From mtobis at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 03:29:08 2007
From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 20:29:08 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app
In-Reply-To: <565566.68512.qm@web54206.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <43c8685c0705302326q59dda561jbb38dc262b4a05bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<565566.68512.qm@web54206.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3aa55550705311829q55c89c1dqefe6bd9b8818c2d7@mail.gmail.com>

As I understand it, raw_input will be renamed input in 3.0, and the
function currently implemented as input would go away, requiring you
to invoke eval(input("prompt")) if you need its functionality. Thus,
the PEP text you quote doesn't correspond to my understanding, based
on what I took from GvR's keynote at PyCon.

However, this is off topic for these lists and would be better taken
up on c.l.p. where someone in the know will be sure to clarify the
matter.

mt

On 5/31/07, hwg <hwg434 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> This quote is from a PEP which argues for keeping some form of raw_input():
>
>  The proposed plans for Python 3.0 would require the replacement
> of the single statement
>
> speed = raw_input("What is the average airspeed velocity of an unladed
> swallow?")
>
> by the more complicated
>
> import sys
> print("What is the average airspeed
>  velocity of an unladed swallow?")

From hwg434 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  1 19:05:48 2007
From: hwg434 at yahoo.com (hwg)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:05:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app
In-Reply-To: <c3aa55550705311829q55c89c1dqefe6bd9b8818c2d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <843425.32165.qm@web54205.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I don't think it is completely off-topic.  This list is about Python advocacy, and many are advocating Python for education.   I was pointing out something that I think will make Python less suitable for education.  I'm hoping that those who advocate Python's use in education will lobby to keep the features that make it a great teaching language.

If they are just going to rename raw_input(), what's the point?  That only creates a backwards-compatibility problem.  And input() is so fundamental to beginning programming that making it more complicated makes no sense.  It just adds obfuscation, which is the polar opposite of the Python philosophy.

Respectfully,
hwg   

Michael Tobis <mtobis at gmail.com> wrote: As I understand it, raw_input will be renamed input in 3.0, and the
function currently implemented as input would go away, requiring you
to invoke eval(input("prompt")) if you need its functionality. Thus,
the PEP text you quote doesn't correspond to my understanding, based
on what I took from GvR's keynote at PyCon.

However, this is off topic for these lists and would be better taken
up on c.l.p. where someone in the know will be sure to clarify the
matter.

mt

On 5/31/07, hwg  wrote:

> This quote is from a PEP which argues for keeping some form of raw_input():
>
>  The proposed plans for Python 3.0 would require the replacement
> of the single statement
>
> speed = raw_input("What is the average airspeed velocity of an unladed
> swallow?")
>
> by the more complicated
>
> import sys
> print("What is the average airspeed
>  velocity of an unladed swallow?")


 
---------------------------------
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From lac at openend.se  Sat Jun  2 09:22:05 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:22:05 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig]  education as Python killer app
In-Reply-To: Message from "Michael Tobis" <mtobis@gmail.com> of "Thu,
	31 May 2007 20:29:08 CDT."
	<c3aa55550705311829q55c89c1dqefe6bd9b8818c2d7@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <43c8685c0705302326q59dda561jbb38dc262b4a05bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<565566.68512.qm@web54206.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<c3aa55550705311829q55c89c1dqefe6bd9b8818c2d7@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <200706020722.l527M5jD001448@theraft.openend.se>

In a message of Thu, 31 May 2007 20:29:08 CDT, "Michael Tobis" writes:
>As I understand it, raw_input will be renamed input in 3.0, and the
>function currently implemented as input would go away, requiring you
>to invoke eval(input("prompt")) if you need its functionality. Thus,
>the PEP text you quote doesn't correspond to my understanding, based
>on what I took from GvR's keynote at PyCon.
>
>However, this is off topic for these lists and would be better taken
>up on c.l.p. where someone in the know will be sure to clarify the
>matter.
>
>mt

Actually, this is on-topic for edu-sig.  And the person who knows
the most about it you can find there -- Andr? Roberge.  He had
the same objections, and implemented this approved PEP 
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3111/  with Guido von Rossum
at PyCon this year.

Laura


From carl at personnelware.com  Mon Jun  4 06:49:00 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:49:00 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Ubuntu and Python
Message-ID: <466399BC.7030306@personnelware.com>

I just saw this:

"Ubuntu prefers the community to contribute work in Python. We develop our own 
tools and scripts in Python and it's much easier for us to integrate your work 
if you use the same platform."
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/developerzone/bounties

I have been working with Ubuntu for over two years, and didn't realize Python 
was "it."

Carl K

From david at boddie.org.uk  Mon Jun  4 16:03:53 2007
From: david at boddie.org.uk (David Boddie)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 16:03:53 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy]  Ubuntu and Python
Message-ID: <200706041603.53115.david@boddie.org.uk>

On Mon Jun 4 06:49:00 CEST 2007, Carl Karsten wrote:

> I just saw this:
> 
> "Ubuntu prefers the community to contribute work in Python. We develop our
> own tools and scripts in Python and it's much easier for us to integrate
> your work if you use the same platform."
> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/developerzone/bounties
> 
> I have been working with Ubuntu for over two years, and didn't realize
> Python was "it."

Well, strictly speaking, I don't think that Python is "it" in that sentence,
but I know what you mean. :-)

Some GNU/Linux distributions take their use of Python even further:

  http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/index.html
  http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/projects/comar/PythonInPardus.html
  http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/projeler/comar/SpeedingUpLinuxWithPardus.html
  http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/projects/pisi/PiSi.html

David

From carl at personnelware.com  Mon Jun  4 18:05:41 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:05:41 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Ubuntu and Python
In-Reply-To: <200706041603.53115.david@boddie.org.uk>
References: <200706041603.53115.david@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <46643855.7090309@personnelware.com>

David Boddie wrote:
> On Mon Jun 4 06:49:00 CEST 2007, Carl Karsten wrote:
> 
>> I just saw this:
>>
>> "Ubuntu prefers the community to contribute work in Python. We develop our
>> own tools and scripts in Python and it's much easier for us to integrate
>> your work if you use the same platform."
>> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/developerzone/bounties
>>
>> I have been working with Ubuntu for over two years, and didn't realize
>> Python was "it."
> 
> Well, strictly speaking, I don't think that Python is "it" in that sentence,
> but I know what you mean. :-)
> 

that's all that really matters :)

> Some GNU/Linux distributions take their use of Python even further:
> 
>   http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/index.html
>   http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/projects/comar/PythonInPardus.html

"Python is also used almost everywhere in Pardus, from startup system to user 
interfaces. This wasn't intentional. We started using Python in a few places for 
rapid development, however while most of the core developers learned Python 
after joining the project, the use of Python spread almost every areas of Pardus 
development."

That story seems so much more common than "we evaluated various languages and 
picked Python."

I wonder how often the story is "we evaluated and picked X" as opposed to 
"somehow we ended up using X and liked it"

Carl K

From taleinat at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 20:17:04 2007
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:17:04 +0300
Subject: [python-advocacy] Python bug-hunting examples
Message-ID: <7afdee2f0706041117o64206071q5b61cde8e0f8a6c3@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I'd like to suggest making several screencast showing some good
examples of Python debugging. I believe this could go a long way
towards advocating Python. Example debugging sessions (textual),
accompanied by screenshots etc., would also be great.

Here is what got me thinking about this: the #3 most voted for request
on ShowMeDo [1]:
"Seeing how an experienced Python programmer hunts down bugs."

>From my experience, Python is so easy to debug that usually debugging
tools and methods are taught/learned relatively late, if at all. The
short Edit/Run cycle (as opposed to Edit/Compile/Link/Run),
easy-to-use print statement, and out-of-the-box string representations
of objects, make inserting print statements to see what's going on so
easy and useful that's it is enough for many users.

Still, more complex situations do arise. But Python has some great
tools for debugging! And debugging Python is fun and powerful thanks
to its being interpreted, along with full introspection.

In many work environments, debugging takes up a lot of time and is
considered very hard. Showing how debuggable (?) Python is could help
convince potential users of its power and speed (of development with
it).

There are also more advanced debugging scenarios - threads and remote
debugging, just off the top of my head. Showing how to effectively do
these with Python could complement the simpler examples very well.
But, of course, we should start at the beginning.

- Tal Einat

[1] http://showmedo.com/requests

From brad at allendev.com  Tue Jun  5 07:07:28 2007
From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 00:07:28 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Ubuntu and Python
In-Reply-To: <466399BC.7030306@personnelware.com>
References: <466399BC.7030306@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <a06230917c28a9d79510b@[192.168.1.155]>

At 11:49 PM -0500 6/3/07, Carl Karsten wrote:
>I just saw this:
>
>"Ubuntu prefers the community to contribute work in Python. We develop our own
>tools and scripts in Python and it's much easier for us to integrate your work
>if you use the same platform."
>http://www.ubuntu.com/community/developerzone/bounties
>
>I have been working with Ubuntu for over two years, and didn't realize Python
>was "it."

I think Canonical joined PSF as a sponsor member this year, as well. They are
the commercial sponsor of the Ubuntu project.

Their bugtracker, LaunchPad, is written in Python using the Zope 3 framework.

In an Lxer podcast interview last year, I recall that Mark 
Shuttleworth (who founded
Canonical and funded Ubuntu) said good things about Python and why it is so
actively used and supported within Ubuntu. He also mentioned that he himself
did a fair amount of development working using Python prior to founding.

http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/62141/index.html

Unfortunately the audio archives were missing when I tried to download them.

One might think that Shuttleworth would be a great keynote speaker for PyCon,
except I've heard that he dislikes giving speeches.


From brad at allendev.com  Tue Jun  5 07:15:05 2007
From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 00:15:05 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] virtual servers for Python user groups
In-Reply-To: <46520A00.9050808@python.org>
References: <a0623090cc273cb629eeb@[10.0.16.78]> <46520A00.9050808@python.org>
Message-ID: <a06230918c28aa04dfad0@[192.168.1.155]>

At 5:07 PM -0400 5/21/07, David Goodger wrote:
>[Brad Allen]
>>  What do you think of the idea of PSF funding hosted virtual servers
>>  for user groups?
>
>If well executed, it sounds like a good idea.
>This is what someone needs to do:
>
>Write up a proposal, with full details:
>
>* who the server/service is for (both in the abstract and concrete, 
>e.g. names)
>* what it consists of
>* where & how the server/service will be physically hosted
>* how will it be managed
>* who will manage & maintain it (names)
>* what URLs would it use (*.groups.python.org?  groups.python.org/*?  Other?)
>* how much it will cost (initially and as it scales)
>
>Submit the proposal to the PSF Board of Directors (psf-board at python.org).


Well, I have not submitted a proposal yet, but I will try to put something
together in the near future if no one else has already begun work on this.

However, it would help to have more discussion of the topic, and to
find out if any user groups are really interested in this idea.

It would probably be a good topic to bring up on the new user group organizers
list, but I don't think that list has been formally announced yet and I am not
sure how many people/groups have yet joined. I guess I will ping that list to
see if anyone is there yet...


From brad at allendev.com  Tue Jun  5 07:22:00 2007
From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 00:22:00 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] which user group organizer/advocacy list?
Message-ID: <a0623091ac28aa2b08a23@[192.168.1.155]>

There are two user group themed mailing lists at Python.org. Do we 
really need both?

http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers   "Support 
and Mentoring of Usergroup Organizers (Current or Wannabe)"

http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/usergroup-advocacy 
"Promoting Python user groups."

From lac at openend.se  Tue Jun  5 11:57:19 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:57:19 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] Ubuntu and Python
In-Reply-To: Message from Brad Allen <brad@allendev.com> of "Tue,
	05 Jun 2007 00:07:28 CDT." <a06230917c28a9d79510b@[192.168.1.155]> 
References: <466399BC.7030306@personnelware.com>
	<a06230917c28a9d79510b@[192.168.1.155]> 
Message-ID: <200706050957.l559vJAg003539@theraft.openend.se>

<snip>
>One might think that Shuttleworth would be a great keynote speaker for Py
>Con,
>except I've heard that he dislikes giving speeches.

He was great as a Europython keynoter in 2004. 

Laura

From goodger at python.org  Tue Jun  5 15:03:52 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 09:03:52 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Ubuntu and Python
In-Reply-To: <a06230917c28a9d79510b@192.168.1.155>
References: <466399BC.7030306@personnelware.com>
	<a06230917c28a9d79510b@192.168.1.155>
Message-ID: <4335d2c40706050603w692bd02ag5fec78abf0f76743@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/5/07, Brad Allen <brad at allendev.com> wrote:
> One might think that Shuttleworth would be a great keynote speaker for
> PyCon, except I've heard that he dislikes giving speeches.

He's been invited before, but due to his schedule (and dislike of
giving speeches, possibly) was unable to participate.  Certainly he'd
be a good candidate in the future!

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Tue Jun  5 15:52:43 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 09:52:43 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] which user group organizer/advocacy list?
In-Reply-To: <a0623091ac28aa2b08a23@[192.168.1.155]>
References: <a0623091ac28aa2b08a23@[192.168.1.155]>
Message-ID: <46656AAB.10207@wingware.com>

Brad Allen wrote:
> There are two user group themed mailing lists at Python.org. Do we 
> really need both?
> 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers   "Support 
> and Mentoring of Usergroup Organizers (Current or Wannabe)"
> 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/usergroup-advocacy 
> "Promoting Python user groups."

I think the intention was for the latter to focus on building tools
and support, and the former as helping group leaders, but from past
experience with such splits I'd recommend combining them.

They have different membership, with fewer members and no messages
yet on group-organizers so perhaps that one should be removed
and the members moved over.

OTOH, group-organizers may be a more descriptive name in the long run.
I expect the focus would change over time from tool building to general
support.

- Stephan

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Tue Jun  5 16:25:04 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:25:04 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] virtual servers for Python user groups
In-Reply-To: <a06230918c28aa04dfad0@[192.168.1.155]>
References: <a0623090cc273cb629eeb@[10.0.16.78]> <46520A00.9050808@python.org>
	<a06230918c28aa04dfad0@[192.168.1.155]>
Message-ID: <46657240.1060105@wingware.com>

Brad Allen wrote:
> It would probably be a good topic to bring up on the new user group organizers
> list, but I don't think that list has been formally announced yet and I am not
> sure how many people/groups have yet joined. I guess I will ping that list to
> see if anyone is there yet...

The mailing list should certainly be announced widely before starting discussion
and I'm pretty sure neither of the two lists was announced.  Was the users group
blog also not announced beyond the advocacy and user group lists?

FWIW, I've just linked them all into here:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/LocalUserGroups

It's quite possible that more pages should be added to python.org for things
like "Starting a Users Group" and only the listing of groups left in the wiki,
but I just added the info there for now.

This email seems rather cross-posted, but I'm leaving the reply list as
is.  Sorry for any duplicates!

- Stephan

From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 06:33:33 2007
From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:33:33 +1000
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
Message-ID: <43c8685c0706052133r5ad145c5vd66e65204117894f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I am looking to host some code in association with The Python Papers. I had
been intending to use Google Code (indeed, I have already started down this
path). However, it occurs to me to wonder if this is the best place for it.
Is there a Python-recommended project hosting site?

Cheers,
-T
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From jeff at taupro.com  Wed Jun  6 11:27:07 2007
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:27:07 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Python bug-hunting examples
In-Reply-To: <7afdee2f0706041117o64206071q5b61cde8e0f8a6c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7afdee2f0706041117o64206071q5b61cde8e0f8a6c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46667DEB.70308@taupro.com>

Tal Einat wrote:
> 
> I'd like to suggest making several screencast showing some good
> examples of Python debugging. I believe this could go a long way
> towards advocating Python. Example debugging sessions (textual),
> accompanied by screenshots etc., would also be great.

Tal, this would be a good topic.  I know many have asked for it on
showmedo.com.  Are you able to provide some of these, in short form perhaps,
or know someone who can?

-Jeff


From sdeibel at wingware.com  Wed Jun  6 16:37:18 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:37:18 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0706052133r5ad145c5vd66e65204117894f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <43c8685c0706052133r5ad145c5vd66e65204117894f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4666C69E.7040008@wingware.com>

Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
> I am looking to host some code in association with The Python Papers. I 
> had been intending to use Google Code (indeed, I have already started 
> down this path). However, it occurs to me to wonder if this is the best 
> place for it. Is there a Python-recommended project hosting site?

There's no standard for Python other than attempting to flee
Source Forge of course! ;-)

Maybe this is useful, if a bit old:

http://www.ibiblio.org/fosphost/exhost.htm

BerliOS is the other one I've seen used a fair amount.

I'd personally avoid one that doesn't have subversion, though
(and I expect the above link from 2004 may not be up to date
in that respect).

- Stephan

From grig at gheorghiu.net  Wed Jun  6 17:55:42 2007
From: grig at gheorghiu.net (Grig Gheorghiu)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:55:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
In-Reply-To: <4666C69E.7040008@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <332740.4364.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Stephan Deibel <sdeibel at wingware.com> wrote:

> Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
> > I am looking to host some code in association with The Python
> Papers. I 
> > had been intending to use Google Code (indeed, I have already
> started 
> > down this path). However, it occurs to me to wonder if this is the
> best 
> > place for it. Is there a Python-recommended project hosting site?
> 
> There's no standard for Python other than attempting to flee
> Source Forge of course! ;-)
> 
> Maybe this is useful, if a bit old:
> 
> http://www.ibiblio.org/fosphost/exhost.htm
> 
> BerliOS is the other one I've seen used a fair amount.
> 
> I'd personally avoid one that doesn't have subversion, though
> (and I expect the above link from 2004 may not be up to date
> in that respect).
> 

I'd go for google code. Some of the Python projects I know used to be
hosted at python-hosting.com, but many of them have migrated to google
code for better reliability.

Grig

From jeff at taupro.com  Wed Jun  6 22:48:35 2007
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 15:48:35 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] which user group organizer/advocacy list?
In-Reply-To: <46656AAB.10207@wingware.com>
References: <a0623091ac28aa2b08a23@[192.168.1.155]>
	<46656AAB.10207@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <46671DA3.9070109@taupro.com>

Stephan Deibel wrote:
> Brad Allen wrote:
>> There are two user group themed mailing lists at Python.org. Do we 
>> really need both?
>>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers   "Support 
>> and Mentoring of Usergroup Organizers (Current or Wannabe)"
>>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/usergroup-advocacy 
>> "Promoting Python user groups."

The lists have different focuses (focuii).  The "usergroup-advocacy" is a
private list of 5 people who volunteered at PyCon during the Advocacy BOF to
serve on a committee guiding the usergroup outreach efforts.  Topics are tools
needed, steps to be taken, policies to be created to encourage groups.  It's
sort of an advisory group to help me.

The "group-organizers" list is one that is open to anyone who helps run a
usergroup, or that wants to start one in their area.  It is for the mentoring
of new group leaders, and as a forum for sharing successful techniques for
running usergroups.

I'd been holding off on announcing the second list, until I had written up the
"How to Start and Run a Successful Usergroup" document, so we could discuss
the content there, but haven't finished that so heck, I'll just announce it
today anyway.

-Jeff

From jeff at taupro.com  Wed Jun  6 23:17:33 2007
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:17:33 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Thanks for Community Efforts on Forrester
	Research Survey
Message-ID: <4667246D.1080103@taupro.com>

I would like to thank everyone that contributed to the recent effort to
respond to the survey on Dynamic Languages by Forrester Research.  I really
appreciate the many notes, advice and links I received in private mail and
believe it gave our community a strong lead.  All material, including the four
samples of source code provided by volunteers have been submitted to
Forrester.  They will provide to us a first draft for fact checking on June 8th.

They also later interviewed me about the responses, seeking general input on
the strengths of Python not covered in the survey form and clarification on
certain points.  Some of their questions were interesting.

One was how is consistency maintained across the various implementations of
Python.  What checks are in place to prevent forking of the language and
feature creep?

Another was about a security committee that watches for security weaknesses in
implementations and privately fixes them before they become a problem.  I know
there is such a committee but don't see it given much visibility.

And the last question, a bit odd, is whether multiple inheritance is unique to
Python, in the class of dynamic languages that excludes Smalltalk and compiled
languages.

Soon we'll see how we stack up to the other dynamic languages, but in any case
it is good to see this class of languages getting improved visibility in the
IT world.  I think we've also helped Forrester understand the world of open
source better, and emphasized to them that there is more to dynamic languages
than the web.

Jeff Rush
Python Advocacy Coordinator

From guido at python.org  Wed Jun  6 23:20:51 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:20:51 -0700
Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Thanks for Community Efforts on
	Forrester Research Survey
In-Reply-To: <4667246D.1080103@taupro.com>
References: <4667246D.1080103@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20706061420p960da55q3a30cf74d474bf6@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/6/07, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:
> I would like to thank everyone that contributed to the recent effort to
> respond to the survey on Dynamic Languages by Forrester Research.  I really
> appreciate the many notes, advice and links I received in private mail and
> believe it gave our community a strong lead.  All material, including the four
> samples of source code provided by volunteers have been submitted to
> Forrester.  They will provide to us a first draft for fact checking on June 8th.
>
> They also later interviewed me about the responses, seeking general input on
> the strengths of Python not covered in the survey form and clarification on
> certain points.  Some of their questions were interesting.
>
> One was how is consistency maintained across the various implementations of
> Python.  What checks are in place to prevent forking of the language and
> feature creep?

The authors/maintainers of IronPython, Jython and PyPy all use
CPython's extensive suite of automated test ("unit tests" is really a
misnomer for the test suite) to check conformance. There are also
areas where the test suite is understood to verify CPython
implementation details which other implementations are free to ignore.

We don't really have a mechanism in place to prevent feature creep in
those versions; I trust their developers (even MS's IronPython, which
is spearheaded by a long-time Python developer). I also expect that
end users would give them a hard time for unnecessary deviations. Open
source helps here IMO.

> Another was about a security committee that watches for security weaknesses in
> implementations and privately fixes them before they become a problem.  I know
> there is such a committee but don't see it given much visibility.

Mail to security at python.org or Google for that exact term. The
committee mostly works behind the scenes, distributing patches to
vendors.

> And the last question, a bit odd, is whether multiple inheritance is unique to
> Python, in the class of dynamic languages that excludes Smalltalk and compiled
> languages.

Gee, I don't know. I always assumed Ruby and Perl would support it
too. Maybe it *is* unique though?

> Soon we'll see how we stack up to the other dynamic languages, but in any case
> it is good to see this class of languages getting improved visibility in the
> IT world.  I think we've also helped Forrester understand the world of open
> source better, and emphasized to them that there is more to dynamic languages
> than the web.

I find the purpose of educating Forrester a lot more important than
seeing "how we stack up". I'm getting tired of people proposing that
Python should grow feature X with no more justification than that Ruby
or Javascript supports it. Or threatening to learn Ruby if their
proposal isn't accepted.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 00:38:07 2007
From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 08:38:07 +1000
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
In-Reply-To: <332740.4364.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <4666C69E.7040008@wingware.com>
	<332740.4364.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <43c8685c0706061538q19c4fb86w506d1e5e17d576f1@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for your responses. I think I'll just stick to Google Code since
there seems to be no "recommended" Python-preferred alternative.

Cheers,
-T

On 6/7/07, Grig Gheorghiu <grig at gheorghiu.net> wrote:
>
> --- Stephan Deibel <sdeibel at wingware.com> wrote:
>
> > Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
> > > I am looking to host some code in association with The Python
> > Papers. I
> > > had been intending to use Google Code (indeed, I have already
> > started
> > > down this path). However, it occurs to me to wonder if this is the
> > best
> > > place for it. Is there a Python-recommended project hosting site?
> >
> > There's no standard for Python other than attempting to flee
> > Source Forge of course! ;-)
> >
> > Maybe this is useful, if a bit old:
> >
> > http://www.ibiblio.org/fosphost/exhost.htm
> >
> > BerliOS is the other one I've seen used a fair amount.
> >
> > I'd personally avoid one that doesn't have subversion, though
> > (and I expect the above link from 2004 may not be up to date
> > in that respect).
> >
>
> I'd go for google code. Some of the Python projects I know used to be
> hosted at python-hosting.com, but many of them have migrated to google
> code for better reliability.
>
> Grig
>
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From jeff at taupro.com  Thu Jun  7 09:35:57 2007
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 02:35:57 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Calling Usergroup Organizers (and Wannabees)
Message-ID: <4667B55D.7040301@taupro.com>

We'd like to strengthen and raise the visibility of Python usergroups and
foster the creation of new ones, by sharing the valuable experiences of those
leaders around the community who make it happen.

[1] One step is to make others more aware of what is already happening,
    perhaps in their own neighborhood re Python meetings.  I've created a
    shared blog and invite organizers of existing groups to send me their
    email address to get privs to post to it.

        http://python-groups.blogspot.com/

    Because these postings will be distributed far and wide, a posting should
    be of interest to those who did not attend but are considering doing so,
    or that might be instructive to organizers in other cities. An overview of
    what was covered in a past meeting, or an announcement with substance on
    what an upcoming meeting is going to be about are good postings.  A simple
    date and local address, or that the pizza was good last week, is not. ;-)

[2] A second step is to encourage and support new organizers in forming groups
    in their area.  There is a strong demand for such meetings, but many are
    uncertain how to go about it.  Therefore I've created a new mailing list
    on which experienced and new organizers can share tips on getting started,
    whether about getting the word out, finding a place to meet or getting
    interesting speakers.

        http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers

Those of us with a history of involvement in a usergroup often forget that
many people have never attended a usergroup meeting, or lack experience in
running one, so let's help strengthen this aspect of Python.  We could use
some videos or photos of group meetings as well, posted to
youtube.com/flickr.com and the link emailed to me for use.

I'd also like to reach out to the existing, successful usergroups and ask them
to spread the word about their efforts by being interviewed by Ron Stephens on
Python411, and/or writing up an article on how your group got started for
Tennessee Leeuwenburg of _The Python Papers_.  Even a simple "what a typical
meeting is like in my area" is helpful.

    http://www.awaretek.com/python/index.html
    http://pythonpapers.cgpublisher.com/

It would be especially interesting to see how usergroups operate in various
countries around the world, and perhaps help bring together these regions.

In closing, please, for existing usergroups as well as new ones coming online,
update the entry for your group on the roster of Python usergroups.

    http://wiki.python.org/moin/LocalUserGroups

Jeff Rush
Advocacy Coordinator

From brad at allendev.com  Thu Jun  7 14:10:39 2007
From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 07:10:39 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0706061538q19c4fb86w506d1e5e17d576f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4666C69E.7040008@wingware.com>
	<332740.4364.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<43c8685c0706061538q19c4fb86w506d1e5e17d576f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a06230923c28da5f04dad@[192.168.1.155]>


Here's another worth looking at: WebFaction

http://www.webfaction.com/

"As both python and open-source lovers we're happy to offer free 
trac/subversion hosting for open-source python projects. We already 
host more than 400 of them."

From lac at openend.se  Thu Jun  7 15:30:28 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:30:28 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Thanks for Community Efforts on
	Forrester Research Survey
In-Reply-To: Message from "Guido van Rossum" <guido@python.org> of "Wed,
	06 Jun 2007 14:20:51 PDT."
	<ca471dc20706061420p960da55q3a30cf74d474bf6@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <4667246D.1080103@taupro.com>
	<ca471dc20706061420p960da55q3a30cf74d474bf6@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <200706071330.l57DUSSB013977@theraft.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 06 Jun 2007 14:20:51 PDT, "Guido van Rossum" writes:
<snip>
>> And the last question, a bit odd, is whether multiple inheritance is un
>ique to
>> Python, in the class of dynamic languages that excludes Smalltalk and c
>ompiled
>> languages.
>
>Gee, I don't know. I always assumed Ruby and Perl would support it
>too. Maybe it *is* unique though?

Perl yes.  Ruby no, at least for the defintion of multiple inheritance
that I use.  They do have support for what they call mixins, which
sort-of accomplishes the same thing.  A mixin is a class that cannot be
instatiatied and that does not live in the class hierarchy.  So Ruby
is able to keep a tree structure hierarchy, while Python ends up with a
digraph.  What _Forrester_ considers multiple inheritance, though, only
Forrester knows.

>I find the purpose of educating Forrester a lot more important than
>seeing "how we stack up". I'm getting tired of people proposing that
>Python should grow feature X with no more justification than that Ruby
>or Javascript supports it. Or threatening to learn Ruby if their
>proposal isn't accepted.

Hear Hear!

Laura 

>
>-- 
>--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)


From sdeibel at wingware.com  Thu Jun  7 16:04:36 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 10:04:36 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
In-Reply-To: <a06230923c28da5f04dad@[192.168.1.155]>
References: <4666C69E.7040008@wingware.com>	<332740.4364.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<43c8685c0706061538q19c4fb86w506d1e5e17d576f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<a06230923c28da5f04dad@[192.168.1.155]>
Message-ID: <46681074.7050607@wingware.com>

Brad Allen wrote:
> Here's another worth looking at: WebFaction
> 
> http://www.webfaction.com/
> 
> "As both python and open-source lovers we're happy to offer free 
> trac/subversion hosting for open-source python projects. We already 
> host more than 400 of them."

Although if you following the link it says:

"""We're sorry, we're not longer accepting applications for free trac/svn
accounts. People have left their Trac sites unattended and as a result
our server is being flooded with spam. We need to do some serious cleanup
and when that's done we'll accept new applications again (that might take
weeks, if not months though)."""

Doesn't sound too promising....

Trac is a pain to manage -- I got really tired of dealing w/ wiki and bug
tracker spam on pydotorg.python.org and was unable to control spam without
shutting down self-service account creation.

- Stephan

From tonyt at logyst.com  Thu Jun  7 17:02:42 2007
From: tonyt at logyst.com (Tony Theodore)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 01:02:42 +1000
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
In-Reply-To: <a06230923c28da5f04dad@[192.168.1.155]>
References: <4666C69E.7040008@wingware.com>	<332740.4364.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<43c8685c0706061538q19c4fb86w506d1e5e17d576f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<a06230923c28da5f04dad@[192.168.1.155]>
Message-ID: <004201c7a914$e66112b0$b3233810$@com>


> Here's another worth looking at: WebFaction
> 
> http://www.webfaction.com/
> 
> "As both python and open-source lovers we're happy to offer free
> trac/subversion hosting for open-source python projects. We already
> host more than 400 of them."

This was once python-hosting.com, mentioned earlier in this thread. I've
heard they've had reliability problems; but I've also heard they can handle
it for others (http://amix.dk/blog/viewEntry/169 ), for themselves
(http://blog.webfaction.com/staying-cool-when-digged-and-slashdotted ), and
my experience with them (mostly support/configuration questions/requests)
has been such that I'd recommend them if you want to tailor your hosting.
You've got the ready-made pieces via a control-panel, shell access, and
excellent support. And no, I'm not affiliated in any way.

Regards,

Tony


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Thu Jun  7 23:13:02 2007
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:13:02 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
In-Reply-To: <46681074.7050607@wingware.com>
References: <4666C69E.7040008@wingware.com>
	<a06230923c28da5f04dad@[192.168.1.155]> <46681074.7050607@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <200706072313.02974.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Thursday 07 June 2007 16:04, Stephan Deibel wrote:
>
> Trac is a pain to manage -- I got really tired of dealing w/ wiki and bug
> tracker spam on pydotorg.python.org and was unable to control spam without
> shutting down self-service account creation.

Having any public Internet service of this nature involves fairly strict 
measures to prevent spam. Obviously MoinMoin has some anti-spam measures, and 
there was talk of introducing SpamBayes into the MoinMoin editing pipeline to 
reduce the impact of spam still further: currently, the python.org Wiki 
requires regular intervention from volunteers to keep the content clean.

I envisage a few initiatives here:

  * Increased SpamBayes integration with various Python systems, eg. MoinMoin,
    Roundup, Trac, etc.

  * Some user registration interoperability between such common Python-based
    systems.

  * Snapshots of user-edited content for reference purposes: being able to
    refer people to the useful python.org Wiki content without the risk of it
    being heavily spammed when they visit it. (Read some of the Wikipedia
    horror stories for sufficient justification here.)

It would be great to see these initiatives moved forward in some way, and this 
might make an interesting sprinting opportunity for EuroPython [*] if there 
are enough interested parties attending.

Paul

[*] Monday 9th - Wednesday 11th July, Vilnius, Lithuania. Early registration 
deadline is the end of Friday (CET)!

From facundo at taniquetil.com.ar  Thu Jun  7 21:45:20 2007
From: facundo at taniquetil.com.ar (Facundo Batista)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:45:20 -0300
Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Thanks for Community Efforts on
 Forrester Research Survey
In-Reply-To: <4667246D.1080103@taupro.com>
References: <4667246D.1080103@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <46686050.5000904@taniquetil.com.ar>

Jeff Rush escribi?:

> I would like to thank everyone that contributed to the recent effort to
> respond to the survey on Dynamic Languages by Forrester Research.  I really

I'd like to thank you!

The paper is *very* interesting (to me at least, that quite knows Python), and is now part of my reference material when 
any of my colleagues or students ask for a very detailed explanation of what Python can do, how it compares with other 
languages, etc.

The answer to question 77, in particular, was so great, that I even post its translation in my blog, :)

Thanks again.

Regards,

-- 
.   Facundo
.
Blog: http://www.taniquetil.com.ar/plog/
PyAr: http://www.python.org/ar/

From jeff at taupro.com  Tue Jun 12 09:39:51 2007
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 02:39:51 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Calling for Python Writers/Authors
Message-ID: <466E4DC7.5010906@taupro.com>

For those who write books and articles, I've established a wiki page just as
we already have a page for those who offer training services for Python.  If
you would like to be reachable by those needing writing services of various
kinds, please add yourself to the list, along with some indication of what you
prefer to work on, your portfolio of work and your experience level:

  http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWriters

I'm open to creative ideas on how to format the information.  A link to the
page has been added to the sidebar menu under "Community".

Jeff Rush
Advocacy Coordinator

From ian at showmedo.com  Fri Jun 15 13:01:06 2007
From: ian at showmedo.com (Ian Ozsvald)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:01:06 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
Message-ID: <13241.213.53.148.66.1181905266.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>

Re. WebFaction - we happily use them for ShowMeDo.com, Remi (the host) is
a great chap, quick to respond and happy to help.  He's also just 'up the
road' from us in London so offers better support hours for Europeans than
US hosting.

Just this week we've had some database stability problems but Remi and I
are working on them and I expect them to be fixed soon - this is the
*first* stability issue we've had in our 6 months at WebFaction so I'm
quite happy to recommend WebFaction.  It is nice to be able to trust my
host to get things sorted and to talk me through what's going on.

Contrast this to *some* commodity hosting companies and the lack of
support you can be faced with...

Remi does still offer open-source hosting, he just took down the public
announce as too many people setup free hosting accounts and never used
them - leaving him with a support headache.

He's very approachable and very pro-Python, I encourage you to have a chat
with him if you're at all interested.

My 2p,
Ian.

----
http://ShowMeDo.com
http://ShowMeDo.com/about (our pictures)
http://blog.ShowMeDo.com
http://forums.ShowMeDo.com
Ian at ShowMeDo.com

From sfreader at sbcglobal.net  Sat Jun 16 09:31:59 2007
From: sfreader at sbcglobal.net (Ralph)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:31:59 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
Message-ID: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Howdy,
  At Pycon, a group of us were talking about Jeff Rush doing a monthly
podcast.  It would be called something like the Python Project of the
Month.
  The prospectus Jeff would send out would look something like:

  The idea of the podcast is to focus on one Python project each month
and show how it can be used.  This is not a contest to pick the top
Python project, but a look at something I find interesting.  I know that
I want to learn more about each of these projects and I believe what I
find may be of interest to others.  We may be doing interviews with
people who create or use these projects already, but the focus will be
on explaining how they work and creating a Python program to use the
selected project.

  We want to pick 12 projects to start off.  I figure there will be some
good reason to reject some of these, so I am offering an initial 16
projects.

Nabu  http://furius.ca/nabu/
http://xmpppy.sourceforge.net/  xmpppy: the jabber python project
PyBlosxom http://pyblosxom.sourceforge.net/
Freevo http://freevo.sourceforge.net/
Crunchy http://code.google.com/p/crunchy/
PIL http://www.pythonware.com/products/pil
Pyjamas  http://pyjamas.pyworks.org/
Burn http://www.bigpaul.org/burn/
Luma  http://luma.sourceforge.net
gajim  http://www.gajim.org
GmailFS  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GmailFS
paramiko  http://www.lag.net/paramiko/
Mechanize http://wwwsearch.sourceforge.net/mechanize/
Mutagen http://www.sacredchao.net/quodlibet/wiki/Development/Mutagen
psycopg 2  http://www.initd.org/tracker/psycopg/wiki/PsycopgTwo
pyinotify http://pyinotify.sourceforge.net/

  Does anyone else think this is a useful idea?  Ron Stevens seemed to
like it.




From lac at openend.se  Sat Jun 16 18:18:25 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 18:18:25 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: Message from Ralph <sfreader@sbcglobal.net> of "Sat,
	16 Jun 2007 02:31:59 CDT."
	<1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
Message-ID: <200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>

In a message of Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:31:59 CDT, Ralph writes:
>Howdy,
>  At Pycon, a group of us were talking about Jeff Rush doing a monthly
>podcast.  It would be called something like the Python Project of the
>Month.
>  The prospectus Jeff would send out would look something like:
>
>  The idea of the podcast is to focus on one Python project each month
>and show how it can be used.  This is not a contest to pick the top
>Python project, but a look at something I find interesting.  I know that
>I want to learn more about each of these projects and I believe what I
>find may be of interest to others.  We may be doing interviews with
>people who create or use these projects already, but the focus will be
>on explaining how they work and creating a Python program to use the
>selected project.
>
>  We want to pick 12 projects to start off.  I figure there will be some
>good reason to reject some of these, so I am offering an initial 16
>projects.

I'm fine with the concept.

>
>Nabu  http://furius.ca/nabu/
>http://xmpppy.sourceforge.net/  xmpppy: the jabber python project
>PyBlosxom http://pyblosxom.sourceforge.net/
>Freevo http://freevo.sourceforge.net/
>Crunchy http://code.google.com/p/crunchy/
>PIL http://www.pythonware.com/products/pil
>Pyjamas  http://pyjamas.pyworks.org/
>Burn http://www.bigpaul.org/burn/
>Luma  http://luma.sourceforge.net
>gajim  http://www.gajim.org
>GmailFS  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GmailFS
>paramiko  http://www.lag.net/paramiko/
>Mechanize http://wwwsearch.sourceforge.net/mechanize/
>Mutagen http://www.sacredchao.net/quodlibet/wiki/Development/Mutagen
>psycopg 2  http://www.initd.org/tracker/psycopg/wiki/PsycopgTwo
>pyinotify http://pyinotify.sourceforge.net/

There are very few of these projects I either know about nor have
any current interest in knowing about.  Perhaps this means that
you are a better magnet-for-cool than I am.  If so, these podcasts
should be a sure hit.  But if not, perhaps we should ask on
comp.lang.python for suggestions on what to produce.  

We have a serious dilemmna here -- by publishing a thing we can seem
to endorse it.  Guido van Rosum created this sort of problem,
inadvertantly, by publically liking Django.  One heck of a lot of
people of small brains decided that Django was 'it' -- blessed by the
dictator -- despite the fact that Django is only designed for certain
things, and thus, especially if you have other things to do, you might
be interested in Newov, or Turbo Gears, or Pylons ...

>
>  Does anyone else think this is a useful idea?  Ron Stevens seemed to
>like it.

It is useful, but it is also dangerous.  Just making sure we are
all warned before we go burn ourselves. ...

>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Advocacy mailing list
>Advocacy at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy

From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Sat Jun 16 18:28:28 2007
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:28:28 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
Message-ID: <46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>

Laura Creighton wrote:
>> Nabu  http://furius.ca/nabu/
>> http://xmpppy.sourceforge.net/  xmpppy: the jabber python project
>> PyBlosxom http://pyblosxom.sourceforge.net/
>> Freevo http://freevo.sourceforge.net/
>> Crunchy http://code.google.com/p/crunchy/
>> PIL http://www.pythonware.com/products/pil
>> Pyjamas  http://pyjamas.pyworks.org/
>> Burn http://www.bigpaul.org/burn/
>> Luma  http://luma.sourceforge.net
>> gajim  http://www.gajim.org
>> GmailFS  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GmailFS
>> paramiko  http://www.lag.net/paramiko/
>> Mechanize http://wwwsearch.sourceforge.net/mechanize/
>> Mutagen http://www.sacredchao.net/quodlibet/wiki/Development/Mutagen
>> psycopg 2  http://www.initd.org/tracker/psycopg/wiki/PsycopgTwo
>> pyinotify http://pyinotify.sourceforge.net/
>>     
>
> There are very few of these projects I either know about nor have
> any current interest in knowing about.  Perhaps this means that
> you are a better magnet-for-cool than I am.  If so, these podcasts
> should be a sure hit.  But if not, perhaps we should ask on
> comp.lang.python for suggestions on what to produce.  
>   
>

Agreed. :-)

The concept is great but the choice of projects seems 'esoteric'. Is it 
a deliberate choice to not stick to mainstream projects.

My *personal* suggestions would be (some of which are included in your 
list):

* docutils
* PIL
* wxPython (possibly and/or Dabo)
* SciPy
* matplotlib
* twisted
* crunchy
* Pyjamas
* Django (Turbgears and Pylons are both great projects and *equally* 
deserving of coverage - but would this be too much of a web-app focus)
* IPython
* py2exe
* pygame
* pywin32
* setuptools
* SQLObject or SQLAlchemy
* Mechanize
* BeautifulSoup

There's a few anyway...

I would even include ctypes, ElementTree and sqlite - even though they 
are now part of the standard library.

Oh, and there is always Zope. ;-)

All the best,

Michael Foord







From kryswilken at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 20:24:37 2007
From: kryswilken at gmail.com (Krys Wilken)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:24:37 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
In-Reply-To: <mailman.25.1181988007.14946.advocacy@python.org>
References: <mailman.25.1181988007.14946.advocacy@python.org>
Message-ID: <200706161424.37592.kryswilken@gmail.com>

Hi list,

I just wanted to say that I am happily running my python webapps at 
textdrive.com.  They are big fans of dynamic languages and support them.

I have heard many good things from many people about webfaction, but choice is 
good, so textdrive.com is worth checking out too.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Krys

On Saturday 16 June 2007 06:00, advocacy-request at python.org wrote:
>
> Re. WebFaction - we happily use them for ShowMeDo.com, Remi (the host) is
> a great chap, quick to respond and happy to help.  He's also just 'up the
> road' from us in London so offers better support hours for Europeans than
> US hosting.
>
> Just this week we've had some database stability problems but Remi and I
> are working on them and I expect them to be fixed soon - this is the
> *first* stability issue we've had in our 6 months at WebFaction so I'm
> quite happy to recommend WebFaction.  It is nice to be able to trust my
> host to get things sorted and to talk me through what's going on.
>
> Contrast this to *some* commodity hosting companies and the lack of
> support you can be faced with...
>
> Remi does still offer open-source hosting, he just took down the public
> announce as too many people setup free hosting accounts and never used
> them - leaving him with a support headache.
>
> He's very approachable and very pro-Python, I encourage you to have a chat
> with him if you're at all interested.
>
> My 2p,
> Ian.
>
> ----
> http://ShowMeDo.com
> http://ShowMeDo.com/about (our pictures)
> http://blog.ShowMeDo.com
> http://forums.ShowMeDo.com
> Ian at ShowMeDo.com
>

From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 00:36:19 2007
From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 08:36:19 +1000
Subject: [python-advocacy] Best place for Python code hosting
In-Reply-To: <200706161424.37592.kryswilken@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.25.1181988007.14946.advocacy@python.org>
	<200706161424.37592.kryswilken@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43c8685c0706161536o12771430oeb70234dc7deb462@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/17/07, Krys Wilken <kryswilken at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi list,
>
> I just wanted to say that I am happily running my python webapps at
> textdrive.com.  They are big fans of dynamic languages and support them.
>
> I have heard many good things from many people about webfaction, but
> choice is
> good, so textdrive.com is worth checking out too.
>
> Anyway, hope this helps.
>
> Krys
>
> On Saturday 16 June 2007 06:00, advocacy-request at python.org wrote:
> >
> > Re. WebFaction - we happily use them for ShowMeDo.com, Remi (the host)
> is
> > a great chap, quick to respond and happy to help.  He's also just 'up
> the
> > road' from us in London so offers better support hours for Europeans
> than
> > US hosting.
> >
> > Just this week we've had some database stability problems but Remi and I
> > are working on them and I expect them to be fixed soon - this is the
> > *first* stability issue we've had in our 6 months at WebFaction so I'm
> > quite happy to recommend WebFaction.  It is nice to be able to trust my
> > host to get things sorted and to talk me through what's going on.
> >
> > Contrast this to *some* commodity hosting companies and the lack of
> > support you can be faced with...
> >
> > Remi does still offer open-source hosting, he just took down the public
> > announce as too many people setup free hosting accounts and never used
> > them - leaving him with a support headache.
> >
> > He's very approachable and very pro-Python, I encourage you to have a
> chat
> > with him if you're at all interested.
> >
> > My 2p,
> > Ian.
> >
> > ----
> > http://ShowMeDo.com
> > http://ShowMeDo.com/about (our pictures)
> > http://blog.ShowMeDo.com
> > http://forums.ShowMeDo.com
> > Ian at ShowMeDo.com
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>
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From sfreader at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jun 17 02:06:50 2007
From: sfreader at sbcglobal.net (Ralph)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 19:06:50 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
Message-ID: <1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Howdy,
   I would say it is a good thing if you have not heard of most of the
projects.  That was pretty much the idea.  I wanted to pick projects
that looked interesting and would be new to most people.  I am sure that
not every project would appeal to all, but I hope that as the project
proceeds, that more and more people would find them worth learning
about.  And, I think every project must be one that Jeff really finds
somewhat interesting, or he won't be as motivated.  So, I bet Jeff will
knock some off the list.  I would like to get other specific
suggestions.  I don't think there should be a public vote, but
suggestions that a small group of people review would be great.  The
plan is that a few of the other locals will help Jeff write up scripts
and plan the podcasts.  But, when they come out each month, the topic
should be a surprise.  I want people to look forward to checking out
what his project is.  Your concern about being seen to endorse a project
is one I have thought about.  We need to say somehow that this is
basically a research project.  The projects we talk about are good
enough to be worth learning about.  The fact that we will be cranking
them out once a month should also help to allay that concern. Jeff is
certainly a leader in the local Python community and is making strides
in the bigger community.  Buy, I don't think his endorsement, if these
are perceived as endorsements, will carry similar weight to Guido's.
 I think the three projects you mention are too large to include, but
parts of them might be possible.  Athena, Dojo or Mochikit, for example
might work.
 I won't keep adding this paragraph, but some people tell me I come off
too strong.  I am going to give my thoughts in my response, but I don't
think I know all the answers.  I am by no means a Python expert,
although I am learning.  Jeff is an expert, and he enjoys learning about
new Python projects.  I am trying to gather enough information to
proceed with the podcasts, and I appreciate the input.  I'll be
collecting all the responses on this subject.  I'll bring them to the
DFW Python meetings and we will talk about them there.
  Useful but dangerous make me think I can count you as +1 on the idea
for now.
Thank you,
Ralph

On Sat, 2007-06-16 at 18:18 +0200, Laura Creighton wrote:
> There are very few of these projects I either know about nor have
> any current interest in knowing about.  Perhaps this means that
> you are a better magnet-for-cool than I am.  If so, these podcasts
> should be a sure hit.  But if not, perhaps we should ask on
> comp.lang.python for suggestions on what to produce.  
> 
> We have a serious dilemmna here -- by publishing a thing we can seem
> to endorse it.  Guido van Rosum created this sort of problem,
> inadvertantly, by publically liking Django.  One heck of a lot of
> people of small brains decided that Django was 'it' -- blessed by the
> dictator -- despite the fact that Django is only designed for certain
> things, and thus, especially if you have other things to do, you might
> be interested in Newov, or Turbo Gears, or Pylons ...
> 
> >
> >  Does anyone else think this is a useful idea?  Ron Stevens seemed to
> >like it.
> 
> It is useful, but it is also dangerous.  Just making sure we are
> all warned before we go burn ourselves. ...



From sfreader at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jun 17 02:07:35 2007
From: sfreader at sbcglobal.net (Ralph)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 19:07:35 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <1182038855.30040.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Howdy,
  Esoteric is what I was aiming at, but there is more.  Each podcast
would be 30 to 60 minutes and so the project to be talked about has to
be on the smaller side.  Jeff would be talking about the theory behind
the project and describing his use of it.  You can't do justice to Zope
or Django in an hour, but you can give a decent presentation of Nabu.  I
am certainly not wedded to my list.  That is one of the reasons I bring
it up here.  I am going to go look up the projects you list here and see
how I think they would fit into the idea.
Thank you,
Ralph

On Sat, 2007-06-16 at 17:28 +0100, Michael Foord wrote:

> The concept is great but the choice of projects seems 'esoteric'. Is it 
> a deliberate choice to not stick to mainstream projects.
> 
> My *personal* suggestions would be (some of which are included in your 
> list):
> 
> * docutils
> * PIL
> * wxPython (possibly and/or Dabo)
> * SciPy
> * matplotlib
> * twisted
> * crunchy
> * Pyjamas
> * Django (Turbgears and Pylons are both great projects and *equally* 
> deserving of coverage - but would this be too much of a web-app focus)
> * IPython
> * py2exe
> * pygame
> * pywin32
> * setuptools
> * SQLObject or SQLAlchemy
> * Mechanize
> * BeautifulSoup
> 
> There's a few anyway...
> 
> I would even include ctypes, ElementTree and sqlite - even though they 
> are now part of the standard library.
> 
> Oh, and there is always Zope. ;-)
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Michael Foord



From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Sun Jun 17 02:11:17 2007
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 01:11:17 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <1182038855.30040.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>	
	<46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>
	<1182038855.30040.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <46747C25.6040606@voidspace.org.uk>

Ralph wrote:
> Howdy,
>   Esoteric is what I was aiming at, but there is more.  Each podcast
> would be 30 to 60 minutes and so the project to be talked about has to
> be on the smaller side.  Jeff would be talking about the theory behind
>   

My *personal* take would be that this podcast has to compete with all 
the other things vying for my attention. If it covers something I 
already want to learn about then great, otherwise it goes fairly far 
down the list...

I guess people are different though and some *prefer* to learn about 
something they have not heard of - I would be worried about limiting the 
audience though.

Probably the right approach is a good mix.

In 60 minutes you can certainly get quite far with Turbogears - I've not 
used the other web frameworks, but I imagine the same is true. You don't 
need to 'do them justice' - just give people enough to get them started.

Anyway - it is a great idea. (BeautifulSoup should *definitely* be on 
your list by the way...)

Michael

> the project and describing his use of it.  You can't do justice to Zope
> or Django in an hour, but you can give a decent presentation of Nabu.  I
> am certainly not wedded to my list.  That is one of the reasons I bring
> it up here.  I am going to go look up the projects you list here and see
> how I think they would fit into the idea.
> Thank you,
> Ralph
>
> On Sat, 2007-06-16 at 17:28 +0100, Michael Foord wrote:
>
>   
>> The concept is great but the choice of projects seems 'esoteric'. Is it 
>> a deliberate choice to not stick to mainstream projects.
>>
>> My *personal* suggestions would be (some of which are included in your 
>> list):
>>
>> * docutils
>> * PIL
>> * wxPython (possibly and/or Dabo)
>> * SciPy
>> * matplotlib
>> * twisted
>> * crunchy
>> * Pyjamas
>> * Django (Turbgears and Pylons are both great projects and *equally* 
>> deserving of coverage - but would this be too much of a web-app focus)
>> * IPython
>> * py2exe
>> * pygame
>> * pywin32
>> * setuptools
>> * SQLObject or SQLAlchemy
>> * Mechanize
>> * BeautifulSoup
>>
>> There's a few anyway...
>>
>> I would even include ctypes, ElementTree and sqlite - even though they 
>> are now part of the standard library.
>>
>> Oh, and there is always Zope. ;-)
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Michael Foord
>>     
>
>
>   


From Cameron at phaseit.net  Sun Jun 17 05:00:09 2007
From: Cameron at phaseit.net (Cameron Laird)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 03:00:09 +0000
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20070617030008.GA24782@lairds.us>

On Sat, Jun 16, 2007 at 05:28:28PM +0100, Michael Foord wrote:
			.
			.
			.
> Laura Creighton wrote:
> >> Nabu  http://furius.ca/nabu/
> >> http://xmpppy.sourceforge.net/  xmpppy: the jabber python project
			.
			.
			.
> > There are very few of these projects I either know about nor have
> > any current interest in knowing about.  Perhaps this means that
> > you are a better magnet-for-cool than I am.  If so, these podcasts
> > should be a sure hit.  But if not, perhaps we should ask on
> > comp.lang.python for suggestions on what to produce.  
> >   
> >
> 
> Agreed. :-)
> 
> The concept is great but the choice of projects seems 'esoteric'. Is it 
> a deliberate choice to not stick to mainstream projects.
> 
> My *personal* suggestions would be (some of which are included in your 
> list):
> 
> * docutils
> * PIL
> * wxPython (possibly and/or Dabo)
> * SciPy
> * matplotlib
> * twisted
> * crunchy
> * Pyjamas
> * Django (Turbgears and Pylons are both great projects and *equally* 
> deserving of coverage - but would this be too much of a web-app focus)
> * IPython
> * py2exe
> * pygame
> * pywin32
> * setuptools
> * SQLObject or SQLAlchemy
> * Mechanize
> * BeautifulSoup
> 
> There's a few anyway...
> 
> I would even include ctypes, ElementTree and sqlite - even though they 
> are now part of the standard library.
> 
> Oh, and there is always Zope. ;-)
			.
			.
			.
I like Michael's list.  People learn about ElementTree, sqlite,
IPython, BeautifulSoup, ctypes, py2exe, ..., and soon wonder how
life was ever possible without them.

From carl at personnelware.com  Sun Jun 17 18:16:32 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:16:32 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <46755E60.1090200@personnelware.com>

> * Django (Turbgears and Pylons are both great projects and *equally* 
> deserving of coverage - but would this be too much of a web-app focus)
> Oh, and there is always Zope. ;-)

How about a 2nd 'track' that is just web technologies?

Carl K


From roy at panix.com  Sun Jun 17 18:39:23 2007
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 12:39:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <46755E60.1090200@personnelware.com>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>
	<46755E60.1090200@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <36017.128.221.197.20.1182098363.squirrel@mail.panix.com>

>> * Django (Turbgears and Pylons are both great projects and *equally*
>> deserving of coverage - but would this be too much of a web-app focus)
>> Oh, and there is always Zope. ;-)
>
> How about a 2nd 'track' that is just web technologies?

If there is one thing Python is getting killed on, it's web apps. 
Specifically, Ruby on Rails.  We need to work on our image in this area,
so I'm not worried if we focus too much on that.

I've been pushing in my company for us to develop a Python scripting
interface for our product.  We already have both a home-grown scripting
language, and Perl.  There is wide-spread agreement that neither is
satisfactory.  I've been pushing Python, but it's been an uphill battle
against the Ruby mind-share.  Here's a quote from a recent discussion:

> Python seems to be one of those specialty languages that builds up a
> following but never makes it into the mainstream.  That doesn't make
> it bad - Lisp, APL, SNOBOL, and Icon are other examples that come to
> mind.  In fact, these language often are very well engineered and
> their followers appreciate that quality.
>
> Ruby seems to be gaining rapidly increasing "mind share" these days.
> Partly this is through the wide use of Ruby On Rails as a Web
> development environment.

Notice the point being made.  It's not about whether Python or Ruby would
be a better language to write the product in, but which would be perceived
by our customers as being more desirable.  And that perception is being
driven by Rails.  That's what we need to be fighting.




From paul at boddie.org.uk  Sun Jun 17 20:54:15 2007
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:54:15 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <36017.128.221.197.20.1182098363.squirrel@mail.panix.com>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<46755E60.1090200@personnelware.com>
	<36017.128.221.197.20.1182098363.squirrel@mail.panix.com>
Message-ID: <200706172054.15930.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Sunday 17 June 2007 18:39, Roy Smith wrote:
> >> * Django (Turbgears and Pylons are both great projects and *equally*
> >> deserving of coverage - but would this be too much of a web-app focus)
> >> Oh, and there is always Zope. ;-)
> >
> > How about a 2nd 'track' that is just web technologies?
>
> If there is one thing Python is getting killed on, it's web apps.
> Specifically, Ruby on Rails.  We need to work on our image in this area,
> so I'm not worried if we focus too much on that.

This is an issue of perception, however - that the Rails people are good at 
making lots of noise, while things like Plone seem to be one of the first 
choices in the content management space, even though you probably aren't 
hearing about it. I don't think it helps that despite YouTube apparently 
using a lot of Python, for example, nobody wants to talk about it, and 
there's a continual uncertainty as to whether they really do use Python or 
not. Clearly Python delivers, but the really high profile adopters aren't 
contributing to the advocacy effort.

I think that this has always been a problem in Python advocacy: the whole 
"Python is a secret weapon" attitude which means that as long as you're 
working in an environment where Python is established, then you'll be fine; 
otherwise you'll have a hard time pointing to success stories (with all the 
accompanying "buzz") that your boss will find relevant enough. And when the 
success stories just tell you that "Python is great for our internal 
proprietary systems" then it doesn't stand up very well to something directly 
relevant to such systems that you can actually download - the success story 
could be talking about a million monkeys doing the work for all the benefit 
the reader derives from it.

(It sounds like I'm criticising the success stories on python.org here, but I 
actually think that they're an underrated and underpromoted resource. 
Nevertheless, just as a number of scientific papers I've read recently have 
been somewhat short on the details, there's nothing like an actual recipe for 
success rather than a description of such success, even though most companies 
aren't likely to openly share the former.)

> I've been pushing in my company for us to develop a Python scripting
> interface for our product.  We already have both a home-grown scripting
> language, and Perl.  There is wide-spread agreement that neither is
> satisfactory.  I've been pushing Python, but it's been an uphill battle
> against the Ruby mind-share.  Here's a quote from a recent discussion:
>
> > Python seems to be one of those specialty languages that builds up a
> > following but never makes it into the mainstream.  That doesn't make
> > it bad - Lisp, APL, SNOBOL, and Icon are other examples that come to
> > mind.  In fact, these language often are very well engineered and
> > their followers appreciate that quality.
> >
> > Ruby seems to be gaining rapidly increasing "mind share" these days.
> > Partly this is through the wide use of Ruby On Rails as a Web
> > development environment.
>
> Notice the point being made.  It's not about whether Python or Ruby would
> be a better language to write the product in, but which would be perceived
> by our customers as being more desirable.  And that perception is being
> driven by Rails.  That's what we need to be fighting.

Once upon a time, Python advocacy was all about convincing the out-of-touch 
manager about including Python in the set of technologies mandated for any 
given project. Then someone pointed out that the real driving force was peer 
promotion. Either way, if someone is talking from an academic viewpoint about 
a technology then that viewpoint is likely to be driven by perception rather 
than hard fact. Is your company's product a Web application? If not, why 
would Ruby on Rails be in any way relevant apart from the presence in the job 
market of an unmeasured number of developers having seen Ruby before? In any 
case, would a Ruby scripting interface as opposed to a Python one really 
bring in more developers?

How do you counter such perceptions? You need to show that Python is almost 
ubiquitous, that Python is directly relevant to the domain, and that Python 
is a favoured choice when making scripting interfaces to applications. To 
avoid the "million monkeys" phenomenon, you also need to be able to point to 
concrete work that shows that you aren't going to be reinventing someone 
else's wheel just because they enthused about how round it was.

I'd like to restate how important resources such as python.org should be in 
delivering materials suitable for convincing both managers and peers about 
the merits of Python and the high likelihood that someone has at least 
touched upon any given area of endeavour using Python previously. The 
python.org Wiki has gone a long way in the direction of providing such 
materials, and Jeff's initiatives are complementary to the reference 
information available on the Wiki. Specifically relevant to the above case, 
you'll find information on the Wiki about bindings generators and 
technologies, along with a white paper on the topic (eventually).

It's just unfortunate that a lot of useful material is often buried in places 
that are not so easy to find, and that the wider Python community doesn't 
feature as much in many of the lists of projects that the "inner community" 
regards as the most important. Returning to those lists: stuff like 
setuptools is extremely high profile already; stuff like Freevo (and related 
projects) are often ignored. I know what I'd rather be hearing about.

Paul

P.S. I don't think advocacy-related issues are on the schedule for EuroPython, 
but if there's interest, I can imagine setting up some kind of Open Space for 
interested parties. Speak up on the EuroPython mailing list or on this list 
if this sounds like a good idea!

From jeff at taupro.com  Sun Jun 17 22:45:01 2007
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:45:01 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <46747C25.6040606@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>		<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>		<46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>	<1182038855.30040.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<46747C25.6040606@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <46759D4D.5020506@taupro.com>

Michael Foord wrote:
> Ralph wrote:

>>   Esoteric is what I was aiming at, but there is more.  Each podcast
>> would be 30 to 60 minutes and so the project to be talked about has to
>> be on the smaller side.  Jeff would be talking about the theory behind
> 
> My *personal* take would be that this podcast has to compete with all 
> the other things vying for my attention. If it covers something I 
> already want to learn about then great, otherwise it goes fairly far 
> down the list...
> 
> I guess people are different though and some *prefer* to learn about 
> something they have not heard of - I would be worried about limiting the 
> audience though.

Remember, Ralph's proposal is for pure audio, a podcast, not a screencast.  It
can be difficult to teach something like Zope3 ZCML or convey web development
when you don't have screen shots or source views.

It can be hard to introduce a new piece of software and get people productive
in it in only 30-60 minutes.  Since the podcast is once per month, you can't
really break it down into multiple casts without losing your audience over
that period of time.

I was thinking each talk would highlight the strengths and weaknesses of some
software, try to provide a comprehensive summary of its features and something
about its history/maturity.  Not so much about the details of using it but
more to raise the community awareness of what is out there.  I think this is
why people like lightning talks so much -- they get introduced to new things
and can then decide whether to follow up on it.

As far as Michael's list, that list represents a pretty commonly-used list of
software, things most people are already aware of.

Since I already investigate a variety of software packages (just 'cause I'm
curious about things), and take lots of notes, the idea was to just turn those
notes into a talking show, without seriously impacting my time in other areas
of advocacy.  Creating actual courseware is a bigger effort.

We are still working up screencasts that actually teach, and we certainly are
open to others getting involved and producing content.  In response to Carl
Karsten's suggestion of running a second track of web technologies, I'm not
sure I personally have enough time to do two, and would like to work with
someone else to make that happen.  Right now, Ron Stephens is pretty much the
audio voice of Python -- podcasting is easy, no slides, no source, just talk
-- so how can we get more people to do podcasting?

-Jeff

From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 01:50:37 2007
From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:50:37 +1000
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <36017.128.221.197.20.1182098363.squirrel@mail.panix.com>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>
	<46755E60.1090200@personnelware.com>
	<36017.128.221.197.20.1182098363.squirrel@mail.panix.com>
Message-ID: <43c8685c0706171650y413d7c0eu658bee3da068129e@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to propose something, but it will require more work than I can
do by myself. However, I don't think it's onerous.

There are now a number of articles comparing Python web frameworks, and
comparing Python against the web frameworks in other apps.

A website, should be created with a snappy name. (Suggestions: PythonVsWeb,
PythonFrameworks). This website should contain: links to all known
comparison articles; two recommended frameworks; a list of email addresses
where interested parties can reach real people to talk to about choosing a
framework; a list of websites which actually use these frameworks; and links
to success stories.

As Editor-In-Chief of The Python Papers, I am more than happy to help in
soliciting, editing and publishing articles in this field. I am increasingly
of the opinion that Python's lack of a simple choice of web framework is
holding the language back from hitting "the big time". I have confronted
this difficulty myself (I chose Webware), but found the choice difficult and
confronting. It would have been easier if I were an experienced web
programmer, but I am an moderately experienced general programmer, with more
experience in desktop and server applications than web applications.

A simple grid of features would have gone a *long* way to simplifying my
decision. Many developers will want to use a Python framework over that of
other languages if they are using Python already. Similarly, many developers
will steer clear of Python if they are using a web framework from another
language. Many people will choose a language based on which one supports the
greatest number of their needs. Relying on existing Python mindshare will
make it hard to get into organisations which are more unfamiliar with it.

As we plan our next and following issue, I am trying to get in touch with
commercial and other employers who are using Python in the workplace to talk
about their experiences. If people could suggest companies that they know
which use Python to develop web apps, I would be more than happy to follow
up with those companies regarding writing and article for The Python Papers.
Perhaps they would be more interested in writing an article for a magazine
than for the python.org website.

Cheers,
-T

On 6/18/07, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>
> >> * Django (Turbgears and Pylons are both great projects and *equally*
> >> deserving of coverage - but would this be too much of a web-app focus)
> >> Oh, and there is always Zope. ;-)
> >
> > How about a 2nd 'track' that is just web technologies?
>
> If there is one thing Python is getting killed on, it's web apps.
> Specifically, Ruby on Rails.  We need to work on our image in this area,
> so I'm not worried if we focus too much on that.
>
> I've been pushing in my company for us to develop a Python scripting
> interface for our product.  We already have both a home-grown scripting
> language, and Perl.  There is wide-spread agreement that neither is
> satisfactory.  I've been pushing Python, but it's been an uphill battle
> against the Ruby mind-share.  Here's a quote from a recent discussion:
>
> > Python seems to be one of those specialty languages that builds up a
> > following but never makes it into the mainstream.  That doesn't make
> > it bad - Lisp, APL, SNOBOL, and Icon are other examples that come to
> > mind.  In fact, these language often are very well engineered and
> > their followers appreciate that quality.
> >
> > Ruby seems to be gaining rapidly increasing "mind share" these days.
> > Partly this is through the wide use of Ruby On Rails as a Web
> > development environment.
>
> Notice the point being made.  It's not about whether Python or Ruby would
> be a better language to write the product in, but which would be perceived
> by our customers as being more desirable.  And that perception is being
> driven by Rails.  That's what we need to be fighting.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>
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From sdeibel at wingware.com  Mon Jun 18 03:09:12 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:09:12 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <200706172054.15930.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<46755E60.1090200@personnelware.com>	<36017.128.221.197.20.1182098363.squirrel@mail.panix.com>
	<200706172054.15930.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4675DB38.5010509@wingware.com>

Paul Boddie wrote:
> This is an issue of perception, however - that the Rails people are good at 
> making lots of noise, while things like Plone seem to be one of the first 
> choices in the content management space, even though you probably aren't 
> hearing about it. I don't think it helps that despite YouTube apparently 
> using a lot of Python, for example, nobody wants to talk about it, and 
> there's a continual uncertainty as to whether they really do use Python or 
> not. Clearly Python delivers, but the really high profile adopters aren't 
> contributing to the advocacy effort.

 From http://www.python.org/about/quotes/ :

"Python is fast enough for our site and allows us to produce maintainable
features in record times, with a minimum of developers," said Cuong Do,
Software Architect, YouTube.com.

I don't think there's any lack of certainty there...

But you are right, getting some of the higher profile users to talk about
it is somewhat tricky.  I've found the best solution so far is to just keep
chipping away at it, through networking with colleagues, etc.

> (It sounds like I'm criticising the success stories on python.org here, but I 
> actually think that they're an underrated and underpromoted resource. 
> Nevertheless, just as a number of scientific papers I've read recently have 
> been somewhat short on the details, there's nothing like an actual recipe for 
> success rather than a description of such success, even though most companies 
> aren't likely to openly share the former.)

Agreed.  I've long thought a collection of how-tos would complement the success
stories well, but don't look to the same writers to contribute them.

- Stephan

From lac at openend.se  Mon Jun 18 10:04:25 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:04:25 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: Message from Ralph <sfreader@sbcglobal.net> of "Sat,
	16 Jun 2007 19:06:50 CDT."
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
Message-ID: <200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>


In a message of Sat, 16 Jun 2007 19:06:50 CDT, Ralph writes:
>Howdy,
>   I would say it is a good thing if you have not heard of most of the
>projects.  That was pretty much the idea.  I wanted to pick projects
>that looked interesting and would be new to most people.  I am sure that
>not every project would appeal to all, but I hope that as the project
>proceeds, that more and more people would find them worth learning
>about.  And, I think every project must be one that Jeff really finds
>somewhat interesting, or he won't be as motivated.  So, I bet Jeff will
>knock some off the list.  I would like to get other specific
>suggestions.  I don't think there should be a public vote, but
>suggestions that a small group of people review would be great.  The
>plan is that a few of the other locals will help Jeff write up scripts
>and plan the podcasts.  But, when they come out each month, the topic
>should be a surprise.  I want people to look forward to checking out
>what his project is.  

I think that whether this works depends on whether you are the sort of
person who watches podcasts for fun.  I'm not, but I don't own a tv
either.  So in order to get me to watch a podcast at all, it has to be
about something that I already know I want to learn about.  And I will
read the text-accompaniment first, and only if that looks interesting
will I start the podcast.  This puts me on one far end of the spectrum
of possible viewing audience.  Somewhere out there is somebody who
hates reading books and will always go for a podcast every single time.
How does our audience sort out between these extremes? I don't know.

>Your concern about being seen to endorse a project
>is one I have thought about.  We need to say somehow that this is
>basically a research project.  The projects we talk about are good
>enough to be worth learning about.  

I don't understand this.  If you are saying that 'these projects are
research projects' then you will offend those creators who think of
their projects as completely ready for commercial deployment right
now.  If, instead, you are saying 'the podcasts are to be thought of as
a research project', ah, how does that follow?  What is research about
it?  Promote something and then measure if it gets more popular?  But
that's the whole reason for the caution.

>The fact that we will be cranking
>them out once a month should also help to allay that concern. Jeff is
>certainly a leader in the local Python community and is making strides
>in the bigger community.  Buy, I don't think his endorsement, if these
>are perceived as endorsements, will carry similar weight to Guido's.

If it is seen as a PSF action it ought to, and there is the rub.

> I think the three projects you mention are too large to include, but
>parts of them might be possible.  Athena, Dojo or Mochikit, for example
>might work.
> I won't keep adding this paragraph, but some people tell me I come off
>too strong.  I am going to give my thoughts in my response, but I don't
>think I know all the answers.  I am by no means a Python expert,
>although I am learning.  Jeff is an expert, and he enjoys learning about
>new Python projects.  I am trying to gather enough information to
>proceed with the podcasts, and I appreciate the input.  I'll be
>collecting all the responses on this subject.  I'll bring them to the
>DFW Python meetings and we will talk about them there.
>  Useful but dangerous make me think I can count you as +1 on the idea
>for now.
>Thank you,

You are most welcome.

Laura

>Ralph
>

From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Mon Jun 18 12:11:23 2007
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:11:23 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0706171650y413d7c0eu658bee3da068129e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>	<46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>	<46755E60.1090200@personnelware.com>	<36017.128.221.197.20.1182098363.squirrel@mail.panix.com>
	<43c8685c0706171650y413d7c0eu658bee3da068129e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46765A4B.4020809@voidspace.org.uk>

Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
> I would like to propose something, but it will require more work than 
> I can do by myself. However, I don't think it's onerous.
>
> There are now a number of articles comparing Python web frameworks, 
> and comparing Python against the web frameworks in other apps.
>
> A website, should be created with a snappy name. (Suggestions: 
> PythonVsWeb, PythonFrameworks). This website should contain: links to 
> all known comparison articles; two recommended frameworks; a list of 
> email addresses where interested parties can reach real people to talk 
> to about choosing a framework; a list of websites which actually use 
> these frameworks; and links to success stories.

The 'real problem'(tm) is that when attempting to start a project it is 
really hard to evaluate the options.

What would be useful IMO is a summary of a few (I don't think two is 
enough) of the most popular frameworks and what the main differences are.

My recommendations for projects to mention (shorter list is better - but 
these are sufficiently different):

* CGI
* Zope
* Django
* Turbogears
* Pylons
* web.py

If people could match up their requirement to a specific framework more 
easily then the 'too many choices' problem would be reduced.

Michael Foord


From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 03:07:42 2007
From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:07:42 +1000
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <46765A4B.4020809@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>
	<46755E60.1090200@personnelware.com>
	<36017.128.221.197.20.1182098363.squirrel@mail.panix.com>
	<43c8685c0706171650y413d7c0eu658bee3da068129e@mail.gmail.com>
	<46765A4B.4020809@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <43c8685c0706181807v55a0b5b2r3e3ba2f309ce56be@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Michael,

I would add Webware to the list, as it is rather different from the others.

Such a comparison would be great. I know of a comparison between Rails and
Django.

If people could email links to any other comparisons that they know of,
these could be assembled into a useful resource. I believe I have seen some
lists of comparisons on the web before, but maybe if people know of new
ones, that would be useful.

-T

On 6/18/07, Michael Foord <fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
> > I would like to propose something, but it will require more work than
> > I can do by myself. However, I don't think it's onerous.
> >
> > There are now a number of articles comparing Python web frameworks,
> > and comparing Python against the web frameworks in other apps.
> >
> > A website, should be created with a snappy name. (Suggestions:
> > PythonVsWeb, PythonFrameworks). This website should contain: links to
> > all known comparison articles; two recommended frameworks; a list of
> > email addresses where interested parties can reach real people to talk
> > to about choosing a framework; a list of websites which actually use
> > these frameworks; and links to success stories.
>
> The 'real problem'(tm) is that when attempting to start a project it is
> really hard to evaluate the options.
>
> What would be useful IMO is a summary of a few (I don't think two is
> enough) of the most popular frameworks and what the main differences are.
>
> My recommendations for projects to mention (shorter list is better - but
> these are sufficiently different):
>
> * CGI
> * Zope
> * Django
> * Turbogears
> * Pylons
> * web.py
>
> If people could match up their requirement to a specific framework more
> easily then the 'too many choices' problem would be reduced.
>
> Michael Foord
>
>
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From sfreader at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jun 19 06:01:05 2007
From: sfreader at sbcglobal.net (Ralph)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:01:05 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
Message-ID: <1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 10:04 +0200, Laura Creighton wrote:
> I think that whether this works depends on whether you are the sort of
> person who watches podcasts for fun.  I'm not, but I don't own a tv
> either.  So in order to get me to watch a podcast at all, it has to be
  Watching one of this could be a Zen exercise of some sort, I guess.
These are going to be audio podcasts, suitable for listening to on your
portable music player.  To watch would be to see the clock counter move
up.

> about something that I already know I want to learn about.  And I will
> read the text-accompaniment first, and only if that looks interesting
> will I start the podcast.  This puts me on one far end of the spectrum
> of possible viewing audience.  Somewhere out there is somebody who
> hates reading books and will always go for a podcast every single time.
> How does our audience sort out between these extremes? I don't know.
> 
> >Your concern about being seen to endorse a project
> >is one I have thought about.  We need to say somehow that this is
> >basically a research project.  The projects we talk about are good
> >enough to be worth learning about.  
> 
> I don't understand this.  If you are saying that 'these projects are
> research projects' then you will offend those creators who think of
> their projects as completely ready for commercial deployment right
> now.  If, instead, you are saying 'the podcasts are to be thought of as
> a research project', ah, how does that follow?  What is research about
  The point here is that Jeff is doing research into projects he has not
used.  Not every project he researches turns out to be interesting.  The
ones that are interesting enough are the ones we will do a podcast
about.  Interesting here can mean the code is novel in some way we want
to talk about.  It might mean that the project is worth using.  We'll
need more than 12 projects to study in a year, because we may not find
enough to say about every project we look at.

  
> it?  Promote something and then measure if it gets more popular?  But
> that's the whole reason for the caution.

> If it is seen as a PSF action it ought to, and there is the rub.
> 
  I don't propose this as a PSF action.  I do want feedback from this
group, because the purpose of the podcast is to highlight the use of
Python.

 If we produce an interesting show, I bet we will find an audience.
And, I think it will help the promotion of Python.


From lac at openend.se  Tue Jun 19 09:44:45 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:44:45 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: Message from Ralph <sfreader@sbcglobal.net> of "Mon,
	18 Jun 2007 23:01:05 CDT."
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
Message-ID: <200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>

In a message of Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:01:05 CDT, Ralph writes:
>On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 10:04 +0200, Laura Creighton wrote:
>> I think that whether this works depends on whether you are the sort of
>> person who watches podcasts for fun.  I'm not, but I don't own a tv
>> either.  So in order to get me to watch a podcast at all, it has to be
>  Watching one of this could be a Zen exercise of some sort, I guess.
>These are going to be audio podcasts, suitable for listening to on your
>portable music player.  To watch would be to see the clock counter move
>up.

This absolutely, definitely will not work for me, but then I'm not
your target audience.

<snip>

>> >Your concern about being seen to endorse a project
>> >is one I have thought about.  We need to say somehow that this is
>> >basically a research project.  The projects we talk about are good
>> >enough to be worth learning about.  
>> 
>> I don't understand this.  If you are saying that 'these projects are
>> research projects' then you will offend those creators who think of
>> their projects as completely ready for commercial deployment right
>> now.  If, instead, you are saying 'the podcasts are to be thought of as
>> a research project', ah, how does that follow?  What is research about
>  The point here is that Jeff is doing research into projects he has not
>used.  Not every project he researches turns out to be interesting.  The
>ones that are interesting enough are the ones we will do a podcast
>about.  Interesting here can mean the code is novel in some way we want
>to talk about.  It might mean that the project is worth using.  We'll
>need more than 12 projects to study in a year, because we may not find
>enough to say about every project we look at.
>> it?  Promote something and then measure if it gets more popular?  But
>> that's the whole reason for the caution.
>
>> If it is seen as a PSF action it ought to, and there is the rub.
>> 
>  I don't propose this as a PSF action.  I do want feedback from this
>group, because the purpose of the podcast is to highlight the use of
>Python.
>
> If we produce an interesting show, I bet we will find an audience.
>And, I think it will help the promotion of Python.

I'm going to try this again.

The problem is that by selecting certain projects, and not others,
you will, by definition, be publicising them.  What should the 
attitude of people's who projects are reviewed be to this?  People
whose projects are not reviewed?

Part of this will depend on your skill at constructing podcasts, and
your general amount of wisdom.  Part of this will depend on how
critical you are when you review.  Will you take special pains to
go after the shortcomings of whatever you are reviewing, or will
you glass over them and focus on the positive things that each 
offering can do?  What tone will you take?  Informative?  Funny?
Man-on-the-Street? Hard-to-Impress?  Easily-Impressed? Talking to
an audience?  self-diary?  Message-in-the-Bottle ?  These editorial
stances can effect, and in some cases determine the reaction of your
audience.

But there is no point in doing this unless you intend to be successful,
where success is measured in audience-size.  Thus, even if you only
wish to promote python -- and would prefer if your podcasts have no
effect on growing the market share of the programs you review, you
have no way to arrange this.  And, while it is possible that the existence
of such podcasts will promote python to people unfamiliar with the
language -- especially if they are watched for their humour as well
as their technical content -- what is more likely is that you will be
broadcasting to an audience of people who already use and love python.
Thus your mark as a promoter-of-certain programs is likely to be larger 
than your mark as a promoter-of-python.

Which is something that needs to be prepared for, ahead of time.  As
far as I can tell, your policy for people who are unhappy that a
competing, and to their mind, inferior product got a great podcast
review while theirs was overlooked entirely, is to say 'Oh well, it
was just what I happened to be working on.'  Which gives the message
'why should you be taking me all that seriously, anyway?'  And that is
the wrong message.  If you don't want to be taken seriously, then
you shouldn't do this in the first place.  And if you _do_ want to
be taken seriously, then you cannot afford such a message at a
time before you are taken seriously.  And if you _succeed_, and
reach the point where no amount of self-deprication can hurt you
in the eyes of your loyal fans -- well, then such remarks, even if
sincere are only seen as disingenuous.

So, better to make a plan.  Either a plan for selecting programs,
or a plan for allowing rebuttals, or allowing other people to make
podcasts too -- or _something_.

Laura

From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Tue Jun 19 14:17:55 2007
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:17:55 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
Message-ID: <4677C973.50203@voidspace.org.uk>

Laura Creighton wrote:
> [snip..]
> I'm going to try this again.
>
> The problem is that by selecting certain projects, and not others,
> you will, by definition, be publicising them.  What should the 
> attitude of people's who projects are reviewed be to this?  People
> whose projects are not reviewed?
>   

If this is not a PSF action, just a podcast on 'some Python projects', 
then I don't think this is an issue. If Guido was doing the podcasts it 
might be a different story. ;-)

I would agree that selecting *mainly* obscure projects is going to limit 
the potential audience size - I think a mix of well known and obscure is 
the best way to go.

For example, I *haven't* used Elementree, ctypes or Mechanize but I 
would like to know more about them. I would definitely listen to 
podcasts on them. I expect there are many other people in a similar 
situation.

I wouldn't listen to podcasts about projects I've never heard of and 
therefore have no current interest in - *unless* it was from a series 
that I already listened to and had covered several projects that I was 
interested in.

Whichever way you go, Python needs more podcasts and I greatly support 
the endeavour. Nice one.

My 2 pennies...

Michael Foord

From amk at amk.ca  Tue Jun 19 16:00:50 2007
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:00:50 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
Message-ID: <20070619140050.GA7705@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 09:44:45AM +0200, Laura Creighton wrote:
> So, better to make a plan.  Either a plan for selecting programs,
> or a plan for allowing rebuttals, or allowing other people to make
> podcasts too -- or _something_.

This is putting too much of a burden on the people making the podcast.
People can post anything they like on a web page without being
required to support comments or linking to rebuttals, and I don't see
why podcasts are any different.  I'll occasionally investigate some
library or tool and write up a few notes in case someone else finds
them useful some day -- the last one was
<http://www.amk.ca/diary/2007/04/rough_notes_python_and_dbus.html> --
and this podcast idea seems similar -- recording commentary in case
it's useful to a future reader/listener.

Note that a Ruby book just came out (Practical Ruby Gems" --
http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=10261) that's a
similar idea, touring some modules on the Ruby equivalent of PyPI and
showing how to parse HTML, CSV, etc.  Interestingly, the web
application chapter uses a framework called Camping, not the
omnipresent Rails.

--amk


From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Tue Jun 19 16:05:18 2007
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:05:18 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <20070619140050.GA7705@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
	<20070619140050.GA7705@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4677E29E.1030608@voidspace.org.uk>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 09:44:45AM +0200, Laura Creighton wrote:
>   
>> So, better to make a plan.  Either a plan for selecting programs,
>> or a plan for allowing rebuttals, or allowing other people to make
>> podcasts too -- or _something_.
>>     
>
> This is putting too much of a burden on the people making the podcast.
> People can post anything they like on a web page without being
> required to support comments or linking to rebuttals, and I don't see
> why podcasts are any different. 

Definitely - too many requirements and the project just won't happen. 
Let's make things happen.

Michael



From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Tue Jun 19 23:14:10 2007
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:14:10 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0706181807v55a0b5b2r3e3ba2f309ce56be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>	
	<46740FAC.6030303@voidspace.org.uk>	
	<46755E60.1090200@personnelware.com>	
	<36017.128.221.197.20.1182098363.squirrel@mail.panix.com>	
	<43c8685c0706171650y413d7c0eu658bee3da068129e@mail.gmail.com>	
	<46765A4B.4020809@voidspace.org.uk>
	<43c8685c0706181807v55a0b5b2r3e3ba2f309ce56be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46784722.9090308@voidspace.org.uk>

Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> I would add Webware to the list, as it is rather different from the 
> others.
>
> Such a comparison would be great. I know of a comparison between Rails 
> and Django.
>
> If people could email links to any other comparisons that they know 
> of, these could be assembled into a useful resource. I believe I have 
> seen some lists of comparisons on the web before, but maybe if people 
> know of new ones, that would be useful.

I assume you have seen this?

http://nxsy.org/blog/archives/2007/06/19/unscientific-and-biased-comparison-of-django-pylons-and-turbogears

Fresh from Planet Python :-)

Michael Foord

>
> -T
>
> On 6/18/07, *Michael Foord* <fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk 
> <mailto:fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk>> wrote:
>
>     Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
>     > I would like to propose something, but it will require more work
>     than
>     > I can do by myself. However, I don't think it's onerous.
>     >
>     > There are now a number of articles comparing Python web frameworks,
>     > and comparing Python against the web frameworks in other apps.
>     >
>     > A website, should be created with a snappy name. (Suggestions:
>     > PythonVsWeb, PythonFrameworks). This website should contain:
>     links to
>     > all known comparison articles; two recommended frameworks; a list of
>     > email addresses where interested parties can reach real people
>     to talk
>     > to about choosing a framework; a list of websites which actually
>     use
>     > these frameworks; and links to success stories.
>
>     The 'real problem'(tm) is that when attempting to start a project
>     it is
>     really hard to evaluate the options.
>
>     What would be useful IMO is a summary of a few (I don't think two is
>     enough) of the most popular frameworks and what the main
>     differences are.
>
>     My recommendations for projects to mention (shorter list is better
>     - but
>     these are sufficiently different):
>
>     * CGI
>     * Zope
>     * Django
>     * Turbogears
>     * Pylons
>     * web.py
>
>     If people could match up their requirement to a specific framework
>     more
>     easily then the 'too many choices' problem would be reduced.
>
>     Michael Foord
>
>


From sfreader at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun 20 07:40:16 2007
From: sfreader at sbcglobal.net (Ralph)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:40:16 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <4677C973.50203@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
	<4677C973.50203@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <1182318016.21834.45.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 13:17 +0100, Michael Foord wrote:
> Laura Creighton wrote:
> > [snip..]
> > you will, by definition, be publicising them.  What should the 
> > attitude of people's who projects are reviewed be to this?  People
> > whose projects are not reviewed?
> >   
> 
> If this is not a PSF action, just a podcast on 'some Python projects', 
> then I don't think this is an issue. If Guido was doing the podcasts it 
> might be a different story. ;-)
  Hey, didn't I say that?

> 
> I would agree that selecting *mainly* obscure projects is going to limit 
> the potential audience size - I think a mix of well known and obscure is 
> the best way to go.
> 
  I think I have been convinced that we need some more well know
projects.  Beautiful Soup is right near the top, too.  I think I said
this before, but we probably won't publicize our list ahead of time.
There are several reasons for this.  I am keeping the suggestions that
have come in here.


> ...My 2 pennies...
> 
> Michael Foord
 Thank you, Michael



From sfreader at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun 20 07:33:47 2007
From: sfreader at sbcglobal.net (Ralph)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:33:47 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
Message-ID: <1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 09:44 +0200, Laura Creighton wrote:
> I'm going to try this again.
> 
> The problem is that by selecting certain projects, and not others,
> you will, by definition, be publicising them.  What should the 
> attitude of people's who projects are reviewed be to this?  People
> whose projects are not reviewed?
> 
  No, we understand that.  But, I am glad to have you make the point
because it is a good one.  I hope the project is successful enough that
these competing projects will lobby us for attention.  That is where the
short interview segments would come from.  We have to start with some
projects.  I think we have to do smaller projects so we can go into some
depth in 30 to 60 minutes.  I should also say that I am not making the
final decisions here.  I am probably the one puching hardest on the
concept, but it will be a group effort.  My guess is we will call it a
project of the DFW Pythoneers.  I will help select projects and do
research and help write the scripts, but I am one voice.  I'll tell you
what I think, but I want feedvack and then we'll talk about it at the
local group.  We meet 3 times every month.  Our next meeting is a 2 hour
dJango tutorial, so we will probably talk about it on the second
Saturday of July.
  Anyway, we will pick an initial slate of projects and start working on
them.  If we do this for a while, we will get around to lots of Python
projects.  I hope most of the authors of the projects we pick will be
pleased.  I bet they won't be, because we might say bad things too.  We
are not going after advertiser.  We are trying to produce useful
commentary.  As for the projects we don't pick, I hope they contact us
for future shows.  That would be a small sign we are succeeding.

> Part of this will depend on your skill at constructing podcasts, and
> your general amount of wisdom.  Part of this will depend on how
> critical you are when you review.  Will you take special pains to
> go after the shortcomings of whatever you are reviewing, or will
> you glass over them and focus on the positive things that each 
  We are beginners at producing podcasts.  Jeff has done some audio
recording at conferences.  I have some some audio processing.  I bet the
first show or two never go out because we won't be happy with them.
Where the shortcomings are important to us, we will mention them.  One
thing I know is this.  I have had successful writer tell me to write the
kind of things you would want to consume.  I know I'd love to find a
podcast like this and I will use that as my guide.  Then, we will see
what is most successful and pander appropriately ;-)  Jeff said I had to
get a smiley face in the message somewhere :-)

> offering can do?  What tone will you take?  Informative?  Funny?
> Man-on-the-Street? Hard-to-Impress?  Easily-Impressed? Talking to
> an audience?  self-diary?  Message-in-the-Bottle ?  These editorial
> stances can effect, and in some cases determine the reaction of your
> audience.
> 
  Have you heard Jeff talk at conferences?  That is his natural tone and
I don't want to try to change him.  I may try to punch it up with a few
bad puns.  I expect the style will evolve and we will definitely want
feedback on how we are doing.

> But there is no point in doing this unless you intend to be successful,
> where success is measured in audience-size.  Thus, even if you only
> wish to promote python -- and would prefer if your podcasts have no
> effect on growing the market share of the programs you review, you
> have no way to arrange this.
 We intend to be successful.  We also intend to have some fun.
Otherwise, it would be too much work.

>   And, while it is possible that the existence
> of such podcasts will promote python to people unfamiliar with the
> language -- especially if they are watched for their humour as well
> as their technical content -- what is more likely is that you will be
> broadcasting to an audience of people who already use and love python.
  I am more optimistic than you, I think.  But, you may be right.  The
earlier in the series, the more right I expect you will be.

> Thus your mark as a promoter-of-certain programs is likely to be larger 
> than your mark as a promoter-of-python.
  And yet, we have to start somewhere.  If we pick projects of the right
scope and projects that interest us, them I believe the shows will be
more worth listening to.

> 
> Which is something that needs to be prepared for, ahead of time.  As
> far as I can tell, your policy for people who are unhappy that a
> competing, and to their mind, inferior product got a great podcast
> review while theirs was overlooked entirely, is to say 'Oh well, it
> was just what I happened to be working on.'  Which gives the message
> 'why should you be taking me all that seriously, anyway?'  And that is
> the wrong message.
  That is not what we'll say.  We will say we made the best choices we
could to start and we invite comments from other projects.  I think your
concern shows me that we will need to address this on our wiki and in
the introduction to the series.


>   If you don't want to be taken seriously, then
> you shouldn't do this in the first place.  And if you _do_ want to
> be taken seriously, then you cannot afford such a message at a
> time before you are taken seriously.  And if you _succeed_, and
> reach the point where no amount of self-deprication can hurt you
> in the eyes of your loyal fans -- well, then such remarks, even if
> sincere are only seen as disingenuous.
> 
> So, better to make a plan.  Either a plan for selecting programs,
> or a plan for allowing rebuttals, or allowing other people to make
> podcasts too -- or _something_.
> 
  I had an initial plan for selecting programs.  I am getting feedback
here and then we will make it more formal at a DFW Python meeting to
come.  At least, I will be pushing for that.  We will likelly have a
Wiki for comments.  I had not thought about it, but we might allow other
podcasts on our feed.  We would want to vet them for quality and
language and such.  We would not have to agree with the opinions, but we
would want the audio quality to be listenable and for there not to be
any foul language.

  
> Laura
Thank you for the comments, Laura



From lac at openend.se  Wed Jun 20 08:36:35 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:36:35 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: Message from Ralph <sfreader@sbcglobal.net> of "Wed,
	20 Jun 2007 00:33:47 CDT."
	<1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
Message-ID: <200706200636.l5K6aZtW024607@theraft.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:33:47 CDT, Ralph writes:
<snip>

All that I snipped sounds great.  Thank you for really thinking about
this.

Laura


From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Jun 20 14:07:53 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 07:07:53 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] pay for podcast?
In-Reply-To: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <46791899.1020301@personnelware.com>

been thinking about the "don't endorse a project" problem, and I have a vision:

The PSF podcast approval committee tree, with Jeff at the top, the size and 
shape of the tree determined by how many podcasts get submitted.

podcasts are submitted to the committee who listens to them within a week or so, 
and every week or so posts an approved pic and pays the submitter $100 or so.

$100/week would cost $5200 a year.  I can see how this would be a deal killer, 
but I really have no clue.

The price should be enough that it causes more to be submitted than one person 
could reasonably listen to without taking too much away from the few other 
things we do.  I see 7 or so people that have chimed into this thread, so that's 
a good number of people that might need to be help by screening the submissions 
to see which ones we think Jeff should listen to.  Jeff can then post the pick 
of the litter.  The runners up might even get made available.  One of the things 
I am going for is "these podcasts are 'approved'" or something so that the 
masses don't all have to listen to ones that were whipped together in hopes to 
grab an easy $100 and or shamelessly plug a product without much content worth 
listening to.

This doesn't totally eliminate the "don't endorse a project" problem but it 
might make it significantly less of an issue.  There will be way more podcasts, 
so 'competing' projects have a better chance of getting equal airtime.  And the 
"paid for" aspect may help the audience understand that the projects were 
selected due to their 'podcast quality' not some technical merit.

I can also see a $1000 grand prize being awarded at PyCon each year.  (can even 
be picked from one of the runners up.)  I know previous "awards at PyCon" were 
frowned upon, and I mostly agreed with the rational.  but I think this is 
different: to some extent, people are being paid to do some work for 
advocacy at python.

Carl K

From amk at amk.ca  Wed Jun 20 15:34:12 2007
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:34:12 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20070620133412.GA6535@localhost.localdomain>

One thought, to be taken with a grain of salt: at Penguin Day, a
number of people said they didn't listen to podcasts because it was so
time-consuming and preferred podcast + slide show presentations
because it's possible to ignore the audio and just look at the slides.

Preparing slides is extra effort, of course, so it might be best to
figure out how to make audio-only podcasts first, and once you have
the mechanics of that, then consider complicating things by adding
still images or video.

--amk


From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Wed Jun 20 15:37:28 2007
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:37:28 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <20070620133412.GA6535@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>	<1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070620133412.GA6535@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <46792D98.60506@voidspace.org.uk>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> One thought, to be taken with a grain of salt: at Penguin Day, a
> number of people said they didn't listen to podcasts because it was so
> time-consuming and preferred podcast + slide show presentations
> because it's possible to ignore the audio and just look at the slides.
>   
I don't listen to podcasts at all - but lots of people do.

Michael


> Preparing slides is extra effort, of course, so it might be best to
> figure out how to make audio-only podcasts first, and once you have
> the mechanics of that, then consider complicating things by adding
> still images or video.
>
> --amk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>
>   


From goodger at python.org  Wed Jun 20 15:59:11 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:59:11 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <20070620133412.GA6535@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070620133412.GA6535@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4335d2c40706200659h18f5b62cv2131906029f6426d@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/20/07, A.M. Kuchling <amk at amk.ca> wrote:
> One thought, to be taken with a grain of salt: at Penguin Day, a
> number of people said they didn't listen to podcasts because it was so
> time-consuming and preferred podcast + slide show presentations
> because it's possible to ignore the audio and just look at the slides.

I listen to podcasts while walking to work, and to fill other
"autopilot" times.  On occasion I have even taken stripped the video
portion out of talks and turned them into audio-only, so that I can
listen to them.  I find many videos (screencasts, slide shows) to be a
waste of dedicated sit-down time.  Some are not, but there are a lot
of "talking head" videos out there where the video is a waste of
bandwidth.

I guess all this shows is that there are many opinions.

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From broadus.jones at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 18:56:47 2007
From: broadus.jones at gmail.com (Broadus Jones)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 11:56:47 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <4335d2c40706200659h18f5b62cv2131906029f6426d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070620133412.GA6535@localhost.localdomain>
	<4335d2c40706200659h18f5b62cv2131906029f6426d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c048021a0706200956n2f76166cp5539e0cc3b7e0cbc@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/20/07, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
>
> I listen to podcasts while walking to work, and to fill other
> "autopilot" times.

I listen to audio books when I am alone in the car.

> I guess all this shows is that there are many opinions.
Hear, hear!

One technical aspect I have noted in the best audio books is the audio
is chopped into short (3-5 minute) files.  This allows the listener to
jump forward or back w/o having to scan the entire "document".  There
is no auditory break between files when listening, so it does not
disturb the listener.

I do plan on listening.  Jeff has many interesting things to say.

(just my user 2 cents)

Broadus

From lac at openend.se  Wed Jun 20 20:31:51 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:31:51 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: Message from "A.M. Kuchling" <amk@amk.ca> of "Wed,
	20 Jun 2007 09:34:12 EDT."
	<20070620133412.GA6535@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070620133412.GA6535@localhost.localdomain> 
Message-ID: <200706201831.l5KIVp7s027355@theraft.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:34:12 EDT, "A.M. Kuchling" writes:
>One thought, to be taken with a grain of salt: at Penguin Day, a
>number of people said they didn't listen to podcasts because it was so
>time-consuming and preferred podcast + slide show presentations
>because it's possible to ignore the audio and just look at the slides.
>
>Preparing slides is extra effort, of course, so it might be best to
>figure out how to make audio-only podcasts first, and once you have
>the mechanics of that, then consider complicating things by adding
>still images or video.
>
>--amk

Around here people want a transcript of the podcast before they want
the slide show (though they want that too).

Laura


From mtobis at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 20:46:32 2007
From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:46:32 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <200706201831.l5KIVp7s027355@theraft.openend.se>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <amk@amk.ca>
	<20070620133412.GA6535@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706201831.l5KIVp7s027355@theraft.openend.se>
Message-ID: <c3aa55550706201146x1db3b371j394164625952815b@mail.gmail.com>

I admit I haven't been following closely, but I don't understand this
discussion.

Why doesn't everyone make whatever media they see fit as well as they
can whenever they want to?

YouTube can host bandwidth intensive stuff in a pinch. All we would
want a centralized facility to do would be to link especially language
and/or community relevant ones.

Perhaps one or two could be featured at a given time, and maybe an RSS
feed of that would be good. I don't see the need to centralize the
production and make a big deal out of it. What python.org/PSF can
provide is a submission form and a very loose editorial policy (you
have to watch the whole thing to check for offtopic or otherwise
inappropriate material before recommending it.)

There's no need for it to be as rare as monthly if people want to
contribute. If you can get your stuff prominently featured on
python.org, preferably on the home page, lots of folks would do it.

Did I miss something?

mt

From sfreader at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jun 21 05:54:38 2007
From: sfreader at sbcglobal.net (Ralph)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:54:38 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposal for Monthly podcast series
In-Reply-To: <c3aa55550706201146x1db3b371j394164625952815b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1181979119.4952.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706161618.l5GGIPpt018285@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182038810.30040.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706180804.l5I84PEf026692@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182225665.16940.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706190744.l5J7ijTf029940@theraft.openend.se>
	<1182317627.21834.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <amk@amk.ca>
	<20070620133412.GA6535@localhost.localdomain>
	<200706201831.l5KIVp7s027355@theraft.openend.se>
	<c3aa55550706201146x1db3b371j394164625952815b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1182398078.24783.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 13:46 -0500, Michael Tobis wrote:
> YouTube can host bandwidth intensive stuff in a pinch. All we would
> want a centralized facility to do would be to link especially language
> and/or community relevant ones.
> 
  I have no interest in anything that would be hosted on Youtube.  All
their stuff is Flash.  I can't play Flash files.  Sure, the Flash player
is free, but the license in unacceptable.  I would feel bad doing
anything to promote it.  My vision is to produce audio only podcasts.
There will be notes to go with them.  Now, there is someone in Dallas
producing Screencasts, but I don't know if that is public so I won't say
who.  I see these two as being complementary.  I rarely listen to the
radio anymore.  I listen to a variety of podcasts.  I take the audio
from C-SPAN and other video streams and make my own programs.  I think a
lot of people do this these days.
 I hear Gnash is close to being ready to play Youtube videos.  So, maybe
this opinion will change.  But, I also saw that Youtube might convert to
their own proprietary format.  I think it still might be better to stay
away from silos like Youtube.

> There's no need for it to be as rare as monthly if people want to
> contribute. If you can get your stuff prominently featured on
> python.org, preferably on the home page, lots of folks would do it.
> 
  Maybe this could turn out bigger than I thought.   I am part of the
Dallas group and we have been talking about this since Pycon in Dallas
this year.  If other people want to do podcasts, great.  If they want to
do better ones than we will do, that's great too.  But, I want to get
things past talking about and get something into production in the next
few months.  If this really looks like it might turn into a bigger
program, we might wait.  We'll see, but I bet we'll start on our own.
We will greedily accept advice.



From amk at amk.ca  Thu Jun 21 17:23:57 2007
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:23:57 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Wanted: readers for a mailbox.py article
Message-ID: <20070621152357.GA11074@localhost.localdomain>

I'm writing an article about the mailbox module for an online
publication, and would like to get comments on the current draft.  If
you'd like to take a look, please e-mail me and I'll tell you the
draft's URL.

--amk


From amk at amk.ca  Fri Jun 22 16:07:00 2007
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:07:00 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Wanted: readers for a mailbox.py article
In-Reply-To: <20070621152357.GA11074@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20070621152357.GA11074@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20070622140700.GC8605@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 11:23:57AM -0400, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> I'm writing an article about the mailbox module for an online
> publication, and would like to get comments on the current draft.  If
> you'd like to take a look, please e-mail me and I'll tell you the
> draft's URL.

Thanks, everyone!  Several people have responded, so the article will
get a good proofreading.

--amk


From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Mon Jun 25 01:16:05 2007
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 00:16:05 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] COmparison
References: 46765A4B.4020809@voidspace.org.uk
Message-ID: <467EFB35.6080909@voidspace.org.uk>

Hello T,

Stumbled on this comparison of Pylons and Turbogears:

http://blog.ianbicking.org/turbogears-and-pylons.html

Just seem to emphasise how similar they are, but there you go...

Michael


From noah.gift at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 02:16:16 2007
From: noah.gift at gmail.com (Noah Gift)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 20:16:16 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] COmparison
In-Reply-To: <467EFB35.6080909@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <467EFB35.6080909@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <e91cc0270706241716y1c76dc2fyf062f638eec53231@mail.gmail.com>

I think they are getting more and more similar day by day which is great!
 Stay tuned!

On 6/24/07, Michael Foord <fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Hello T,
>
> Stumbled on this comparison of Pylons and Turbogears:
>
> http://blog.ianbicking.org/turbogears-and-pylons.html
>
> Just seem to emphasise how similar they are, but there you go...
>
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>



-- 
http://www.blog.noahgift.com
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From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 07:27:20 2007
From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:27:20 +1000
Subject: [python-advocacy] Lifting the readership of The Python Papers
Message-ID: <43c8685c0706252227u433c993fg3eeafffa2386cd20@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Tennessee Leeuwenburg, Editor-In-Chief of The Python Papers (
pythonpapers.org) here.

I have been pondering the reasons for the existence of The Python Papers. I
feel like we are reasonably successfully catering to multiple audiences. Our
next issue should further cement the philosophies and organisational model
for the journal, and I'm looking for new ground to cover going forward. In
this process, I have been talking to academics, software developers, user
groups and businesses. Where is the new ground, and what should The Python
Papers be doing in order to most help Python?

There is an ongoing need to continue to serve beginning and intermediate
Python programmers. Regular sections on coding practise and articles by
programmers on their systems help to service this need.

There is a need to meet the needs of scientists and researchers. While our
academic section is still finding its feet, it is also true that the
interest in this area is increasing both from the readership and from the
academic side. Within a couple of issues, I hope to have this cemented as
well as the technical side of the magazine.

One hope for The Python Papers is that it makes a difference to people. From
what I have read based on emails to the editorial list, this has been
accomplished on a small scale, which is more rewarding than you can imagine.
That said, I am not convinced those same people are best served simply by
more of the same. Without downplaying my own feelings about the value of
TPP, the content available from the Python Success Stories, Python 411, the
various blogs etc is more important again.

Nobody can seek to know every aspect of Python, be it technical, social or
organisational. It's just too big. That said, it seems like a good thing to
continue to pursue growth in both contributors and audiences.

I am trying to make sure that I am pursuing appropriate goals as
Editor-In-Chief. The jump in readership from our last issue was amazing -- a
real stepwise gain. It's possible that this will occur again, but there is a
risk of it plateauing as we start to approach our "natural" rate of
readership within traditional audiences.

Helping the growth of Python seems to me about reaching out to
nontraditional audiences, although the community itself should (IMO) always
remain the most important readership group. For this reason, I thought I
would send an email to the advocacy list to see what audiences people can
identify, and whether they are being reached or not.

Here's my list:

a) The Python Software Foundation
b) Established Python programmers
c) Beginning Python programmers
d) Non-Python programmers
e) Businesses who might consider using Python
f) Academic researchers
g) Academic students
h) School students
i) Other students, such as those reached via OLPC
j) Government organisations who might consider using Python
k) Popular opinion (i.e. being involved with culture and wider issues)
l) Social groups (i.e. OLPC) and public good organisations

Can anyone help me identify additional audiences and distribution channels?
Are there any needs that people can think of which TPP could help to meet?

Thanks,
-Tennessee
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From dorai at thodla.com  Tue Jun 26 07:38:16 2007
From: dorai at thodla.com (Dorai Thodla)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:08:16 +0530
Subject: [python-advocacy] Lifting the readership of The Python Papers
In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0706252227u433c993fg3eeafffa2386cd20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <43c8685c0706252227u433c993fg3eeafffa2386cd20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <603b7e560706252238jd85ed21r278eb1bb4894116@mail.gmail.com>

Here are a few more:

- Contact various Google and Yahoo Groups that act as virtual user groups
for Python
- Python Meetups

I would love to see some a collection of "Python Idioms". I am amazed at how
many new things I learn when I look at code written by Pythonistas.

Dorai Thodla
www.thodla.com


On 6/26/07, Tennessee Leeuwenburg <tleeuwenburg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Tennessee Leeuwenburg, Editor-In-Chief of The Python Papers (
> pythonpapers.org) here.
>
> I have been pondering the reasons for the existence of The Python Papers.
> I feel like we are reasonably successfully catering to multiple audiences.
> Our next issue should further cement the philosophies and organisational
> model for the journal, and I'm looking for new ground to cover going
> forward. In this process, I have been talking to academics, software
> developers, user groups and businesses. Where is the new ground, and what
> should The Python Papers be doing in order to most help Python?
>
> There is an ongoing need to continue to serve beginning and intermediate
> Python programmers. Regular sections on coding practise and articles by
> programmers on their systems help to service this need.
>
> There is a need to meet the needs of scientists and researchers. While our
> academic section is still finding its feet, it is also true that the
> interest in this area is increasing both from the readership and from the
> academic side. Within a couple of issues, I hope to have this cemented as
> well as the technical side of the magazine.
>
> One hope for The Python Papers is that it makes a difference to people.
> From what I have read based on emails to the editorial list, this has been
> accomplished on a small scale, which is more rewarding than you can imagine.
> That said, I am not convinced those same people are best served simply by
> more of the same. Without downplaying my own feelings about the value of
> TPP, the content available from the Python Success Stories, Python 411, the
> various blogs etc is more important again.
>
> Nobody can seek to know every aspect of Python, be it technical, social or
> organisational. It's just too big. That said, it seems like a good thing to
> continue to pursue growth in both contributors and audiences.
>
> I am trying to make sure that I am pursuing appropriate goals as
> Editor-In-Chief. The jump in readership from our last issue was amazing -- a
> real stepwise gain. It's possible that this will occur again, but there is a
> risk of it plateauing as we start to approach our "natural" rate of
> readership within traditional audiences.
>
> Helping the growth of Python seems to me about reaching out to
> nontraditional audiences, although the community itself should (IMO) always
> remain the most important readership group. For this reason, I thought I
> would send an email to the advocacy list to see what audiences people can
> identify, and whether they are being reached or not.
>
> Here's my list:
>
> a) The Python Software Foundation
> b) Established Python programmers
> c) Beginning Python programmers
> d) Non-Python programmers
> e) Businesses who might consider using Python
> f) Academic researchers
> g) Academic students
> h) School students
> i) Other students, such as those reached via OLPC
> j) Government organisations who might consider using Python
> k) Popular opinion (i.e. being involved with culture and wider issues)
> l) Social groups (i.e. OLPC) and public good organisations
>
> Can anyone help me identify additional audiences and distribution
> channels? Are there any needs that people can think of which TPP could help
> to meet?
>
> Thanks,
> -Tennessee
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>
>


-- 
Dorai Thodla
www.thodla.com
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From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 08:10:22 2007
From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:10:22 +1000
Subject: [python-advocacy] Lifting the readership of The Python Papers
In-Reply-To: <603b7e560706252238jd85ed21r278eb1bb4894116@mail.gmail.com>
References: <43c8685c0706252227u433c993fg3eeafffa2386cd20@mail.gmail.com>
	<603b7e560706252238jd85ed21r278eb1bb4894116@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43c8685c0706252310l6ef82342qa6ad2ecedfe34c73@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Dorai,

Thanks for your response. I wrote a couple of articles on Python Idioms in
previous issues if you are not aware of them -- one on the use of a leading
underscore to weakly indicate internal methods, and the other on the use of
design patterns in Python.

That said, I think expanding this list of idioms would be fantastic -- both
in terms of more in-depth articles and a summary of current idioms. Some are
covered by PEPs (indeed the use of the leading underscore is covered also in
PEP-8), but not everyone will be aware of these, and even if they are,
people may not seek them out.

Cheers,
-T

On 6/26/07, Dorai Thodla <dorai at thodla.com> wrote:
>
>
> Here are a few more:
>
> - Contact various Google and Yahoo Groups that act as virtual user groups
> for Python
> - Python Meetups
>
> I would love to see some a collection of "Python Idioms". I am amazed at
> how many new things I learn when I look at code written by Pythonistas.
>
> Dorai Thodla
> www.thodla.com
>
>
> On 6/26/07, Tennessee Leeuwenburg < tleeuwenburg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Tennessee Leeuwenburg, Editor-In-Chief of The Python Papers (
> > pythonpapers.org) here.
> >
> > I have been pondering the reasons for the existence of The Python
> > Papers. I feel like we are reasonably successfully catering to multiple
> > audiences. Our next issue should further cement the philosophies and
> > organisational model for the journal, and I'm looking for new ground to
> > cover going forward. In this process, I have been talking to academics,
> > software developers, user groups and businesses. Where is the new ground,
> > and what should The Python Papers be doing in order to most help Python?
> >
> > There is an ongoing need to continue to serve beginning and intermediate
> > Python programmers. Regular sections on coding practise and articles by
> > programmers on their systems help to service this need.
> >
> > There is a need to meet the needs of scientists and researchers. While
> > our academic section is still finding its feet, it is also true that the
> > interest in this area is increasing both from the readership and from the
> > academic side. Within a couple of issues, I hope to have this cemented as
> > well as the technical side of the magazine.
> >
> > One hope for The Python Papers is that it makes a difference to people.
> > From what I have read based on emails to the editorial list, this has been
> > accomplished on a small scale, which is more rewarding than you can imagine.
> > That said, I am not convinced those same people are best served simply by
> > more of the same. Without downplaying my own feelings about the value of
> > TPP, the content available from the Python Success Stories, Python 411, the
> > various blogs etc is more important again.
> >
> > Nobody can seek to know every aspect of Python, be it technical, social
> > or organisational. It's just too big. That said, it seems like a good thing
> > to continue to pursue growth in both contributors and audiences.
> >
> > I am trying to make sure that I am pursuing appropriate goals as
> > Editor-In-Chief. The jump in readership from our last issue was amazing -- a
> > real stepwise gain. It's possible that this will occur again, but there is a
> > risk of it plateauing as we start to approach our "natural" rate of
> > readership within traditional audiences.
> >
> > Helping the growth of Python seems to me about reaching out to
> > nontraditional audiences, although the community itself should (IMO) always
> > remain the most important readership group. For this reason, I thought I
> > would send an email to the advocacy list to see what audiences people can
> > identify, and whether they are being reached or not.
> >
> > Here's my list:
> >
> > a) The Python Software Foundation
> > b) Established Python programmers
> > c) Beginning Python programmers
> > d) Non-Python programmers
> > e) Businesses who might consider using Python
> > f) Academic researchers
> > g) Academic students
> > h) School students
> > i) Other students, such as those reached via OLPC
> > j) Government organisations who might consider using Python
> > k) Popular opinion (i.e. being involved with culture and wider issues)
> > l) Social groups (i.e. OLPC) and public good organisations
> >
> > Can anyone help me identify additional audiences and distribution
> > channels? Are there any needs that people can think of which TPP could help
> > to meet?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Tennessee
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocacy mailing list
> > Advocacy at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Dorai Thodla
> www.thodla.com
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From roy at panix.com  Tue Jun 26 15:21:41 2007
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:21:41 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Lifting the readership of The Python Papers
In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0706252227u433c993fg3eeafffa2386cd20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <43c8685c0706252227u433c993fg3eeafffa2386cd20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5F4AF319-2A19-4B87-B297-C38FD926BA50@panix.com>

On Jun 26, 2007, at 1:27 AM, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:

> e) Businesses who might consider using Python

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but I can see this getting divided  
into two parts:

e1) Businesses who might consider using Python for internal projects
e2) Software development companies who are considering building  
products based on Python

These really are different decisions.  The first is a much easier  
(and less risky) decision.  "We've got a job to do, what's the best  
tool to do that job with?"  It's easy to find small pilot projects  
where you can prove the value of a tool.    At the end of every  
quarter, it has historically taken X weeks to wrap up some job.  You  
do it in two days.  The ROI is immediately obvious and it's easy to  
get buy-in to try to use this new tool on other, bigger, jobs.

The second is has a bit more psychology involved.  "If we use this  
tool to produce our product, what will our customers think about the  
product?" This is a much harder question to answer because you  
outcome won't be known for 6-12 months from the time the decision is  
made, and by then you're committed.


--
roy at panix.com

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From jeff at taupro.com  Wed Jun 27 10:59:41 2007
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:59:41 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Organizing Python Representation at OSCON 2007
Message-ID: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com>

OSCON 2007 in Portland, Oregon from July 23-27 is fast approaching.  This is a 
professional conference that can give Python a lot of visibility in the IT 
world and draws a different crowd from our community-run conferences like  PyCon.

There looks to be a good set of talks on the Python track, with several 
positioned to promote the use of Python by telling its story:

   - Code Like a Pythonista: Idiomatic Python
   - SQLAlchemy: Taming ORM with Python
   - Super-sizing YouTube
   - How to Write a Killer Sugar Activity
   - Exploiting Multicore Capabilities from Python
   - Python 3000
   - Programming for Everybody: CP4E
   - Coding with Dynamic Confidence

There also is the opportunity to reach out by holding Python 
birds-of-a-feather gatherings.  The Python community is a friendly group and 
face-to-face contact is important to convey the human aspect of Python.  BoFs 
can be scheduled by visiting the OSCON page:

   http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/bof.html

I will not be attending this year, so we need one or more who are willing to 
step forward and loosely organize a bit.  Let's discuss this on the Python 
advocacy mailing list and make it happen this year.

   http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy

Jeff Rush
Python Advocacy Coordinator

From goodger at python.org  Wed Jun 27 15:16:45 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:16:45 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Organizing Python Representation at OSCON 2007
In-Reply-To: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com>
References: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <4335d2c40706270616p4009e145s7fb890ba55f3c6ba@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/07, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:
> I will not be attending this year, so we need one or more who are
> willing to step forward and loosely organize a bit.  Let's discuss
> this on the Python advocacy mailing list and make it happen this
> year.

I will be there (invited to reprise my "Idiomatic Python" tutorial
from PyCon), and I'm willing to help with a BoF.  But I don't know how
it should be aimed (newbies, intermediate, experienced, core
hackers?).

The BoF proposal submission has the following fields.  Here are my
proposed answers:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

* Title of proposed BoF*:

Python Birds of a Feather

* Describe the people who would be interested in attending this BoF:

All Python users, those new to Python, and people considering Python.

* Which evenings(s) are you available to host your BoF?

Any (I arrive Sunday, leave late Friday).

* Brief description of this BoF Maximum 50 words, about 7 lines.*

The Python BoF is an opportunity for everyone (beginning,
intermediate, and advanced Python programmers, people considering
Python, and the curious), to get together, meet and ask questions of
experienced Pythonistas, exchange ideas, and experience the friendly
and open Python community first-hand.

* Full description of this BoF Maximum 250 words, about 35 lines.*

(The "brief description" above plus:)

There is no set agenda.  Discussions will go wherever attendees take
them.  Experienced Python programmers are encouraged to attend!

* Anything else we should know about your proposal?

?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Anything to add or change?  Feedback is welcome.

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jun 27 17:44:11 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:44:11 -0700
Subject: [python-advocacy] Organizing Python Representation at OSCON 2007
In-Reply-To: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com>
References: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <20070627154411.GA20046@panix.com>

On Wed, Jun 27, 2007, Jeff Rush wrote:
>
> I will not be attending this year, so we need one or more who are willing to 
> step forward and loosely organize a bit.  Let's discuss this on the Python 
> advocacy mailing list and make it happen this year.
> 
>    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy

What's wrong with discussing this on oscon at python.org?  Or should I just
shut down that list?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha

From goodger at python.org  Wed Jun 27 17:56:06 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:56:06 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Organizing Python Representation at OSCON 2007
In-Reply-To: <20070627154411.GA20046@panix.com>
References: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com> <20070627154411.GA20046@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4335d2c40706270856l3af2654dle7a54a7b2bf16003@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> What's wrong with discussing this on oscon at python.org?

I, for one, didn't know it existed.

> Or should I just shut down that list?

Perhaps.  It hasn't been used in 2 years, and even then it wasn't used much.
"OSCON" threads on python-list and python-dev would suffice.

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jun 27 23:09:08 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:09:08 -0700
Subject: [python-advocacy] Organizing Python Representation at OSCON 2007
In-Reply-To: <4335d2c40706270856l3af2654dle7a54a7b2bf16003@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com> <20070627154411.GA20046@panix.com>
	<4335d2c40706270856l3af2654dle7a54a7b2bf16003@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070627210908.GA8573@panix.com>

On Wed, Jun 27, 2007, David Goodger wrote:
> On 6/27/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>>
>>What's wrong with discussing this on oscon at python.org?  Or should I
>>just shut down that list?
>
> Perhaps.  It hasn't been used in 2 years, and even then it wasn't used
> much.  "OSCON" threads on python-list and python-dev would suffice.

Maybe, but many people don't want to read those high-traffic lists, even
filtered; that's why I created the list in the first place.  OSCON
interest crosses the boundaries of several lists (also including the
advocacy, psf-members, and pycon lists), and I think that people really
don't want to deal with cross-posted traffic.

The advocacy list is probably as good a place as any for the traffic, it
didn't exist when I created the oscon list.  Unless Jeff says he wants to
move to the oscon list, I guess I'll kill it.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha

From noah.gift at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 02:28:04 2007
From: noah.gift at gmail.com (Noah Gift)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:28:04 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] collaboration
Message-ID: <e91cc0270706271728o6f2f3f5bic001dac86924eed2@mail.gmail.com>

FYI,
http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/06/python_web_application_framewo.html
working together would more be awesome for advocacy..
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From mark.mchristensen at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 00:24:33 2007
From: mark.mchristensen at gmail.com (Mark Ramm)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:24:33 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Organizing Python Representation at OSCON 2007
In-Reply-To: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com>
References: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <ec2d68db0706271524o39c535a5u5b0330241dc5803b@mail.gmail.com>

I'm hoping to be able to do a few python related interviews/discussion
groups for a Python  podcasting project I'm working on, and I'm doing
a tutorial on python web programming and WSGI.

I'd also be willing to help do whatever needs doing for python advocacy.

--Mark Ramm

On 6/27/07, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:
> OSCON 2007 in Portland, Oregon from July 23-27 is fast approaching.  This is a
> professional conference that can give Python a lot of visibility in the IT
> world and draws a different crowd from our community-run conferences like  PyCon.
>
> There looks to be a good set of talks on the Python track, with several
> positioned to promote the use of Python by telling its story:
>
>    - Code Like a Pythonista: Idiomatic Python
>    - SQLAlchemy: Taming ORM with Python
>    - Super-sizing YouTube
>    - How to Write a Killer Sugar Activity
>    - Exploiting Multicore Capabilities from Python
>    - Python 3000
>    - Programming for Everybody: CP4E
>    - Coding with Dynamic Confidence
>
> There also is the opportunity to reach out by holding Python
> birds-of-a-feather gatherings.  The Python community is a friendly group and
> face-to-face contact is important to convey the human aspect of Python.  BoFs
> can be scheduled by visiting the OSCON page:
>
>    http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/bof.html
>
> I will not be attending this year, so we need one or more who are willing to
> step forward and loosely organize a bit.  Let's discuss this on the Python
> advocacy mailing list and make it happen this year.
>
>    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>
> Jeff Rush
> Python Advocacy Coordinator
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>


-- 
Mark Ramm-Christensen
email: mark at compoundthinking dot com
blog: www.compoundthinking.com/blog

From goodger at python.org  Thu Jun 28 15:34:58 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:34:58 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Organizing Python Representation at OSCON 2007
In-Reply-To: <4335d2c40706270616p4009e145s7fb890ba55f3c6ba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com>
	<4335d2c40706270616p4009e145s7fb890ba55f3c6ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4335d2c40706280634x3a6a0e44s4f1f7e7f34495167@mail.gmail.com>

I'll wait until this afternoon (4 hours from now), then I'm going to
go ahead and submit the BoF proposal as outlined below.

-- DG

On 6/27/07, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
> On 6/27/07, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:
> > I will not be attending this year, so we need one or more who are
> > willing to step forward and loosely organize a bit.  Let's discuss
> > this on the Python advocacy mailing list and make it happen this
> > year.
>
> I will be there (invited to reprise my "Idiomatic Python" tutorial
> from PyCon), and I'm willing to help with a BoF.  But I don't know how
> it should be aimed (newbies, intermediate, experienced, core
> hackers?).
>
> The BoF proposal submission has the following fields.  Here are my
> proposed answers:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> * Title of proposed BoF*:
>
> Python Birds of a Feather
>
> * Describe the people who would be interested in attending this BoF:
>
> All Python users, those new to Python, and people considering Python.
>
> * Which evenings(s) are you available to host your BoF?
>
> Any (I arrive Sunday, leave late Friday).
>
> * Brief description of this BoF Maximum 50 words, about 7 lines.*
>
> The Python BoF is an opportunity for everyone (beginning,
> intermediate, and advanced Python programmers, people considering
> Python, and the curious), to get together, meet and ask questions of
> experienced Pythonistas, exchange ideas, and experience the friendly
> and open Python community first-hand.
>
> * Full description of this BoF Maximum 250 words, about 35 lines.*
>
> (The "brief description" above plus:)
>
> There is no set agenda.  Discussions will go wherever attendees take
> them.  Experienced Python programmers are encouraged to attend!
>
> * Anything else we should know about your proposal?
>
> ?
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Anything to add or change?  Feedback is welcome.

From m_tayseer82 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 28 18:58:29 2007
From: m_tayseer82 at yahoo.com (Mohammad Tayseer)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:58:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [python-advocacy] Silverkey demo day
Message-ID: <643504.12839.qm@web31109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Dear Pythoneers

Silverkey is going to hold its second demo day on 7/7/2007 in Cairo, Egypt. You can see the demo day agenda here. We are going to make a discussion about static vs. dynamic languages, using C# and Python as examples. I'm going to represent Python side.

This is going to be the first session about Python in Egypt. I hope we can meet other programmers who are interested in Python.

If you are in Egypt, I will be happy to meet you there.



Mohammad Tayseer
http://spellcoder.com/blogs/tayseer

       
---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
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From Cameron at phaseit.net  Thu Jun 28 18:55:53 2007
From: Cameron at phaseit.net (Cameron Laird)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:55:53 +0000
Subject: [python-advocacy] Publishing opportunity:  OLPC and so on
Message-ID: <20070628165553.GA19545@lairds.us>

I am aware of what might be a pleasant opportunity to write a Python
book aimed at the education and one-laptop-per-human crowds.  This
calls for a voice more like David Pogue or Kathy Sierra, rather than
those of us who truly relish distinguishing "binding a name" from
"assigning a variable".

'Twould be natural to ask the EDU or OLPC people, but I don't keep
up with them at all, in contrast to the feeble attempts I make to 
stay current with advocacy.

Conclusion:  e-mail me privately if you are or know of a prospective
(co-)author.

From goodger at python.org  Fri Jun 29 19:38:24 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:38:24 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Fwd: OSCON BoF Proposal: Python Birds of a Feather
In-Reply-To: <39F9E840-3C56-4C04-8085-B2FC4CE00850@oreilly.com>
References: <39F9E840-3C56-4C04-8085-B2FC4CE00850@oreilly.com>
Message-ID: <4335d2c40706291038l1f96948fxa034557cacaded80@mail.gmail.com>

This just arrived:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shirley Bailes <shirley at oreilly.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2007 12:58 PM
Subject: OSCON BoF Proposal: Python Birds of a Feather
To: goodger at python.org

Hello,

Your submission for the following BoF has been accepted and confirmed:

Python Birds of a Feather, scheduled for Wednesday, July 25 from
8:30-9:30pm in Room D139/140.

All rooms will have internet access provided. Please note that
audio/visual equipment, including projection equipment, will not be
available for BoF sessions. If you require any audio/visual equipment,
you may contact johnny at 2goodcompany.com, the official convention
audio/visual producer, for rental rates.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks!

Shirley Bailes
Conferences Operations Associate
O'Reilly Media, Inc.
shirley at oreilly.com
(707)827-7211

From goodger at python.org  Fri Jun 29 20:04:57 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:04:57 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Organizing Python Representation at OSCON 2007
In-Reply-To: <4335d2c40706280634x3a6a0e44s4f1f7e7f34495167@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468226FD.50400@taupro.com>
	<4335d2c40706270616p4009e145s7fb890ba55f3c6ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706280634x3a6a0e44s4f1f7e7f34495167@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4335d2c40706291104m297dfc4etc382d2e852982e39@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the Python BoF URL:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/14794

And the URL for the list of OSCON BoFs:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/bof.html

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>