From warren.sande at rogers.com Thu May 8 23:17:26 2008 From: warren.sande at rogers.com (Warren Sande) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 14:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [python-advocacy] Programming book for kids Message-ID: <232688.17266.qm@web88105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I am the author of a new book on programming for kids, which uses Python. A member of this list helped connect me with a publisher last year. The book is now in the final stages of production, and it is available for pre-order on Amazon. It is scheduled for release in September. The title is: "Hello World! Computer Programming for Kids and Other Beginners" Here is the link on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Hello-World-Computer-Programming-Beginners/dp/1933988495/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210278845&sr=8-1 Here is the page on the publishers web site: http://www.manning.com/sande/ Amazon has it on sale at the moment. (Don't ask me why - I don't have a clue how their pricing works.) Regards, Warren Sande -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu May 8 23:37:44 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 14:37:44 -0700 Subject: [python-advocacy] Programming book for kids In-Reply-To: <232688.17266.qm@web88105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <232688.17266.qm@web88105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080508213743.GA801@panix.com> On Thu, May 08, 2008, Warren Sande wrote: > > I am the author of a new book on programming for kids, which uses > Python. A member of this list helped connect me with a publisher last > year. > > The book is now in the final stages of production, and it is available > for pre-order on Amazon. It is scheduled for release in September. Congrats! I know from personal experience how difficult it is to get a book into print. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html From rex.eastbourne at gmail.com Fri May 9 00:08:03 2008 From: rex.eastbourne at gmail.com (Rex C. Eastbourne) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 18:08:03 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] Programming book for kids In-Reply-To: <232688.17266.qm@web88105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <232688.17266.qm@web88105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <482379C3.40900@gmail.com> Warren Sande wrote: > I am the author of a new book on programming for kids, which uses > Python. A member of this list helped connect me with a publisher last > year. > > The book is now in the final stages of production, and it is available > for pre-order on Amazon. It is scheduled for release in September. > > The title is: "Hello World! Computer Programming for Kids and Other > Beginners" > > Here is the link on Amazon: > http://www.amazon.com/Hello-World-Computer-Programming-Beginners/dp/1933988495/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210278845&sr=8-1 > > > Here is the page on the publishers web site: > http://www.manning.com/sande/ > > Amazon has it on sale at the moment. (Don't ask me why - I don't have > a clue how their pricing works.) > > Regards, > Warren Sande > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > Kudos! And catchy title :) From ctrachte at gmail.com Sat May 10 15:59:36 2008 From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 06:59:36 -0700 Subject: [python-advocacy] Favorable Python Blog from PHP Programmer Message-ID: <426ada670805100659t2455ababu5d467d5e5defa2f@mail.gmail.com> Brief, but favorable. Plugs Django. Makes case for need for libraries outside of web sphere. Defends indentation. http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/05/09/a-php-guy's-look-at-python/ From paul at boddie.org.uk Sat May 10 16:25:09 2008 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:25:09 +0200 Subject: [python-advocacy] Favorable Python Blog from PHP Programmer In-Reply-To: <426ada670805100659t2455ababu5d467d5e5defa2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <426ada670805100659t2455ababu5d467d5e5defa2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200805101625.09430.paul@boddie.org.uk> On Saturday 10 May 2008 15:59:36 Carl Trachte wrote: > Brief, but favorable. > Plugs Django. > Makes case for need for libraries outside of web sphere. > Defends indentation. There's an interesting exchange in the comments about measuring community size where someone compares the volume of postings to forums about PHP and Python, with a follow-up noting that the opposite conclusion would be drawn if mailing list volumes were compared. Such things are always worth considering when attempting to measure and project programming language trends. > http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/05/09/a-php-guy's-look-at-python/ Some URL magic may be needed to get to the article for some of us: http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/05/09/a-php-guy%e2%80%99s-look-at-python/ Paul From asouzaleite at gmx.de Fri May 9 15:29:59 2008 From: asouzaleite at gmx.de (Aroldo Souza-Leite) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 15:29:59 +0200 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python Success Story (didactics of informatics) In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0804250350n134bc618mb8f4b90673ee1f96@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080424194058.GA23972@panix.com> <48113F1B.6030807@python.org> <43c8685c0804250350n134bc618mb8f4b90673ee1f96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080509132959.35650@gmx.net> Hi Tennessee, you all are perfectly right in thinking that I first should write the article, and then look for the appropriate place to publish it. What I am thinking of lies somewhere between didactics of informatics and programming language syntax critique in the context of the IT training business. Now it's on me to write it ... let's see if I manage it in the course of the next three weeks. Please wait a little bit. Thanks for your attention. Regards, Aroldo. -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:50:37 +1000 > Von: "Tennessee Leeuwenburg" > An: "Stephan Deibel (PSF)" > CC: asouzaleite at gmx.de, advocacy at python.org, webmaster at python.org, philip > Betreff: Re: [python-advocacy] Python Success Story (didactics of informatics) > Hi Aroldo, > > If you would be interested, it would also make a very appropriate article > for *The Python Papers*. We would be happy to edit and publish such an > article. Let me know if you don't find a home for the article on the > python.org website and we can get it online that way. Either way, it would > be great to read the article once finished, so an email to myself or this > list would be appreciated, and I will enjoy seeing what you have to say! > > Regards, > -Tennessee > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Stephan Deibel (PSF) > > wrote: > > > Aroldo Souza-Leite wrote: > > > >> this email is addressed to the administrator or chief editor of > >>> http://www.python.org/about/success/. > >>> > >>> I would like to write a Python success story as an IT corporate > trainer. > >>> The company I work for (GFU Cyrus Cologne, http://www.gfu.net) has > been > >>> organising inhouse corporate IT seminars as well seminars in our > Cologne > >>> premises for 25 years, in various programming languages and IT topics. > >>> Python has lately proved an outsanding choice when teaching > programmers to > >>> move quickly from traditional technologies to object oriented design, > but > >>> also a very convenient language for introducing beginners to the art > of > >>> programming as such. My point is to write an article analyzing and > >>> justifying the Python syntax from the point of view of teaching > techniques > >>> as (ethically correctly) compared to other currently more widespread > >>> programming languages. > >>> > >>> The "Education" section in the success stories page seems to mean > rather > >>> "python based software applied to education", whereas the GFU > activities > >>> would rather go under a section "Didactics of informatics" or "IT > Teaching > >>> techniques" . > >>> > >>> a) Is it possible to add such a section and the success stories page? > >>> > >> > > The master copy of the stories is at http://pythonology.org/success > > and there is information about writing one here: > > > > http://pythonology.org/successguide > > > > I'm not completely sure what you plan to write makes sense in this > > context but it would probably be reasonable to at least link to it > > from somewhere on python.org or in the Python wiki. > > > > As far as the categories on python.org: They certainly can be changed, > > though let's wait to see if this is even appropriate as a "success > > story". > > > > b) Is there a reStructuredText template for writing a success story? > >>> > >> > > There isn't a template but if you do decide to write it up as a success > > story please structure the story similar to the others. You can get at > > the ReST formatted stories through the story distribution service: > > > > http://pythonology.org/success&help=1 > > > > Here is an example: > > > > http://pythonology.org/success&rst=gravityzoo&noheader=1 > > > > Please let me know if you have any questions. > > > > -- > > > > Stephan Deibel > > Director > > Python Software Foundation > > > > http://python.org/psf > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocacy mailing list > > Advocacy at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > From bradallen137 at gmail.com Sun May 18 22:58:06 2008 From: bradallen137 at gmail.com (Brad Allen) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 15:58:06 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python culture clash complaint Message-ID: <4957f1ef0805181358l6ee0d16cpf21e90ff933159c0@mail.gmail.com> Here is a blog from a developer exploring Python but getting frustrated with the community attitude, which I find surprising: http://developmentadventures.blogspot.com/2008/05/culture-clash-with-python.html Excerpt: There is one aspect though that just really clashes with me; the community is VERY quick to point out how you're wrong. It doesn't matter about what, it's just you're wrong. I've found that most of the time, I am, but there's this absoluteist tone that I sense that makes me completely understand why the community has the "Pythonista" term applied. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffh at dundeemt.com Mon May 19 05:28:24 2008 From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 22:28:24 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python culture clash complaint In-Reply-To: <4957f1ef0805181358l6ee0d16cpf21e90ff933159c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4957f1ef0805181358l6ee0d16cpf21e90ff933159c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5aaed53f0805182028x9b66c25v42b0cbf2d27b38a2@mail.gmail.com> After reading his diatribe, he is not referring to how he is treated by the community , but rather his commentary is about the docs. Maybe the truth could be pointed out out in a more touchy-feely manner but it doesn't change the fact of what join does. He then goes on to single out an unnamed irc member about his comment on line length. (PEP8) (And the writer was just lurking, not participating) As a side note, when I first started with Python I couldn't see why tabs were inferior to spaces -- although it didn't take long for me to amend my ways, wisdom is always gained at a price. Python doesn't coerce you very much and most times gives you plenty of rope to trip yourself. Maybe I am completely off base, but it appears as if the writer is looking for a way to justify his decision to not like Python. His remark about "fundamentalist religious methods of conversion" is sheer hyperbole. He should have led off with that, instead I had to read to the end to confirm what I suspected. -Jeff On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Brad Allen wrote: > Here is a blog from a developer exploring Python but getting frustrated with > the community attitude, which I find surprising: > > http://developmentadventures.blogspot.com/2008/05/culture-clash-with-python.html > > Excerpt: > > There is one aspect though that just really clashes with me; the community > is VERY quick to point out how you're wrong. It doesn't matter about what, > it's just you're wrong. I've found that most of the time, I am, but there's > this absoluteist tone that I sense that makes me completely understand why > the community has the "Pythonista" term applied. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > -- Jeff Hinrichs jeffh at dundeemt.com web: www.dundeemt.com blog: inre.dundeemt.com From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com Mon May 19 06:00:48 2008 From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 14:00:48 +1000 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python culture clash complaint In-Reply-To: <5aaed53f0805182028x9b66c25v42b0cbf2d27b38a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4957f1ef0805181358l6ee0d16cpf21e90ff933159c0@mail.gmail.com> <5aaed53f0805182028x9b66c25v42b0cbf2d27b38a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43c8685c0805182100l1957554er1b88da1914aa9a32@mail.gmail.com> I wouldn't say it was diatribe. I found myself agreeing with many of his comments, and it's a shame that presenting things in a civil manner is thought of as being 'touchy feely'. How the docs are written is an act of the community, ergo how someone reacts to the docs is also a reaction to the community. While a competitive / combative style of communication gives some people a real buzz, and is something they enjoy, for others it is different. This is, basically, why most official documentation tends to adopt a somewhat dry and squeaky-clean tone. It's not because there's anyone who thinks it's particularly wonderful, but because it's just not worth pissing people off. Consider his quote from PEP-8: *The second objection is typically cast as: "I am really telling a sequence to join its members together with a string constant". Sadly, you aren't. *Well, I can see how that would piss someone off. So why do it? For the kicks? For the buzz that can come from standing up for the rightness of things? I just don't see any point. It really doesn't matter that much whether the call is delimiter.join(list) or list.join(delimiter). So I don't think anyone needs to be told that it's sad how they can't see the advantages in one particular method.* *Most people, let's face it, have had their share of being crapped on already in life. Why add to it?* * -Tennessee On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: > After reading his diatribe, he is not referring to how he is treated > by the community , but rather his commentary is about the docs. Maybe > the truth could be pointed out out in a more touchy-feely manner but > it doesn't change the fact of what join does. > > He then goes on to single out an unnamed irc member about his comment > on line length. (PEP8) (And the writer was just lurking, not > participating) As a side note, when I first started with Python I > couldn't see why tabs were inferior to spaces -- although it didn't > take long for me to amend my ways, wisdom is always gained at a > price. Python doesn't coerce you very much and most times gives > you plenty of rope to trip yourself. > > Maybe I am completely off base, but it appears as if the writer is > looking for a way to justify his decision to not like Python. His > remark about "fundamentalist religious methods of conversion" is sheer > hyperbole. He should have led off with that, instead I had to read to > the end to confirm what I suspected. > > -Jeff > > On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Brad Allen > wrote: > > Here is a blog from a developer exploring Python but getting frustrated > with > > the community attitude, which I find surprising: > > > > > http://developmentadventures.blogspot.com/2008/05/culture-clash-with-python.html > > > > Excerpt: > > > > There is one aspect though that just really clashes with me; the > community > > is VERY quick to point out how you're wrong. It doesn't matter about > what, > > it's just you're wrong. I've found that most of the time, I am, but > there's > > this absoluteist tone that I sense that makes me completely understand > why > > the community has the "Pythonista" term applied. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocacy mailing list > > Advocacy at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > > > > > > > -- > Jeff Hinrichs > jeffh at dundeemt.com > web: www.dundeemt.com > blog: inre.dundeemt.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doug.hellmann at gmail.com Mon May 19 15:11:11 2008 From: doug.hellmann at gmail.com (Doug Hellmann) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 09:11:11 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] promotional offer for user groups from Python Magazine Message-ID: <4CC2F66B-B121-4ED4-91C8-A0824F2E0CC5@gmail.com> Python Magazine would like to offer free 3 month PDF subscriptions for members of Python user groups. If you participate in a user group and would like to take advantage of this offer, drop me a line and I will give you the details. Thanks, Doug -- Doug Hellmann Technical Editor Python Magazine From jeffh at dundeemt.com Mon May 19 15:41:30 2008 From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 08:41:30 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python culture clash complaint In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0805182100l1957554er1b88da1914aa9a32@mail.gmail.com> References: <4957f1ef0805181358l6ee0d16cpf21e90ff933159c0@mail.gmail.com> <5aaed53f0805182028x9b66c25v42b0cbf2d27b38a2@mail.gmail.com> <43c8685c0805182100l1957554er1b88da1914aa9a32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5aaed53f0805190641r250334c9vdfcd246b5696c8af@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 11:00 PM, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > I wouldn't say it was diatribe. I found myself agreeing with many of his > comments, and it's a shame that presenting things in a civil manner is > thought of as being 'touchy feely'. But, I don't consider the passage to be uncivil, I believe it to be somewhat funny. > How the docs are written is an act of the community, ergo how someone reacts > to the docs is also a reaction to the community. > > While a competitive / combative style of communication gives some people a > real buzz, and is something they enjoy, for others it is different. This is, > basically, why most official documentation tends to adopt a somewhat dry and > squeaky-clean tone. It's not because there's anyone who thinks it's > particularly wonderful, but because it's just not worth pissing people off. I wouldn't say combative, dry wit is a more accurate description. A hallmark of Monty Python. And I agree with you that most documentation is offensively boring. > Consider his quote from PEP-8: > > The second objection is typically cast as: "I am really telling a sequence > to join its members together with a string constant". Sadly, you aren't. > > Well, I can see how that would piss someone off. So why do it? For the > kicks? For the buzz that can come from standing up for the rightness of > things? I just don't see any point. It really doesn't matter that much > whether the call is delimiter.join(list) or list.join(delimiter). So I don't > think anyone needs to be told that it's sad how they can't see the > advantages in one particular method. I do not believe that was ever the intent by the writer. In fact, I have never witnessed or read anything demeaning from anyone in the community -- especially those that are very active in it, so to make the jump that some one is attempting to be demeaning in what they wrote in the documentation is hard to do. While I respect your opinion that the tone of that particular section of the docs needs to be modified because not everyone might not read it in the same light, I do not agree with your assertion about its intent. Further, it doesn't just end with "...sadly, you aren't." It continues on with the reasoning. http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general/#why-is-join-a-string-method-instead-of-a-list-or-tuple-method Here, they explain the .split/.join, unicode/ascii and string module reasoning for why .join is a string method and not a list method. > > Most people, let's face it, have had their share of being crapped on already > in life. Why add to it? Wow. > -Tennessee Since you found yourself agreeing with the blogger, can you point out other examples in the docs/faqs that support your view? Is this a broader issue with the docs or not? You have editorial experience that I do not and I trust that you are better at catching these types of faux pas, than I. I contend that at worst, this is an isolated passage, whose humor may not be universal. (A travesty, in my opinion) Irregardless, if you have a patch for the FAQ, I am confident it would be accepted. There is no reason to detract from the fact, that the people I have interacted with in the Python community have been the helpful, generous and encouraging. Regards, Jeff > > On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T > wrote: >> >> After reading his diatribe, he is not referring to how he is treated >> by the community , but rather his commentary is about the docs. Maybe >> the truth could be pointed out out in a more touchy-feely manner but >> it doesn't change the fact of what join does. >> >> He then goes on to single out an unnamed irc member about his comment >> on line length. (PEP8) (And the writer was just lurking, not >> participating) As a side note, when I first started with Python I >> couldn't see why tabs were inferior to spaces -- although it didn't >> take long for me to amend my ways, wisdom is always gained at a >> price. Python doesn't coerce you very much and most times gives >> you plenty of rope to trip yourself. >> >> Maybe I am completely off base, but it appears as if the writer is >> looking for a way to justify his decision to not like Python. His >> remark about "fundamentalist religious methods of conversion" is sheer >> hyperbole. He should have led off with that, instead I had to read to >> the end to confirm what I suspected. >> >> -Jeff >> >> On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Brad Allen >> wrote: >> > Here is a blog from a developer exploring Python but getting frustrated >> > with >> > the community attitude, which I find surprising: >> > >> > >> > http://developmentadventures.blogspot.com/2008/05/culture-clash-with-python.html >> > >> > Excerpt: >> > >> > There is one aspect though that just really clashes with me; the >> > community >> > is VERY quick to point out how you're wrong. It doesn't matter about >> > what, >> > it's just you're wrong. I've found that most of the time, I am, but >> > there's >> > this absoluteist tone that I sense that makes me completely understand >> > why >> > the community has the "Pythonista" term applied. >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Advocacy mailing list >> > Advocacy at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Jeff Hinrichs >> jeffh at dundeemt.com >> web: www.dundeemt.com >> blog: inre.dundeemt.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocacy mailing list >> Advocacy at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > From phil.shinn at gmail.com Mon May 19 20:52:34 2008 From: phil.shinn at gmail.com (Phil Shinn) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 14:52:34 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] free subscription Message-ID: <8f39f920805191152i567d3e7bq6400ad1231971630@mail.gmail.com> Please sign me up: ----------------------------- Python Magazine would like to offer free 3 month PDF subscriptions for members of Python user groups. If you participate in a user group and would like to take advantage of this offer, drop me a line and I will give you the details. Thanks, Doug -- Doug Hellmann Technical Editor Python Magazine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doug.hellmann at gmail.com Mon May 19 21:30:50 2008 From: doug.hellmann at gmail.com (Doug Hellmann) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 15:30:50 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] promotional offer for user groups from Python Magazine In-Reply-To: <4CC2F66B-B121-4ED4-91C8-A0824F2E0CC5@gmail.com> References: <4CC2F66B-B121-4ED4-91C8-A0824F2E0CC5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1A1DFB91-F268-4819-A602-6BA687BFF297@gmail.com> The response has been good, so to save everyone a little time here are the details: This promotional is open to members of user groups who discuss Python- related topics. To take advantage of the offer, each member of the group should go to our web site (http://www.pythonmagazine.com) and set up an account (that's already free). When they register, the site will ask them for an email address to identify the account. If a single member of the group sends me a list of all the email addresses used, along with the name of the user group represented, I'll make sure we enable the subscriptions. Thanks, Doug -- Doug Hellmann Technical Editor Python Magazine On May 19, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Python Magazine would like to offer free 3 month PDF subscriptions > for members of Python user groups. If you participate in a user > group and would like to take advantage of this offer, drop me a line > and I will give you the details. > > Thanks, > Doug > -- > Doug Hellmann > Technical Editor > Python Magazine > > > > From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com Tue May 20 02:06:15 2008 From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:06:15 +1000 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python culture clash complaint In-Reply-To: <5aaed53f0805190641r250334c9vdfcd246b5696c8af@mail.gmail.com> References: <4957f1ef0805181358l6ee0d16cpf21e90ff933159c0@mail.gmail.com> <5aaed53f0805182028x9b66c25v42b0cbf2d27b38a2@mail.gmail.com> <43c8685c0805182100l1957554er1b88da1914aa9a32@mail.gmail.com> <5aaed53f0805190641r250334c9vdfcd246b5696c8af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43c8685c0805191706xaeab2c6nf4be78847efafcd8@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jeff, A very considered response from you... On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 11:41 PM, Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: > On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 11:00 PM, Tennessee Leeuwenburg > wrote: > > I wouldn't say it was diatribe. I found myself agreeing with many of his > > comments, and it's a shame that presenting things in a civil manner is > > thought of as being 'touchy feely'. > But, I don't consider the passage to be uncivil, I believe it to be > somewhat funny. That's just the thing. There's all kinds of people out there. Since you found yourself agreeing with the blogger, can you point out > other examples in the docs/faqs that support your view? Is this a > broader issue with the docs or not? You have editorial experience > that I do not and I trust that you are better at catching these types > of faux pas, than I. I contend that at worst, this is an isolated > passage, whose humor may not be universal. (A travesty, in my > opinion) > > Irregardless, if you have a patch for the FAQ, I am confident it would > be accepted. There is no reason to detract from the fact, that the > people I have interacted with in the Python community have been the > helpful, generous and encouraging. +1 the community is great. Please pardon a small rant, not directed at you who have been very polite and level-headed. Oh, absolutely. By and large, everyone is good and decent, and are basically just trying to do their best. If they inject a bit of humor to lighten their day, what harm is done? Usually very little. In my humble opinion, it's just a little quip in the documentation that my eye would normally simply roll straight over... In my editorial experience, I have found two things. One: from time to time, I have come across individuals who are very convinced that their way of doing things is the Python way of doing things, even when it isn't, and they can be very forceful about it. By and large I'm a fairly robust individual, and I don't really mind. Clearly they mean no harm, and I'm happy to agree to disagree, and I'm happy to roll with their enthusiasm and not take affront to it. This leads me to point two: that there are a significant minority of people who can and do take affront to such things. I've found when I declare in an enthusiastic moment "It is so" that there are those out there who assume I'm issuing an edict with force. They can easily be offended or hurt, old wounds can be raked over unkindly, they may be offended or all kinds of things. That I meant no harm is not the most important thing going on here -- the harm suffered is the most important thing going on. I would be tempted to write it off as being their problem except that as time goes by I can see it's also my problem. I've *seen* people who have chucked Python away in part because of how they were treated. I've pissed people off and offended them through curt language or an offhand response. I've had authors who have been insulted and abused by reader feedback on their blogs. While I generally think that there's nothing much wrong with the rough-and-tumble of a robust discussion, I also believe that's an individual thing and not something that has a home in any official stance. I also think it's a shame when those who don't mean any harm can't see that they're inflicting it. I used to be like that -- probably still am a lot of the time -- where I could really bother someone and not even notice. It's just not worth the human cost. http://xkcd.com/386/ :) Regards, -Tennessee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbc at unc.edu Tue May 20 16:20:43 2008 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:20:43 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python culture clash complaint In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0805191706xaeab2c6nf4be78847efafcd8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4957f1ef0805181358l6ee0d16cpf21e90ff933159c0@mail.gmail.com> <5aaed53f0805182028x9b66c25v42b0cbf2d27b38a2@mail.gmail.com> <43c8685c0805182100l1957554er1b88da1914aa9a32@mail.gmail.com> <5aaed53f0805190641r250334c9vdfcd246b5696c8af@mail.gmail.com> <43c8685c0805191706xaeab2c6nf4be78847efafcd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4832DE3B.6010508@unc.edu> On 5/19/2008 8:06 PM, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > http://xkcd.com/386/ Printed. Framed. Hung on the wall. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From carl at personnelware.com Tue May 20 18:40:45 2008 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 11:40:45 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] promotional offer for user groups from Python Magazine In-Reply-To: <1A1DFB91-F268-4819-A602-6BA687BFF297@gmail.com> References: <4CC2F66B-B121-4ED4-91C8-A0824F2E0CC5@gmail.com> <1A1DFB91-F268-4819-A602-6BA687BFF297@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4832FF0D.5050708@personnelware.com> Can you set some deadline for us getting you the list of email addresses? I want to collect addresses, send to you, be done. I don't want to keep sending in more that came in later, and I don't want to be the one to make up some arbitrary date :) Carl K Doug Hellmann wrote: > The response has been good, so to save everyone a little time here are > the details: > > This promotional is open to members of user groups who discuss > Python-related topics. > > To take advantage of the offer, each member of the group should go to > our web site (http://www.pythonmagazine.com) and set up an account > (that's already free). When they register, the site will ask them for > an email address to identify the account. If a single member of the > group sends me a list of all the email addresses used, along with the > name of the user group represented, I'll make sure we enable the > subscriptions. > > Thanks, > Doug > -- > Doug Hellmann > Technical Editor > Python Magazine > > On May 19, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > >> Python Magazine would like to offer free 3 month PDF subscriptions for >> members of Python user groups. If you participate in a user group and >> would like to take advantage of this offer, drop me a line and I will >> give you the details. >> >> Thanks, >> Doug >> -- >> Doug Hellmann >> Technical Editor >> Python Magazine >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > From doug.hellmann at gmail.com Wed May 21 13:48:27 2008 From: doug.hellmann at gmail.com (Doug Hellmann) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 07:48:27 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] promotional offer for user groups from Python Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 11:40:45 -0500 > From: Carl Karsten > Subject: Re: [python-advocacy] promotional offer for user groups from > Python Magazine > To: advocacy at python.org > Message-ID: <4832FF0D.5050708 at personnelware.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Can you set some deadline for us getting you the list of email > addresses? I > want to collect addresses, send to you, be done. I don't want to > keep sending > in more that came in later, and I don't want to be the one to make > up some > arbitrary date :) You want *me* to be the bad guy? :-) Ok, try to have your lists back by 15 June 2008. The news is still trickling out, but by that time it should be old news on the net and everyone should have had a chance to participate. Thanks, Doug > > > Carl K > > Doug Hellmann wrote: >> The response has been good, so to save everyone a little time here >> are >> the details: >> >> This promotional is open to members of user groups who discuss >> Python-related topics. >> >> To take advantage of the offer, each member of the group should go to >> our web site (http://www.pythonmagazine.com) and set up an account >> (that's already free). When they register, the site will ask them >> for >> an email address to identify the account. If a single member of the >> group sends me a list of all the email addresses used, along with the >> name of the user group represented, I'll make sure we enable the >> subscriptions. >> >> Thanks, >> Doug >> -- >> Doug Hellmann >> Technical Editor >> Python Magazine >> >> On May 19, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote: >> >>> Python Magazine would like to offer free 3 month PDF subscriptions >>> for >>> members of Python user groups. If you participate in a user group >>> and >>> would like to take advantage of this offer, drop me a line and I >>> will >>> give you the details. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Doug >>> -- >>> Doug Hellmann >>> Technical Editor >>> Python Magazine From roy at panix.com Sat May 24 14:46:03 2008 From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith) Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 08:46:03 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python culture clash complaint In-Reply-To: <4957f1ef0805181358l6ee0d16cpf21e90ff933159c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4957f1ef0805181358l6ee0d16cpf21e90ff933159c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0D5A9EE7-A7D9-43B0-A2B7-058D63CA712D@panix.com> On May 18, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Brad Allen wrote: > Here is a blog from a developer exploring Python but getting > frustrated with the community attitude... Another example is the thread that's currently going on in comp.lang.python under the subject, "unittest: Calling tests in liner number order". In a nutshell, somebody suggested a change to unittest which people didn't think was a good idea. The OP went to the trouble of reading the sources and posting a diff for the change he was suggesting. In other words, he invested a fair amount of work to suggest what he felt was an improvement and offered his work back to the community. He asked: > Does the following patch has a chance of being introduced in the > standard python distribution? and got back responses such as, > I certainly hope not! and > No and no. If anything, unit test cases should be run in a completely > *non*-deterministic sequence. I know tone is a subtle thing, but if I was the OP, I would come away from the whole exchange feeling like I'd gotten my head bitten off. Nobody said, "Thank you for taking the time to post the diffs..." (actually, I'm working on that response now). -- roy at panix.com From jeffh at dundeemt.com Sat May 24 15:52:17 2008 From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T) Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 08:52:17 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python culture clash complaint In-Reply-To: <0D5A9EE7-A7D9-43B0-A2B7-058D63CA712D@panix.com> References: <4957f1ef0805181358l6ee0d16cpf21e90ff933159c0@mail.gmail.com> <0D5A9EE7-A7D9-43B0-A2B7-058D63CA712D@panix.com> Message-ID: <5aaed53f0805240652h6f64c9w25186445218183e3@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Roy Smith wrote: > On May 18, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Brad Allen wrote: >> >> Here is a blog from a developer exploring Python but getting frustrated >> with the community attitude... > > Another example is the thread that's currently going on in comp.lang.python > under the subject, "unittest: Calling tests in liner number order". > > In a nutshell, somebody suggested a change to unittest which people didn't > think was a good idea. The OP went to the trouble of reading the sources > and posting a diff for the change he was suggesting. In other words, he > invested a fair amount of work to suggest what he felt was an improvement > and offered his work back to the community. He asked: > >> Does the following patch has a chance of being introduced in the >> standard python distribution? > > and got back responses such as, > >> I certainly hope not! > > > and > >> No and no. If anything, unit test cases should be run in a completely >> *non*-deterministic sequence. > > I know tone is a subtle thing, but if I was the OP, I would come away from > the whole exchange feeling like I'd gotten my head bitten off. Nobody said, > "Thank you for taking the time to post the diffs..." (actually, I'm working > on that response now). Here is a link to the posts, so that everyone can read them in context: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/50cc3ca362bbd488# The 2 people that disagreed with the OP both had stated reasons as to why they disagree. They didn't just say "dumb idea." and leave it at that. The second poster encouraged the OP to write why they felt it was necessary, to me that appears to be a call for futher exploration of the topic. While I don't perceive it in the same way as Roy, I am glad that Roy posted his response. I believe that reflection is a necessary part of growth, sometimes we can be too self-critical. We can't control what every person posts to the list and the tone they use. What can be done, is what Roy has done. Lead by example. If you happen to come across a post that you believe is unpythonic, do what you can to rectify that situation. We all are guilty of using to few words or the wrong ones from time to time and we all know that unintentional consequences can occur as a result of a hasty post. (When I say we, I actually mean me, but I'm assuming that I am not a universal anomaly) So in short, do like Roy did. If you are an advocate for Python it doesn't just mean expounding on the virtues of the language, sometimes it means being an ambassador. -Jeff > -- > roy at panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy >