both ways (I've used both sides in the > past). I'm curious what people here think. > > Someone else mentioned that rails is the killer app for ruby that > python still doesn't have. Many would argue that Zope was the killer app, and you did indeed have many people that learned Python as a result of using Zope first. Of course, many of those people became less than enthusiastic about the bizarre learning curve amongst other Zope issues. Ruby people running Nitro (http://www.nitrohq.com/) are not exactly enthusiastic about the fact that everyone running to Ruby assumes that the *only* Ruby web framework is Rails, they're not going to announce that though as anyone moving to Rails will eventually learn Ruby.... :) For some reason managers like things were there's less brain-power to be exercised (there's only one framework, obviously ITS THE ONE WE SHOULD USE), and many beginner programmers like this since it makes it obvious where to begin. Python doesn't have this, and some think it should. I just don't know.... Anyways, its a fun discussion, maybe at next bay piggies we can all sit around at a bar and discuss it over some beers. Cheers, Ben From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 1 09:00:00 2005 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:00:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> Message-ID: > 9) I offered to transfer the domain. I refused offers to purchase the > domain by non-members. I put a tarball of the old website on my > strongspace.com account so that it could be retrieved. I gave the > information to Danny. Hi everyone, I have to apologize for not being very transparent about this to the Baypiggies group while this was going on. I didn't want to cause too much of a disturbance, but as Guido mentioned: > IMO it's better to be open about what's going on and who's doing > something about it than to confront with surprise mailing list rehosting > and a sudden disappearance of the website. so I guess I should be on the rack... er, I mean, the spot. This whole situation is a bad one, and I should have reacted earlier and quicker to it. For that, I'm sorry. What questions do people have? I'll try to answer what I can, although I still want to avoid enflaming discussion. I'll be happier when we can get back to discussing Python and programming. Best of wishes to you! From richbodo at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 09:10:17 2005 From: richbodo at gmail.com (Rich Bodo) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:10:17 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? - Rails vs. Turbogears. Message-ID: <86aa81650512010010k72ab102i5a3c5e41119577cf@mail.gmail.com> For any interested party, take the subject with a grain of salt, have a sense of humor, and let's discuss web frameworks in Python and Ruby. I thought I would share my experiences w.r.t. these two web frameworks and see how they compare to other peoples. These are mainly comments reflecting my first impressions. Here's where I am: I decided I need to learn to write scalable web apps. The reason I'm learning Rails is that I was instructed to do so by a respectable web programmer (who is working in a Perl shop). I ignored his advice for a few days and tried Maypole first (www.maypole.org), but it reminded me that I've never enjoyed reading Perl. I've learned enough about Ruby and Rails to write simple CRUD applications. In Ruby itself I've written a couple parsers and a small Rails app. I've written somewhate less Python - a few small programs. I've watched the TG Wiki-movie and read the turbotunes tutorial. Ruby: Ruby itself is interesting. Most people love to write very tersely, but it still looks clean to me. A typical experience reading ruby might be (from http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?AlexNetkachev): # execute a shell command, # go through result and create XML in one line :-) xp.string = `ls`.inject('') { |xml, file| xml << '' << file.chomp << '' } + '' Personally, I would never write something like that, but even though it is written as tersely as the author could manage, I can understand it. The iterator/code block syntax is probably not familiar to the Python programmer, but they are the first thing you learn in Ruby. Ruby seems to leave out every character possible, and somehow it's still more readable to me than Perl. Maybe *because* they leave out so much, you have to read "less". I think this minimalist aesthetic is a big part of Ruby's appeal. Ruby is also a curiosity. Until getting into the Programming Ruby book, I had never heard of some of the features that Ruby borrows from CLU and SmallTalk. There is a big novelty factor here. Rails: Rails, however, is where the aesthetic broke down for me. Mainly because I have always recoiled from the popular practice of mixing code and markup together that is so pervasive in the Rails community. I'm having a hard time accepting it. On the positive side, Rails is very complete, and has a huge and helpful community. So, once I get used to it, it will do what a framework is supposed to do: allow me to concentrate on my application. Python: The reason I'm on this list is that I have had good experiences reading Python, and that's a huge factor for me. I re-read code a lot. I can't help noticing that just about every library I download these days comes with working Python examples and without working Ruby examples. Yes, that will change and yes, that was an argument for Perl over Python in the past, but there is no getting around the fact that Python is an "established" and for many applications the most established language. This is a time saver and, rightly, a confidence builder. TurboGears: First thing I noticed is that, IMHO, the TG folk have a better website than the RoR folk (but they are both awesome for community porjects). This may seem off topic, but the website is what is going to drive new members to the community. The website says a lot about the momentum and longetivity of the project. Each time I return the docs and examples on the TG site keep improving. At least from what I have seen, the templates look a lot cleaner in TurboGears (o.k. there is a lot of JavaScript in there but that's forgiveable). It looks to a beginner that the libraries behind TG are more mature than the libraries behind Rails, so although TG is clearly less well established, they get a lot from Python for free. Overall: Both of these languages are relatively easy to learn and read. Both of these frameworks are completely irresistable. I feel I have to learn both. As soon as I master RoR, I can't wait to get into TurboGears. -Rich http://rbodo.blogspot.com From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Dec 1 09:33:17 2005 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:33:17 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2005, at 12:00 AM, Danny Yoo wrote: > so I guess I should be on the rack... er, I mean, the spot. It's all handled now, so it's all good (or will be fully good when the transfer is finalized). -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Dec 1 11:46:42 2005 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 02:46:42 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? - Rails vs. Turbogears. In-Reply-To: <86aa81650512010010k72ab102i5a3c5e41119577cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <86aa81650512010010k72ab102i5a3c5e41119577cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <29DCEC74-A98B-44C0-9707-6D5EF752A8E9@deirdre.net> On Dec 1, 2005, at 12:10 AM, Rich Bodo wrote: > Ruby: > > Ruby itself is interesting. Most people love to write very tersely, > but it still looks clean to me. A lot of Ruby is very, very readable. I especially like why's approach in this chapter: http://www.poignantguide.net/ruby/chapter-3.html > Personally, I would never write something like that, but even though > it is written as tersely as the author could manage, I can understand > it. The iterator/code block syntax is probably not familiar to the > Python programmer, but they are the first thing you learn in Ruby. One of the examples from the above chapter: ['toast', 'cheese', 'wine'].each { |food| print food.capitalize } > Rails: > > Rails, however, is where the aesthetic broke down for me. Mainly > because I have always recoiled from the popular practice of mixing > code and markup together that is so pervasive in the Rails community. > I'm having a hard time accepting it. This is one of the things many Rails people (myself included) like about Rails. Whereas the Python approach, to cope with the issue of indentation, has veered more toward templating, which I like less. I genuinely think it's one of those personal taste things. For example, before I found Rails, I worked in PHP, because I found it more to my liking than doing web work in Python (though I've done some of that, too). Rails is way cleaner to me than PHP. > TurboGears: > > First thing I noticed is that, IMHO, the TG folk have a better website > than the RoR folk (but they are both awesome for community porjects). Interestingly, both are hosted by TextDrive, though in different data centers. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From charney at charneyday.com Thu Dec 1 19:52:19 2005 From: charney at charneyday.com (Reg. Charney) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> Message-ID: Deirdre, I want to thank you for all that you have done for the group. I have enjoyed it immensely. I am also sorry about the site corruption and the mis-attribution. I have had that happen to me and it is not fun :-(! As long as people like yourself continue to contribute to others, the Open Source community will grow, mature and prosper. As it does so, all of us benefit. Again, thanks. Reg. Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > The Baypiggies.net domain is moving. I'll be updating the DNS and > transferring the domain. > > Until the DNS finishes propagating, it can be reached here: http:// > baypiggies.python-hosted.com > > For historical interest, here are the events that transpired: > > 0) I founded the group in 1999. Like Guido, I really relish that > crowded group we had one night at the CoffeeNet. That was great. > > 1) I turned over the keys to the web site. > > 2) When I got the web standards bug and re-did the web site in 2004, > turning it over with the understanding that WEB STANDARDS WOULD BE > FOLLOWED. > > 3) During a job interview a few months ago, I was dissed for the non- > standard markup on the BayPiggies page, because my name was on it and > I was interviewing for a web design position. Isn't that special? I > didn't get the job. I was pissed off, thought I sent a note at the > time, but I can't find it in my outbox. > > 4) In early November, I bumped up my hosting plan at TextDrive, which > would allow for Django or TurboGears to be used for the site (or > pretty much anything else). I wrote the four people (Wes, Tony, Aahz, > and Danny) to see if they were okay with moving it. Aahz wanted to > change the site using emacs, didn't want anything fancy -- but this > wouldn't work because I could only offer an sftp-only account. > > 5) I looked at the markup and freaked (45 validation errors for an > index page, including markup that was NEVER valid). I wrote a note > giving them 48 hours to fix it (which I would have extended HAD > ANYONE BOTHERED TO EMAIL AND ASK). > > 6) I checked the front page on the w3's validator, saw the same > number of email errors, and took the site down and locked out the > four logins. > > 7) Danny contacted me offlist. I told him more (than I'm going to > write here) about what's happened, why I left BayPiggies, and why in > particular, there are some members (Aahz in particular) whom I'd > never care to see again. > > 8) I was offered a job, but I'd have to move out of the bay area, > meaning my ability to host the domain and/or DNS under the current > setup is going away entirely (it's currently hosted from my living > room). All my existing domains will be hosted on my hosting account, > which typically hasn't been the case in the past. > > 9) I offered to transfer the domain. I refused offers to purchase the > domain by non-members. I put a tarball of the old website on my > strongspace.com account so that it could be retrieved. I gave the > information to Danny. > > 10) It's now in the process of being transferred. > > And Giles, yes, I make my living doing Ruby development (specifically > Ruby on Rails), but that's not really why this happened.... > > From aleax at google.com Thu Dec 1 20:04:31 2005 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:04:31 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? - Rails vs. Turbogears. In-Reply-To: <29DCEC74-A98B-44C0-9707-6D5EF752A8E9@deirdre.net> References: <86aa81650512010010k72ab102i5a3c5e41119577cf@mail.gmail.com> <29DCEC74-A98B-44C0-9707-6D5EF752A8E9@deirdre.net> Message-ID: <55dc209b0512011104w78a190ceh301bf6c186e4164c@mail.google.com> On 12/1/05, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: ... > One of the examples from the above chapter: > > ['toast', 'cheese', 'wine'].each { |food| print food.capitalize } Sure, but the Python style of coding this: for food in 'toast','cheese','wine': print food.capitalize() is hardly problematic, either. I am by now convinced that in terms of features in the languages proper (and accompanying standard libraries) there's not much in it either way. I don't know enough details about Rails on one side, versus (say) TurboGears OR Django on the other, and haven't done enough work recently in this specific area, to be able to give sound advice; I do know I'd strongly suggest Python for, say, any networking application area where Twisted might help (I've used a huge variety of asynchronous programming approaches, and Twisted's most definitely the best), or any subset of Numeric, scipy and gmpy, or Mac-specific application programming (with PyObjC), and so on. In other words, choosing on the basis of your evaluation of specific frameworks/extensions you could use, and/or other considerations yet (availability of good books, how much you like interacting with either community, job prospects, etc, etc) -- that's how close I believe the two (excellent) languages are, technically, right now (studiously trying to avoid any bias due to the possibility that Python adopters might buy my books while Ruby ones won't...;-). Alex From jimmy at retzlaff.com Thu Dec 1 21:12:50 2005 From: jimmy at retzlaff.com (Jimmy Retzlaff) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:12:50 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? - Rails vs.Turbogears. Message-ID: Alex Martelli wrote: > On 12/1/05, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > ... > > One of the examples from the above chapter: > > > > ['toast', 'cheese', 'wine'].each { |food| print food.capitalize } > > Sure, but the Python style of coding this: > > for food in 'toast','cheese','wine': print food.capitalize() That's exactly the kind of thing that makes Python my language of choice... so many constructs allow you to simply read the text and the English meaning is very close to what you are trying to do. In the above example, it would be nice if "capitalize" were "capitalized" and there could be an "each" dropped in there, but it's close enough to English that nitpicking about grammar is all that remains. This has always been my hang-up with Smalltalk and now Ruby, the Ruby version reads like a robot in an old science fiction movie. But it's clear that many people prefer to think of the constructs as they are presented in Ruby rather than the English. I think both of these languages are good enough that it comes down to which one fits your way of thinking better so that you can spend more time thinking about the problem domain rather than the language - for me that's certainly Python. Jimmy From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Dec 1 21:18:31 2005 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:18:31 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? - Rails vs.Turbogears. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5333B391-E095-4A31-AC74-0023310F59B4@deirdre.net> On Dec 1, 2005, at 12:12 PM, Jimmy Retzlaff wrote: > I think both of these languages are good enough that it comes down to > which one fits your way of thinking better so that you can spend more > time thinking about the problem domain rather than the language - > for me > that's certainly Python. Exactly. For me, it's Ruby, though before I knew Ruby, Python was much closer than any other language out there. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From aleax at google.com Thu Dec 1 21:52:50 2005 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:52:50 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? - Rails vs.Turbogears. In-Reply-To: <5333B391-E095-4A31-AC74-0023310F59B4@deirdre.net> References: <5333B391-E095-4A31-AC74-0023310F59B4@deirdre.net> Message-ID: <55dc209b0512011252k59e917d9k2ffe3e1bd9ae0635@mail.google.com> On 12/1/05, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > On Dec 1, 2005, at 12:12 PM, Jimmy Retzlaff wrote: > > > I think both of these languages are good enough that it comes down to > > which one fits your way of thinking better so that you can spend more > > time thinking about the problem domain rather than the language - > > for me > > that's certainly Python. > > Exactly. For me, it's Ruby, though before I knew Ruby, Python was > much closer than any other language out there. ...and for me, it's close to a tie (of course, I know Python much better, but I'm trying to factor out "familiarity", as that would soon change if I were to use Ruby heavily for a month or two): some Ruby things (such as calling methods w/o parentheses) irk me strongly (and familiarity won't change that -- I hated this just as much in other languages allowing such omission of parentheses, such as Basic and Perl, even when I used them heavily), but then I also still dislike some Python things no matter how perfectly I know them (namely, parentheses being mandatory in the header of a function w/o arguments BUT forbidden in the header of a class w/o bases -- heavy syntactic overloading of parentheses and commas -- mandatory colons at end of head clauses of composite statements)... Alex From dekonerding at lbl.gov Thu Dec 1 22:16:01 2005 From: dekonerding at lbl.gov (David E. Konerding) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:16:01 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? - Rails vs.Turbogears. In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0512011252k59e917d9k2ffe3e1bd9ae0635@mail.google.com> References: <5333B391-E095-4A31-AC74-0023310F59B4@deirdre.net> <55dc209b0512011252k59e917d9k2ffe3e1bd9ae0635@mail.google.com> Message-ID: <438F6811.1080802@lbl.gov> Alex Martelli wrote: > >...and for me, it's close to a tie (of course, I know Python much >better, but I'm trying to factor out "familiarity", as that would soon >change if I were to use Ruby heavily for a month or two): some Ruby >things (such as calling methods w/o parentheses) irk me strongly (and >familiarity won't change that -- I hated this just as much in other >languages allowing such omission of parentheses, such as Basic and >Perl, even when I used them heavily), but then I also still dislike >some Python things no matter how perfectly I know them (namely, >parentheses being mandatory in the header of a function w/o arguments >BUT forbidden in the header of a class w/o bases -- heavy syntactic >overloading of parentheses and commas -- mandatory colons at end of >head clauses of composite statements)... > > It's been my experience lately that more and more languages are starting to look a lot like Python. Or rather, there is a semi-consensus on syntax which is shared among several dynamic and statically typed languages, with obvious commonalities in defining methods, signatures, complex data types, etc, and Python is established within that consensus. Most days, I can move between Java, C++, C# and Python without having to think too hard (mainly because we don't use any syntax features which are unique to any of the languages). I call this type of programming style "C without pointer crap". I'm pretty happy with Python syntax, although I think there are too many languages features added recently (list comprehensions and directors) which give me pause because they don't jibe with the basic philosophy of readable code and principle of least-surprise. Perhaps in a few more years somebody will converge all the desireable features of this language subset into a new language which "gets it right from the beginning" (functionally oriented, dynamically typed but with conventions to allow programmers to specify static behavior, self-consistent standard library and we can all go back to being productive programmers rather than arguing over which language is best :-) Dave From sampenrose at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 22:33:36 2005 From: sampenrose at gmail.com (Sam Penrose) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 13:33:36 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? - Rails vs.Turbogears. In-Reply-To: <438F6811.1080802@lbl.gov> References: <5333B391-E095-4A31-AC74-0023310F59B4@deirdre.net> <55dc209b0512011252k59e917d9k2ffe3e1bd9ae0635@mail.google.com> <438F6811.1080802@lbl.gov> Message-ID: <7e5707da0512011333w3f2d795fybf3724405d157321@mail.gmail.com> See also: http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=printer_friendly&pid=247&page=1 >From a Pythonista, IIRC. > Perhaps in a few more years somebody will converge all the desireable > features of this language subset into a new language which "gets it > right from the beginning" (functionally oriented, dynamically typed but > with conventions to allow programmers to specify static behavior, > self-consistent standard library > and we can all go back to being productive programmers rather than > arguing over which language is best :-) > > Dave From dekonerding at lbl.gov Thu Dec 1 23:02:00 2005 From: dekonerding at lbl.gov (David E. Konerding) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 14:02:00 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? - Rails vs.Turbogears. In-Reply-To: <438F6811.1080802@lbl.gov> References: <5333B391-E095-4A31-AC74-0023310F59B4@deirdre.net> <55dc209b0512011252k59e917d9k2ffe3e1bd9ae0635@mail.google.com> <438F6811.1080802@lbl.gov> Message-ID: <438F72D8.2030908@lbl.gov> David E. Konerding wrote: > Perhaps in a few more years somebody will converge all the desireable > >features of this language subset into a new language which "gets it >right from the beginning" (functionally oriented, dynamically typed but >with conventions to allow programmers to specify static behavior, >self-consistent standard library >and we can all go back to being productive programmers rather than >arguing over which language is best :-) > > A few addendums to this: 1) when I recently read the C# introduction, I get very, very scared, since I found myself having a very hard time taking issue with any of their design decisions wrt to OO. I assuaged my fear by realizing C# is a static language (albeit one with a complete parser and compiler built in) 2) after playing with IronPython and the .NET API for a while I found myself preferring the .NET API for achieveing pretty much everythign in the CPython standard library (and enjoying the raw speed of the CLR compared to the CPython VM). I am now stuck in a very difficult state: I have a great deal of legacy C code that interfaces with the CPython interpreter and I'd have to rewrite all the interfaces, and I have lots of code that uses parts of the standard CPython library but which will probably not be implemented in IronPython. It makes me wonder; if IronPython covered the CPython standard library completely, wrapped the CPython extension system so that my existing _whatever.so's and _whatever.dlls could be used without recompilation, and Mono implemented enough of the .NET library that all my existing code continued to work fine, what would I need CPython for? Dave From jimmy at retzlaff.com Fri Dec 2 00:31:24 2005 From: jimmy at retzlaff.com (Jimmy Retzlaff) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:31:24 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread?- Rails vs.Turbogears. Message-ID: David E. Konerding wrote: > 1) when I recently read the C# introduction, I get very, very scared, > since I found myself having a very hard time taking issue with any of > their design decisions wrt to OO. I assuaged my fear by realizing C# is > a static language (albeit one with a complete parser and compiler built > in) Why would liking features in a language cause you to feel scared? I can certainly understand fear induced by static typing. :) > 2) after playing with IronPython and the .NET API for a while I found > myself preferring the .NET API for achieveing pretty much everythign in > the CPython standard library (and enjoying the raw speed of the CLR > compared to the CPython VM). I am now stuck in a very difficult state: > I have a great deal of legacy C code that interfaces with the CPython > interpreter and I'd have to rewrite all the interfaces, and I have lots > of code that uses parts of the standard CPython library but which will > probably not be implemented in IronPython. > > It makes me wonder; if IronPython covered the CPython standard library > completely, wrapped the CPython extension system so that > my existing _whatever.so's and _whatever.dlls could be used without > recompilation, and Mono implemented enough of the .NET library that all > my existing code continued to work fine, what would I need CPython for? You might want to take a look at Python for .NET at http://www.zope.org/Members/Brian/PythonNet. I recently had a client that insisted the config files for my Python application use the same encryption for passwords that all their C# code uses. They gave me their C# code which depends completely on the .NET crypto libraries and I started looking for ways to build a bridge. I'm glad I found Python for .NET. I basically took their code, removed type declarations and semicolons and I was done. Here are a few lines from the C# code: ICryptoTransform encryptor = new RijndaelManaged().CreateEncryptor(key, IV); MemoryStream msEncrypt = new MemoryStream(); CryptoStream csEncrypt = new CryptoStream(msEncrypt, encryptor, CryptoStreamMode.Write); and the analogous lines in Python: encryptor = RijndaelManaged().CreateEncryptor(key, IV) msEncrypt = MemoryStream() csEncrypt = CryptoStream(msEncrypt, encryptor, CryptoStreamMode.Write) You don't get Python hosted within the CLR, so you don't get the same language interoperability among other things, but for library access it works beautifully. And you can still use your own extensions, Numeric, PIL, etc. Jimmy From jayaraj at kosan.com Fri Dec 2 00:48:06 2005 From: jayaraj at kosan.com (Sebastian Jayaraj) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:48:06 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Application Servers In-Reply-To: <438F72D8.2030908@lbl.gov> References: <5333B391-E095-4A31-AC74-0023310F59B4@deirdre.net> <55dc209b0512011252k59e917d9k2ffe3e1bd9ae0635@mail.google.com> <438F6811.1080802@lbl.gov> <438F72D8.2030908@lbl.gov> Message-ID: <438F8BB6.1000904@kosan.com> Hello, With all these emails concerning the language wars one of the things that caught my attention was Turbogears as an application framework. Can anyone who has worked with python app servers make some recommendations as to how these compare - TurboGears, CherryPy, WebWare, Twisted, Zope My needs 1. Security & Session mgmt 2. Easy database acccess/mgmt 3. ability to integrate with third party programs (C, Java) 4. ability to integrate with custom Python libraries 5. XML-RPC support 6. Active development and community support 7. Robust enough for a production environment 8. Rapid development capability (unlike the steep curve one encounters with Zope) Incase you have come across anything else that worked well please feel free to let me know. Thank you for you inputs! regards Sebastian From deirdre at deirdre.net Fri Dec 2 01:15:03 2005 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:15:03 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Application Servers In-Reply-To: <438F8BB6.1000904@kosan.com> References: <5333B391-E095-4A31-AC74-0023310F59B4@deirdre.net> <55dc209b0512011252k59e917d9k2ffe3e1bd9ae0635@mail.google.com> <438F6811.1080802@lbl.gov> <438F72D8.2030908@lbl.gov> <438F8BB6.1000904@kosan.com> Message-ID: <43728DC0-C982-49EA-8622-1EA2AF78B608@deirdre.net> On Dec 1, 2005, at 3:48 PM, Sebastian Jayaraj wrote: > Hello, > > With all these emails concerning the language wars one of the things > that caught my attention was Turbogears as an application > framework. Can > anyone who has worked with python app servers make some > recommendations > as to how these compare - TurboGears, CherryPy, WebWare, Twisted, Zope TurboGears is built on top of CherryPy. Oh, and you forgot Django. :) -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From ben at groovie.org Fri Dec 2 01:49:42 2005 From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:49:42 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Application Servers In-Reply-To: <438F8BB6.1000904@kosan.com> References: <5333B391-E095-4A31-AC74-0023310F59B4@deirdre.net> <55dc209b0512011252k59e917d9k2ffe3e1bd9ae0635@mail.google.com> <438F6811.1080802@lbl.gov> <438F72D8.2030908@lbl.gov> <438F8BB6.1000904@kosan.com> Message-ID: <23AFC41B-260A-46C5-A096-1274BD7BB97F@groovie.org> On Dec 1, 2005, at 3:48 PM, Sebastian Jayaraj wrote: > With all these emails concerning the language wars one of the things > that caught my attention was Turbogears as an application > framework. Can > anyone who has worked with python app servers make some > recommendations > as to how these compare - TurboGears, CherryPy, WebWare, Twisted, Zope You'd prolly want to separate those more first, in this case by how many decisions were just made for you. Full-stack framework (Everything decided, from templating, ORM, to layout style): - TurboGears - Django Template languages: - Myghty - Cheetah - ZPT - Kid (used in TurboGears) (prolly more I missed) "Controller" framework in MVC: - CherryPy (used in TurboGears) - Myghty - Webware - Aquarium - Quoxiote ORM (Object Relational Mapper): - SQLObject (well established, used in TurboGears) - PyDO - Durus (I think I spelled that right) - SQLAlchemy (aiming to be the Hibernate of the Python world, still beta software) TurboGears uses the CherryPy session object, Django has its own template language, session stuff, and ORM. There's also a Django addon to support ZPT. > My needs > 1. Security & Session mgmt > 2. Easy database acccess/mgmt > 3. ability to integrate with third party programs (C, Java) > 4. ability to integrate with custom Python libraries > 5. XML-RPC support > 6. Active development and community support > 7. Robust enough for a production environment > 8. Rapid development capability (unlike the steep curve one encounters > with Zope) > > Incase you have come across anything else that worked well please feel > free to let me know. Some of these tools are more tailored for certain environments. Django comes out of box with a very slick admin interface for your database models, thats production ready for use by staff. Obviously that comes with the assumption that your database is mainly content management of some sort and you have a 'staff' to use it. Django also has batches of 'generic views' which makes a lot of common object viewing stuff quite easy and quick. TurboGears also now has a database model browser, sort of like Django's and development work on both projects is proceeding rather quickly. I personally use Myghty, and our corporate website (parachute.com) has been running Myghty for close to a year now. Myghty makes very few decisions for you, so its expected that you know what you want (MVC? page-driven? etc.). Myghty is probably one of the most documented Python web frameworks and template languages I've come across, though Django and TurboGears are making great strides in this area as well. I mention more things about Myghty on my blog at www.groovie.org. If you want the decisions made for you on how to solve the problems you mentioned, I'd suggest Django or TurboGears as they both have everything on your list of needs. Though I'm not sure how robust they are as they're both quite 'new', while the Django people will always point to sites 'using Django' that have been up for 2 years, the codebase has undergone so much development lately that those sites haven't actually been running the code you'd be installing. Hope that helps, Ben From richardk at adax.com Fri Dec 2 21:04:15 2005 From: richardk at adax.com (Richard Knowles) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 12:04:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Application Servers In-Reply-To: <43728DC0-C982-49EA-8622-1EA2AF78B608@deirdre.net> Message-ID: Hi, This discussion of Application Servers leads me to ask about an issue I am looking into. We have a very simple internal webpage mostly for people to download company documents(on Apache). Updating it consists of placing a new file in the correct directory, and modifying the HTML code directly with good old vi. I think this could be a job for a content management server, especially if it can let the HTML-illiterate place a document on the server in a controlled-access way. Is there something relatively simple and Pythonic using mod_python for example? I myself know very little about the topic of content-management. > > as to how these compare - TurboGears, CherryPy, WebWare, Twisted, Zope -- Richard Knowles From jayaraj at kosan.com Fri Dec 2 21:30:00 2005 From: jayaraj at kosan.com (Sebastian Jayaraj) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 12:30:00 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Application Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4390AEC8.8080508@kosan.com> Richard, We have had very good success with Plone. Relatively simple to set up and easy to teach users. Also check out its inbuilt site search capability that index documents like PDF, word, etc. http://plone.org/ - Sebastian Richard Knowles wrote: >Hi, > >This discussion of Application Servers leads me to ask about an issue I >am looking into. We have a very simple internal webpage mostly for people >to download company documents(on Apache). Updating it consists of placing >a new file in the correct directory, and modifying the HTML code directly with good >old vi. I think this could be a job for a content management server, >especially if it can let the HTML-illiterate place a document on the >server in a controlled-access way. > >Is there something relatively simple and Pythonic using mod_python for >example? I myself know very little about the topic of content-management. > > > > >>>as to how these compare - TurboGears, CherryPy, WebWare, Twisted, Zope >>> >>> > > > From gilesb at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 21:32:41 2005 From: gilesb at gmail.com (Giles Bowkett) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:32:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Application Servers In-Reply-To: References: <43728DC0-C982-49EA-8622-1EA2AF78B608@deirdre.net> Message-ID: <2d81dedb0512021232h66a70299mdc37d5b46f69f3bd@mail.gmail.com> I think this sounds like a job for Zope, but I couldn't really say for sure. I've actually written a bunch of systems that match this profile, and basically all you need is a template and some string processing. Python's a good choice for that. There definitely are a bunch of existing relevant frameworks, although I personally couldn't say which one would be best for you, but with such a simple task, all you really need to use is regular expressions and string variable substitution. (Might be more fun to do it in Zope, though, and more scalable too.) On 12/2/05, Richard Knowles wrote: > > Hi, > > This discussion of Application Servers leads me to ask about an issue I > am looking into. We have a very simple internal webpage mostly for people > to download company documents(on Apache). Updating it consists of placing > a new file in the correct directory, and modifying the HTML code directly with good > old vi. I think this could be a job for a content management server, > especially if it can let the HTML-illiterate place a document on the > server in a controlled-access way. > > Is there something relatively simple and Pythonic using mod_python for > example? I myself know very little about the topic of content-management. > > > > > as to how these compare - TurboGears, CherryPy, WebWare, Twisted, Zope > > -- > > Richard Knowles > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Giles Bowkett = Giles Goat Boy http://www.gilesgoatboy.org/ From whit at kalistra.com Fri Dec 2 21:32:59 2005 From: whit at kalistra.com (whit morriss) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:32:59 -0600 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Application Servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4390AF7B.5060906@kalistra.com> Richard Knowles wrote: >Hi, > >This discussion of Application Servers leads me to ask about an issue I >am looking into. We have a very simple internal webpage mostly for people >to download company documents(on Apache). Updating it consists of placing >a new file in the correct directory, and modifying the HTML code directly with good >old vi. I think this could be a job for a content management server, >especially if it can let the HTML-illiterate place a document on the >server in a controlled-access way. > >Is there something relatively simple and Pythonic using mod_python for >example? I myself know very little about the topic of content-management. > > > > >>>as to how these compare - TurboGears, CherryPy, WebWare, Twisted, Zope >>> >>> > > > well, usually content-management balloons out to cover alot beyond simply giving mortal the ability to make web pages (workflow, security, versioning, groupware, etc). In mod_python, you could build something rather simple and custom to your needs with Django or TG. someday maybe plone will run in mod_python, but I wouldn't hold your breath. -w -w -- | david "whit" morriss | | contact :: http://public.xdi.org/=whit "If you don't know where you are, you don't know anything at all" Dr. Edgar Spencer, Ph.D., 1995 "I like to write code like other ppl like to tune their cars or 10kW hifi equipment..." Christian Heimes, 2004 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: whit.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20051202/57c127ca/whit.vcf From deirdre at deirdre.net Sat Dec 3 00:16:23 2005 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:16:23 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Well.... (DNS) Message-ID: <0DC230F5-9F93-498E-89B4-D16E410107D1@deirdre.net> It seems that the DNS was hosted by register.com DNS servers that weren't actually serving DNS. Gah. So, despite having gleefully typed in changes, the old info was being served. Rick and I were up late fixing all the DNS issues prior to the registrant transfer. Some people are seeing the new location for baypiggies, some are hitting deirdre.org and getting a forced redirect to the new site from my apache server, some are getting deirdre.org (when the domain info isn't coming in with the request correctly). In other words, it's not all there yet, but it will be soooooon. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From jennyw at dangerousideas.com Sat Dec 3 02:01:37 2005 From: jennyw at dangerousideas.com (jennyw) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:01:37 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Application Servers In-Reply-To: <4390AEC8.8080508@kosan.com> References: <4390AEC8.8080508@kosan.com> Message-ID: <4390EE71.5040908@dangerousideas.com> Sebastian Jayaraj wrote: >We have had very good success with Plone. Relatively simple to set up >and easy to teach users. Also check out its inbuilt site search >capability that index documents like PDF, word, etc. > >http://plone.org/ > I don't think you could get Plone to run with mod_python -- it's a Zope application. It's also not the lightest-weight CMS out there. That said, it works great when you use it appropriately (I've set it up for a pretty heavily visited Web site), and it puts most things that call themselves CMSes to shame. However ... it's only a breeze to setup and teach users if you accept the defaults or need only simple changes. They've done a great job with the UI, so for an intranet you might well be satisfied with changes you can make in CSS or through settings in the ZMI. However, if you need to do something more significant, you'll have a pretty steep learning curve (unless you're already familiar with Zope). If you find yourself in that situation, I'd suggest buying one of the books on Plone (I like Andy McKay's book; I have a colleague who J. Cameron Cooper's book). Jen From ben at groovie.org Sat Dec 3 02:17:26 2005 From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:17:26 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Application Servers In-Reply-To: <4390EE71.5040908@dangerousideas.com> References: <4390AEC8.8080508@kosan.com> <4390EE71.5040908@dangerousideas.com> Message-ID: <6A29CEB1-261B-48A7-A2C4-FD1BCFC0BD8B@groovie.org> On Dec 2, 2005, at 5:01 PM, jennyw wrote: > Sebastian Jayaraj wrote: > >> We have had very good success with Plone. Relatively simple to set up >> and easy to teach users. Also check out its inbuilt site search >> capability that index documents like PDF, word, etc. >> >> http://plone.org/ > I don't think you could get Plone to run with mod_python -- it's a > Zope > application. It's also not the lightest-weight CMS out there. That > said, it works great when you use it appropriately (I've set it up > for a > pretty heavily visited Web site), and it puts most things that call > themselves CMSes to shame. > > However ... it's only a breeze to setup and teach users if you accept > the defaults or need only simple changes. They've done a great job > with > the UI, so for an intranet you might well be satisfied with changes > you > can make in CSS or through settings in the ZMI. However, if you > need to > do something more significant, you'll have a pretty steep learning > curve > (unless you're already familiar with Zope). If you find yourself in > that situation, I'd suggest buying one of the books on Plone (I like > Andy McKay's book; I have a colleague who J. Cameron Cooper's book). I'm inclined to agree with everything Jen said, I've also put Plone up for a moderately high traffic site. The performance out of box was very sluggish, but with a Squid caching server in front had no problems of course. Django was built for CMS's, and is pretty good for a lighter weight custom CMS, expect less functionality than Plone though (No uploading content via webdav/ftp). - Ben From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Sat Dec 3 02:36:45 2005 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:36:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Well.... (DNS) In-Reply-To: <0DC230F5-9F93-498E-89B4-D16E410107D1@deirdre.net> Message-ID: > It seems that the DNS was hosted by register.com DNS servers that > weren't actually serving DNS. Gah. So, despite having gleefully typed in > changes, the old info was being served. > > Rick and I were up late fixing all the DNS issues prior to the > registrant transfer. Some people are seeing the new location for > baypiggies, some are hitting deirdre.org and getting a forced redirect > to the new site from my apache server, some are getting deirdre.org > (when the domain info isn't coming in with the request correctly). Hi Deirdre, Don't worry about it. Thanks for helping to fix this right! From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sun Dec 4 05:47:12 2005 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 20:47:12 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Be aware that the BayPIGgies list is being publicly mirrored Message-ID: Not sure people are aware of this (I wasn't), but I just found out all the list messages since Apr 2005 are archived and publicly viewable at: http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.org.baypiggies/ Something you might like to keep in mind. Regards, Stephen From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Dec 5 01:09:44 2005 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 16:09:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: People may be interested in this: http://randomhacks.net/articles/2005/12/03/why-ruby-is-an-acceptable-lisp It has some Python comparisons also. -Mike From kdart at kdart.com Mon Dec 5 12:46:06 2005 From: kdart at kdart.com (Keith Dart) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 03:46:06 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> Message-ID: <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:00:00 -0800 (PST) Danny Yoo wrote: > I have to apologize for not being very transparent about this to the > Baypiggies group while this was going on. I didn't want to cause too > much of a disturbance, Hey, the new domain now has proper reverse-DNS, and my MTA (Courier) no longer rejects it. So, now I can read the list again. For me that is a big improvement. ;-) The new site looks very nice. BTW, I got a free account on Zettai http://www.zettai.net/ to host pyNMS (open source project). They use Zope + Plone. I still can't figure it out... I can't get my content to show up. Really, every time I try to use Zope it is just a frustrating experience. Python needs another "killer app". Speaking of web frameworks, anyone want to work on another one that I started? It's for Python, of course. -- -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Keith Dart public key: ID: F3D288E4 ===================================================================== From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Dec 5 15:10:18 2005 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 06:10:18 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: December 8, 7:30pm (IronPort) Message-ID: <20051205141018.GA24405@panix.com> The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, December 8 at 7:30pm at Ironport. JJ will demonstrate GCipher, a simple application that shows how to combine Glade/PyGTK, the async module, and a plugin architecture. BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. Advance notice: We need speakers for January and later. Please send e-mail to baypiggies at baypiggies.net if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to give a presentation). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire yourself a competent schmuck." --USENET schmuck (aka Robert Kern) From whit at kalistra.com Mon Dec 5 16:01:48 2005 From: whit at kalistra.com (whit morriss) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 09:01:48 -0600 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies.net is moving In-Reply-To: <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> Message-ID: <4394565C.2000007@kalistra.com> Keith Dart wrote: >On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:00:00 -0800 (PST) >Danny Yoo wrote: > > > >>I have to apologize for not being very transparent about this to the >>Baypiggies group while this was going on. I didn't want to cause too >>much of a disturbance, >> >> > >Hey, the new domain now has proper reverse-DNS, and my MTA (Courier) no >longer rejects it. So, now I can read the list again. For me that is a >big improvement. ;-) > >The new site looks very nice. > >BTW, I got a free account on Zettai http://www.zettai.net/ to host >pyNMS (open source project). They use Zope + Plone. I still can't figure >it out... I can't get my content to show up. Really, every time I try >to use Zope it is just a frustrating experience. Python needs another >"killer app". > > > before you reinvent the wheel, hollar. there are at least 3 members of the plone dev team on this list. >Speaking of web frameworks, anyone want to work on another one that I >started? It's for Python, of course. > > > > oops...too late. but please elaborate. :) -w -- | david "whit" morriss | | contact :: http://public.xdi.org/=whit "If you don't know where you are, you don't know anything at all" Dr. Edgar Spencer, Ph.D., 1995 "I like to write code like other ppl like to tune their cars or 10kW hifi equipment..." Christian Heimes, 2004 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: whit.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20051205/abe33372/whit.vcf From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Mon Dec 5 17:34:42 2005 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:34:42 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Zope + Plone In-Reply-To: <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> Message-ID: > The new site looks very nice. > > BTW, I got a free account on Zettai http://www.zettai.net/ to host > pyNMS (open source project). They use Zope + Plone. I still can't figure > it out... I can't get my content to show up. Really, every time I try > to use Zope it is just a frustrating experience. Python needs another > "killer app". Hey buddy, I've also have acquired a free account on zettai for the new home for MindRetrieve (open source personal search engine). Have it for a few weeks and haven't figure out how to set it up yet :P I actually want to put some interactive program there. Hopefully it won't be too far off :) Wai Yip From mrbmahoney at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 18:37:48 2005 From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:37:48 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Dec 5, 6 pm Message-ID: <5538c19b0512050937o2160eff9p1ded334b1f23f25f@mail.gmail.com> I can coordinate dinner at Crepes du Monde in the Bayhill Shopping Center. Several blocks from the IronPort meeting location. It has a web site http://www.lacreperiedumonde.com and a map http://www.lacreperiedumonde.com/img/mapimage.gif Crepes du Monde 815 Cherry Avenue Suite 16 San Bruno. CA 94066 Phone: 650 589-3778 I've made reservations for 8+ people under "Mahoney" for 6pm Thursday. If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I confirm the headcount. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20051205/ade4951a/attachment.htm From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Mon Dec 5 19:01:53 2005 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:01:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: December 8, 7:30pm (IronPort) In-Reply-To: <20051205141018.GA24405@panix.com> Message-ID: > Advance notice: We need speakers for January and later. Please send > e-mail to baypiggies at baypiggies.net if you want to suggest an agenda (or > volunteer to give a presentation). Correction: that email address should be 'baypiggies at python.org'. From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Dec 5 19:05:04 2005 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:05:04 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: December 8, 7:30pm (IronPort) In-Reply-To: References: <20051205141018.GA24405@panix.com> Message-ID: <20051205180504.GA29237@panix.com> >> Advance notice: We need speakers for January and later. Please send >> e-mail to baypiggies at baypiggies.net if you want to suggest an agenda (or >> volunteer to give a presentation). > > Correction: that email address should be 'baypiggies at python.org'. Futz. Thanks. Got it correct other places, but missed that one. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire yourself a competent schmuck." --USENET schmuck (aka Robert Kern) From jon at coral8.com Mon Dec 5 19:15:23 2005 From: jon at coral8.com (Jon Rosen) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:15:23 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner reservations Message-ID: <439483BB.6060109@coral8.com> Please count me in for dinner at Crepes Du Monde. Jon Rosen Director, Software Testing and Support Coral8, Inc. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- "The difference between theory and reality is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality, but in reality, there is." - Anonymous From mrbmahoney at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 19:24:47 2005 From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:24:47 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Date correction - Dec 8, 6 pm Message-ID: <5538c19b0512051024l62ca313bsb76c7b76f06e2770@mail.gmail.com> Same message, just correcting the subject line date to Dec 8, the actual meeting date. I can coordinate dinner at Crepes du Monde in the Bayhill Shopping Center. Several blocks from the IronPort meeting location. It has a web site http://www.lacreperiedumonde.com and a map http://www.lacreperiedumonde.com/img/mapimage.gif Crepes du Monde 815 Cherry Avenue Suite 16 San Bruno. CA 94066 Phone: 650 589-3778 I've made reservations for 8+ people under "Mahoney" for 6pm Thursday. If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I confirm the headcount. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20051205/ccd7b65f/attachment.html From cuba at iotacenter.org Mon Dec 5 19:23:55 2005 From: cuba at iotacenter.org (Larry Cuba) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:23:55 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Zope + Plone In-Reply-To: References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20051205101307.042f7ec0@mail.well.com> Hi folks, I'm running a site (with the help of a really sharp intern) on plone/zope on python-hosting.com He spent a lot of time figuring out how it all works, because, as he reports, all the books and documentation about plone are wrong. once up and running, though, my crew of unskilled interns were able to publish an enormous amount of material on our site in a relatively short time. so plone is working well for us. the administration side had a slow learning curve, but the user side was picked up and put into practice immediately. check it out: www.iotacenter.org Larry C. At 08:34 AM 12/5/2005, you wrote: >> The new site looks very nice. >> >> BTW, I got a free account on Zettai http://www.zettai.net/ to host >> pyNMS (open source project). They use Zope + Plone. I still can't figure >> it out... I can't get my content to show up. Really, every time I try >> to use Zope it is just a frustrating experience. Python needs another >> "killer app". > >Hey buddy, I've also have acquired a free account on zettai for the new >home for MindRetrieve (open source personal search engine). Have it for a >few weeks and haven't figure out how to set it up yet :P I actually want >to put some interactive program there. Hopefully it won't be too far off :) > >Wai Yip >_______________________________________________ >Baypiggies mailing list >Baypiggies at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20051205/6a7bafa1/attachment.htm From dekonerding at lbl.gov Mon Dec 5 19:33:16 2005 From: dekonerding at lbl.gov (David E. Konerding) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:33:16 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] agenda sugguestion Message-ID: <439487EC.2010202@lbl.gov> Hi, I have a couple projects that would be interesting to talk about: 1) We are the developers of the pyGlobus and pyGridWare projects which are toolkits for developing Grid applications in Python. pyGlobus wraps the very complex Globus software toolkit using SWIG making it easy to develop Grid clients and servers from Python. pyGridWare is a next generation Grid toolkit for developing WS-RF based Grid clients and services. 2) I am the team lead for ViCE (Visual Composition Environment) and C-BEI (Computation-Based Experimental Infrastructure). We are developing a visual programming environment for composing scientific workflows, and a workflow execution environment that can execute on a number of back-end compute resources including Grids, batch queueing systems, and service oriented architectures. Dave From mbrighton at neuropace.com Mon Dec 5 19:45:37 2005 From: mbrighton at neuropace.com (Mark C. Brighton) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:45:37 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] black magic question Message-ID: <704BA3F951BFE84B92F3B773D506C074B28D64@laguna.neuropace.com> Hello, I have a problem that probably has a simple answer, but it's been vexing me. I'm looking for a way to log an object's method calls and their results. Right now each method has a section of boiler-plate code that logs the method name, arguments, and results. It's cluttered and hard to maintain. It seems like a prime place to use a metaclass or decorator. The Python Cookbook (great book btw) has a recipe for this in section 20.6 (and using metaclasses in 20.7). I've tried it, and it works, except.... the object "looses" the method's argument information. For most objects, this isn't a problem, but we use this object interactively from the interpreter. If I were to make the tool tips unhelpful, I would immediately get complaints from my coworkers; and to be honest, I wouldn't like it either. So is there a way to use decorators (or the like) to add functionality around a class without obscuring its signature? thanks in advance, Mark Brighton From aleax at google.com Mon Dec 5 20:00:48 2005 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:00:48 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] black magic question In-Reply-To: <704BA3F951BFE84B92F3B773D506C074B28D64@laguna.neuropace.com> References: <704BA3F951BFE84B92F3B773D506C074B28D64@laguna.neuropace.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0512051100s1f7d3ec1s89bbe428d2264d20@mail.google.com> On 12/5/05, Mark C. Brighton wrote: > Hello, > > I have a problem that probably has a simple answer, but it's been vexing me. > > I'm looking for a way to log an object's method calls and their results. Right now each method has a section of boiler-plate code that logs the method name, arguments, and results. It's cluttered and hard to maintain. It seems like a prime place to use a metaclass or decorator. The Python Cookbook (great book btw) has a recipe for this in section 20.6 (and using metaclasses in 20.7). I've tried it, and it works, except.... the object "looses" the method's argument information. For most objects, this isn't a problem, but we use this object interactively from the interpreter. If I were to make the tool tips unhelpful, I would immediately get complaints from my coworkers; and to be honest, I wouldn't like it either. > > So is there a way to use decorators (or the like) to add functionality around a class without obscuring its signature? Yes, it's a lot of painstakign detailed work but it's feasible. Use module inspect to find out everything about the function you're decorating, and build a new function object "on the fly" (perhaps easiest, by building up the sourcecode for it as a string and then using the built-in compile function to turn that into bytecode) to mimic those aspects you want to preserve, such as the exact signature (argument names). Alex From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Mon Dec 5 20:39:14 2005 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:39:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Python, CherryPy, Kid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Michael, I'll forward your request to the Baypiggies list and see if there is someone there who is proficient with CherryPy. Message from Michael follows below; if you can help him, please contact him at michael at strategic6.com. Thanks! --- I have been unable to locate a U.S. Based programmer with experience programming in Python, using CherryPy and Kid as required by my client. Includes building dynamic portions of web site with ecommerce functionality linked to Verisign's payment system. I have found a very good candidate in Australia, but being that we are in Silicon Valley (or close to it), I would think I can find a local resource. From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Mon Dec 5 22:12:13 2005 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:12:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Be aware that the BayPIGgies list is being publicly mirrored In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Dec 2005, Stephen McInerney wrote: > Not sure people are aware of this (I wasn't), but I just found out all > the list messages since Apr 2005 are archived and publicly viewable at: > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.org.baypiggies/ Hi Stephen (and Lars from gmane), The gmane folks did ask us to do this a while back; I can't remember when they started archiving the list, but I recall that they did ask first before doing it. It may even be a good service that they're doing, as we haven't yet migrated the old archives of the list onto: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/ (I'm trying to get a copy of this now; will hear from her later this week hopefully. Aahz, do you have a copy of the archives?) Anyway, I'm not sure who was the point-person for keeping us archived in gmane. Someone should send a ping off to them so that they know that the email address of the list has changed, just in case. I guess I'll do that if it hasn't been done already. *grin* --- Lars, our 'baypiggies' mailing list has shifted to a new email server on python.org; its information can be found here: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies Just wanted to give a heads up on this; Aahz has migrate all our existing list members over to this new list, so perhaps there's nothing that you need to do on your end. From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Dec 5 22:28:30 2005 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:28:30 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Be aware that the BayPIGgies list is being publicly mirrored In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051205212830.GA9254@panix.com> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005, Danny Yoo wrote: > > (I'm trying to get a copy of this now; will hear from her later this week > hopefully. Aahz, do you have a copy of the archives?) Nope. I considered the archives the lowest priority of all move-related issues, and I chose to put no effort into it. Side note to Stephen: there was some discussion about Gmane back when the archiving was started -- I was the only one who raised any concerns. >From my POV, the list has already voted to be archived on Gmane. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire yourself a competent schmuck." --USENET schmuck (aka Robert Kern) From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Dec 6 09:11:53 2005 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:11:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] reddit switches to Python In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why reddit switched from lisp to Python: http://reddit.com/blog/2005/12/on-lisp.html From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 20:42:50 2005 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:42:50 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Zope + Plone In-Reply-To: References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> Message-ID: I use Plone for my church Web site . Although I prefer Aquarium for hard-core applications like I write at work, Plone is a nice content management system. :-/ Best Regards, -jj On 12/5/05, Tung Wai Yip wrote: > > The new site looks very nice. > > > > BTW, I got a free account on Zettai http://www.zettai.net/ to host > > pyNMS (open source project). They use Zope + Plone. I still can't figure > > it out... I can't get my content to show up. Really, every time I try > > to use Zope it is just a frustrating experience. Python needs another > > "killer app". > > Hey buddy, I've also have acquired a free account on zettai for the new > home for MindRetrieve (open source personal search engine). Have it for a > few weeks and haven't figure out how to set it up yet :P I actually want > to put some interactive program there. Hopefully it won't be too far off :) > > Wai Yip > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Hacking is to climbing Mt. Everest as software engineering is to building a Denny's there. From seojiwon at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 22:06:03 2005 From: seojiwon at gmail.com (Jiwon Seo) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:06:03 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Zope + Plone In-Reply-To: References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> Message-ID: I tried using plone like two or three years ago, and iirc it did not support multi-byte character properly. (Input/Output, Search, etc...) Does it work with multi-byte character now? -Jiwon On 12/7/05, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > I use Plone for my church Web site . > Although I prefer Aquarium for hard-core > applications like I write at work, Plone is a nice content management > system. :-/ > > Best Regards, > -jj > > On 12/5/05, Tung Wai Yip wrote: > > > The new site looks very nice. > > > > > > BTW, I got a free account on Zettai http://www.zettai.net/ to host > > > pyNMS (open source project). They use Zope + Plone. I still can't figure > > > it out... I can't get my content to show up. Really, every time I try > > > to use Zope it is just a frustrating experience. Python needs another > > > "killer app". > > > > Hey buddy, I've also have acquired a free account on zettai for the new > > home for MindRetrieve (open source personal search engine). Have it for a > > few weeks and haven't figure out how to set it up yet :P I actually want > > to put some interactive program there. Hopefully it won't be too far off :) > > > > Wai Yip > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > -- > Hacking is to climbing Mt. Everest as > software engineering is to building a Denny's there. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From webmaven at cox.net Wed Dec 7 22:52:20 2005 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:52:20 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Zope + Plone In-Reply-To: References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> Message-ID: <1133992340.22492.889.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 13:06 -0800, Jiwon Seo wrote: > I tried using plone like two or three years ago, and iirc it did not > support multi-byte character properly. (Input/Output, Search, etc...) > Does it work with multi-byte character now? According to my sources, what you need is likely the PloneTranslation[1] package to translate the UI as well as ZopeChinaPak[2] to provide proper indexing and searching. I have no experience with these, though, and can't even tell you how well (or whether) this works for other multi-byte languages, but if you need a non-Chinese solution, it might at least serve as a starting point. - Michael Bernstein References: [1] http://plone.org/products/plonetranslations [2] http://www.zope.org/Members/panjunyong/ZopeChinaPak From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 23:58:23 2005 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:58:23 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official Language War Thread? - Rails vs. Turbogears. In-Reply-To: <86aa81650512010010k72ab102i5a3c5e41119577cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <86aa81650512010010k72ab102i5a3c5e41119577cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/1/05, Rich Bodo wrote: > For any interested party, take the subject with a grain of salt, have > a sense of humor, and let's discuss web frameworks in Python and Ruby. > > I thought I would share my experiences w.r.t. these two web frameworks > and see how they compare to other peoples. These are mainly comments > reflecting my first impressions. > > Here's where I am: I decided I need to learn to write scalable web > apps. The reason I'm learning Rails is that I was instructed to do so > by a respectable web programmer (who is working in a Perl shop). > > I ignored his advice for a few days and tried Maypole first > (www.maypole.org), but it reminded me that I've never enjoyed reading > Perl. > > I've learned enough about Ruby and Rails to write simple CRUD > applications. In Ruby itself I've written a couple parsers and a > small Rails app. > > I've written somewhate less Python - a few small programs. I've > watched the TG Wiki-movie and read the turbotunes tutorial. > > Ruby: > > Ruby itself is interesting. Most people love to write very tersely, > but it still looks clean to me. A typical experience reading ruby > might be (from http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?AlexNetkachev): > > # execute a shell command, > # go through result and create XML in one line :-) > > xp.string = `ls`.inject('') { |xml, file| > xml << '' << file.chomp << '' } + '' > > Personally, I would never write something like that, but even though > it is written as tersely as the author could manage, I can understand > it. The iterator/code block syntax is probably not familiar to the > Python programmer, but they are the first thing you learn in Ruby. > > Ruby seems to leave out every character possible, and somehow it's > still more readable to me than Perl. Maybe *because* they leave out > so much, you have to read "less". I think this minimalist aesthetic > is a big part of Ruby's appeal. > > Ruby is also a curiosity. Until getting into the Programming Ruby > book, I had never heard of some of the features that Ruby borrows from > CLU and SmallTalk. There is a big novelty factor here. > > Rails: > > Rails, however, is where the aesthetic broke down for me. Mainly > because I have always recoiled from the popular practice of mixing > code and markup together that is so pervasive in the Rails community. > I'm having a hard time accepting it. > > On the positive side, Rails is very complete, and has a huge and > helpful community. So, once I get used to it, it will do what a > framework is supposed to do: allow me to concentrate on my > application. > > Python: > > The reason I'm on this list is that I have had good experiences > reading Python, and that's a huge factor for me. I re-read code a > lot. > > I can't help noticing that just about every library I download these > days comes with working Python examples and without working Ruby > examples. Yes, that will change and yes, that was an argument for > Perl over Python in the past, but there is no getting around the fact > that Python is an "established" and for many applications the most > established language. This is a time saver and, rightly, a confidence > builder. > > TurboGears: > > First thing I noticed is that, IMHO, the TG folk have a better website > than the RoR folk (but they are both awesome for community porjects). > This may seem off topic, but the website is what is going to drive > new members to the community. The website says a lot about the > momentum and longetivity of the project. Each time I return the docs > and examples on the TG site keep improving. > > At least from what I have seen, the templates look a lot cleaner in > TurboGears (o.k. there is a lot of JavaScript in there but that's > forgiveable). It looks to a beginner that the libraries behind TG are > more mature than the libraries behind Rails, so although TG is clearly > less well established, they get a lot from Python for free. > > Overall: > > Both of these languages are relatively easy to learn and read. Both of > these frameworks are completely irresistable. I feel I have to learn > both. As soon as I master RoR, I can't wait to get into TurboGears. By the way, please have a look at Aquarium . Although it doesn't have quite the same bling bling Web site, it does have developers all over the world. It's being used by large companies all over the world, although most of them don't know it ;) It enjoys a quiet, stable, well-documented existence. It's appropriate for use in very large, very custom, dynamic Web applications. Thanks for your time, -jj -- Hacking is to climbing Mt. Everest as software engineering is to building a Denny's there. From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Dec 8 11:16:07 2005 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 02:16:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] web frameworks, etc In-Reply-To: References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> Message-ID: Much interesting stuff, talks about various web frameworks. Frank comments. http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit excerpt: My friends over at reddit.com rewrote their site from Lisp to Python in the past week. It was pretty much done after one weekend. (Disclosure: They used my web.py library.) They knew Lisp (they wrote their whole site in it) and they knew Python (they rewrote their whole site in it) and yet they decided liked Python better for this project. The Python version had less code than ran faster and was far easier to read and maintain. From seojiwon at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 19:15:50 2005 From: seojiwon at gmail.com (Jiwon Seo) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:15:50 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Zope + Plone In-Reply-To: <1133992340.22492.889.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <14CB482D-12A3-48B1-AA91-632F65ED762B@deirdre.net> <20051205034606.300ea94b@leviathan.kdart.com> <1133992340.22492.889.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Thanks, guys. I'll try out PloneTranslation this time. -Jiwon On 12/7/05, Michael Bernstein wrote: > On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 13:06 -0800, Jiwon Seo wrote: > > I tried using plone like two or three years ago, and iirc it did not > > support multi-byte character properly. (Input/Output, Search, etc...) > > Does it work with multi-byte character now? > > According to my sources, what you need is likely the PloneTranslation[1] > package to translate the UI as well as ZopeChinaPak[2] to provide proper > indexing and searching. > > I have no experience with these, though, and can't even tell you how > well (or whether) this works for other multi-byte languages, but if you > need a non-Chinese solution, it might at least serve as a starting > point. > > - Michael Bernstein > > References: > [1] http://plone.org/products/plonetranslations > [2] http://www.zope.org/Members/panjunyong/ZopeChinaPak > > From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 8 20:15:38 2005 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:15:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies - Looking for a SW Engineer with 2 years of PYTHON experience (fwd) Message-ID: Hi Daniel, Sure; I'll forward your message to the Baypiggies list. You may also want to look into the Python Jobs board: http://www.python.org/Jobs.html ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:49:03 -0800 From: Daniel Lopez To: deirdre at deirdre.net, wesc at deirdre.org, dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Subject: BayPIGgies - Looking for a SW Engineer with 2 years of PYTHON experience Dear Deirdre, Danny, and Wesley, Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Daniel Lopez and I work for IT Recruitment firm in San Mateo called International Programming and Systems. The purpose of this message is to ask permission to post a contract opportunity. I have a client in Santa Clara, a major developer of storage devices, with a need sw engineer with Python programming experience. Specifically I need a candidate who has experience developing GUI's in Python for an application that is designed to synchronize and control PC running in a chamber. The GUI will be able to run executable in groups, chained to a sequence in of tests that have variable environmental conditions. I would be glad to discuss this further. Please feel free to call me anytime. Sincerely, Daniel Lopez International Programming & Systems, Inc. San Mateo CA Tel: 650.572.8585 (800.229.8585 toll free in US) Fax: 650.572.8679 email: dlopez at ipsamerica.com http://www.ipsamerica.com/ SW Engineer Location Santa Clara Required: - 2 years of Python experience where Python was the primary language used - Strong C++ knowledge including OOP, template and the STL Pluses: - Experience developing GUIs in Python, particularly with wxPython - Test Application development experience From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 09:24:33 2005 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:24:33 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] GCipher: slides and source code Message-ID: I've uploaded the slides and source code from tonight's talk: http://gcipher.sourceforge.net/talk.tar.gz Best Regards, -jj -- Hacking is to climbing Mt. Everest as software engineering is to building a Denny's there. From harrington_chad at hotmail.com Fri Dec 9 21:52:25 2005 From: harrington_chad at hotmail.com (Chad Harrington) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 12:52:25 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Programming --> Python Message-ID: Funny thing I noticed today: Googling "programming" yields python.org as the first hit! Extreme Programming, C, and Java sites follow after that. Kinda fun.
Chad Harrington
harrington_chad at hotmail.com From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 11:26:15 2005 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 02:26:15 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] LinkedIn professional networking may be useful for BayPIGgies Message-ID: Several people had mentioned at previous meetings they wanted a directory of members' interests. One possible mechanism might be LinkedIn.com professional network. You can list BayPIGgies membership in "My Profile->Groups and associations" Privacy and antispam features are very strong. Your contacts are not visible except to people you have approved. However any career or professional interests you list are searchable, which is exactly what you want. People who are interested in contacting you can request to have their message approved to be forwarded you via the chain of people between them and you. It's very good, check it out. Contact me if you want an invite and we know each other. Regards, Stephen From guido at python.org Mon Dec 12 20:36:45 2005 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:36:45 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] LinkedIn professional networking may be useful for BayPIGgies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My experience with LinkedIn is mixed. While they have a large user base (which makes them attractive), I found their security aproach lacking -- for example they store your password in cleartext and will happily mail it back to you when you click on the "forgot password" link. (Well I complained to the highest level of VP about that so they may have fixed that one by now.) I'm also not sure what benefit I get from it. --Guido On 12/12/05, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > Several people had mentioned at previous meetings they wanted > a directory of members' interests. > > One possible mechanism might be LinkedIn.com professional network. > > You can list BayPIGgies membership in "My Profile->Groups and associations" > > Privacy and antispam features are very strong. Your contacts are not visible > except to people you have approved. However any career or professional > interests you list are searchable, which is exactly what you want. > People who are interested in contacting you can request to have their > message approved to be forwarded you via the chain of people between them > and you. It's very good, check it out. Contact me if you want an invite and > we know each other. > > Regards, > Stephen > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From webmaven at cox.net Mon Dec 12 21:45:26 2005 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:45:26 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] LinkedIn professional networking may be useful for BayPIGgies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1134420326.19595.139.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-12-12 at 11:36 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > I'm also not sure what benefit I get from it. The primary use-case is that the user is trying to find someone to establish a new business relationship with (ie. looking for an employer/employee, hiring a professional in some capacity, partner for new biz-venture, etc.), and the system facilitates finding such a person through your existing connections and getting a chain-of-trust introduction to them. If you're: - not looking for work (consulting or otherwise) - not looking for employees - not looking for *any* new business relationships (even to the extent of wanting to find an accountant or interior decorator, say) - and don't care to facilitate these introductions for other people either ...then LinkedIn is fairly useless for you. For me, LinkedIn has been reasonably useful. For example, I once needed some advice on what warning signs to look for when contemplating doing consulting work for a company in Russia. There was no way I would have found someone with the relevant experience on my own even if I had been willing to spam everyone in my contacts. LinkedIn made finding such a person easy and facilitated a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend introduction. I got some good advice (for free, as it turns out), and after asking the potential customer some pointed questions about the terms, avoided what could have been a costly (mostly in terms of time) mistake. In short, if making introductions or being introduced in a business context is something you spend any time doing, LinkedIn will help you do it more efficiently, which can lead to a qualitative difference in the results you get. - Michael Bernstein From gilesb at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 04:26:58 2005 From: gilesb at gmail.com (Giles Bowkett) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:26:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] LinkedIn professional networking may be useful for BayPIGgies In-Reply-To: <1134420326.19595.139.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1134420326.19595.139.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <2d81dedb0512121926hc25efbfhf7fe97caac816cc3@mail.gmail.com> > If you're: > > - not looking for work (consulting or otherwise) > > - not looking for employees > > - not looking for *any* new business relationships (even to the extent > of wanting to find an accountant or interior decorator, say) > > - and don't care to facilitate these introductions for other people > either > > ...then LinkedIn is fairly useless for you. I think that's a bit sarcastic. I'm going to be a bit ruthless and summarize: > If you're: > > - not looking for work > > ...then LinkedIn is fairly useless for you. that's why they have that other version of LinkedIn, Karma One or whatever -- the recruiting network that only takes people who already have jobs. (and I can see where they're coming from, but I think naming a service like that after karma is just thumbing your nose at the gods.) anyway, having consulting opportunities worldwide is cool, and that story about Russia sounds interesting, but personally, that's one site I'd never get around to checking. sorry, but it looks like Myspace for people who synergize. -- Giles Bowkett = Giles Goat Boy http://www.gilesgoatboy.org/ From epalmore at pixar.com Fri Dec 16 00:45:51 2005 From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:45:51 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] API QA Engineer @ Pixar! Message-ID: API QA Engineer Studio Tools ? Pixar Animation Studios Pixar Animation Studios combines creative and technical artistry to create original stories in the medium of computer animation.?Pixar has created six of the most successful and beloved animated films of all time: Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc., Finding Nemo and The Incredibles.?Pixar has won 18 Academy Awards? and its six films have grossed more than $3.2 billion at the worldwide box office to date.?The Northern California studio will release its next film, Cars, on June 9, 2006. ? Summary of Job: Studio Tools' QA Team is looking for an experienced QA API test engineer to participate in our software quality assurance efforts. This position requires close collaboration with the engineering staff to define, develop, execute, and automate API level test plans and test cases. Identify and communicate a strategy for API and other testing methodologies, review and report on test progress, status, and coverage, and meet test completion and delivery milestones that you help define. Work closely with development, project management and documentation to coordinate testing responsibilities. Responsibilities: ? Develop and execute an API testing strategy, using API testing methodology and programming language knowledge ? Develop and implement API tests ? Contribute to setting and evaluating milestone criteria such that product is released on schedule with high quality ? Design and implement quality processes for a small team of senior software developers ? Work closely with the core development teams during all phases of the product life cycle ? Evaluate completeness and effectiveness of developer's unit tests ? Qualifications: ? 5+ years of experience in QA ? Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or equivalent ? 3+ years of experience testing C++/Objective C APIs and complex data structures ? Excellent design and coding skills in C/C++/Objective C, Java and a scripting language such as Python or Perl ? Knowledge of QA methodology, processes, and tools ? Direct experience testing software under Unix, Linux ? Self-directed, detail-oriented and patient ? Experience with 3D graphics applications is a plus (i.e., Maya, SOFTIMAGE) ? Cross platform development experience is preferred (Windows, Macintosh, Linux) Note: This is not a server or web testing QA position. Pixar is an Equal Opportunity Employer. To Apply Please Go To: http://jobsearch.pixar.careers.monster.com/getjob.asp? JobID=35057518&AVSDM=2005%2D11%2D16+17%3A35%3A08&Logo=0&col=dlt&sort=rv& vw=b&fn=8265 ? ? From pmarxhausen at yahoo.com Mon Dec 19 06:53:19 2005 From: pmarxhausen at yahoo.com (Paul Marxhausen) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:53:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Programming Class at Foothill College in Los Altos Hills Message-ID: <20051219055319.26772.qmail@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Please note that Foothill College in Los Altos Hills is offering in the Winter 2006 session (starting in January) the following Python Course: Department: Computer Information Systems CIS 68K INTRODUCTION TO PYTHON PROGRAMMING (Lecture) Units: 5 Hours: Four hours lecture, four hours terminal time. Call Number: 2354 Schedule ID: CIS -068K-01 Location: 4202 View Campus Map Time: 9:00AM-12:40 Days: Saturday Instructor: GEVER Advisory: CIS015A or CIS027A, and CIS068A. Course Description: This course will introduce students to the Python language and environment. Python is a portable, interpreted, object-oriented programming language that is often compared to Perl, Java, Scheme and Tcl. The language has an elegant syntax, dynamic typing, and a small number of powerful, high-level data types. It also has modules, classes, and exceptions. The modules provide interfaces to many system calls and libraries, as well as to various windowing systems(X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC). New built-in modules are easily written in C or C++. Such extension modules can define new functions and variables as well as new object types. See www.foothill.edu for further details. Cheers, Paul Marxhausen Senior Staff Software Engineer Lockheed Martin Space Systems Company From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Dec 22 01:53:57 2005 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:53:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] G van R now at Google! In-Reply-To: <20051219055319.26772.qmail@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051219055319.26772.qmail@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/32dc95bd671542f3/ Looks like he won't have far to travel to attend half of the future Baypiggies meetings! -Mike From iiourov at yahoo.com Thu Dec 22 02:06:20 2005 From: iiourov at yahoo.com (Ilia Iourovitski) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:06:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] G van R now at Google! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051222010620.69640.qmail@web53204.mail.yahoo.com> What took Google so long? :) --- Mike Cheponis wrote: > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/32dc95bd671542f3/ > > Looks like he won't have far to travel to attend > half of the future Baypiggies meetings! > > -Mike > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Dec 23 16:02:23 2005 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:02:23 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon: early reg! Message-ID: <20051223150223.GA11174@panix.com> Early reg for PyCon expires Dec 31. Currently $185; $250 next year (conference is end of February). http://us.pycon.org/TX2006/Registration -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire yourself a competent schmuck." --USENET schmuck (aka Robert Kern) From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 19:36:31 2005 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:36:31 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] The Inverse Extend Design Pattern In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After waiting for almost a year for Dr. Dobb's Journal to hurry up and publish the article after accepting it, I gave up. It wasn't really Linux related so Linux Journal didn't immediately jump on it for their magazine, but they were very happy to publish it online. Thanks for all your help guys, especially Doug for telling me about Beta! http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8747 Best Regards, -jj -- Law is much too important a thing to leave to politicians, lawyers, and celebrities. -- Law is much too important a thing to leave to politicians, lawyers, and celebrities.